The Millennium Harbinger
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Walter said:Yeah that's what I've been presuming for a while now, since we first saw Schierke traverse the astral plane in vol 25. Glad you're on board too
I just wish there were more people on board with this thread. More opinions and theories would be very welcome.
Oh, one thing I forgot to comment on. The theory that the wiseman traversed the astral planes.. maybe even willingly seeking out "God" or for whatever purpose. Revenge? The funny coincidence is that Ganishka just attempted something similar a few episodes back with his Daka factory.
I'll just let that idea marinate for a while.Walter said:
I see, thanks for the correction.
Okin said:Wow, I always saw a connection between Emperor Gaiseric and other strong warriors, but never Griffith or Ganishka for some reason. I guess the wavy hair and giant beard threw me off.
Physical appearance is hardly an indicator of anything in Berserk. Just remember Vargas or look at Griffith.
Ramen4ever said:
I like this idea, but there is also the possibility that he completely died, and used his power to travel beyoun the vortex after his death.
Ramen4ever said:
He wouldn't have needed to assume the appearance of Void while still a human.
Ramen4ever said:
I find that interesting as well. It's probably not a coincidence.
***
So the Wiseman travelled across the Vortex, through the Abyss, and met with the Idea. Then he became Void, first of the God Hand. Where and when does Beherit come into play? Did the Wiseman create Beherit before becoming Void? Did Beherit exist prior to his transformation?
einherjar said:
Needed to? I guess not. But the torture that Mozgus talks about at the tower of Albion may suggest it.
einherjar said:
I'm not entirely sure how the Beherits come into play. They may have been summoned by magic or with a device similar to the Daka factory. Take 1 chicken, add evil magic, let it copulate with a rooster = One EGG of the King.
coincidence?
Personally I'd go with the idea that the Beherits were there all along. However no one could use them.. that is until Void came along. If I recall correctly, you need both a beherit and a sacrifice (yourself if you have to) to become an apostle or GH member. For a sacrifice you need the brand, which makes Void (so far) quite vital to the process. I don't like the idea of the Wiseman creating the beherits since they are supposed to be hellborn, most likely originating from the Astral world. And I might be speculating but I think they're also related to the Idea of Evil. That would more or less rule out the idea that they were created by some human magic user. If astral creatures like elves existed in the physical world 1000 years ago. Then beherits could have existed in the physical world as well.
Here's a nice vague little scene from volume 13, as Griffith is descending into the Abyss.Ramen4ever said:
Note particularly the scene on page 67. It;s not 100% clear, but it APPEARS that after Griffith sheds his final tear, shapes that appear to be beherits are rising to the world.
This is an old theory, but it's still not very solid. What we know of Beherits is still very unclear. I believe they probably form in areas of the world where the border between planes is thin, or in a den of concentrated evil -- places where the God Hand have a more powerful influence.
Walter said:
Thank you for posting that. It's a very interesting read. I would agree with the Beherit's appearing in places of concentrated evil and/or locations where the border between planes is thin. However I don't think the God Hand or their influence is required as that would indicate that the God Hand came before the beherit's or that the beherit's wouldn't exist without the God Hand.
I'd prefer to eliminate the God Hand from the creation theory of the beherit's altogether... if possible.
Well, I made my post from work without consulting the manga, and ... I'm still right. Actually I'll actually step beyond the whole "my opinion" thing and say it's pretty clear that IS how Beherits are born -- at least it's one way.
That seems a little closed-minded for something we know so little about. Especially coming from the guy that postulated that perhaps it was the wiseman who first traversed the astral planes and came to the Abyss, seeking out God. Maybe it was during that journey that Beherits were first born?Ramen4ever said:
Walter said:
I still like the proposed theory. Also it's not really so much close-mindedness as much as it is an attempt to narrow things down. However there are a few loose ends that we need information on. For example, if the Wiseman used a beherit to traverse the astral planes or he used magic to force his "desire' to enter a different world. Did the beherit's exist before the God Hand or only after? Obviously there is a lot we don't know. However there are a few things that may or may not give us some suggestions.
If we continue with the theory that Emperor Gaiseric is the Skullknight and the Wiseman is Void. As well as the theory that the Wiseman was a religious figure and maybe even the very founder of the Holy See Religious Order or the founder of some kind of predecessor to that religion. The first thing is Skullknight's hunt for Beherit's, as Emperor Gaiseric, he may have realized that the "creature" was related to his empire's downfall. Especially if he witnessed the Beherit's distorted face align during the Wiseman's torture.We know from Mozgus's story that the Wiseman continued to implore God for help even through torture. And we know that the person most likely responsible for that torture was Emperor Gaiseric. Here's a theory to roll around, what if the Beherit's existed before the birth of Void. However they were just "creatures" that seemed alive. Their existence simply cannot be explained without delving into the supernatural, they have a face with eyes, a nose and a mouth yet they do not fit in the category of "life". As they do not need anything to "survive". If we speculate that the wiseman was indeed a magic user and by "chance" he came across a Beherit. As a man seeking God, the artifact would have been an enigma. If he tried to figure out and understand the Beherit's nature he may have found out their purpose. They serve as a key to traverse to the different planes of existence. A key to God. The problem, to Guts and every magic user, is figuring out how it works. This is going to be a major leap to a thin branch but one thing that I find recurring in almost every religion is the act of sacrificing. Even aboriginals on isolated volcanic islands knew the term. Everything from offering fruits and berries to animals to people. With that in mind, as a religious figure, the wiseman may have tried to make a sacrifice. "Give in order to receive?" The brand may not have originally been used with magic, but simply used as a religious sign of faith. If the wiseman offered himself and his followers to God, the Beherit could have activated. And the Wiseman could have offered those bearing the "sign".
Now back to the torture, Emperor Gaiseric may have seen the Wiseman's Beherit and after witnessing his empire crumble, realized that the Beherit may have been involved.
I could be totally off base though. Another theory is that the Beherit's formed during the Wiseman's decent into (and maybe beyond) the Vortex. And/Or the theory that they are his crystallized tears of blood. The Beherit's are closely linked with the Idea of Evil, so that would have to be taken into consideration. The only way I can even picture the Wiseman being involved with their actual creation or transfer to the physical world is if he made a bargain with the Idea of Evil directly. Kind of like Griffith. If the wiseman was a religious figure, he may have wanted to establish an eternal faith. Offering to be the Idea of Evil's prophet. Which would explain the term "apostles". In that bargain, the Idea of Evil could have given him the "seeds" of evil. As in the Beherit's, to sow into the ranks of humanity.
Hmm I kinda like that last one.
I guess my attempt to narrow it down and away from the GH.. sorta failed. >_<Oburi said:
This is one of my favorite mysteries of Berserk, "what was before Void?"
And i'd like to throw my two cents about this.
Gaiseric already had the Berserker armor when he became Emperor, he united/conquered the other nations thanks to it (and probably with a little help from Flora and his Wiseman sidekick).
When the Wiseman did something Gaiseric didn't like (maybe an attempted coup) he locked him away, but since the other guy was a wise guy (and had a crimson beherit) he summoned the GH, (because he was supposed to be the 5th GH) but he couldnt brand Gaiseric because he hated him. Long story short, Gaiseric with his neat armor kills the GH, only Void is left. He fought so hard that he broke all his bones and bled all his blood.
OR (and this is my favorite)
The Wiseman was the evil emperor and Gaiseric was his trusty sidekick, but then the Wiseman went bad and Gaiseric kicked his ass and imprisoned him, (that was meant to happen, because all crimson beherit holders have to go through a moment of "despair" to summon the GH) after summoning the (4) GH he sacrificed what held dear, he's Kingdom/People, but since he hated Gaiseric, (and i'd like to discuss this, can someone brand a person he hates?) the guy probably wasn't branded and you know the rest.
fuxberg said:
what are you.. some kinda wise guy?
Sorry it was just too tempting.
fuxberg said:
I don't like the idea of the Wiseman being a simply sidekick. How would a sidekick sacrifice all those people at the bottom of that tower? I would prefer a prominent religious figure and/or magic user. With a large group of followers. A sidekick does not match Void's image even in the slightest. Also if Emperor Gaiseric "died" after killing 4 of the 5 previous GH, wouldn't that imply that he was transferred over to his current armor around that time as well? Yet Zodd recognized his previous armor when Guts was wearing it. Or at least I recall something along those lines. The timing doesn't sound right. Interesting theory though.
fuxberg said:
.. I recall that you can only brand someone that has a place in your heart. Someone close to you. Or maybe even someone that was close to you. This is touched on in volume 3 when the count attempts to sacrifice Guts.
- a thx to the translators-
.. Non-Emperor Gaiseric kicked Emperor Wiseman's ass? And then without being executed for striking an Emperor, threw the Emperor in a cell on his not so Emperor authority. I don't buy it. Especially if Gaiseric was his sidekick. If they had a bond before (hence the sidekick) then he would have still been a possible sacrifice. It just doesn't add up very well. Also what's with the sidekick fetish?
Sidekick as in Griffith and Guts, and kick his ass as in Guts kicked Griffith ass, thus beginning Griffs downfall.
Yeah, the Gaiseric and Wiseman / Guts and Griffith parallel theory. **wild theory warning** Femto is kind of special isn't he? Being the 5th GH, so i could speculate that Void was also special (still is) because he was supposed to be the 5th GH (when the angels came down to punish Gaiseric, how many were they?). **
So we could see a similar thing with different "chess pieces", similar not identical, there are other factors (mainly SK and Flora).
But i think I'll stick with the:
Yeah, the Gaiseric and Wiseman / Guts and Griffith parallel theory. **wild theory warning** Femto is kind of special isn't he? Being the 5th GH, so i could speculate that Void was also special (still is) because he was supposed to be the 5th GH (when the angels came down to punish Gaiseric, how many were they?
). **So we could see a similar thing with different "chess pieces", similar not identical, there are other factors (mainly SK and Flora).
But i think I'll stick with the:
fuxberg said:Sidekick as in Griffith and Guts, and kick his ass as in Guts kicked Griffith ass, thus beginning Griffs downfall.
Yeah, the Gaiseric and Wiseman / Guts and Griffith parallel theory. **wild theory warning** Femto is kind of special isn't he? Being the 5th GH, so i could speculate that Void was also special (still is) because he was supposed to be the 5th GH (when the angels came down to punish Gaiseric, how many were they?
So we could see a similar thing with different "chess pieces", similar not identical, there are other factors (mainly SK and Flora).
But i think I'll stick with the:
Sorry just realized I didn't reply. Do we know that Void was the 5th GH when the Angels came down to punish Emperor Gaiseric? Or were the 4 Angels actually the 4 kings of the world? Depending on which you go with.. the outcome is vastly different. I find the idea strange that there would be 4 GH members yet not a single apostle? And if there were apostles then the bodies at the bottom of the Tower of Rebirth would most likely not look the way they do.
Can't say I agree with the Wiseman being the evil emperor theory. The way Skullknight talks in conjunction with the thought of him being a sidekick of practically no consequence just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention the whole issue of the Skullknight and Emperor Gaiseric's Skull like helmet. Is there any piece of info that would suggest Void being Emperor Gaiseric?
Hmm, something I've been thinking about. Though it's probably been mentioned a lot in the past. The Tower of Rebirth where the branded bodies are.. is nowhere near the Tower of Retribution where the Wiseman was supposedly tortured. Makes for some interesting speculation as to what the sequence of events could have been. Unfortunately I'm not having much luck figuring it out. >_<
Oburi
All praise Grail
fuxberg said:Being the 5th GH, so i could speculate that Void was also special (still is) because he was supposed to be the 5th GH (when the angels came down to punish Gaiseric, how many were they?
This was just cleared up (for me) in the Skullknight question thread. The four "angels" couldn't have been the Godhand because the the timeline doesn't work. Like Ramen pointed out they could be the 4 kings of the world...[size=5pt]right guys?, it's possible?[/size]
Oburi said:
I believe it's a possibility. It's a rather old theory but it kinda works. Also.. if emperor Gaiseric's empire was destroyed by magical means and the one responsible was the wiseman, it would indicate that he may have been a magic user. And therefore.. capable of existing beyond the reasons of time. That could make the time discrepancies a bit more lenient.
Ramen4ever said:
Then, why are the bodies branded?
The 4 angels could've been GH. They just got destroyed by Gaiseric and his berserker armor (Flora says how the wearer died).
Gaiseric could've been a companion of the Wiseman until he became emperor, then Gaiseric could've overthrown the Wiseman's empire, (the guy could've been an evil emperor and Gaiseric was pissed).
Yeah it's purely speculation, but i think it's as valid as the 4 kings theory, and if you make a Griffith&Guts/Wiseman&Gaiseric parallel you see some similarities. It ain't a wheel of time that rules Berserk-world, it's more like a time spiral, things look pretty much the same, but they aren't.
I know Walter, I'm just saying that maybe Gaiseric overthrew the evil Wiseman emperor and took his place.
Then history, or religion (guys like Mozgus) twisted the whole thing and Gaiseric was the evil guy and the Wiseman was on the good side.
It's just speculation, we can pretty much come up with wild theories like this.
Then history, or religion (guys like Mozgus) twisted the whole thing and Gaiseric was the evil guy and the Wiseman was on the good side.
It's just speculation, we can pretty much come up with wild theories like this.
fuxberg said:
Tell you what, you post evidence from the manga that actually supports your theory and I will post a serious reply.
Edit1: When you can't find any evidence.. make some!
Okay that was terrible, I hope Walter doesn't kill me for that.
Edit2: I'm going to attempt to help you out Fuxberg. Not on your theory of the Wiseman and Emperor Gaiseric having their roles swapped but on the general idea that the two may have been close (maybe even... "Sidekick" close
). The information that I believe could be relevant to this, is Guts and Griffith's relationship. To be more specific, the rather interesting fact that Griffith realizes about his relationship with Guts during the eclipse. It's not much for evidence.. but Guts was a pretty unique influence in Griffith's life. And like Emperor Gaiseric, Griffith was also quite the unique individual. It might be possible that Emperor Gaiseric had a similar relationship, possibly with the Wiseman. Someone who was on his level and when their dreams and goals conflicted, the shit hit the fan. It wouldn't even necessarily mean that they were friends. They could have been rivals or even bitter enemies.
I just find the possibility of such a parallel intriguing.
I'm sorry Walter, I've hijacked your thread and taken it off topic. And this isn't even the first off topic post.
Speculation needs no evidenceRamen4ever said:Tell you what, you post evidence from the manga that actually supports your theory and I will post a serious reply.
But we can imagine a scenario where Gaiseric is Emperor and the Wiseman attempts a coup, or we can see it the other way. (I have a fixation with the coup d'etat theory.)
Ramen4ever said:
That's what I've been trying to say.
The parallel is our biggest clue (Wiseman/Gaiseric relationship), i think.
Because if one of them ruled over almost everyone (creating his own kingdom) and the other followed another path, it is for sure that they've met each other and had a great influence over their lives.
A similar thing happened with Griffith/Guts, but the first one couldn't get his kingdom and you know the rest...
Walter said:
jackson_hurley
even the horses are cut in half!
Walter said:
Now THAT makes sense! it's all clear to me now! Thanks Walter.
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Ramen4ever said:
I don't think the wiseman was the one to summon the 4 Elemental Kings. It's much more likely that Flora would've done it I think, assuming Emperor Gaiseric is SK (which looks to be pretty clear).
I used to think that the four angels (or was it five?) were the God Hand, but now I lean toward the idea that the God Hand that's around right now is the first of it's kind. I don't like to think that if Guts and co. somehow managed to defeat them that they'd simply start all over again rebuilding, though it's possible.
The branded people at the bottom of the tower is pretty confusing though, since that indicates their must've been a ceremony of sacrifice. One of the interesting aspects though which set it apart from other sacrificial ceremonies is that all of the brands are on the foreheads. Perhaps it was different in other ways as well. I don't want to go to far off into theory land so I'll hold off my really unprovable idea of what might've happened.
Another thing to consider is the 1000 Year Reincarnation Ceremony. Did that actually occur 1,000 years ago? Or was Griffith's reincarnation the first of its kind? I lean towards it being the first.Deci said:
Well, the location of the brand isn't necessarily significant. Since that's a pile of skulls down there, it could have just been the most effective way to visually portray that these people had been branded prior to death. The volume of intact corpses also implies that they weren't eaten or devoured by apostles. Maybe there weren't many (or any?) apostles around back then?
Sheesh you nerds..
jk jk.
The branded people you mention to me seemed more like people who drank the purple cool-aid if you get my drift.I always thought it as that the whole happening with wiseman etc was like a giant cult thing and their whole worshipping was what gave the idea of evil it's shape and sentient form. Like all the evil was out there in the spiritual world, but that because of the cult that wiseman formed, they shaped the idea into the sentient being that we all know and love. He is a being made up of human emotion/spiritual energy whatever and shaped by human thought and because he/it got willed into existence he does what he was shaped for: being the reason for human suffering. And all the parts of the branding is an adapted recreation of the stuff that went on when and how he/it was "created" All the stuff like the occultation etc is playing out like it is "supposed" to done, how it is imagined it should be by those that gave it it's shape.
That's atleast my ramblings of how I understand the nature of the Idea and what happened with wiseman.
Ah well, atleast we can all speculate for a few more decennia before the story is finally at a point where it touches on all this at this rate
jk jk.
The branded people you mention to me seemed more like people who drank the purple cool-aid if you get my drift.I always thought it as that the whole happening with wiseman etc was like a giant cult thing and their whole worshipping was what gave the idea of evil it's shape and sentient form. Like all the evil was out there in the spiritual world, but that because of the cult that wiseman formed, they shaped the idea into the sentient being that we all know and love. He is a being made up of human emotion/spiritual energy whatever and shaped by human thought and because he/it got willed into existence he does what he was shaped for: being the reason for human suffering. And all the parts of the branding is an adapted recreation of the stuff that went on when and how he/it was "created" All the stuff like the occultation etc is playing out like it is "supposed" to done, how it is imagined it should be by those that gave it it's shape.
That's atleast my ramblings of how I understand the nature of the Idea and what happened with wiseman.
Ah well, atleast we can all speculate for a few more decennia before the story is finally at a point where it touches on all this at this rate