When did Guts surpass Griffith?

Death May Die · July 12, 2008

I wasn't sure if this topic was appropriate for the theory forums but any how.

I was watching the anime. The scene where Guts defeats Griffith to pursue his own dreams comes up. Now, granted Guts wasn't sure if he could beat Griffith. Griffith for that matter was pretty sure he could beat Guts. Of course, Guts defeats Griffith (Pretty damn easily too.)

I don't know if this is worth discussing or not. But when do you think Guts was able to over come Griffith. I guess I'm asking what was the turning point?

I would have thought perhaps killing the 100+ soldiers while protecting Casca may have put him a step physically over Griffith and in terms of skill. IDK

Aazealh · July 12, 2008

Well I'd say it's more of a progressive, day-to-day thing than just one event that made him stronger. He kept fighting and training everyday while Griffith was busy with other matters, and of course they grew up to the point where the age gap with Griffith didn't matter anymore. It's all of this coupled with Guts' innate capacities that eventually made his superiority so flagrant.

It's hard to pinpoint an exact moment, and for that matter it might have been as early as during the 3 year gap in volume 5.

ApostlePaul · July 12, 2008

I'm with Aaz on this (duh). I mean, in the anime you see him practicing with his sword far more than once. I think that he and the other hawks put Griffith on a pedestal as well concerning his skills. I'd go as far to say that Guts could have left earlier, or possibly even have beaten Griffith if he were in top shape in their first actualy duel.

avidwriter · July 12, 2008

ApostlePaul said:
I'm with Aaz on this (duh). I mean, in the anime you see him practicing with his sword far more than once. I think that he and the other hawks put Griffith on a pedestal as well concerning his skills. I'd go as far to say that Guts could have left earlier, or possibly even have beaten Griffith if he were in top shape in their first actualy duel.

I thought that too. He might have been able to beat him but I think they were pretty damn near even to a hair. I'd say Aaz is right in saying he could probably have beaten him as early as that 5 year gap.

Oburi · July 13, 2008

I don't even think it was necessarily strength and swordsmanship alone that determined the fight. Unlike their first encounter, this fight was basically decided in one strike. The reason Guts was able to defeat Griffith was because of internal emotions. This time around Guts was the one who was very calm and composed. He wasn't afraid of losing to Griffith because he knew this was something that had to be done. Griffith on the other hand was confused and that quickly turned to anger and rage. He even admits that if Guts will not be "his" then his life is forfeit. He was going to do anything he had to in order to win. Thats why Guts was able to beat him so easily. Obviously he became stronger and more skilled than when they first met but I don't think that was the big factor. It was more of how Guts had grown as a person since then. It was probably after he heard Griffith making his "friend" speech to the princess that night and he decided to leave that he knew he might have to fight Griffith. But it was something he had to do. Now that I think about it, it was Griffith who drew his blade and Guts who tried to jokingly get out of it. In their first encounter it was Guts who wanted to kick his ass so bad and Griffith just saying things like " I don't want to hurt you, but I will." So yea basically the positions were just switched since their first battle and Guts won because Griffith had never been in that position before. His calm and composed nature had dissipeared because for the first time in his life something was not going along with his plan. Also theirs the whole friendship thing too but that another matter.

Aazealh · July 13, 2008

Oburi said:
I don't even think it was necessarily strength and swordsmanship alone that determined the fight. Unlike their first encounter, this fight was basically decided in one strike. The reason Guts was able to defeat Griffith was because of internal emotions. This time around Guts was the one who was very calm and composed. He wasn't afraid of losing to Griffith because he knew this was something that had to be done. Griffith on the other hand was confused and that quickly turned to anger and rage. He even admits that if Guts will not be "his" then his life is forfeit. He was going to do anything he had to in order to win. Thats why Guts was able to beat him so easily. Obviously he became stronger and more skilled than when they first met but I don't think that was the big factor.

You probably need to re-read that scene, because Guts' skill was definitely the determinant factor. The reason it was decided in one strike to begin with is because Griffith knew that was his only chance of winning.

Oburi · July 13, 2008

Aazealh said:
You probably need to re-read that scene, because Guts' skill was definitely the determinant factor. The reason it was decided in one strike to begin with is because Griffith knew that was his only chance of winning.

well ok so for Griffith he thought it would be better to end it in one strike, I understand that, but he was still confident he was going win. I just meant I don't think thats the actual reason Guts won. You can agree to that...right?

Aazealh · July 14, 2008

Oburi said:
well ok so for Griffith he thought it would be better to end it in one strike

He didn't think it was better, he thought it was the only possible way for him to win.

Oburi said:
I just meant I don't think thats the actual reason Guts won. You can agree to that...right?

I think Guts won because of his superior skill (and speed/strength) rather than because Griffith was nervous. You didn't make a bad point about their positions being exchanged and all that, but I don't think it really mattered.

ori · July 15, 2008

Oburi said:
I don't even think it was necessarily strength and swordsmanship alone that determined the fight. Unlike their first encounter, this fight was basically decided in one strike. The reason Guts was able to defeat Griffith was because of internal emotions. This time around Guts was the one who was very calm and composed. He wasn't afraid of losing to Griffith because he knew this was something that had to be done. Griffith on the other hand was confused and that quickly turned to anger and rage. He even admits that if Guts will not be "his" then his life is forfeit. He was going to do anything he had to in order to win. Thats why Guts was able to beat him so easily. Obviously he became stronger and more skilled than when they first met but I don't think that was the big factor. It was more of how Guts had grown as a person since then. It was probably after he heard Griffith making his "friend" speech to the princess that night and he decided to leave that he knew he might have to fight Griffith. But it was something he had to do. Now that I think about it, it was Griffith who drew his blade and Guts who tried to jokingly get out of it. In their first encounter it was Guts who wanted to kick his ass so bad and Griffith just saying things like " I don't want to hurt you, but I will." So yea basically the positions were just switched since their first battle and Guts won because Griffith had never been in that position before. His calm and composed nature had dissipeared because for the first time in his life something was not going along with his plan. Also theirs the whole friendship thing too but that another matter.

[br]What about when/if he finally confronts either Human Griffith or Femto Griffith in the berserker armor(I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already)? Do you think he would be so calm and composed? I have a feeling he won't be so calm or rather in turmoil on what he should do. Activate the armor or not for the sake of everyone else. In such a case, perhaps his skill will save him in the end just like in this encounter you speak of. Just thinking aimlessly of course.....ever since I tried to follow everyone's theories in this forum about Berserk. The series has become even MORE complex and tedious than before! :serpico:

Guts intestines · July 15, 2008

ori said:
[br]What about when/if he finally confronts either Human Griffith or Femto Griffith in the berserker armor(I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already)? Do you think he would be so calm and composed? I have a feeling he won't be so calm or rather in turmoil on what he should do. Activate the armor or not for the sake of everyone else. In such a case, perhaps his skill will save him in the end just like in this encounter you speak of. Just thinking aimlessly of course.....ever since I tried to follow everyone's theories in this forum about Berserk. The series has become even MORE complex and tedious than before!

Complex, but never tedious.

Aazealh · July 16, 2008

ori said:
What about when/if he finally confronts either Human Griffith or Femto Griffith

You mean Femto with or without a body basically. Because I don't think it's really appropriate to call Griffith "human" at this point.

ori said:
in the berserker armor(I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already)? Do you think he would be so calm and composed? I have a feeling he won't be so calm or rather in turmoil on what he should do. Activate the armor or not for the sake of everyone else.

Well that's making a lot of assumptions. Between now and then just about everything could happen. Who knows, maybe Guts won't even wear that armor anymore.

ori · July 16, 2008

Aazealh said:
You mean Femto with or without a body basically. Because I don't think it's really appropriate to call Griffith "human" at this point.

[br]That's true he is part of some astral plane or whatever it may be.

[br]

Aazealh said:
Well that's making a lot of assumptions. Between now and then just about everything could happen. Who knows, maybe Guts won't even wear that armor anymore.

[br]
I know it assuming much but speculation is mostly about assumptions based on foreshadowing the series as a story. It no one did that then no one here would have narrowed down things to the truth! :serpico:

Or somewhat truths. Another assumption....Don't you feel Guts needs that armor at this point? Not now of course because he's healing but again. I know he's already taken apostles without the armor but ever since the reincarnation of Griffith and the formation of the new band of hawk, I feared for Guts until he received the armor. Maybe I don't give Guts too much credit heh.

vanheat · July 16, 2008

ori said:
I feared for Guts until he received the armor. Maybe I don't give Guts too much credit heh.

He will need armour to fight but maybe he will get better armour or less detrimental armour in Elfhelm. Something has to happen otherwise he will go blind etc. Or he does go blind or worse. I can't imagine him though losing the berserker armour at this point. Maybe augmentation.

ori said:
[br] I have a feeling he won't be so calm or rather in turmoil on what he should do. Activate the armour or not for the sake of everyone else

I imagine that by the end of Elfhelm he will have made up his mind on what to do unless Elfhelm can be touched by Griffith beforehand. Guts has to know that in order to beat or reach Griffith his armour cannot take over. Guts was probably the one that used the wind/sword to fall into safety (Not the berserker armour) against Daiba in the port. Also his party takes priority over his revenge. I don't see guts throwing away or jeopardizing them just to kill Griffith. He's already lost too much.

Death May Die · August 19, 2008

Well, thinking back to times when Griffith actually got in a pinch:

Does anyone think that Guts was well beyond Griffith with the first encounter with Zodd? Well, at least Guts withstood a hell a lot more than Griffith.

Granted, Zodd backed off when he saw the behilet on Griffith. But I doubt Zodd would of found him as much as a challenge than what he did when fighting Guts.

Of course, thats just a opinion. Point being maybe Guts was above Griffith not too long even after Guts and Griffith's first encounter. I mean, he was the work horse of the Band of the hawk. I wouldn't think it would of been too long till he was overshadowing Griffith in Skill and Strength.

Zelz · September 3, 2008

I think it was most likely his time with the Band of the Hawk and being the Raid Leader.

I think it is even implied in the manga that was how he was able to do it because before that fate changing fight when Casca is thinking about who would win and that she wants Guts to stay with them, it shows scenes of Guts past battles, etc and talks about how he must of grown much stronger with all he had to endure during those battles. Griffith on the other hand, like it has been mentioned here previously had to deal with a lot of tactics and politics as well as fighting while Guts was jut focusing on fighting, surviving, and getting stronger.

Then you also have to remember their first encounter wasn't exactly a one-sided fight either, Guts was able to hold his own quite well for a bit even though he ended up being defeated in the end. I would even go as far to say that they were pretty close skill wise with a sword during that time with Griffith being a bit stronger. So fighting those 100 men, the encounter with Zodd, the battle with General Boscone and his tasks and exploits as the Raid Leader might have just given Guts the edge he needed to surpass Griffith, while he was concerned with many other things.

Aazealh · September 3, 2008

ori said:
I know he's already taken apostles without the armor but ever since the reincarnation of Griffith and the formation of the new band of hawk, I feared for Guts until he received the armor. Maybe I don't give Guts too much credit heh.

The armor might be endangering him more than his enemies, that's the problem.

vanheat said:
Guts was probably the one that used the wind/sword to fall into safety (Not the berserker armour) against Daiba in the port.

Yeah, he was conscious when he did that.

Death May Die said:
Does anyone think that Guts was well beyond Griffith with the first encounter with Zodd? Well, at least Guts withstood a hell a lot more than Griffith.

He did take more damage, although Griffith managed to slice off one of Zodd's massive arms with a sabre... That's quite something.

Death May Die said:
Of course, thats just a opinion. Point being maybe Guts was above Griffith not too long even after Guts and Griffith's first encounter. I mean, he was the work horse of the Band of the hawk. I wouldn't think it would of been too long till he was overshadowing Griffith in Skill and Strength.

Aazealh said:
It's hard to pinpoint an exact moment, and for that matter it might have been as early as during the 3 year gap in volume 5.

EndlessSky said:
I think it was most likely his time with the Band of the Hawk and being the Raid Leader.

Well that isn't very helpful because it was obviously during that time. I mean he was defeated, incorporated the Band of the Hawk and some years later left after winning a fight. His whole time between the loss and the win was as a member of the Hawks, and he became raid leader rather early (during the time gap in volume 5).

EndlessSky said:
I think it is even implied in the manga that was how he was able to do it

He was able to do it because he was simply better at that point, and he had become better through his rigorous training and numerous battles (what Casca reflects on). However that doesn't mean Griffith would have surpassed him if he had also been in every fight of the Band of the Hawk. I'm telling you that because the way you worded your sentence, it almost sounds like Guts won by using a trick or an unfair advantage, whereas it's more his natural progression as a fighter that placed him above everyone else.

EndlessSky said:
Then you also have to remember their first encounter wasn't exactly a one-sided fight either, Guts was able to hold his own quite well for a bit even though he ended up being defeated in the end. I would even go as far to say that they were pretty close skill wise with a sword during that time with Griffith being a bit stronger.

Yes, and Guts was wounded, don't forget that. Besides, at that time the age gap between them still mattered.

Shadax · September 9, 2008

One thing that struck me during re-reading all of the novels is the difference between Guts and Griffith in psychological growth.

Griffith stays pretty much the same. Things happen to him, but he is what he is pretty much. Guts on the other hand is constantly growing and overcomming stuff. I think that both Guts and Griffith have some serious psychological traumas/complexes (we know what the deal is with Guts, but the way Griffith is acting does not seem like a normal mentally healthy person either) But while Griffith just keeps following the track he has been put on (so far), Guts is constantly facing his issues and problems and growing stronger from it.

Zelz · September 10, 2008

Yes, I believe that is because Griffith knows exactly what he wants to accomplish without any doubt while Guts is still not really 100% sure on what he wants to do. That could be a reason why Guts is changing as he struggles and learns what he wants to do, while Griffith as I said has his mind set and also now that he is not human I doubt anything will really effect him except for the lingering demon child persona in the new body he took. During the time he was human he did have some degree of feelings and remember that once Guts joined him he changed and when Guts left he became depressed and did the whole Charlotte deal. So, I don't think it is fair to say when Griffith was human his mind and feelings didn't go under some development or changes. Of course it is a different story now that he is a member of Godhand.

@Aazealh, I didn't mean to imply Guts had an unfair advantage, I'm just saying that it could of have enhanced his progression so that he was able to surpass Griffith sooner. I agree that eventually he would have surpassed Griffith anyway. Although, you can't disregard all of the stuff he had to go through during the Hawks either though. And when you say "He was able to do it because he was simply better at that point, and he had become better through his rigorous training and numerous battles (what Casca reflects on)." that is excatly what I mean and I'm not saying Griffith would have become better if he fought in those battles either just that it enhanced Guts progression.

Shadax · September 13, 2008

Berserk is also a very psychological manga imho. Don't know how the creator views the godhand etc, but to me the godhand and apostles still seem very human. So even if Griff became a godhand, psychologically he still operates like a human for the most part. Just more in extremes.

What I meant earlier is that the way Griff has been acting and his dream and all, it seems more escapist. He never really seems to deal with any issues. That, for me, makes Griffith a very weak person in my eyes. He can have all the charisma in the world, but to me he is a bit of a fraud. Guts on the other hand is always facing his problems and issues, however ugly and hard to face they are and that is where his power is comming from.

Guts intestines · September 13, 2008

Shadax said:
Berserk is also a very psychological manga imho. Don't know how the creator views the godhand etc, but to me the godhand and apostles still seem very human. So even if Griff became a godhand, psychologically he still operates like a human for the most part. Just more in extremes.

Yeah the Godhand seem to have a lot in common with the Gods of greek mythology.

Walter · September 13, 2008

Guts' intestines said:
Yeah the Godhand seem to have a lot in common with the Gods of greek mythology.

Yeah Im always comparing Conrad to Bacchus :ganishka:

willowhugger · September 26, 2008

I think it's definitely a number of factors already mentioned. But here's my basic summary.

Original fight:

* Guts is wounded.
* Griffith is more skilled.
* Guts is an arrogant punk.
* Griffith is controlling the fight.
* Griffith is an adult, Guts is a half-grown teenager. Griffith is thus as strong as Guts even if teenage Guts is stronger than most of the other adults by far.

Second fight:

* Guts is an adult.
* Guts is stronger.
* Guts is composed.
* Guts is healthy.
* Guts has spent 5 years practicing.
* Griffith has spent 5 years potlicking.
* Griffith is overconfident.

As for the original fight, I disagree that Guts could have beaten him. In the anime, especially, it's clear that they make him out to fight like a madman who gets it done through sheer will. No one else really fights tactically and thus Griffith utterly owns Guts. It's only Guts rage and strength that throw Griffith off balance even for a moment.

I think that Griffith and Guts may have still been equals at that point, Griffith is psychologically incapable of dealing with that concept though so if they had fought again at that point then he would have lost repeatedly. Only if he understood Guts was his equal could he have had a chance to beat him.

Walter · September 26, 2008

willowhugger said:
As for the original fight, I disagree that Guts could have beaten him. In the anime, especially, it's clear that they make him out to fight like a madman who gets it done through sheer will. No one else really fights tactically and thus Griffith utterly owns Guts. It's only Guts rage and strength that throw Griffith off balance even for a moment.

I think that Griffith and Guts may have still been equals at that point, Griffith is psychologically incapable of dealing with that concept though so if they had fought again at that point then he would have lost repeatedly. Only if he understood Guts was his equal could he have had a chance to beat him.

Sorry, a little confused by your last paragraph here. Are you saying that Guts could have won in an arbitrary rematch directly after their FIRST fight? I don't see how he'd have much of an advantage one week after their fight.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't saying Griffith and Guts were equals during their SECOND fight. Got confused in your wording :???:

willowhugger · September 27, 2008

Walter said:
Sorry, a little confused by your last paragraph here. Are you saying that Guts could have won in an arbitrary rematch directly after their FIRST fight? I don't see how he'd have much of an advantage one week after their fight.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't saying Griffith and Guts were equals during their SECOND fight. Got confused in your wording

No, I pretty much had switched back to the topic of the second fight and their relationship as warriors as a whole by this point.

Of course, now Griffith is a Godhand and Guts is once more the underdog.

Walter · September 27, 2008

willowhugger said:
I think that Griffith and Guts may have still been equals at that point, Griffith is psychologically incapable of dealing with that concept though so if they had fought again at that point then he would have lost repeatedly. Only if he understood Guts was his equal could he have had a chance to beat him.

willowhugger said:
I pretty much had switched back to the topic of the second fight and their relationship as warriors as a whole by this point.

So then, you're saying Griffith and Guts were equals during the second fight? If so, I disagree. As even your bullet points stated, Guts dominated the fight, and truly won, without question.

When did Guts surpass Griffith?

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