Author Topic: Flesh + Blood  (Read 11499 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2006, 04:16:50 PM »
It's cool that you could watch it Oberi, however I don't think you seem to understand that as far as we know Flesh + Blood wasn't an actual inspiration for Berserk in general. Repeating: Berserk as a series wasn't inspired by Flesh + Blood, it doesn't base itself on it. So I don't think you should exert yourself to find connexions that are present in almost every depiction of a gritty medieval world. Miura just said once that Guts was physically (not in terms of character but only physical appearance) more or less based on Rutger Hauer, citing two movies in which he played where his character reminded him of Guts.

Quote from: Kentarou Miura
I wasn't really thinking of anybody at the time I created Guts. But if you're only talking about his looks and not about his personality then I guess Rutger Hauer was the model. I saw him playing a mercenary in a medieval movie, "Flesh & Blood" and I really liked him in that movie. He also played the lead in "Salute of the Jugger." It was an Sci Fi movie, but I thought the character he played was similar to Guts. And the main character from "Highlander" kind of reminds me of Guts. I think it had a lot to do with those cool collected type heroes I admired when I was in college.

And obviously, that physical resemblance isn't all that flagrant in the first place; as many noticed in the past it's easier to compare Rutger Hauer's character to Gambino. That's "officially" all there is to it.

I saw lots of similarities, mostly the idea of Martin and his "band" of mercenaries who just join in random fights and collect the spoils after.

You see, that's a good example of what I mean. People being mercenaries, that's pretty similar to the concept of mercenaries, heh? But beyond that obvious common theme it's actually quite different from Berserk's story, even regarding mercenary bands. Their goals, mentality, situation and attitudes are radically different.

One scene were a general or something asks martin to become a regular soldier and enjoy a decent pay ect. and martin turns him down "I'm just a merc" etc. seemed like it made it's way into berserk. I also made that mandragora connection, if there is one, and in that scene when those two are under the dead body digging, it reminded me of when guts was born around the hanging tree. There was some plague stuff in there too, which reminded me of shisu, especially since the king who had the plague in F&B was in the same kind of tent as shisu was.  The whole group in F&B too, the group of mercenaries that you come to know by the end of the movie, that all end up dieing tragically. O yea and that one guys outfit reminded me of Mozgus, you'll know it when you see it.

I can't see any of these things having a serious connection to Berserk. For similarities they're all really superficial and often very contextually different, not to mention common and recurring elements as far as medieval tales and fantasy go. And besides all of this, characters like Mozgus or the mandragora from the DC game were created over 10 years after Miura started drawing Berserk. That's not the kind of influence you should be expecting from this movie. It's nice to spot little things both works have in common since they share some themes, but to take things like tents as a sign of inspiration is pushing it.

Offline Locus of Agony

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 08:28:01 PM »
I haven't seen this film yet, but being raised on 80s fantasy films (Excalibur, Dragonslayer, Krull, Fire & Ice, etc.) I'll probably be right at home.

I agree it probably doesn't have anything to do with Berserk, but everyone (even Miura) gets his inspiration from somewhere, and if Flesh + Blood had even a little to do with it, I'll give it a watch.
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Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2007, 07:07:51 AM »
Now that i've rewatched this movie (after so many years) i have to disagree with Aazealh. There are alot of references that scream Berserk. You can find in this movie alot of characteristics that define the main characters in the manga (specially in the early years).
From the top of my head here are a few of them (spoilers ahead):

- When we are introduced to the mercenary band we can clearly see the parallel between this band and Gambino's group (Rutger Hauer as Gambino, both in attitude and in looks), and they even have a child boy with them. *hint*

- The hanging tree: when Steven and Agnes are eating the mandrake (a possible reference to the mandragora side-story in Berserk) bellow the dead bodies, and Steven says that when a man is hanged he cums, and that cum goes into the earth, and they eat the plant while they make vows of love. This is really symbolic and alludes to "life" bellow the hanging tree, like Guts birth in Berserk.

- One of the captains injures a nun during the raid to the castle in the beggining of the movie. He takes care of her, makes her his wife, although she lost her sanity because of the wound she suffered. This character only appears a couple of times, but when Steven's party goes into the retired captains house to get him back to battle (saying they will kill her if he doesnt join them), and this awkwardly mute, child-like insane woman appears, you can't help but think, this is Casca.

- Agnes rape scene setting. This one IS Casca's rape in Berserk. The way everyone fights to have her while they rip her clothes, and then Rutger Hauer comes into the scene like this imperial lord walking slowly, everyone goes quiet and he just says "lift her", they hold her in position and he rapes her, just like Griffith.

- The mercenery band started using only red in their clothes, but one day Martin (Hauers character) and Agnes show up in white, this shows how the leader, Martin, is different from the other mercs, and they all point it out by saying he's not like them (there's a parallel here to the band of the hawks views on Griffiths persona).

I can also talk about fate being a big part of the movie's story, in how the mercs band is led one place to the other by this saints statue that points the direction when some interesting events occur. And in how the mercs band fate is doomed since the beggining (shown in alot of symbolic shots), and they "all" die by the hand of the tortured Steven (some resemblence to Griffith here, albeit a bit loosely), although it's a little too far fetched. But the base is there, you can clearly see the inumerous parallels between Berserk and Flesh + Blood.
I also believe Rutger Hauer serves as a model for Gambino, Guts and even in some scenes, Griffith.
We can't dismiss this movie with the only comparison that Miura gave us, saying that only Rutgers looks are the model for Guts. As a creative "genius", Miura saw some really good ideas while watching this movie and implemented them in Berserk.
It's not literal, i'm talking concepts here.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 07:11:57 AM by NightCrawler »
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2007, 07:43:28 AM »
Now that i've rewatched this movie (after so many years) i have to disagree with Aazealh. There are alot of references that scream Berserk. You can find in this movie alot of characteristics that define the main characters in the manga (specially in the early years).

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

When we are introduced to the mercenary band we can clearly see the parallel between this band and Gambino's group (Rutger Hauer as Gambino, both in attitude and in looks), and they even have a child boy with them. *hint*

Wow, yeah, a mercenary band looks like another mercenary band. Amazing! They fight for money and travel on roads.

The hanging tree: when Steven and Agnes are eating the mandrake (a possible reference to the mandragora side-story in Berserk) bellow the dead bodies, and Steven says that when a man is hanged he cums, and that cum goes into the earth, and they eat the plant while they make vows of love. This is really symbolic and alludes to "life" bellow the hanging tree, like Guts birth in Berserk.

That's the basic legend of the mandragora. It's not at all specific to Flesh + Blood, and I don't think it's got anything to do with Guts' birth other than involving hanged people, really. It's a pretty big stretch.

One of the captains injures a nun during the raid to the castle in the beggining of the movie. He takes care of her, makes her his wife, although she lost her sanity because of the wound she suffered. This character only appears a couple of times, but when Steven's party goes into the retired captains house to get him back to battle (saying they will kill her if he doesnt join them), and this awkwardly mute, child-like insane woman appears, you can't help but think, this is Casca.

Personally I couldn't help but not notice a similarity. Not only are you gliding over the differences in the relationships here (and in the two characters as well), but you're also implying that this minor part of the movie influenced a major element in the manga that happened almost 10 years after it started. It's one thing to consider that an author might be inspired by a preexisting work when he starts his own, but it's another one entirely to think he'd still draw material from the same source even after years of doing his own thing.

Agnes rape scene setting. This one IS Casca's rape in Berserk. The way everyone fights to have her while they rip her clothes, and then Rutger Hauer comes into the scene like this imperial lord walking slowly, everyone goes quiet and he just says "lift her", they hold her in position and he rapes her, just like Griffith.

I also think you're overplaying the similarities here. It's true the fact a group of people are holding her for him can be reminiscent of the way the apostles held Casca for Femto (though it was just 2 tentacles in the manga), but there are major differences in how the actual rapes play out (i.e. they're nothing like each other), of the goal each serves (no one to watch the girl being hurt there), of the symbolism and of the context. Other than that, nothing looks like a rape more than another rape.

The mercenery band started using only red in their clothes, but one day Martin (Hauers character) and Agnes show up in white, this shows how the leader, Martin, is different from the other mercs, and they all point it out by saying he's not like them (there's a parallel here to the band of the hawks views on Griffiths persona).

I'm not sure the parallel is very strong; they don't say it in the same context at all. Griffith is admired and put above the rest of them, while Martin makes the others bitter by setting himself apart and above them. And it's his undoing, eventually.

I can also talk about fate being a big part of the movie's story, in how the mercs band is led one place to the other by this saints statue that points the direction when some interesting events occur.

As opposed to Griffith having a firmly set objective and never deviating from its course. Him and his men being successful and gaining rank and popularity instead of turning into scoundrels at the first occasion and following fake, arbitrary omens. I don't think that's proving your point, objectively.

And in how the mercs band fate is doomed since the beggining (shown in alot of symbolic shots), and they "all" die by the hand of the tortured Steven (some resemblence to Griffith here, albeit a bit loosely), although it's a little too far fetched. But the base is there, you can clearly see the inumerous parallels between Berserk and Flesh + Blood.

Yes, far-fetched, isn't it? It's easy to notice similarities in things when you completely obscure all the discrepancies. That's the problem when you're introduced to one thing as directly relating to another. You tend to see connexions that might not exist.

As a creative "genius", Miura saw some really good ideas while watching this movie and implemented them in Berserk.
It's not literal, i'm talking concepts here.

But all throughout your post, you only point out either very literal elements ("this is Casca") or vague concepts that are common to a lot of works taking place in that setting. Mercenary groups? Rape? Mandragora? People being doomed? I sure agree that both works have those general "concepts" in common, but then the list of those that do is very long. Miura was certainly influenced by the movie to some extent, but unless he specifies it, I see no reason to assume it was a stronger influence than the many other things that inspired him and that also feature those same elements.

Offline Walter

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2007, 08:10:08 AM »
Clearly you DO think it's a literal influence, with all those detailed comparisons. You could probably find instances of Berserk in Home Alone if you used a magnifying glass.

I think the two strongest influences on Berserk from this movie were the atmosphere of the world depicted in the movie and the resemblance of Gambino to Rutger Hauer - despite Miura's own claim that he had more of an influence on Guts' character design.

I think the atmosphere itself is what's so convincingly familiar, and may be what misled you into your uh... detailed scenarios above.

PS:
- Agnes rape scene setting. This one IS Casca's rape in Berserk. The way everyone fights to have her while they rip her clothes, and then Rutger Hauer comes into the scene like this imperial lord walking slowly, everyone goes quiet and he just says "lift her", they hold her in position and he rapes her, just like Griffith.
I'm laughing dude, this is funny stuff. Just like Griffith!  :guts:
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Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2007, 10:10:45 AM »
Clearly you DO think it's a literal influence, with all those detailed comparisons. You could probably find instances of Berserk in Home Alone if you used a magnifying glass.

I think the two strongest influences on Berserk from this movie were the atmosphere of the world depicted in the movie and the resemblance of Gambino to Rutger Hauer - despite Miura's own claim that he had more of an influence on Guts' character design.

I think the atmosphere itself is what's so convincingly familiar, and may be what misled you into your uh... detailed scenarios above.

PS: I'm laughing dude, this is funny stuff. Just like Griffith!  :guts:

Why do you think it's funny? Rewatch that scene, i dare you, if you don't find a clear resemblence with Casca's rape, you're being obtuse. The setting is there, it's clear.
I never saw a rape scene presented the way it was in Flesh+Blood, besides Berserk.

Btw, how much info do we got on Miura's influences? Not much, so if we pick the ones he talked about (like this movie) and analyze them, we can see more into it. So i think it was of no need for you to throw some stupid analogy (like Home Alone) to my description of the scenes.
So given in mind that Miura mentioned this movie, and considering the medieval setting and all those scenes/characters that i mentioned, you can't find more similarities to Berserk...at least in this medium.

Again, just rewatch them...
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Walter

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2007, 11:24:51 AM »
Btw, how much info do we got on Miura's influences? Not much, so if we pick the ones he talked about (like this movie) and analyze them, we can see more into it. So i think it was of no need for you to throw some stupid analogy (like Home Alone) to my description of the scenes.
And clearly you missed my point: you're analyzing it TOO much.
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Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2007, 12:05:30 PM »
Yeah i know if i didnt put it into context, i wouldnt have seen so many similarities (except for the rape scene, which is uncany; and probably the hanging tree, that would've made me think of Berserk too). But then again, if Miura hadnt mentioned this particular movie, we wouldnt be here discussing it. That's what forums are for right?
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Locus of Agony

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2007, 06:27:26 PM »
I also saw the movie recently and while I agree with Nightcrawler that Miura may (MAY) have taken some of his concepts from Flesh + Blood, or more to be more precise, may have found some inspiration in th film, I can't say their directly related.

The rape scene comparison actually seems the weakest of the ones you mentioned Nightcrawler, after all I didn't see one solitary tentacle monster there. :void:

I will say when I first saw the priest of the mercenary group I was strongly reminded of Mozgus, but still these are abstract ideas that may or may not have had a profound impact on Miura's work.
For every single day you lived, for every fragment of your broken dream, the night is so evanescing.
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Offline Zerk Fan

Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2007, 08:37:13 PM »
I could see how Miura might of been inspired by Flesh + Blood :???:... Also he clearly liked some of the helmets/headgear from The Blood of Heroes.

Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2007, 01:34:37 AM »
I also saw the movie recently and while I agree with Nightcrawler that Miura may (MAY) have taken some of his concepts from Flesh + Blood, or more to be more precise, may have found some inspiration in th film, I can't say their directly related.

The rape scene comparison actually seems the weakest of the ones you mentioned Nightcrawler, after all I didn't see one solitary tentacle monster there. :void:

I will say when I first saw the priest of the mercenary group I was strongly reminded of Mozgus, but still these are abstract ideas that may or may not have had a profound impact on Miura's work.


Again, i was talking concepts, not literal conversions of events and characters. If you replace the mercs in that scene with the apostles in the Eclipse, you see how their attitude towards the victim is the same (ripping her clothes and fighting for her), and when their leader comes, they all stop in silence, and lift her to his command, like an offer. This strucked me, cause ive seen countless movies, but never did i saw a rape scene presented like that one. I believe Miura liked that scene, and used it for his creative purposes (like many others in that movie). It's not really far fetched to think he used these ideas, even subconsciously.

About that priest clothing looking very similar to Mozgus, i actually thought of that too, but since im not aware of the type of clothing priests ware in that period, i didnt want to comment.
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Walter

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2007, 06:46:21 AM »
I'm pretty rusty on the movie, but doesn't the girl use the rape to her advantage? She manipulates Rutger Hauer's character through it... Not very Casca-like, really...
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Offline NightCrawler

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2007, 07:02:03 AM »
I'm pretty rusty on the movie, but doesn't the girl use the rape to her advantage? She manipulates Rutger Hauer's character through it... Not very Casca-like, really...

Yes you're right, she does eventualy pretends to be tough, but it only happens a bit after he penetrates her. I was just referring to the whole setting that precedes the rape.
Berserk isn't really "dark fantasy" either. It's plain fantasy
Miura has been very protective of Berserk

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2008, 04:25:33 AM »
Just picked this movie up at the local Barnes & Noble for nine bucks.  I'm gonna boot up the PS3 right now.  Can't wait to see it.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2008, 09:15:45 AM »
Just picked this movie up at the local Barnes & Noble for nine bucks.  I'm gonna boot up the PS3 right now.  Can't wait to see it.

You haven't already? Well, you're in for a treat! :guts:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2008, 11:19:13 AM »
You haven't already? Well, you're in for a treat! :guts:

Nope, although I've wanted to ever since I first read this thread.  I really liked it.  Like what's been said about The Devils, there were many superficial similarities, but as you've said Aaz, they've more to do with the period rather than being possible inspirations for similar scenes in Berserk.  Nevertheless, Miura has good taste.

Offline A.C

Re: Flesh + Blood
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2008, 10:35:28 AM »
I also liked Flesh + Blood. Still have yet to see The Blood of Heroes though.