The Millennium Harbinger

Walter

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After reading 298 after such a long time away from Berserk, many images rushed into my head, primarily those introduced in volume 10 during Charlotte's explanation of how Midland was founded. The following is an exact transcription of Dark Horse's translation of that scene, juxtaposed with images of what I see as reoccurances of that empire 1000 years ago. This isn't a new concept by any stretch of the imagination. We all saw this coming, but it's good to review your history in order to understand what's happening now.

However, events don't always happen exactly as they did. After all, causality is a spiral, not a circle. These events aren't perfectly congruent, nor do I think they were meant to be. But there are overarching themes that fit both timelines. I'm sure not everyone will agree with some of the parallels I make, nor do I claim to have all the answers here, but I'm already excitedly anticipating discussion from this.  :guts:

Charlotte: In those days, this continent saw constant warring between small city-states and different tribes. Apparently it was an age of rival warlords.
Continuous warfare ruined the land, and due to food shortages, plague and the like, it's said that fully a third of the population died.
Guts: (Doesn't sound too different from nowadays ... No progress).
I actually split this comparison two ways. The warring can easily be connected to the 100-years war:
war.jpg


... followed much later by plague, starvation and rampant death.
plague.jpg

Charlotte: But finally, someone appeared who put an end to the warring age.
Supreme King Gaiseric -- He was an emperor able to subjugate dozens of nations and establish an age-old empire encompassing the entire continent for the first and only time in history.
alliance.jpg
No one knows what country he came from or when or how he raised an army.
No records remain whatsoever regarding his account prior to his arrival on the stage of history.
Guts: (Sounds kind of like Griffith).
Charlotte: From the merciless and ruthless way of fighting, the emperor would use against those enemies who opposed him, it seems he was given such names as Demon King, and The King of Galloping Death. But there was one other reason for this.
Whenever Emperor Gaiseric went into battle... he would don a dreadful helmet shaped after a skull.

gallopingdeath.jpg


Griffith is actually called the God of Death on the battlefield in volume 5. Of course, Ganishka is also referred to as a Demon King in volume 27, and thus the murky water begins.

Judo: Ah, that one I've heard of. The fairy tale of the Skull King.
According to legend, I think he gathered workers from all over the empire, and forced them through hard labor to build a large capital city.
Then the king lived in the utmost extravagance while levying heavier and heavier taxes on the people. The city ended up becoming a melting pot of feasting and pleasure ... at least I think.
No pic for this, this could be alluding to a possible reconstruction of a capital city (Falconia?) in the future, since Wyndham is being destroyed now.

But God finally decided he couldn't condone the Skull King's deeds and sent five angels. By lightning and great earthquakes, the city was erased from the face of the earth, without a trace in the span of a night.
Casca: Weren't there four of them?
Judo: Oh, yeah?
Five? Four? How about just one really BIG one?  :griff:
angel.jpg

Obviously, this scenario is a little more complicated. Wyndham is being decimated by Ganishka, and by the end of the night, it will have been wiped off the map. An "angel" did come to save the land from the tyranny of the evil king. He just wasn't the one destroying the city.

Judo: But what does a fairy tale have to do with this hole?
Charlotte: It's not just a fairy tale. At least, the city did exist.
Apparently the name of the city meant "Land in the middle of nations." So it received the name "Midland." And that city that fell into the ground by natural calamity ... is said to be sleeping still, just as it was then, in a place untouched by either sunlight or wind ... at the bottom of this hole.
Guts: Is that true?
Charlotte: All of that was taught to me by my history teacher. I don't know if it's true or not.
But it seems that after the emperor's death and the collapse of the imperial capital, the continent gradually became the territory covered with assorted countries we know today. The emperor had no children, so it isn't a direct line, but it is said that even out of all those countries, the Midland royal family is the only one that carries Gaiseric's blood.
It is said the Tower of Rebirth was built in order to seal that unclean past.

The same tower where Charlotte was held prisoner, and that was later possibly decimated by Ganishka.
tower.jpg

For convenience sake, click here for the full transcription without any of these bullshit images.
 
G

Gangstap

Guest
Wow very very interesting, I need to re-read everything again. So, after all that evidence, we can see the..."History repeats itself." Just wondering, were you comparing Supreme King Gaiseric to Griffith or Ganishka?
 
G

Gangstap

Guest
Aazealh said:
Please... Just call him Emperor Gaiseric.

Lol my fault, I didnt know how to spell his name so i just copied it from Walter's post.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Gangstap said:
Lol my fault, I didnt know how to spell his name so i just copied it from Walter's post.

Well it's not wrong (an exact translation of the Japanese text), it's just that it sounds a bit awkward.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Gangstap said:
Just wondering, were you comparing Supreme King Gaiseric to Griffith or Ganishka?
Like I tried to explain earlier, this isn't a completely clean comparison. It doesn't work by a one-to-one ratio, but together they are each playing roles in a repeating history. It gets murky if you try to assign them separate roles. To paraphrase Flora, history may repeat itself, but things wont' necessarily happen exactly as they once did (causality is a spiral, not a circle).
 
Thanks for taking the time to do this Walter, a very enjoyable summary/comparison. It is a bit strange though, the one that seems most like Emperor Gaiseric is Griffith yet it's Guts that is following a path similar to the Skullknight's. If Skullknight was Emperor Gaiseric, was he an apostle or was he a human? A human would have difficulty in accomplishing what Emperor Gaiseric did. If he was an apostle once (or maybe even a God Hand), that would open some pretty interesting doors for speculation. More specifically, the opportunity for Griffith to become an even more complex character.. should his kingdom (and dream) come crashing down. Or could it be that Ganishka is the most like Emperor Gaiseric? With Griffith representing the angel(s) that destroys his empire.

Causality is not a circle or even a spiral it's more like a f#ckin labyrinth. :puck:
Just when you think you can tie two threads together, you realize that there is also a third and identical piece that could also match.
 

Walter

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Yeah, I don't think I'm alone in viewing Gaiseric as a sort of hybrid between Guts and Griffith (or rather, Griffith and Guts separately followed the same path Gaiseric did before they all diverge) as far as his history is concerned. There are easy parallels to make between the three figures, though really I think Guts has more in common with what Gaiseric became - the Skull Knight.

But the main purpose of this thread was to draw the parallel between what happened to the capital city 1000 years ago versus what's happening to Wyndham now. Mainly, its destruction at the hand of supernatural forces (we're getting to that point anyway) and the overthrow of a demon king.

That being said, we're also in a bit of unwritten history now, because what happened after Gaiseric's reign was overthrown? Well... the kingdom was splintered, but no heroes we know of rose up until the 100 years' war -- which to me implies Griffith's rule could be a unique occurrence in this otherwise cyclical history. Or, perhaps the evil king role hasn't yet been played out yet through Ganishka.
 
Walter said:
That being said, we're also in a bit of unwritten history now, because what happened after Gaiseric's reign was overthrown? Well... the kingdom was splintered, but no heroes we know of rose up until the 100 years' war -- which to me implies Griffith's rule could be a unique occurrence in this otherwise cyclical history. Or, perhaps the evil king role hasn't yet been played out yet through Ganishka.

Very interesting idea and definitely something to chew on.
Is causality restricted to one spiral or numerous? Could Griffith's rule be the beginning of a new spiral altogether?

Another completely different possibility is that this comparison is premature. Ganishka may not represent anything more than just another nation that Griffith will have to conquer to build his kingdom. It could be Guts that will represent those angels, maybe with Schierke summoning elemental spirits to help destroy Griffith's kingdom. When she summoned that water spirit, the Lady of the Depths ( according to the encyclopedia) at Enoch to wash away the trolls and that ogre, I believe she said something about the spirit being like the angels in the Holy See's scriptures. This theory would allow for Guts final confrontation with Griffith to more or less mirror what happened to Emperor Gaiseric's kingdom.
 

Walter

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Ramen4ever said:
Very interesting idea and definitely something to chew on.
Is causality restricted to one spiral or numerous? Could Griffith's rule be the beginning of a new spiral altogether?
Well, it's just an allegory Flora used to differenciate the flow of events from a simple 1:1 ratio to a 1:1.11111111 ratio :guts: Anyway, everything we're seeing happen in Wyndham is within Causality's plans, I mean, it's one of the culminating events of the past 1000 years of planning. And I don't think it will end here.

Ganishka may not represent anything more than just another nation that Griffith will have to conquer to build his kingdom.
Maybe .. but the Kushan empire isn't on the main continent. I may be splitting hairs, but that would be different from what happened in Gaiseric's time.

It could be Guts that will represent those angels, maybe with Schierke summoning elemental spirits to help destroy Griffith's kingdom. When she summoned that water spirit, Lady of the Depths ( according to the encyclopedia) at Enoch to wash away the trolls and that ogre, I believe she said something about the spirit being like the angels in the Holy See's scriptures. This theory would allow for Guts final confrontation with Griffith to more or less mirror what happened to Emperor Gaiseric's kingdom.
Well, in that case, then we'll see two reoccurances of the destruction of Gaiseric's capital city within about 10 years of each other. I think the "final battle" will be on a really different scale than this -- something unprecedented. It's an idea I've had since we're already seeing this huge event NOW, before Griff's crowning.
 

Black_Devil

Punos Rey
Very interesting thread Walter. My pov is that the story of Gaiseric, potentially differs starkly with what truly occured. Stories tend to change and lose their facts as they are passed along more and more, such as a game we all might've played early on, the telephone game. Especially when you look at the nature of those "angels"(who are most likely the Godhand), and the character of the Skull Knight(who's most likely Gaiseric), several things don't fit together. Even if Gaiseric was a figure full of hubris as the story would like us to believe, I don't think he was the dastardly king he's been made out to be.

There's also the character Aolsier(Aaz will kill me for mispelling that I'm sure. :judo:) when/if he returns to the story(assuming he is even still living.) He might portray more parallels with Gaiseric/SK(and maybe even Guts) than Ganishka/Griffith do. But Ganishka/Griffith certainly seem to be embodying different aspects of the story Gaiseric, and the 'melting pot of pleasure' might be what occurs at the onset of Griffith's rule, only as a veil for the nightmare that's sure to come.
 

Walter

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Black_Devil said:
Very interesting thread Walter. My pov is that the story of Gaiseric, potentially differs starkly with what truly occured. Stories tend to change and lose their facts as they are passed along more and more, such as a game we all might've played early on, the telephone game. Especially when you look at the nature of those "angels"(who are most likely the Godhand), and the character of the Skull Knight(who's most likely Gaiseric), several things don't fit together. Even if Gaiseric was a figure full of hubris as the story would like us to believe, I don't think he was the dastardly king he's been made out to be.
Yeah Im aware the fairy tale is very likely exaggerated from what actually occurred, especially given what we know of Skull Knight's demeanor. He doesn't come across as an evil guy that would host pleasure feasts. Gaiseric's name was probably tarnished over the centuries after the death and destruction wrought by supernatural forces (or, to step even further from solid speculation ground, his reputation was tarnished by a group of zealots led by a wise man who would one day become Void! Just like in my fanfic!). But it doesn't change the fact that there ARE some stark similarities to what's happening now.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up yet -- the bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth are burned and branded. That's a huge x-factor in these plans and doesn't fit anywhere in my above analysis. It implies that the kingdom fell after being sacrificed and the carnage was likely the result of a sacrificial ceremony, on par in scale with the millennium incarnation ceremony and the birth of a God Hand.

There's also the character Aolsier(Aaz will kill me for mispelling that I'm sure. :judo:
Seeing as how Aolsier only exists because of a misspelling, I don't think he'll fault you for it  :badbone:
 
Black_Devil said:
Especially when you look at the nature of those "angels"(who are most likely the Godhand), and the character of the Skull Knight(who's most likely Gaiseric), several things don't fit together. Even if Gaiseric was a figure full of hubris as the story would like us to believe, I don't think he was the dastardly king he's been made out to be.

Walter said:
Yeah Im aware the fairy tale is very likely exaggerated from what actually occurred, especially given what we know of Skull Knight's demeanor. He doesn't come across as an evil guy that would host pleasure feasts. Gaiseric's name was probably tarnished over the centuries after the death and destruction wrought by supernatural forces. But it doesn't change the fact that there ARE some stark similarities to what's happening now.

Would you guys agree that, after conquering so much territory and building a pride-and-joy, massive city that's second to none, only to have it destroyed and whatever happened to turn him physically into Skull Knight... and then live for one thousand years... may have changed his views/attitude?

I, personally, think the tale of his original, human personality is probably accurate. At least, I'd like it to be accurate.
 

Black_Devil

Punos Rey
^Then explain how the Godhand are angelic, and why there's branded corpses at the bottom of the Tower. Surely, the Godhand are divine, but their very nature completely contradicts the "punishing angel" image the story gives them.

Interesting mention about the zealots Walter, could they(if later included in the story) be the followers of the Wise Man imprisioned by Gaiseric, and whom would be sacrificed by said Wise Man to become Void?
 

Scorpio

Courtesy of Grail's doodling.
Everything was matching quite nicely until the point where you admitted it gets a little fuzzy. I'm of the opinion that you're jumping the gun a little. Griffith really doesn't have an empire to be destroyed yet, just an assortment of backers. The destruction of Wyndham is also important, because if the Tower of Rebirth, or the thing that is sealing the unclean past, is destroyed, thats a major indication that history is indeed repeating itself. The unclean past is about to spill forth. Basically, after reading your first post, I definitely think you're on the right path Walter, I just think we need to slow down a little bit and let these events unfold (though I guess this is the speculation nation). For lack of a better analogy, its like carefully working out half a sudoku puzzle only to start assigning random numbers simply because they might work.

[Insert unwitty comment about Aolsier coming back and retaking the DS here]
 
Black_Devil said:
^Then explain how the Godhand are angelic, and why there's branded corpses at the bottom of the Tower. Surely, the Godhand are divine, but their very nature completely contradicts the "punishing angel" image the story gives them.

Keep in mind that these people consider the four elemental kings to be angels... I wouldn't take that description too literally (as in, how could they say that when they're not white-winged babies playing harps?!).

Actually, if Emperor Gaiseric is oppressive than I'm sure the onlookers would consider any otherworldy entities that come down and rid them of their tyrant to be angels. Remember that you're looking at it from the ignorant eyes of the common people. If they saw this, they'd surely think God had sent angels to punish their ruler.

I'm not sure what the branded corpses has to do with the man's personality... Actually, I'm not sure what any of that has to do with his personality.
 

Black_Devil

Punos Rey
^What it has to do with his personality, was that if he was such an evil figure, why is there evidence of a contrary demonic power at work here? That's one of the aspects of the story that was never fully covered, why there's branded corpses at the bottom of the tower. Unless Gaiseric was an apostle or some higher level spiritual entity, that means some other person was there that triggered the appearance of the four 'angels', and maybe the oncoming of a new godhand. Gaiseric already had the world conquered, what purpose would sacrificing everyone to destroy his own kingdom serve?
 
Black_Devil said:
^What it has to do with his personality, was that if he was such an evil figure, why is there evidence of a contrary demonic power at work here? That's one of the aspects of the story that was never fully covered, why there's branded corpses at the bottom of the tower. Unless Gaiseric was an apostle or some higher level spiritual entity, that means some other person was there that triggered the appearance of the four 'angels', and maybe the oncoming of a new godhand. Gaiseric already had the world conquered, what purpose would sacrificing everyone to destroy his own kingdom do?

Are you saying that anyone who isn't a saint is friendly with the Idea of Evil/God Hand/Apostles? Lets say you and I are childhood friends. We're always together. I grow up to be a merciless, bloody tyrant who bathes in the blood of virgins. You grow up to be an old man who feels like he missed out on his youth planning my campaigns. In your moment of need, you accidently summon the God Hand who turn you into an apostle, sacrificing what you care for the most, me. Does that mean I was a great guy?

Besides, he wasn't that evil (I wouldn't even consider him evil, actually, but that's because if I were in his position, I'd do the same thing). So he used slavery to build a city and buried his subjects in taxes to pay for his drunken orgies, is that comparable to someone performing mass murder or molesting children?

Lets put it this way. Lets look at the logic of it. Arguably, every major character in Berserk has evolved as far as their attitudes and outlooks on life are concerned. Guts. Farnese. Serpico. Schierke. Griffith. Even minor characters like the population of Enoch village have changed. You're telling me that they changed, but a man who has lived for over a thousand years, done and seen more than probably anyone else in the world, and turned from a human into Skull Knight is more than likely the same he has always been?
 

Walter

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El Gaucho Rojo said:
Would you guys agree that, after conquering so much territory and building a pride-and-joy, massive city that's second to none, only to have it destroyed and whatever happened to turn him physically into Skull Knight... and then live for one thousand years... may have changed his views/attitude?
Scorpio said:
Basically, after reading your first post, I definitely think you're on the right path Walter, I just think we need to slow down a little bit and let these events unfold (though I guess this is the speculation nation). For lack of a better analogy, its like carefully working out half a sudoku puzzle only to start assigning random numbers simply because they might work.
I completely and wholeheartedly agree with both above statements. Generating these types of posts is what I was aiming for here. There's clearly no one "right" answer yet, but I'm just trying to assemble what we know of the past with what's occurring now.
 

Black_Devil

Punos Rey
El Gaucho Rojo said:
Lets put it this way. Lets look at the logic of it. Arguably, every major character in Berserk has evolved as far as their attitudes and outlooks on life are concerned. Guts. Farnese. Serpico. Schierke. Griffith. Even minor characters like the population of Enoch village have changed. You're telling me that they changed, but a man who has lived for over a thousand years, done and seen more than probably anyone else in the world, and turned from a human into Skull Knight is more than likely the same he has always been?

Good and well made point. That too is an interesting case, but my main point was that going off what we KNOW of the creatures mentioned(The Godhand), the factuality of aspects in that story comes under serious question.
 
^^^
Berserk has always been a little hazy with what is considered good and what is evil. Just look at Guts. He's the protagonist and we consider him good.. most of the time. Yet he's a murderer, and that's lightly put. Also, History is written by the victors. Emperor Gaiseric could have been a god send, ending the feuds between warring states. Yet remembered as a tyrant. One man cannot save a population from plague and starvation and after a brutal war, both are quite common.

Not to mention that the Holy See Religious Order is very dominant in the world of Berserk, at least in the countries that Guts has so far been to. Interestingly enough their symbol has an uncanny resemblance to the brand. It's been speculated that the wiseman from Mozgus's tale is now Void. Void may have been the very founder of the Holy See Religious Order. As far as we've seen, only Void can mark sacrifices with the Brand. In such a scenario, it's not far fetched to think that his religious order made Emperor Gaiseric seem like a tyrant. Especially if it's true that he was tortured because of Emperor Gaiseric. Void's peeled back face, exposed brain, shewn shut eyes and even his stretched arms could support this. I'm sure after a 1000 years of teaching that to the nobility and the common people, it became unquestionable that Emperor Gaiseric was a tyrant who ordered a wiseman tortured to death.. and he was punished by angels.

The fact that Slan, Ubik and Conrad were most likely not even alive 1000 years ago would support the theory that the Wiseman was actually a magic user. And the angels were elemental spirits or something along those lines. During the eclipse Void uses magic to redirect Sk's attack. And as I said a few lines above, so far only Void can brand sacrifices. All supporting the idea that he was/is a magic user.

Highly speculative.. I know.
 

Walter

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Ramen4ever said:
Emperor Gaiseric could have been a god send, ending the feuds between warring states. Yet remembered as a tyrant.
Hey now, Griffith is technically a "god send." But you wouldn't want to toss ol' Gairry in that bag would you?  :badbone:

Interestingly enough their symbol has an uncanny resemblance to the brand.
And the double helix-esque symbol on both the Holy See's symbol and the brand bear a resemblance to the strands tying the Idea of Evil to the rest of the world.

Void may have been the very founder of the Holy See Religious Order. As far as we've seen, only Void can mark sacrifices with the Brand. In such a scenario, it's not far fetched to think that his religious order made Emperor Gaiseric seem like a tyrant. Especially if it's true that he was tortured because of Emperor Gaiseric. Void's peeled back face, exposed brain, shewn shut eyes and even his stretched arms could support this. I'm sure after a 1000 years of teaching that to the nobility and the common people, it became unquestionable that Emperor Gaiseric was a tyrant who ordered a wiseman tortured to death.. and he was punished by angels.
All excellent points. The Holy See and their doctrine does indeed hold a heavy sway over the affairs of humans, especially after what we just witnessed with the Pontiff essentially paving the way for Griffith's supremacy over the other Alliance armies.

The fact that Slan, Ubik and Conrad were most likely not even alive 1000 years ago would support the theory that the Wiseman was actually a magic user. And the angels were elemental spirits or something along those lines. During the eclipse Void uses magic to redirect Sk's attack. And as I said a few lines above, so far only Void can brand sacrifices. All supporting the idea that he was/is a magic user.
Well, I don't think Void necessarily used "magic" per se at the Eclipse. During those ceremonies, it appears all God Hand members have control over the environment. That's not to say Im excluding that Void as a human was a magic user, his apparent understandings of the world seem to imply it. For example, he was the first person to refer to the Idea of Evil being a human creation.
 
Walter said:
Hey now, Griffith is technically a "god send." But you wouldn't want to toss ol' Gairry in that bag would you? :badbone:

Maybe not the best choice of words on my part.

Walter said:
and the brand bear a resemblance to the strands tying the Idea of Evil to the rest of the world.

Which could suggest that the wiseman's "god" was actually the Idea of Evil. As a magic user he would of had an understanding of the different planes of existence. Or more specifically, the different layers like the Vortex and the Abyss. Now I recall Flora saying something about this in volume 24. She says that if you go deeper then the Vortex of Souls, you wouldn't be able to return alive, I believe she's referring to the Abyss. Now this is speculation of course but what if Void, as an incredible magic user traveled beyond the Vortex of souls. If he met with the Idea of Evil or if the Idea of Evil made a bargain with him. For example, he could have revenge on Emperor Gaiseric by destroying his empire or giving Void the power to destroy his empire. The bargain could of involved sacrificing something. If Void was indeed the founder of the Holy See Religious Order or the leader of any fanatic order, he could of sacrificed his followers. Which would explain the bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth. The wiseman could of returned (for at least sometime) from the Abyss.. but not as a human. :void:

There are a lot of coincidences. Plus the Holy See Religious Order is in a way serving the Idea of Evil's plans. The religious order's very existence is helping.. or feeding the Idea of Evil. The order's fanatics are unforgiving and execute people for even the suspicion of being a witch or heretic. Either you blindly believe or you die.

On a side note.. the wiseman could of traveled to the Abyss willingly, unwillingly or even near death during his torture? Searching for his God to ask for help.. and finding the Idea of Evil.

This theory would definitely make for an interesting comparison.
 

Walter

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Ramen4ever said:
Which could suggest that the wiseman's "god" was actually the Idea of Evil.
The wise man could very well have had his own preconceptions of "god," but may not have known exactly what it was he was praying to.

I actually don't think anyone but the God Hand are aware of the Idea of Evil specifically, and I'd welcome some refuting evidence if it's out there. It's just a hunch I got after what Flora said about something lying even deeper in the Abyss, but even she sounded unsure. I can't imagine how anyone else would come into contact with it except through the process of a God Hand's birth, in which they're brought right to its doorstep.

he could have revenge on Emperor Gaiseric by destroying his empire or giving Void the power to destroy his empire. The bargain could have involved sacrificing something. If Void was indeed the founder of the Holy See Religious Order or the leader of any fanatic order, he could of sacrificed his followers. Which would explain the bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth. The wiseman could have returned (for at least sometime) from the Abyss.. but not as a human.
There are so many unknowns here it's difficult for me to take this large leap of faith and say it sounds reasonable, but I do like the idea of it. It fits abstractly with my own thoughts on how this all went down, but pinning down these details is nearly impossible to do at this stage in the story. I just honestly don't feel that comfortable with it. It's partly why I started to write a Gaiseric fanfic all those years ago - so I could freely explore my own theories within the bounds of fiction, without having to retrofit it into the canon.

I suppose I somewhat feel that if we stray too far and get too deep in these wild speculations, we may not be able to return... alive! :void:

I guess all I can really add is that I foresee Void's sacrifice to be something along the same lines as the Beherit-Apostle's -- something massive enough to level a city (/world).

the Holy See Religious Order is in a way serving the Idea of Evil's plans. The religious order's very existence is helping.. or feeding the Idea of Evil. The order's fanatics are unforgiving and execute people for even the suspicion of being a witch or heretic. Either you blindly believe or you die.
Yeah, their doctrine is diametrically opposed to the "good guys" aka Flora's view on the world. The Holy See's ignorance is also a profoundly human construct too. Most people are content within the bounds of ignorance, judgement and persecution that the Holy See spreads. So, it's really the perfect vessel for enslaving the human race to the Idea of Evil's (I mean, humanity's!) will.

On a side note.. the wiseman could of traveled to the Abyss willingly, unwillingly or even near death during his torture? Searching for his God to ask for help.. and finding the Idea of Evil.
I really like this idea. I've often thought about how the Idea of Evil was formed, given what we know of how it was created. My thoughts keep drifting back to three loose concepts: Void, before he was a member of God Hand, dark magic, and the sorrows of a broken kingdom. I hope Miura fills in those gaps for us eventually :miura:
 
Walter said:
I actually don't think anyone but the God Hand are aware of the Idea of Evil specifically, and I'd welcome some refuting evidence if it's out there. It's just a hunch I got after what Flora said about something lying even deeper in the Abyss, but even she sounded unsure. I can't imagine how anyone else would come into contact with it except through the process of a God Hand's birth, in which they're brought right to its doorstep.

The reason I thought it possible was because of the brand itself. If it was Void that designed it or created it, then it's reasonable to assume that he was an amazing magic user. Removing it was beyond Flora's abilities and considering that she was supposed to be an amazing magic user herself, that would put Void's abilities on a completely different scale. Now maybe he only got the power after he became a member of the God Hand. But if he had the abilities before, then he may have been able to travel to the Abyss through magic, maybe with the assistance of the full moon. Is it possible for someone to willingly try and travel beyond the Vortex of Souls, to the Abyss?

Another idea I've been thinking about is what usually occurs to Schierke. When she goes into one of her trances she sometimes gets overwhelmed or goes to a point where it's difficult to come back. Now I know it's not the same but the concept itself is what I'm trying to get at. Now this is just one of many scenarios but if the Wiseman was tortured horrendously. His face was peeled back his eyes sewn shut and maybe even his skull was opened. Well he may have gone into a trance or a deep unconsciousness and his astral body could of traveled deep into the Vortex of Souls. Maybe his desire for revenge or his search for "god" allowed him to make it to the Abyss and meet with the Idea of Evil. Or if we consider causality, the Idea of Evil may have masterminded the whole incident. Establishing it's first "God Hand" member.

There are too many scenarios but some are reasonable. Another interesting thing is that Mozgus knew of the story of the Wiseman. Why did the wiseman go down in history? Even more so, why is he (or the story) remembered by a prominent religious fanatic like Mozgus who even calls him a Wiseman? The wiseman must of been someone important to be remembered as such. Especially after 1000 years.

On a side note, In the second image posted from the top. The one describing plague and death. On the middle left there bodies that are practically identical to what Mozgus did to his victims. The bodies are on wheels. This may be a visual reference to a religious inquisition.
 
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