Guts' white hair - possible connection to Skull Knight?

Hello, this is my first post in this forum. Please be kind to me :)

I've briefly used the search function, but it looks like my own interpretation hasn't been touched yet.

Ever since Guts has gotten his Berserker Armor, he's been even more on the edge than he's ever been, as impossible as it may seem. He's not just on the verge of losing his life, but his humanity before anything else.

Now, there starts my theory. We know that the Skull Knight once wore this armor, both evident by statements and the shape of the armor before Guts got it. What's more, the helmet has pretty much the same shape of the one Geiseric, currently known as Skull Knight, has worn during lifetime thousand years ago and the same look of what's SK's face (well, not a face, but a skull...but you get the point) today.

It's clear that the Berserker Armor takes a different shape depending on the wearer. And obviously, this is dependant on strong (maybe coercively negative?) affections of the wearer, such as the Dark Beast of Guts, which can be said to be the very manifestation of Guts malevolent feelings - mainly hatred - accumulated over the years he lived with the brand on his neck. In light of this, it seems that Geiseric had a particularly strong affection for skulls. Or maybe not for skulls in particular but rather an obsession over death which the skull presented a symbol for? In any case, this was most likely the most dominant characteristic that most caused the Berserker Armor to change into one with the skull shaped helmet.

Either way, let's move on closer to the point. Geiseric was undoubtedly a human, yet he continued to exist for a whole millennium as a lifeform, that probably isn't one at all. Maybe the term "transcendent" would fit here. I will eat a broom if he has lungs and can breathe in his skeletal armor body. Or if he has any kind of organism that would qualify for being alive.
Now, why is that?

I suspect, that the Berserker Armor played a major role in what made Skull Knight he is now. This a magical item, so it would be logical to assume that its magic will have some effects to the wearer one or another way.

My theory is that thanks to Flora, Geiseric survived the time he used the Berserker Armor's powers, but ultimately, because he didn't die, the armor began change him. It no longer was simply a manifestation of whatever the hell of a bond Geiseric shared with that fetish for skulls or skull helmets. Instead, Geiseric himself became the manifestation itself.

Now, one will have to wonder why he's not wearing the armor anymore. I'm thinking that the armor had no effect anymore on him due to him having lost his humanity altogether, thus becoming some sort of immortal undead. Or maybe the powers he gained through his manifestation simply exceeded those of his armor.

Now, onto my second point: Guts' white hair.

I've seen the argument that his hair turned white similarly on how people's hair turn white after experiencing some heavy stress (with children, for example). Follwing this logic, Guts' hair should have turned white a long time ago. I don't think, there was a straw that broke the camel's back, either. Guts is far too hardy, far too experienced and more importantly, far too strong willed for something like this to happen. You don't fight your way through hordes of ghosts and monsters just to have your hair turned because of something like....stress?

The helmet of this armor turned into something that would represent the Dark Beast that started to manifest ever since after he fought Roshinu. What caught my eye, was that the part of the white hair is located above the right half of his front. Now, why is that important? That's right, the eye he lost is the right one.

Remember on the beast shaped helmet? It has a different form from when Guts is fully conscious within the activated armor, more like Batman's mask (gotta wonder, if Miura intended this or if it was simply a necessity, given that the original shape would be too awkward for Guts to look through?). That was no Guts that looked through the eyesockets. Something glowwy sparked there.
My theory is that the white hair is a mark from the Dark Beast while the armor was activated the first time. Not just a simple mark. It's a mark from where the right eye of the Beast has manifested within the helmet, because there was no medium eye like the left to look through.

There's also another small detail, that caught my attention. When he ate a soup at night at a beach (they were on the way to Vritannis), he felt a wound inside his mouth. Could that be a sign, that there may have been some manifestation of the Dark Beast's fangs back then? There was also Puck in whose eye there was a reflection of an Apostle's fangs thinking "he's right...it's as if..." after Isidro comments on how inhuman Guts seemed fighting in the Berserker armor. Another symbolic hint on how Guts is turning into the Beast? Or this could just have been the after-effects of having bitten that one insectoid Apostle Flora's forest. But even then, it was the helmet that did the work.

Could it be that we were able to catch a glimpse on how Geiseric became the Skull Knight by following Gut's development related to the Berserker Armor?

Your thoughts?
 
Hi, welcome to SK.net!

Segan said:
It's clear that the Berserker Armor takes a different shape depending on the wearer. And obviously, this is dependant on strong (maybe coercively negative?) affections of the wearer, such as the Dark Beast of Guts, which can be said to be the very manifestation of Guts malevolent feelings - mainly hatred - accumulated over the years he lived with the brand on his neck. In light of this, it seems that Geiseric had a particularly strong affection for skulls. Or maybe not for skulls in particular but rather an obsession over death which the skull presented a symbol for? In any case, this was most likely the most dominant characteristic that most caused the Berserker Armor to change into one with the skull shaped helmet.

My opinion is that the way we see the Berserk's armor (including skull helmet) in Flora's mansion
is its original look. If You look at the Visor of Gaiseric's helmet You'll see it's beast (lion) shaped.
Assuming he is indeed wearing the Berserk's Armor, I would say in "berserk-mode" he would look
like a lion (lion=king of animals) and not a "Skully".
Furthermore there are a lot of ornaments on Gaiseric's armor, but I wouldn't necessarily link them
to death but more to warrior, victory, luck,...
But that's just my two cents.
sk32.jpg

sk7.jpg


So even if Skullknight was Gaiseric, which we can most probably assume at this point, I wouldn't
necessarily see this "skull"-theme as a link between them.

Segan said:
I suspect, that the Berserker Armor played a major role in what made Skull Knight he is now. This a magical item, so it would be logical to assume that its magic will have some effects to the wearer one or another way.
Well, yes: It pierces its owners flesh to fix broken bones, lessens his pain,... pushes him to his limit.
It killed him, or at least his mortal body.

Segan said:
My theory is that thanks to Flora, Geiseric survived the time he used the Berserker Armor's powers, but ultimately, because he didn't die, the armor began change him. It no longer was simply a manifestation of whatever the hell of a bond Geiseric shared with that fetish for skulls or skull helmets. Instead, Geiseric himself became the manifestation itself.

Why should it change him? I think it's more plausible that he somehow (Flora, Hanafubuku) switched to an armor that allowed him to gain a corporeal form.

Segan said:
I've seen the argument that his hair turned white similarly on how people's hair turn white after experiencing some heavy stress (with children, for example). Follwing this logic, Guts' hair should have turned white a long time ago. I don't think, there was a straw that broke the camel's back, either. Guts is far too hardy, far too experienced and more importantly, far too strong willed for something like this to happen. You don't fight your way through hordes of ghosts and monsters just to have your hair turned because of something like....stress?

Guts can indeed endurance a lot of pain, stress,.. , but first of all he was already weakened and
seriously wounded (!) by Slann's manifestation. Remember that he fainted as they went back to Flora.
And after their fight against the Apostles, Guts was out for several days. They couldn't get off the armor
at first since it pierced his whole body. The bleeding didn't stop whilst he was treated by two elfs and
one witch.
I think that is more than enough proof that the stress and the injuries during his fight were indeed sufficient to turn his hair white. Guts is afterall human and has his limits and the armor did more than enough to push them.

Segan said:
There's also another small detail, that caught my attention. When he ate a soup at night at a beach (they were on the way to Vritannis), he felt a wound inside his mouth. Could that be a sign, that there may have been some manifestation of the Dark Beast's fangs back then? There was also Puck in whose eye there was a reflection of an Apostle's fangs thinking "he's right...it's as if..." after Isidro comments on how inhuman Guts seemed fighting in the Berserker armor. Another symbolic hint on how Guts is turning into the Beast? Or this could just have been the after-effects of having bitten that one insectoid Apostle Flora's forest. But even then, it was the helmet that did the work.
Somebody under stress can also break his jaw or teeth by biting together or grinding.
I think it's a little bit farfetched to link comments about a comrade's sudden inhuman behaviour
to a simple soup-eating or salty air. I think if Miura intended something like that he would have
made it a little bit more obvious (by adding another comment by Puck, Serpico,.. whatever).


Segan said:
My theory is that the white hair is a mark from the Dark Beast while the armor was activated the first time. Not just a simple mark. It's a mark from where the right eye of the Beast has manifested within the helmet, because there was no medium eye like the left to look through.
Wouldn't it make more sense if there was suddenly a scar over his right eye?

Segan said:
Could it be that we were able to catch a glimpse on how Geiseric became the Skull Knight by following Guts development related to the Berserker Armor?
Yes. Skully wore Berserk's Armor, fought until every bone was broken, bled too much on his enemies
and was somehow rescued.

Somebody's hair turning white or even loosing it because of stress is no big deal, it happens.
You shouldn't interpret too much into every detail. Because if we did that, Guts' burn wounds would
suddenly mean that the beast tried to manifestate its body.
 

Aeglos

Avatar made in mspaint
On a quick note, I believe and have been under the impression that when Guts ate the soup he didn't hurt from a wound inside his mouth, he actually couldn't taste the soup at all, or very faintly. Thus the allusion Skull Knight made at the beach about "The tongue losing taste" and that he simply lied to the bunch as to not worry them anymore, or just dismissing the event as something unimportant.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Segan said:
Hello, this is my first post in this forum. Please be kind to me :)

Hello, welcome to SK.net! :serpico:

Segan said:
He's not just on the verge of losing his life, but his humanity before anything else.

I guess that depends on how you define "humanity". =)

Segan said:
We know that the Skull Knight once wore this armor, both evident by statements and the shape of the armor before Guts got it. What's more, the helmet has pretty much the same shape of the one Geiseric, currently known as Skull Knight, has worn during lifetime thousand years ago and the same look of what's SK's face (well, not a face, but a skull...but you get the point) today.

The name's spelling is "Gaiseric". And it's also a helmet in the shape of a skull in the case of SK, not his actual skull.

Segan said:
It's clear that the Berserker Armor takes a different shape depending on the wearer. And obviously, this is dependant on strong (maybe coercively negative?) affections of the wearer, such as the Dark Beast of Guts, which can be said to be the very manifestation of Guts malevolent feelings - mainly hatred - accumulated over the years he lived with the brand on his neck.

The name is the "Beast of Darkness", not "Dark Beast". And the Beast represents many things for Guts, I'm not sure it's correct to say "mainly hatred". It's also fear, sorrow and the like. It's a whole, embodying all of his dark emotions.

Segan said:
he continued to exist for a whole millennium as a lifeform, that probably isn't one at all. Maybe the term "transcendent" would fit here.

Of course it's a lifeform, whether he has a corporeal body or not.

Segan said:
I will eat a broom if he has lungs and can breathe in his skeletal armor body. Or if he has any kind of organism that would qualify for being alive.

His armor is empty, we know this with relative certainty.

Segan said:
I suspect, that the Berserker Armor played a major role in what made Skull Knight he is now. This a magical item, so it would be logical to assume that its magic will have some effects to the wearer one or another way.

It has a lot of effects. I've explained it several times in the past, so I recommend you to search for it using the forum's built-in Search Engine.

Segan said:
My theory is that thanks to Flora, Geiseric survived the time he used the Berserker Armor's powers, but ultimately, because he didn't die, the armor began change him. It no longer was simply a manifestation of whatever the hell of a bond Geiseric shared with that fetish for skulls or skull helmets. Instead, Geiseric himself became the manifestation itself.

Well, up until now, your interpretation was honestly not any different from pretty much everyone's idea of what happened. But there's a problem with what you say here. See, Schierke told the others that the armor's last user died wearing it. Now, we don't know for sure that SK was the last wearer, only that he wore it at some point in time, but it is likely (even though we've only seen the armor adapt to a new user once, and that generalizing from this one example could lead us to be wrong). There is the possibility that Schierke is mistaken and that the last owner didn't die, but then he would have been on the edge of death at the very best.

That idea of becoming a manifestation of something doesn't coincide with what we know of the way the armor works. Its Od is incredibly vicious in the way it influences the user, but nothing hints at such a transformation at all.

Segan said:
Now, one will have to wonder why he's not wearing the armor anymore. I'm thinking that the armor had no effect anymore on him due to him having lost his humanity altogether, thus becoming some sort of immortal undead. Or maybe the powers he gained through his manifestation simply exceeded those of his armor.

Or, much more likely, as he lay dying, Flora took him to Elfhelm. There, the elves gave him a new, different armor. One that could hold his astral body into a corporeal shell even though his physical self was gone. Which would explain why Puck felt an elfin aura coming from him in volume 18. I think this is what you have overlooked: that while SK isn't wearing the Berserk's armor anymore, he's still wearing an armor. One we know nothing about but that is obviously very powerful.

Segan said:
Now, onto my second point: Guts' white hair.

I've seen the argument that his hair turned white similarly on how people's hair turn white after experiencing some heavy stress (with children, for example). Follwing this logic, Guts' hair should have turned white a long time ago. I don't think, there was a straw that broke the camel's back, either. Guts is far too hardy, far too experienced and more importantly, far too strong willed for something like this to happen. You don't fight your way through hordes of ghosts and monsters just to have your hair turned because of something like....stress?

He had been astrally wounded by Slan shortly before, and using the Berserk's armor strained his body unlike anything he'd ever lived before. He stayed comatose for almost a month. I think you're severely downplaying what happened at the time, and underestimating the armor's devastating potential on its wearer's body.

Segan said:
Remember on the beast shaped helmet? It has a different form from when Guts is fully conscious within the activated armor, more like Batman's mask (gotta wonder, if Miura intended this or if it was simply a necessity, given that the original shape would be too awkward for Guts to look through?). That was no Guts that looked through the eyesockets. Something glowwy sparked there.

Let's not get carried away here. It's a magical armor. When he wears it, Guts can also control his left hand as if he hadn't lost it. And he sees things differently, check episode 242 for reference. That's why the eyes are glowing. Notice that he's covered in a dark goo as well. So there's nothing abnormal about the eyes glowing, that's the armor's natural state. What you're referring to, the time where he looked a bit like Batman, was a one time occurrence. It happened because Schierke's spirit had flown with Guts inside the armor, and she was preventing the dark fluid from covering his face, keeping him aware of his actions. That's why the helmet looked a bit like a superhero mask, because the bottom of his face, that's usually covered with the dark substance (and is where the inside of the armor's mouth is), was clean. When he comes to himself at the beginning of volume 27 his face also stays clear while the helmet's on for a little while, but it doesn't have that mask look.

Segan said:
My theory is that the white hair is a mark from the Dark Beast while the armor was activated the first time. Not just a simple mark. It's a mark from where the right eye of the Beast has manifested within the helmet, because there was no medium eye like the left to look through.

Hmm, well to be honest I don't think it is the case. The thing is that nothing hints at this possibility in the manga. You also have to be careful not to confuse the Beast of Darkness and the Berserk's armor. While one manifests itself through the other, they are separate things. The Beast is essentially a personification of Guts' dark feelings. It is a psychological entity, something that exists in his mind. And about the eye not being there... When Guts is shown as being influenced by the Beast, we can sometimes see that his eye has taken on the shape of the Beast's eyes, but there's still only one (see for example the beginning of volume 27 when Schierke goes to rescue him from the armor's Od). On the other hand, when Schierke invoked the Blaze Wheel on the Dragon Slayer to defeat the Kundalini in Vritannis, we saw that the armor's right eye had taken on the shape of the wheel. Yet there were no repercussions on Guts.

I'm going a bit fast here so this might seem a tad messy to you, but my point is I find your idea unlikely for the most part, as it lacks solid ground.

Segan said:
There's also another small detail, that caught my attention. When he ate a soup at night at a beach (they were on the way to Vritannis), he felt a wound inside his mouth. Could that be a sign, that there may have been some manifestation of the Dark Beast's fangs back then?

Like Aeglos pointed out, Guts was actually lying about this. The reason he made a face while eating the soup is because his sense of taste is disappearing, just like his other senses. That's the armor's side effects. Nothing to do with fangs manifesting themselves or anything like that. Like I mentioned earlier, you should be able to find some informative posts from myself on the subject if the need arises. :serpico:

Segan said:
There was also Puck in whose eye there was a reflection of an Apostle's fangs thinking "he's right...it's as if..." after Isidro comments on how inhuman Guts seemed fighting in the Berserker armor. Another symbolic hint on how Guts is turning into the Beast? Or this could just have been the after-effects of having bitten that one insectoid Apostle Flora's forest. But even then, it was the helmet that did the work.

Well that line from Puck actually has many possible interpretations. It could mean that Guts is turning into a monster similar to those he fights, but it would be symbolic and nothing else. As for the biting, considering how the helmet works, the jaws could be maneuvered by Guts raising or lowering his head.



royoak said:
My opinion is that the way we see the Berserk's armor (including skull helmet) in Flora's mansion is its original look. If You look at the Visor of Gaiseric's helmet You'll see it's beast (lion) shaped.
Assuming he is indeed wearing the Berserk's Armor, I would say in "berserk-mode" he would look like a lion (lion=king of animals) and not a "Skully".

Hmmm, I don't think so. =) I mean it's not impossible, and it would be interesting because it'd mean the last user that died in the armor wouldn't necessarily be SK, but it seems too complicated for its own good to me. And the skull is what SK's known for. Skull Knight. That's too many coincidences for me here. Not to mention that I don't think the lion part of Gaiseric's helmet is more prominent than the skull.

royoak said:
Furthermore there are a lot of ornaments on Gaiseric's armor, but I wouldn't necessarily link them to death but more to warrior, victory, luck,...

I'll also agree with that, though he was nicknamed "the king who brings death" among other things ("demon king" being another one).

royoak said:
Why should it change him? I think it's more plausible that he somehow (Flora, Hanafubuku) switched to an armor that allowed him to gain a corporeal form.

Well, it'd be "retain" more than "gain" in this case.

royoak said:
And after their fight against the Apostles, Guts was out for several days.

Actually it's close to a month, like I said. It was originally a week when the episode came out but was changed in the volume to better reflect the direness of the situation.

royoak said:
Yes. Skully wore Berserk's Armor, fought until every bone was broken, bled too much on his enemies and was somehow rescued.

The most probable theory at the moment.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
royoak said:
Yes. Skully wore Berserk's Armor, fought until every bone was broken, bled too much on his enemies
and was somehow rescued.

Aazealh said:
The most probable theory at the moment.

Is there anything to refute the notion that this occurred during an occultation in which Gaiseric was offered as a sacrifice? If it is possible, would Flora have been alive at the time, and would she have had the power to enter the occultation, like SK later did? Or the power to pull him from the Vortex of Souls, perhaps?

Aazealh said:
Or, much more likely, as he lay dying, Flora took him to Elfhelm. There, the elves gave him a new, different armor. One that could hold his astral body into a corporeal shell even though his physical self was gone. Which would explain why Puck felt an elfin aura coming from him in volume 18. I think this is what you have overlooked: that while SK isn't wearing the Berserk's armor anymore, he's still wearing an armor. One we know nothing about but that is obviously very powerful.

Given the skull motif of Gaiseric's armor, as well as the skull-ish nature of the Berserker's Armor, it would seem an unlikely coincidence that the armor given him by the elves would have a similar skull theme, unless it was crafted specifically for him, or has the transformation ability of the Berserker's Armor.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
einherjar said:
Is there anything to refute the notion that this occurred during an occultation in which Gaiseric was offered as a sacrifice?

Whose occultation would have it been? The occultation of the oldest member of the God Hand happened 864 years ago, assuming the length of time is the same for all of them. Also, why weren't the bodies of the branded eaten by apostles if it was an occultation? And how was the capital destroyed? By what? Why was the emperor branded along with seemingly random people, and who had a reason to brand him? There are actually several threads discussing these theories which you might find interesting to read as they detail the many problems encountered by the various hypotheses we've come up with so far.

einherjar said:
If it is possible, would Flora have been alive at the time, and would she have had the power to enter the occultation, like SK later did? Or the power to pull him from the Vortex of Souls, perhaps?

I doubt anyone can pull anyone from the Vortex of Souls. As for Flora rescuing him out of an Occultation, well, who knows? :SK:

einherjar said:
Given the skull motif of Gaiseric's armor, as well as the skull-ish nature of the Berserker's Armor, it would seem an unlikely coincidence that the armor given him by the elves would have a similar skull theme, unless it was crafted specifically for him, or has the transformation ability of the Berserker's Armor.

Well it seems quite likely to me that it was either crafted specifically for him or has the transformation ability of the Berserk's Armor. Did you have another possibility in mind?
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Aazealh said:
Whose occultation would have it been? The occultation of the oldest member of the God Hand happened 864 years ago, assuming the length of time is the same for all of them.

The biggest issue I've seen is the inferred chronology that would make Gaiseric close to (if not older than) 150 years old at the birth of the first God Hand. Of course, this may be a minor obstacle, since his lifespan could have been lengthened by some magical means, which, given SK's involvement with Flora, doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

Aazealh said:
Also, why weren't the bodies of the branded eaten by apostles if it was an occultation?

It seems unlikely to me that there would be apostles without at least one God Hand. Any thoughts?
**Oh yeah... That kind of screws any idea of Gaiseric bleeding out while fighting apostles in that particular occultation, now doesn't it... ***

Aazealh said:
And how was the capital destroyed? By what?

Clearly the 4/5 angels! (Bad attempt at humor.) Honestly though, reading through old posts... I had never considered the possibility of those 'angels' being the Elemental Kings, and I don't really like that hypothesis. I remember surmising a while back that the God Hand may transcend time, but after a recent reread of Volume 3, when we are shown the Count's first sacrifice, Femto is clearly not present. So the short of it is that I really have no answer I like to explain that event.

Aazealh said:
Why was the emperor branded along with seemingly random people, and who had a reason to brand him?

I kind of like the following explanation:
Ramen4ever said:
I'm having a strange theory rolling around in my head but at the moment its a complicated mess, so I'll refrain from sharing it in too much detail.
Something along the lines of where the brand originated from. So far only Void has ever cast the brand onto others. I'm lead to believe that he was a either a magic user or a religious figure in his original life. And the brand was not originally a mark of sacrifice but a mark for his religion or maybe his beliefs. His followers wore the symbol as a sign. Then maybe when Gaiseric had him tortured, he prayed or "offered" those with the symbol of his faith or ideals as sacrifices. For whatever purpose. Becoming immortal.. or maybe for the strength to destroy Gaiseric's empire. At which point maybe those once harmless symbols seared into the peoples skin and the life was literally drained out of them.
But, unlike the originator of this line of thought, I do believe SK was a sacrifice.


Aazealh said:
I doubt anyone can pull anyone from the Vortex of Souls. As for Flora rescuing him out of an Occultation, well, who knows? :SK:

Now I'm more confused than ever.

Aazealh said:
Well it seems quite likely to me that it was either crafted specifically for him or has the transformation ability of the Berserk's Armor. Did you have another possibility in mind?

Was the Berserk's armor really made by "dwarves," or was this a mistranslation of "elves?" Honestly, I hadn't given the matter much thought until now. I assumed it was a custom job, rather than had the ability to transform.

Aazealh said:
There are actually several threads discussing these theories which you might find interesting to read as they detail the many problems encountered by the various hypotheses we've come up with so far.

There certainly are, and they certainly are...
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Clearly the 4/5 angels! (Bad attempt at humor.) Honestly though, reading through old posts... I had never considered the possibility of those 'angels' being the Elemental Kings, and I don't really like that hypothesis. I remember surmising a while back that the God Hand may transcend time, but after a recent reread of Volume 3, when we are shown the Count's first sacrifice, Femto is clearly not present. So the short of it is that I really have no answer I like to explain that event.

Going off of this, here is another wrench to through into the gears. Who is to say that these set of God Hand's are the only ones? Like Aaz has said, the earliest God Hand, presumably Void, was around 850'ish years ago. I am sure their area has been around much longer then that and if one of the themes if not the main one is causality which goes around in a spiral, then having a set of god hands that precede these is too far out of the question.

If the Idea of Evil became from all the suffering going around and people wanting a reason on why it happened... I'm sure that the people that lived before that 850+ years ago went through the same thing...

To make things clearer on what I'm trying to say is...

I think that there Idea has been created before much longer before this time period and Gaiseric's. I base this off that man in general will always have those that are evil and impose their wants and ideologies. So with that I am sure that this world has gone through this before but it was stopped/held off for a large portion of time.

Hope I didnt make things too much more confusing. :carcus:
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
SaiyajinNoOuji-Cards are in the mail! said:
Going off of this, here is another wrench to through into the gears. Who is to say that these set of God Hand's are the only ones? Like Aaz has said, the earliest God Hand, presumably Void, was around 850'ish years ago. I am sure their area has been around much longer then that and if one of the themes if not the main one is causality which goes around in a spiral, then having a set of god hands that precede these is too far out of the question.

This theory has been around for some time. My major complaint with it: What happened to all the other God Hand? If one GH is born every 216 years, but one can only be reincarnated on earth every 1000 years, that would leave almost +4 GH every millennia. I doubt they can go into retirement very easily.

SaiyajinNoOuji-Cards are in the mail! said:
If the Idea of Evil became from all the suffering going around and people wanting a reason on why it happened... I'm sure that the people that lived before that 850+ years ago went through the same thing...

Well, we don't know how old the Berserk world is, and we don't know how long it took for humanity's collective unconscious to create the Idea of Evil, but the possibility exists that the Idea waited for a considerable amount of time before the birth of the first God Hand.

SaiyajinNoOuji-Cards are in the mail! said:
So with that I am sure that this world has gone through this before but it was stopped/held off for a large portion of time.

While I'm opposed to this cyclical theory, let's assume for a moment that it is the case. How and by whom was it stopped or held off?
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
This theory has been around for some time. My major complaint with it: What happened to all the other God Hand? If one GH is born every 216 years, but one can only be reincarnated on earth every 1000 years, that would leave almost +4 GH every millennia. I doubt they can go into retirement very easily.
How about they were destroyed/expelled? My theory is that since the God Hands are servants of the idea of evil, if that the idea of evil is defeated or at least stripped of its powers, that those god hands would cease to exist. Granted I have absolutely no evidence what so ever to back this up, but thats one of the only answers I see to answer your question.

While I'm opposed to this cyclical theory, let's assume for a moment that it is the case. How and by whom was it stopped or held off?
Maybe Gut's great great great great great great ancestor? :guts: ... but who knows for sure. There were possibly witches and others who studied the arts waaaay back when, so maybe they some how did it.
 

Okin

The Ultimate Battle Creature
What I think everyone's saying is that there must have been generations of GH. Each was wiped out by some hero of the past, and in the process the Idea of Evil was weakened (Or his plans back a few hundred years). It follows the pattern of the cyclical history rather nicely. But if the Idea controls fate, I seriously doubt mere mortals could alter his plans even once, let alone multiple times.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Okin said:
What I think everyone's saying is that there must have been generations of GH. Each was wiped out by some hero of the past, and in the process the Idea of Evil was weakened (Or his plans back a few hundred years). It follows the pattern of the cyclical history rather nicely. But if the Idea controls fate, I seriously doubt mere mortals could alter his plans even once, let alone multiple times.
Well if Idea of Evil stems from the dark parts of humans, thus created by humans, why cant it be defeated by humans?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
einherjar said:
The biggest issue I've seen is the inferred chronology that would make Gaiseric close to (if not older than) 150 years old at the birth of the first God Hand.

Actually, the biggest problem is that the destruction of Gaiseric's capital is said to have occurred a thousand years ago, meaning about 136 years before the birth of the first member of the God Hand. Of course, the dates might be inaccurate, but if we assume that, then we can't take anything in the tale for granted?

einherjar said:
It seems unlikely to me that there would be apostles without at least one God Hand. Any thoughts?
**Oh yeah... That kind of screws any idea of Gaiseric bleeding out while fighting apostles in that particular occultation, now doesn't it... ***

Yeah. =)

einherjar said:
So the short of it is that I really have no answer I like to explain that event.

Yes, and neither does anyone as far as I know. We lack too much information to really be able to answer it.

einherjar said:
I kind of like the following explanation:But, unlike the originator of this line of thought, I do believe SK was a sacrifice.

Well it's imaginative and all, but mostly it's wild speculation and it still has flaws. For example, are we to assume that the followers of Void's cult all had brands on their foreheads? I don't know, but the idea seems a tad awkward to me. That ceremony from Void would also not be an Occultation, so how would it have affected Gaiseric? If he did torture Void, then he wouldn't have worn that sign on himself, right? Then how was he sacrificed? And if the others were drained of their essence, how did he survive? What did he fight to his death? And if Void had the power to destroy a capital, why has he seemingly lost it (God Hand members couldn't directly affect the real world before Femto's rise as far as we know)? And who are the angels mentioned in the tale?

einherjar said:
Was the Berserk's armor really made by "dwarves," or was this a mistranslation of "elves?"

In Berserk, dwarves are a subcategory of elves. Puck and Ivalera are piskies, elves affiliated with the wind element. Dwarves are elves affiliated with the earth element.

einherjar said:
Honestly, I hadn't given the matter much thought until now. I assumed it was a custom job, rather than had the ability to transform.

Well, it could be a custom job with the ability to transform. :guts:

einherjar said:
This theory has been around for some time. My major complaint with it: What happened to all the other God Hand? If one GH is born every 216 years, but one can only be reincarnated on earth every 1000 years, that would leave almost +4 GH every millennia. I doubt they can go into retirement very easily.

Keep in mind that when a member of the God hand is incarnated, he doesn't lose his status. Griffith is still an integral and rather essential part of the God Hand. Furthermore, we don't even know if an Incarnation ceremony ever happened before.

einherjar said:
While I'm opposed to this cyclical theory, let's assume for a moment that it is the case. How and by whom was it stopped or held off?

Maybe there was a cataclysmic battle opposing them to Gaiseric and his allies. Said battle could have resulted in his empire's capital city being destroyed and his reign ended. Once again, nothing new here, just old theories and hypotheses.

Okin said:
What I think everyone's saying is that there must have been generations of GH.

Nobody said something must have happened and it's a good thing because there's no ground to be saying it. There might have been a God Hand before the one we know. It's a possibility.

Okin said:
Each was wiped out by some hero of the past, and in the process the Idea of Evil was weakened (Or his plans back a few hundred years). It follows the pattern of the cyclical history rather nicely.

I don't find this "Idea of Evil being weakened" scenario very likely, and I think that if many heroes like Guts were shown to have destroyed the God Hand through the ages it would kind of lower his greatness. Not to mention that he's far from being able to do anything like that right now (and the same goes for SK as far as we know). Besides, what Flora told SK wasn't related to history but to causality, and her point was that it's a spiral and not a circle, so that events don't have to repeat themselves identically.

Okin said:
But if the Idea controls fate, I seriously doubt mere mortals could alter his plans even once, let alone multiple times.

It's not "fate" but "causality". And yeah, it's indeed hard to imagine people thwarting the Idea of Evil repeatedly.

SaiyajinNoOuji-Cards are in the mail! said:
Well if Idea of Evil stems from the dark parts of humans, thus created by humans, why cant it be defeated by humans?

It's a bit difficult for me to conceive a defeat of the Idea of Evil to be honest. First off humans aren't aware of its existence. Second, they have no means by which they could attain it even if they knew of it. Third, the Idea of Evil is a part of mankind, so it isn't as if humanity was fighting an alien adversary in a conventional way. And fourth, not only do people have individually no way to do anything to it, but it has control over mankind as a whole through its agents (GH, apostles) and causality.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
It's a bit difficult for me to conceive a defeat of the Idea of Evil to be honest. First off humans aren't aware of its existence. Second, they have no means by which they could attain it even if they knew of it. Third, the Idea of Evil is a part of mankind, so it isn't as if humanity was fighting an alien adversary in a conventional way. And fourth, not only do people have individually no way to do anything to it, but it has control over mankind as a whole through its agents (GH, apostles) and causality.

Unless of course there is some sort of omnipotent, omnitient idea of Good that opposes the machinations of the Idea of Evil, and it tries to manipulate the heroes of the Berserk universe in much of the way that the Idea of Evil uses it's villains, of course I'm only semi-serious here.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Unless of course there is some sort of omnipotent, omnitient idea of Good that opposes the machinations of the Idea of Evil
Many threads already exist on this concept, and it's generally regarded as crap.

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=7702.0
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Of course, that's why I said I was only semi serious, I was only a little serious because I've been surprised by Berserk before, I mean who could honestly say they saw the eclipse coming before it did?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Of course, that's why I said I was only semi serious, I was only a little serious because I've been surprised by Berserk before, I mean who could honestly say they saw the eclipse coming before it did?
Zodd, Skull Knight and then Wyald all alluded to it. And if you followed the manga, it was pretty clear it was going to happen from Volume 3 onwards.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Walter said:
Zodd, Skull Knight and then Wyald all alluded to it. And if you followed the manga, it was pretty clear it was going to happen from Volume 3 onwards.
Yes, but we didn't know exactly what would happen at the event, just that Griffith seemed to be a key player.
Zodd, didn't know until he saw the crimson beherit, and Wyald was charged with finding and killing Griffith, one of his future lords, so he really didn't know, so I don't think we really were supposed to know a lot of the details.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Well, Im not trying to argue against you that the series is often surprising. I just don't think the Eclipse is the best moment to point to fro that aspect, since most of the events were alluded to already in several iterations. . We knew Griffith would sacrifice The Hawks to enter into the God Hand. That aspect was clearly implied in Volume 3. Honestly it's really hard for me to go back 9 years to remember my state of mind when I first read it (i saw the Eclipse first in the manga, with no translations). So maybe Im not the best judge here.

Now, Slan showing up in the Qliphoth, and trading words with Skull Knight -- THAT was a surprise.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Walter said:
Well, Im not trying to argue against you that the series is often surprising. I just don't think the Eclipse is the best moment to point to fro that aspect, since most of the events were alluded to already in several iterations. . We knew Griffith would sacrifice The Hawks to enter into the God Hand. That aspect was clearly implied in Volume 3. Honestly it's really hard for me to go back 9 years to remember my state of mind when I first read it (i saw the Eclipse first in the manga, with no translations). So maybe Im not the best judge here.

Now, Slan showing up in the Qliphoth, and trading words with Skull Knight -- THAT was a surprise.
Ok, yeah I read it 4 years back and after I posted the thing about Wyald, I thought "Uh, oh. Didn't Wyald try to force Griffith to summon the Godhand?" Because I really wasn't sure myself when he found out that Griffith was to be the next Godhand member, or maybe did he just think it was a regular beherit, I really don't remember.

Also the Idea of Good thing, now I'm starting to think more and more of there being a chance of something of the sort existing, but at the same time I don't know how much I'd want my suspicions to be true, that would be the first thing I predicted and I really don't want Berserk doing anything remotely cliche.

One last little off topic thing: can anyone tell me who SK was referring to when he said that Zodd had been commanded by the "Gatekeeper", excuse me if its something that could've been searched for.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Ok, yeah I read it 4 years back and after I posted the thing about Wyald, I thought "Uh, oh. Didn't Wyald try to force Griffith to summon the Godhand?" Because I really wasn't sure myself when he found out that Griffith was to be the next Godhand member, or maybe did he just think it was a regular beherit, I really don't remember.
Yeah, sounds like you might need to review it. Wyald was trying to defy the causal order of events, saying he could "do as he pleases," and in a final desperate attack, embarasses Griffith with his new special-needs body in front of his comrades. He knew Griffith was destined to become a God Hand.

Also the Idea of Good thing, now I'm starting to think more and more of there being a chance of something of the sort existing, but at the same time I don't know how much I'd want my suspicions to be true, that would be the first thing I predicted and I really don't want Berserk doing anything remotely cliche.
I'm not really sure how you've convinced yourself of this with utterly no evidence of it in the series. I'm kind of morbidly curious to hear your rationale. But maybe not in this thread. Revive the Idea of Good thread if you have a new angle.

One last little off topic thing: can anyone tell me who SK was referring to when he said that Zodd had been commanded by the "Gatekeeper", excuse me if its something that could've been searched for.
You're misreading the line. SK muses that Zodd was ordered to be on guard duty outside the Eclipse, presumedly to keep SK out. But Zodd replies that he's no guard dog for the God Hand, and only seeks the strong, and he was simply waiting around for his favorite punching bag.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Walter said:
Yeah, sounds like you might need to review it. Wyald was trying to defy the causal order of events, saying he could "do as he pleases," and in a final desperate attack, embarasses Griffith with his new special-needs body in front of his comrades. He knew Griffith was destined to become a God Hand.
I'm not really sure how you've convinced yourself of this with utterly no evidence of it in the series. I'm kind of morbidly curious to hear your rationale. But maybe not in this thread. Revive the Idea of Good thread if you have a new angle.
You're misreading the line. SK muses that Zodd was ordered to be on guard duty outside the Eclipse, presumedly to keep SK out. But Zodd replies that he's no guard dog for the God Hand, and only seeks the strong, and he was simply waiting around for his favorite punching bag.
This is really lazy but what the hell:

Wyald comment: Thought as much...

Idea of Good comment: I will, I'll try to make my angle as airtight as possible

Zodd watchdog comment: I could've sworn that SK said that you've been commanded by the Gatekeeper, though maybe that was Void, and that he also said that fate foretold his victory over Zodd, which also raised the question on whether or not the Idea was using Void at a detriment to him, someone had to be manipulating causality so that Void would be foretold to lose to SK.

But none of this has to do with Guts' whitehair so I'll add these thoughts to dedicated threads, first off the daunting task of arguing the POSSIBILITY of an Idea of Good.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Unless of course there is some sort of omnipotent, omnitient idea of Good that opposes the machinations of the Idea of Evil, and it tries to manipulate the heroes of the Berserk universe in much of the way that the Idea of Evil uses it's villains, of course I'm only semi-serious here.

Such a thing would imply a conflict between 2 forces and it just hasn't been shown or even been hinted at in the manga. Rather, nothing seems to hinder the supposed masterplan of the Idea of Evil. And anyway, the scenario you're depicting still doesn't make for a defeat of the Idea of Evil. At best its plans would be thwarted.

Guts' intestines said:
I mean who could honestly say they saw the eclipse coming before it did?

Everyone. :void:

Guts' intestines said:
Yes, but we didn't know exactly what would happen at the event, just that Griffith seemed to be a key player.

We didn't know what apostle was going to kill what member of the Band of the Falcon. However we did know Guts would be sacrificed and branded (and subsequently escape to take his revenge as a lone wolf), we did know the God Hand would appear, we did know Griffith would become Femto, we did know apostles would be there, and in general we knew it was going to be something really big. It was even stated that everyone in the Band of the Falcon was to die. It's honestly not the most surprising thing that's happened in the manga.

Guts riding on Zodd's back to defeat Ganishka, now that was unexpected.

Guts' intestines said:
Zodd, didn't know until he saw the crimson beherit

What's the relation? Zodd knew an Occultation would occur at the appointed time. Then when he saw Griffith had the beherit, he surmised that he would be the one to become the fifth member of the God Hand. Walter's point is that we were told what would happen very early, and then it was alluded to repeatedly during the Golden Age arc.

Guts' intestines said:
Wyald was charged with finding and killing Griffith, one of his future lords, so he really didn't know

Hahaha, Wyald wasn't charged with anything, Zodd's not Judge Dredd you know. And he did know the Occultation was to occur, he constantly referred to it during his short appearance. His desperate try to force Griffith to restore him to health only shows that he didn't understand exactly how things worked, but he knew what was going to happen.

Guts' intestines said:
Also the Idea of Good thing, now I'm starting to think more and more of there being a chance of something of the sort existing

Well then try to think of what ground there is for such an idea. What makes you believe it's possible? I think you should take Walter's advice and read on the old threads we've got on the issue. I'd say I've covered it well in the past.

Guts' intestines said:
I could've sworn that SK said that you've been commanded by the Gatekeeper, though maybe that was Void, and that he also said that fate foretold his victory over Zodd, which also raised the question on whether or not the Idea was using Void at a detriment to him, someone had to be manipulating causality so that Void would be foretold to lose to SK.

Wow, that's out there. But no, it's like Walter said.

Guts' intestines said:
But none of this has to do with Guts' whitehair so I'll add these thoughts to dedicated threads, first off the daunting task of arguing the POSSIBILITY of an Idea of Good.

Good initiative, and good luck with your task.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
Such a thing would imply a conflict between 2 forces and it just hasn't been shown or even been hinted at in the manga. Rather, nothing seems to hinder the supposed masterplan of the Idea of Evil. And anyway, the scenario you're depicting still doesn't make for a defeat of the Idea of Evil. At best its plans would be thwarted.

Everyone. :void:

We didn't know what apostle was going to kill what member of the Band of the Falcon. However we did know Guts would be sacrificed and branded (and subsequently escape to take his revenge as a lone wolf), we did know the God Hand would appear, we did know Griffith would become Femto, we did know apostles would be there, and in general we knew it was going to be something really big. It was even stated that everyone in the Band of the Falcon was to die. It's honestly not the most surprising thing that's happened in the manga.

Guts riding on Zodd's back to defeat Ganishka, now that was unexpected.

What's the relation? Zodd knew an Occultation would occur at the appointed time. Then when he saw Griffith had the beherit, he surmised that he would be the one to become the fifth member of the God Hand. Walter's point is that we were told what would happen very early, and then it was alluded to repeatedly during the Golden Age arc.

Hahaha, Wyald wasn't charged with anything, Zodd's not Judge Dredd you know. And he did know the Occultation was to occur, he constantly referred to it during his short appearance. His desperate try to force Griffith to restore him to health only shows that he didn't understand exactly how things worked, but he knew what was going to happen.

Well then try to think of what ground there is for such an idea. What makes you believe it's possible? I think you should take Walter's advice and read on the old threads we've got on the issue. I'd say I've covered it well in the past.

Wow, that's out there. But no, it's like Walter said.

Good initiative, and good luck with your task.

I want to save most of this, so I'll give you one tiny bit of my argument. Any at the end of the events of the eclipse Slan speaks of the birth of Griffith as the fifth angel as the event that will lead to evil overcoming the sacred, hate overcoming love, illusion overcoming existence, etc.(Age of Darkness) all that make you think of some great struggle between Good and Evil, I have other arguments but again I'll save it for an appropriate thread.

I'll say this however, I had forgotten that I had seen the anime in 02, a full two years before I had read the manga, so of course at the time when I had first seen the eclipse it wasn't foreshadowed hardly at all, mostly because you didn't see Griffith as Femto in the first few volumes as you did in the manga, Femto wasn't shown until the craptacular conclusion, so my error on that one. That to me is the only thing the Anime has over the Manga, gotta say the only way to truly appreciate the eclipse as a plot twist is through watching the Anime first then reading the Manga.

Aaz, you gave me no credit on this one. I didn't mean Wyald was charged with some sort of offense, I meant that he was ordered (as much as an apostle could be ordered by a mortal, anyway) by the king of Midland to hunt down Griffith, I had assumed that Wyald wouldn't go after his future leader had he known that Griffith was to be his future leader, I figured that if Zodd needed to see the Crimson beherit in order to know that Griffith was to become the fifth angel why couldn't Wyald be just as ignorant. Then I remembered that Wyald was a sadistic bastard, so there was the logic.

And again my point about an Idea of Good is that its possible, and I don't mean far out, or the type of technically 1 in 1,000,000 type of possibility, I mean reasonably so, this wouldn't be the first story to do something of the ilk, and if there isn't one then that's one negative fucked up world that Guts lives in, I mean hopelessly so, I mean doomed to be nothing but a puppet for something that takes the appearance of something straight out of a work by Edgar Allen Poe.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Slan speaks of the birth of Griffith

Femto, not Griffith. :guts:

Guts' intestines said:
all that make you think of some great struggle between Good and Evil

Does it? It seems to me that evil will overcome good with no struggle at all. And it's what's been happening so far.

Guts' intestines said:
Femto wasn't shown until the craptacular conclusion

You do see him and the rest of the God Hand briefly in the first episode, but yeah it's not very explicit.

Guts' intestines said:
Aaz, you gave me no credit on this one. I didn't mean Wyald was charged with some sort of offense, I meant that he was ordered (as much as an apostle could be ordered by a mortal, anyway) by the king of Midland to hunt down Griffith

Oh, haha Ok sorry. I didn't really see what you were getting at.

Guts' intestines said:
I had assumed that Wyald wouldn't go after his future leader had he known that Griffith was to be his future leader, I figured that if Zodd needed to see the Crimson beherit in order to know that Griffith was to become the fifth angel why couldn't Wyald be just as ignorant. Then I remembered that Wyald was a sadistic bastard, so there was the logic.

Ok. Well the thing is, Wyald took the apostles' motto to heart and so he didn't mind going to the party early (almost paraphrasing him here). He knew the Occultation was about to occur, and he knew Griffith was the chosen one. We don't know what he had in mind for him though, and we never will.

Guts' intestines said:
And again my point about an Idea of Good is that its possible, and I don't mean far out, or the type of technically 1 in 1,000,000 type of possibility, I mean reasonably so, this wouldn't be the first story to do something of the ilk, and if there isn't one then that's one negative fucked up world that Guts lives in, I mean hopelessly so, I mean doomed to be nothing but a puppet for something that takes the appearance of something straight out of a work by Edgar Allen Poe.

It's no secret that Guts lives in a harsh world. And because something is cliché or easy to think of doesn't mean it's likely. Like I said, nothing in the story hints at such a possibility. Hell, few things aside from episode 83 hint at the Idea of Evil's existence. You're free to post your ideas and theories about it like many others did before you, but don't be mistaken: it's groundless for now.
 
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