Author Topic: Episode 296  (Read 29983 times)

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Offline Ramen4ever

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2008, 04:57:06 AM »
Something just occurred to me. If Ganishka's death does significantly accelerate the merging of the worlds and a giant portal to the abyss is opened,

Uh.. I don't think Ganishka's death is accelerating the merging. It's better described as the focal point. He directly linked with the astral world by entering his Daka machine. His size portrays the enormous amount of evil energy he contains within his body. When Griffith bursts his bubble, the astral energy or whatever term you want to call it, will be unleashed onto the world. At which point the merging will be complete. So his death will actually be the cause, not an acceleration.

Also I doubt there will be a distinct portal. Think of it more as two circles overlapping each other. One circle representing the physical world and the other representing the astral or spirit world. If the two circles barely touch there will only be one or a few ways for the two worlds to interact. The most likely interaction occurring through death and if the Idea of Evil is any indication maybe even birth. Now if the two circles are partially overlapping, a third portion is created where the physical and the astral can interact semi regularly. Obviously this would be the interstice, where the creatures of the astral world can enter the physical world. However if I remember correctly, the creatures can only enter at certain focal points, like the Qliphoth or other places where the spirits gather. Apostles are excluded from this entire process because they go through a ceremony involving a sacrifice. Now finally if the two circles fully overlap, the border between the two planes of existence completely cease to exist.

If this description is actually valid, there could be severe consequences. The God hand members would actually exist in the real world. Elfhelm would be fully accessible to everyone. Elfs would no longer be selectively invisible, everyone would be able to see them. Spirits might start manifesting during the day. Needless to say the laws of the world would be turned upside down.

Also this description is very simplified. The real formula is most likely a lot more complicated.

wouldn't the yobimizu no tsurugi be able to stop it? If there is any hope of the SK playing a role. I would imagine that would be related. I still highly doubt that he'll appear.

Doubtful to the point were I wouldn't even consider it a possibility. The Skullknight would have to cut a hole between the astral and physical worlds and somehow take all of Ganishka back to the astral world. True Skullknight practically exists for the reason of interfering with the God hand but I doubt he could actually do something to stop this event from occurring. Besides wouldn't the merging make his task easier to accomplish? Void might finally be vulnerable.  :SK:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 02:47:05 PM by Ramen4ever »

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #126 on: May 26, 2008, 07:38:54 AM »
I can certainly see why the episode release took longer. I wonder how long it takes to put all that detail into Ganishka?
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #127 on: May 26, 2008, 02:19:08 PM »
a giant portal to the abyss is opened, wouldn't the yobimizu no tsurugi be able to stop it?

I don't think it'll take the form of a "giant portal" like in Stargate.

Uh.. I don't think Ganishka's death is accelerating the merging. It's better described as the vocal point. [...] At which point the merging will be complete. So his death will actually be the cause, not an acceleration.

You're making way too many assumptions here. And I take it you meant focal point? Otherwise it doesn't make sense (actually I'm not sure it does in any case). Anyway, the worlds had already started to merge before Ganishka did anything, as it was stated in the manga. Remember the trolls that invaded Enoch and the group's venture inside the Qliphoth? That was only made possible because the merging process had started. And as for whether or not the merging will be complete right after the ongoing events, or if it'll ever be truly complete, it's still unknown.

Think of it more as two circles overlapping each other. One circle representing the physical world and the other representing the astral or spirit world. If the two circles barely touch there will only be one or a few ways for the two worlds to interact. The most likely interaction occurring through death and if the Idea of Evil is any indication maybe even birth.

I'm not sure that's a good example in this case to be honest, as the worlds are always connected in many ways, whether people can perceive it or not. Humans have souls/spirits and not just corporeal bodies, some people/beings are in the Interstice, places in the world where a lot of murders occurred have a residual evil in them, etc. It's just more complicated than what you make it out to be, and I think your explanation is likely to mislead people about the way the world functions. Also, if you're taking the Idea of Evil's subtle meddling into account, then it's every moment before birth, during all of a person's life and after the death of that person that should be counted as an interaction. As you can see, it's not really defining.

Now if the two circles are partially overlapping, a third portion is created where the physical and the astral can interact semi regularly. Obviously this would be the interstice, where the creatures of the astral world can enter the physical world. However if I remember correctly, the creatures can only enter at certain vocal points, like the Qliphoth or other places where the spirits gather.

Not at all, I don't know what are you talking about. It all sounds pretty confusing to be honest. And what are "vocal" points? Anyway, I'm afraid you don't really understand what the Interstice is. It's the layer of the astral world that is the closest to the corporeal one. It can't easily be defined as a place per se (other than the boundary between 2 worlds), but rather as a condition, in that someone or something is in the Interstice or not. By being in there, you exist simultaneously in the corporeal and the astral worlds, and your physical self can interact with astral phenomenons or beings (of course this is limited to the "surface" of the astral world, the shallow parts). For example, Guts will always be in the Interstice no matter in what part of the world he is. It's like he has access to things that remain invisible and impalpable to normal people. Now this can affect physical locations too, and what that means is that those places have a strong connexion to the astral world (e.g. Flora's spirit tree), but it's still a "condition" of some sort (that of being in the astral world as well as in the corporeal one). You don't "enter" the corporeal world from the Interstice, because when you are in the Interstice you already are in the corporeal world and can interact with it even while being an astral being, and vice versa. See the elves for example. As for the Qliphoth, it might very well have been situated deeper within the astral world than the Interstice. It became connected to the corporeal world as a result of the merging the worlds are undergoing.

Apostles are excluded from this entire process because they go through a ceremony involving a sacrifice.

Apostles aren't excluded from anything. They're in the Interstice, but maybe deeper within it than branded people. The transmutation they undergo is very specific compared to the rest of the world (their spirit/soul is infused with some evil power that affects their body in the physical world), but it all still obeys the same rules.

The God hand members would actually exist in the real world.

Or at least it would be easier for them to manifest their power there (and to a greater extent). Might also be the case for the spirits Schierke calls to help her, we'll see.

Elfhelm would be fully accessible to everyone.

Except for the fact that it's on a secluded island, which so far has been the main reason cited for its inaccessibility. And besides we don't even know what kind of protection it possesses, maybe (probably?) it also prevents certain kinds of astral creatures (evil) to enter it. So I'm not sure it's a big deal. Humans could possibly reach it more easily though.

Elfs would no longer be selectively invisible, everyone would be able to see them.

That's already the case. Elves can't choose to be invisible or not, rather it's some humans that live in big agglomerations and/or that are too indoctrinated who block them out of their minds by simply refusing to believe that they exist (and not definitively either, as we've seen Farnese remembering Puck's presence in retrospect). However it doesn't prevent the elves (or other astral creatures) from interacting with those people, which has led to many humorous situations in the past. Obviously this has its limits anyway, as any prolonged or violent/pronounced interaction will force someone to acknowledge what's happening (or maybe they'd just go mad in the more extreme cases, who knows).

Spirits might start manifesting during the day.

Possibly, but that isn't sure at all. What would happen is that the specters that have been harassing Guts at night would now be able to attain anybody living in the world, making normal people's nights into living nightmares. But I don't think their vulnerability to the light of day would necessarily be altered.

Just imagine people having to run at home as the sun goes down, with their houses covered with protective symbols/trinkets, every room kept as brightly lit as possible, while dark creatures stalk the streets and clang on doors and windows. Now this is something I'd call the Age of Darkness. :beast: And then there'd be trolls, ogres, kelpies and many other astral creatures that pose a threat to humans that would be potentially roaming the land.

Offline Ramen4ever

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #128 on: May 26, 2008, 02:48:33 PM »
Yes I ment focal points. >_<

Duststorm

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2008, 05:06:02 PM »
Wow this episode was rather epic.

Though I do wonder if Ganishka ego stayed intact after leaving the abyss. I doubt he is fully sane if he calling is own men "insects" and crushing them so they blossom as "red flowers".

Offline HITReza

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #130 on: May 26, 2008, 07:52:03 PM »
wow,  just read the episode ... this is going to be a awesome battle  :guts:

great job on this episode! I cannot wait for 297 to come out :)


Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #131 on: May 27, 2008, 04:24:32 AM »
Wow this episode was rather epic.

Though I do wonder if Ganishka ego stayed intact after leaving the abyss. I doubt he is fully sane if he calling is own men "insects" and crushing them so they blossom as "red flowers".

Well given how tall he is now, the perspective changes a bit. That and he's ascended to a higher level, so his outlook has probably changed as well. 
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #132 on: May 27, 2008, 07:49:13 AM »
Well given how tall he is now, the perspective changes a bit. That and he's ascended to a higher level, so his outlook has probably changed as well.

Duststorm's question is legitimate because of the change Ganishka underwent. I'm not sure he's really ascended to a higher level of consciousness as much as he's filled himself with so much power that his ego and intellect have been diluted or damaged in the process. This shows in his dialogue, because beyond his new size and perspective of the world, he's obviously struggling with simple concepts (like not really realizing he's fucking huge) and even has trouble to speak. I find it logical all in all: it seems normal that he can't handle such an enormous power.

Offline vlad

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #133 on: May 27, 2008, 07:54:15 AM »
Guys, I think it's really worth thinking about. Can a Beherit eat? :isidro:
This is really interesting, at first I thought it to be just a figure of speech or something but since you pointed it out I guess that it's not. I suppose that Beherits don't need food but if they can eat could Puck be on the way of "domesticating" one  :beast:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #134 on: May 27, 2008, 08:15:34 AM »
This is really interesting, at first I thought it to be just a figure of speech or something but since you pointed it out I guess that it's not. I suppose that Beherits don't need food but if they can eat could Puck be on the way of "domesticating" one  :beast:

For all we know maybe it can't even work properly anymore. :P I mean, check out the bad company the little guy's had for the last few years. :guts: Now if Puck's actually been feeding it everyday, who knows how it's affected it? :void:

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Episode 296
« Reply #135 on: May 27, 2008, 05:05:15 PM »
Duststorm's question is legitimate because of the change Ganishka underwent. I'm not sure he's really ascended to a higher level of consciousness as much as he's filled himself with so much power that his ego and intellect have been diluted or damaged in the process. This shows in his dialogue, because beyond his new size and perspective of the world, he's obviously struggling with simple concepts (like not really realizing he's fucking huge) and even has trouble to speak. I find it logical all in all: it seems normal that he can't handle such an enormous power.

That's true, disoriented would be a good way of putting it, albeit to the extreme. I guess calling it a warping (my own words) of his sanity just didn't ring right.  By ascending I meant that he went through some sort of spiritual "evolution" (perhaps de-evolution in some ways as well), not necessarily that he became more enlightened or omnipotent. He obviously realized that defeating Griffith in his apostle form was futile, so he had to up the ante. Perhaps he got more than he bargained for and the result is this more brawn less brain scenario.  Or it's a stint of disorientation while he gets accustomed to the new form.

Either way it's pretty cool.

Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline umop_3pisdn

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2008, 06:15:29 AM »
That's true, disoriented would be a good way of putting it, albeit to the extreme. I guess calling it a warping (my own words) of his sanity just didn't ring right.  By ascending I meant that he went through some sort of spiritual "evolution" (perhaps de-evolution in some ways as well), not necessarily that he became more enlightened or omnipotent. He obviously realized that defeating Griffith in his apostle form was futile, so he had to up the ante. Perhaps he got more than he bargained for and the result is this more brawn less brain scenario.  Or it's a stint of disorientation while he gets accustomed to the new form.

Either way it's pretty cool.



I think it's mostly because the method Ganishka used is more or less an experiment without much precedent, and thus there's a lot of room still to discover unwanted side effects.  We don't really understand how infusing beings with the darker energies of the astral world works, and I don't think Ganishka understands much of the deeper nuances, either.  I'm sure he does to an extent, what with creating the Daka, but there's a large difference in conducting these experiments on test subjects, and conducting them on yourself.  With the Daka he's more of an outside observer, it's harder to know, personally, what sort of psychological/personality change it would cause.  Also, Ganishka's aims with the Daka and his self transformation were pretty utilitarian, not necessarily the most elegant or perfect solution, but an effective/powerful one. Also, Ganishka's self transformation is on a higher scale and seems to be done out of desparation.  Usually things done out of desparation have unforeseen consequences because a person isn't thinking rationally about what they're doing..

The power in the astral world seems to carry conscious elements (ie:  lighter/darker natures).  It hasn't been shown to be "conscious", but it does seem to carry some elements or aspects of consciousness (though perhaps loosely), and Ganishka seems to have absorbed more than he can handle.  I think it must naturally dilute his ego/individuality.  With the Apostles this would be a guided transformation, there would be more of a "science" to it, so the ego remains more or less intact.  But Ganishka's transformation is less guided or "natural", so it makes sense it would be less stable or have undesired side effects.  This energy is in a more unadulterated form (I took it to mean he sort of sucked up some of the astral world without necessarily "guiding" it to take on a desirable form/structure.  So instead, it still likely wishes to abide to it's own natural principles/laws, rather than Ganishka's will.)  These principles would likely be separate from Ganishka's aims, or likely any notion purpose/intent, or "sanity"... and so to make it his own Ganishka would probably have to willfully harness or master it, so as to truly integrate it into himself to keep his will intact despite the overwhelming nature of this new power that is beyond himself.  There's probably a limit to how much a person can safely "digest"/integrate into their being without compromising themselves.  Crossing this point could hypothetically cause one's personality to unravel. 

Basically, one's consciousness can be directed/controlled by the self, however "nature" just does as it does according to it's own (pre-determined?) principles.  In this case, "nature" would be the tendencies or nature of the astral world.  Ganishka can try and digest/reconstitute this power into a form that is more usable for himself, but in it's raw form it competes for "independence"/ to have it's own way within Ganishka, thus damaging the integrity or whole-ness of his personality or sanity?

So, basically, I think his sanity/self is "dissolving", more than it is "warping". 

I'm not sure if that answers anything, or even sheds any new light on the situation (maybe someone already said something similar, though in much fewer words...) but that was sort of how I understood it.  The astral world is vast beyond human imagining.  If a person tried to artlessly integrate a chunk of it into themselves, I think it makes sense that they'd lose a part of themselves in the process.  That is, unless they have entities like the Idea to guide such a transformation in a "desirable" way.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 06:40:09 AM by umop_3pisdn »

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Episode 296
« Reply #137 on: June 09, 2008, 06:53:20 PM »
New episode on the horizon!!