Idea's Ultimate Goal

With respect to the debatable canon of "God of the Abyss," lately I've been contemplating Idea's ultimate goal... and I think I'm prepared enough to post my hypothesis. Then I'll eagerly await your collective thoughts.

First, let me state that in large part, the basis of my prediction lies on one statement - by Idea - "I am the God that man created."

Now, if you're a person of faith, you'll disagree, but all the mythologies of the world - the real one, not the Berserk one - were also created by man. And in the majority of these are contained some reason for human suffering. As Idea says, "humans desired a reason for their suffering." Original Sin, the treachery of Loki, or simply the conflict between the Olympic powers are all examples of this.

Many of these mytholgies also include an element of hope - the end of suffering. The return of Christ, Ragnarok - the promise of a better world.

Now, if Idea was created by man, perhaps, like the mythologies of our own world, his end was also imagined. And perhaps his manipulation of Causality serves to ultimately create the conditions for his own demise.

Granted, I have no idea how a God plans his death... And I'll admit my assertions are flimsy... But has anyone else surmised this?

einherjar said:

With respect to the debatable canon of "God of the Abyss,"

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While some elements in episode 83 may not be canon anymore, keep in mind that many things concerning the Idea of Evil still are.

einherjar said:

First, let me state that in large part, the basis of my prediction lies on one statement - by Idea - "I am the God that man created."

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For example, this is definitely canon, as Void also states it during the Occultation ceremony.

einherjar said:

Now, if you're a person of faith, you'll disagree, but all the mythologies of the world - the real one, not the Berserk one - were also created by man.

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There's a major difference here though. The Idea of Evil isn't a religion or a myth, it's an actual being. And it was created out of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, most likely without people realizing it. I don't think it's really pertinent to compare the supernatural events of a fantasy world with our real world's organized cults.

einherjar said:

Now, if Idea was created by man, perhaps, like the mythologies of our own world, his end was also imagined. And perhaps his manipulation of Causality serves to ultimately create the conditions for his own demise.

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See what I said above. The Idea of Evil isn't part of a bigger story imagined by a group of people. As far as we know it was simply created unconsciously to provide reasons for human misery (pain, death, sadness, the whims of fortune, etc.), not to end it. And it is, after all, the Idea of Evil. The darkness that dwells in every human heart. Of course, we have no way of understanding this entity at the moment, and most of what we know about it is not truly reliable, so it's hard to be completely categorical. Yet so far, it doesn't look like it's benevolent in the least. Each member of the God Hand and each apostle can "do as (s)he wants" in theory, but in actuality they're all pretty much evil. The general evilness of it all is even commented on by characters in the manga that act as neutral observers (like Puck in volume 3).

I really wish I had something in the source and not philosophical with which to defend my point, I really do...

Aazealh said:

While some elements in episode 83 may not be canon anymore, keep in mind that many things concerning the Idea of Evil still are.

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That's good to know...

Aazealh said:

There's a major difference here though. The Idea of Evil isn't a religion or a myth, it's an actual being. And it was created out of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, most likely without people realizing it. I don't think it's really pertinent to compare the supernatural events of a fantasy world with our real world's organized cults.

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I guess that depends on how our own world functions with respect to deities. If belief, conscious or subconscious, can will a supreme being into existence in this world, then it's exactly pertinent. But, none of us have any way of knowing that.

Aazealh said:

See what I said above. The Idea of Evil isn't part of a bigger story imagined by a group of people. As far as we know it was simply created unconsciously to provide reasons for human misery (pain, death, sadness, the whims of fortune, etc.), not to end it.

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See what I said above. Conscious or subconscious is immaterial. If belief and desire have the power to create an actual being, then that desire may also have the power to undo the creation.

Aazealh said:

And it is, after all, the Idea of Evil. The darkness that dwells in every human heart. Of course, we have no way of understanding this entity at the moment, and most of what we know about it is not truly reliable, so it's hard to be completely categorical. Yet so far, it doesn't look like it's benevolent in the least.

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This may seem like mere semantics, but being the "Idea of Evil" is not the same as the "Incarnation of Evil." If there were an entity called the "Idea of Twinkies," it wouldn't need to be a Twinkie, it would just represent mankind's desire for Twinkies. I think it's more fair to consider Idea in the same position as the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," in Eden. The tree was neither good nor evil, but eating of its fruit caused Adam and Eve to recognize the two as concepts.

Aazealh said:

Each member of the God Hand and each apostle can "do as (s)he wants" in theory, but in actuality they're all pretty much evil.

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"Absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton
You give select humans power greater than that of other humans, and tell them to "do as [they] will." In the absence of retribution, most will act in a self-serving manner, indulging themselves in Wrath, Gluttony, Lust... The root of evil is this self-service, exemplified and amplified by the Sacrifice. And the reason there are no altruistic Godhand or apostles (That we have seen) is because those persons would not choose to serve themselves through the Sacrifice.
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... As you said, however, we really don't know enough about Idea as an entity to make definitive statements about its nature. On the other hand, I do enjoy these sort of discussions...

einherjar said:

I guess that depends on how our own world functions with respect to deities. If belief, conscious or subconscious, can will a supreme being into existence in this world, then it's exactly pertinent. But, none of us have any way of knowing that.

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We might as well assume it's not the case and that it isn't pertinent, really. You were talking about myths in the first place, and now you're switching stances for the sake of arguing and it's just not going to lead us anywhere.

einherjar said:

See what I said above. Conscious or subconscious is immaterial.

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I'm afraid it's what you said above that is immaterial. Whether the creation of the Idea of Evil was conscious or unconscious does matter a lot, I assure you.

einherjar said:

If belief and desire have the power to create an actual being, then that desire may also have the power to undo the creation.

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Why are you talking about belief here? It was never mentioned as having a role in the Idea of Evil's creation. It was born from the dark side of the ocean that represents humanity's collective consciousness, because it's the dark emotions (despair, sadness, pain, fear, etc.) that prompted people to seek reasons for events that transcended their knowledge. They desired reasons and a God was born to provide them.

Now, that's where it does matter whether it was conscious or not. Because "dark feelings" and the drive to find reasons for unexplainable things will always be there in the back of people's heads even in a paradisiac world, and are not limited to people dying in wars or women being raped. Think wide (greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, fear, anger, but also sorrow, etc.). Not only that, but people aren't going to all unite around the world and strongly wish there was no evil in the world or anything like that. Lastly, even if humanity as a whole had suddenly no desire for reasons anymore, nothing proves it would incapacitate the Idea of Evil. That desire only triggered the coming to sapience of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, nothing more. To quote the Idea of Evil itself, It is "the darkness that dwells in every human heart."

einherjar said:

This may seem like mere semantics, but being the "Idea of Evil" is not the same as the "Incarnation of Evil."

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Actually you're wrong. We're talking of Platonic idealism here, in which the "Idea of Evil" is the concept of evil itself, its ultimate, flawless, ideal embodiment. Futhermore, the kanji for the word means "source" or "origin" in Japanese, as in the "Source/Origin of Evil".

einherjar said:

If there were an entity called the "Idea of Twinkies," it wouldn't need to be a Twinkie, it would just represent mankind's desire for Twinkies. I think it's more fair to consider Idea in the same position as the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," in Eden.

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No, that's incorrect.

einherjar said:

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely." - Lord Acton
You give select humans power greater than that of other humans, and tell them to "do as [they] will." In the absence of retribution, most will act in a self-serving manner, indulging themselves in Wrath, Gluttony, Lust...

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Yes, but I'm afraid it goes farther than that here. At various points in the manga it is clearly stated that they are inherently evil. Take Ganishka's speech to the Demon Soldiers in episode 234, for example: "Undersized creatures, getting overconfident with the small amount of evil you received into your body."

einherjar said:

As you said, however, we really don't know enough about Idea as an entity to make definitive statements about its nature. On the other hand, I do enjoy these sort of discussions...

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Well I enjoy discussing too, but not when people are bending backwards to try to prove a point that goes against what's shown in the story.

Nothing that the Idea of Evil has been involved in would lead one to believe its "ultimate goal" is to end human suffering. Hell, it is foreshadowed that Griffith's ascension to the throne will herald an age of darkness for mankind - the opposite of what it is that you have suggested.

Judging by the seeds sewn by causality, I would suggest that the Idea of Evil's "ultimate goal" is only to perpetuate - and perhaps even expand - its own existence. If humanity were to stop suffering they would no longer need a reason for their suffering, and thus would no longer need the Idea of Evil.
At least, that is what I have come to as a result of my own perception of the Berserk universe. I had never thought of it before seeing this topic, though; so it isn't as if this were a long-considered theory of mine.

nfries88 said:

Judging by the seeds sewn by causality, I would suggest that the Idea of Evil's "ultimate goal" is only to perpetuate - and perhaps even expand - its own existence. If humanity were to stop suffering they would no longer need a reason for their suffering, and thus would no longer need the Idea of Evil.

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You also have to take into account the fact that the Idea of Evil is intrinsically linked to the evil in every human being. The suffering of some is perpetuated by the evil of others, it's a never-ending cycle.

Aazealh said:

You also have to take into account the fact that the Idea of Evil is intrinsically linked to the evil in every human being. The suffering of some is perpetuated by the evil of others, it's a never-ending cycle.

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This is true, humans must have been suffering before the Idea of Evil in order for it to have been created.

nfries88 said:

This is true, humans must have been suffering before the Idea of Evil in order for it to have been created.

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I've noticed that whenever the Idea of Evil is mentioned, someone brings up when it was born or how long it has existed. I think the Idea of Evil is as old as humanity. Since Neanderthals first had time to look at the stars and wonder about their place in this world. It was born from inherent human nature. At the latest, I think the Idea was at least formed when human populations grew large enough that the will of society could have an impact on the astral world.

Aazealh said:

There's a major difference here though. The Idea of Evil isn't a religion or a myth, it's an actual being. And it was created out of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, most likely without people realizing it. I don't think it's really pertinent to compare the supernatural events of a fantasy world with our real world's organized cults.

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OT: Just wanted to reference this post, as today I printed out sk.net's transcript of episode 83 and handed it to the assistant in my philosophy class. Since we're talking about Aquinas' writings on God, the "Problem Of Evil" came up which reminded me of Idea. I'm waiting to see what my philosophy teacher thinks of Miura-san's take on God.

As for an ontopic post: no idea. But I'm sure the Idea is as old as humanity for it to have manipulated things so long. Even though 83 has been taken out, a lot of things are still canon as Aaz pointed out.

The only way to end human suffering would be for all beings capable of evil to be wiped out. But this might cause the Idea of Evil to vanish. If Griffith is going to usher in a dark age then evil will most likely increase rapidly and perhaps strengthen the Idea of Evil in the process.

KazigluBey said:

The only way to end human suffering would be for all beings capable of evil to be wiped out.

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Wiping out all beings capable of evil? That's easy.

Kill all humans.

Exactly my point.

KazigluBey said:

Exactly my point.

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Well, that's definitely a misanthropic way to view things, and its also a little impractical don't you think?

Guts' intestines said:

Well, that's definitely a misanthropic way to view things, and its also a little impractical don't you think?

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Impractical? I think you chose the wrong word, as practicality really has nothing to do with the decision to off the human race or let it be.

I'm not even sure it would do much in any case, given that it is unsure whether the Idea really needs humanity at this point, and even if the whole of man kind were to suddenly turn good, get rid of all the emotions that caused it to spring to life it wouldn't necessarily mean that it would cease to exist, it is afterall a fully formed being and an Idea of Evil at that. Going by Plato's notion, Idea persists even if all individual manifestations have stopped to exist, then again we are facing the merging of the layers of the world, so anything is possible I guess.

Black_Devil said:

But I'm sure the Idea is as old as humanity for it to have manipulated things so long.

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It just make me wonder if Idea is as old as humanity, what has he been doing all these while before the first god hand was born (which only begin like 1000 years ago?)

vlad said:

Going by Plato's notion, Idea persists even if all individual manifestations have stopped to exist

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That's true, but then again the manga isn't necessarily following Plato's conception perfectly, even though the influence/inspiration is there.

Smith said:

It just make me wonder if Idea is as old as humanity, what has he been doing all these while before the first god hand was born (which only begin like 1000 years ago?)

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We can only deduce when the oldest member of the current God Hand was born, whatever happened before is a mystery. There might have been another God Hand, or something else, or nothing at all.

Scorpio said:

Impractical? I think you chose the wrong word, as practicality really has nothing to do with the decision to off the human race or let it be.

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No, its impractical because it would take a hell of a lot of death to off the entire human race, I mean that's beyond even genocide. Secondly, who the hell would kill all humans in order to rid the world of evil? More than likely the person would be human him or herself, so would they off themself as well? Then, you have to think of the fact that they would need an army both large, and willing to kill themselves once everyone else is dead. To me it seems like a Modest Proposal-esque solution to the problem, sure its a solution, but its too impractical to do, nor does it make much sense. It basically leaves you with the whole pick your poison scenario, die slowly by the idea of Evil or kill yourself and your entire race in order to cleanse evil.

This discussion isn't getting anywhere. The whole human race isn't going to completely disappear anyway, so there's no use in discussing useless details pertaining to that scenario.