Surviving Sacrifices

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What does it mean when a sacrifice hasn't been sacrificed? That's a question I haven't really thought about before. What does it mean to Femto that his two strongest sacrifices are still living? Is this a vulnerability to him? Does it make him any less of a demon?(you know, in the pants)

Griffith became a demon based on sacrificing his men, but the two major sacrifices were Gutts and Caska, both of which are still living. This also relates to Void/Skully.

Maybe there is no meaning behind it? What do you think?
 

Aazealh

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Maito Gai said:
What does it mean when a sacrifice hasn't been sacrificed?

The sacrifice is the action of branding people, not their death. Guts and Casca were successfully sacrificed. Living or dying doesn't change anything in that regard.
 
What the hell is the point of branding/sacrificing them if they don't die? It seems that if they don't die after being sacrificed, it'll just end up biting the sacrificer in the ass.
 

Aazealh

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Maito Gai said:
What the hell is the point of branding/sacrificing them if they don't die?

What difference would it make if they died? A sacrifice's death doesn't fuel the sacrificer's power. And they do usually die anyway.

Maito Gai said:
It seems that if they don't die after being sacrificed, it'll just end up biting the sacrificer in the ass.

Not under any normal circumstances. Surviving while being branded is a living nightmare, and not many people could even dream of killing an apostle, let alone a member of the God Hand. Guts is an exception, and yet so far he hasn't been much of a threat to Griffith.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
So would you say that the sacrifice actually comes in the sentiment of the sacrificer being willing to give up the people who mean the most to him/her for what the Godhand offer? That would explain why the death wasn't the most important thing, just as long as the sacrificer was willing to sacrifice his loved ones lives for his/her own gain it would be a sacrifice.
 
This is what the encyclopedia states:
The purpose of this sacrifice is to break off the summoner's humanity, and invite evil. The fear and anguish of a branded one's death is nourishment for the newly born Apostle/God Hand
Link: http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/glossary.php#Sacrificial%20Ceremony

Imo the encyclopedia is in need of editing. For at least the second sentence.
 

Walter

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I don't think the Glossary is wrong though. It's what Void says after the branding. Here's Dark Horse's translation.

"The lives of those engraved with the brand are our demonic offerings. To the last drop of blood, to the moment of agonizing death, they become food for the new child of darkness."

And Void was presuming Guts would be dead in about 5 minutes here so... it all adds up. Sacrifices are meant to die, but it's the ACT OF SACRIFICE itself that empowers it, not the literal blood and guts of the event. A branded one's soul is literally forked over to the Vortex -- a currency, you could call it :void:

The God Hand make that quite clear in volume 3 when explaining the ceremony to the Count.
"A fissure in your heart will open up into which evil will surge." That's the power and purpose of the sacrifice.
 
The word "nourishment" is misleading if the point of the ceremony is for the candidate to willingly betray and sacrifice what they hold most dear in order to accomplish their goals, desires, dreams.. etc.

In which case when Void talks about tying the threads of causality, that would be the more important quote. The connection being made upon the summoner's words "I sacrifice" or something along those lines.
If all that matters is that the candidate accepts his or her own evil act, then the concept of nourishment or food could only be useful by showing the candidate what they have done. A good example would be when Griffith sees how his sacrifices are killed. I haven't read the volume for a very long time but I recall that he knows exactly what happens to his sacrifices. Seeing the sacrifices being eaten because of him would force him to accept the evil he has done. There is no going back. For some reason this entire concept reminds me of Macbeth.

So the concept isn't nourishment/food/sacrifice = more powerful apostle/God Hand
It's more like nourishment/food/sacrifice = helps the candidate realize and accept the severity of how evil an act they have done.

Or am I totally off base here?
 

Walter

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Ramen4ever said:
The word "nourishment" is misleading if the point of the ceremony is for the candidate to willingly betray and sacrifice what they hold most dear in order to accomplish their goals, desires, dreams.. etc.
Well, it's their words not mine :void: It's why I worded the entry the way I did. Here's more from Slan in Vol 13. I don't have the DH version handy, so here's Ranemaka13's translation:

That child tries so hard...
However, it's cynical that the harder that child tries
the more his anguish goes on and on,
becoming the Bread for that new existence of darkness.

Or am I totally off base here?
I think you're just stuck on "nourishment" as a concept. That portion of the sacrifice is quite vague in practice, but is well-documented in the manga as an important part of the ceremony, which is shown in the two different quotes I've posted so far.
 
Walter said:
Well, it's their words not mine :void: It's why I worded the entry the way I did. Here's more from Slan in Vol 13. I don't have the DH version handy, so here's Ranemaka13's translation:
I think you're just stuck on "nourishment" as a concept. That portion of the sacrifice is quite vague in practice, but is well-documented in the manga as an important part of the ceremony, which is shown in the two different quotes I've posted so far.

I sent a PM.
I'm concerned with the interpretation of nourishment. As it can mislead people to think that the sacrifices nourish and make the apostle or God Hand member more powerful. Which is hardly the case.
 

SimplyEd

エンシェント カタストロフィ
Ramen4ever said:
The word "nourishment" is misleading if the point of the ceremony is for the candidate to willingly betray and sacrifice what they hold most dear in order to accomplish their goals, desires, dreams.. etc.

In which case when Void talks about tying the threads of causality, that would be the more important quote. The connection being made upon the summoner's words "I sacrifice" or something along those lines.
If all that matters is that the candidate accepts his or her own evil act, then the concept of nourishment or food could only be useful by showing the candidate what they have done. A good example would be when Griffith sees how his sacrifices are killed. I haven't read the volume for a very long time but I recall that he knows exactly what happens to his sacrifices. Seeing the sacrifices being eaten because of him would force him to accept the evil he has done. There is no going back. For some reason this entire concept reminds me of Macbeth.

So the concept isn't nourishment/food/sacrifice = more powerful apostle/God Hand
It's more like nourishment/food/sacrifice = helps the candidate realize and accept the severity of how evil an act they have done.

Or am I totally off base here?


Well, if we think of an occultation as a possible act of "unholy-transcendence" of a certain being, a supernatural alteration beyond the natural boundaries of a mortal being of the mortal realm, then this "nourishment" part should be understood in a more metaphysical/ontological way. After all, this heinous act of having your loved ones willingly sacrified is only there to sever an individuals ties to other parts of his/her humanity, besides the darker parts of their ego.

By willingly renouncing the better part of your humanity you will make way for the darkness, which is already inside every single human being to some extent. And this is what will constitute that individuals existance from there on out, since they are now incarnations of those very dark desires which characterized their former lives.

The sacrifice triggered the advent of a new existance, so it doesn't actually matter all that much whether these sacrifices really do die during such an event because the candidate of the occultation has already doomed their very bodies and souls for all eternity. The sacrifices account for the existance of a new being and everything they do while living a, more than likely, miserable life full of pain and anguish and hatred will serve as a testimony or proof of its darkness.

In any way, this all is a conscious act. There's no room for doubts or second chances, you have to give your humanity willingly and you have to ruin the lives of those closest to you. It's all a matter of how far that individual is willing to go, how much does it want to sacrifice. We have seen cases in which apostles still seemed to have a shred of humanity still left in them, who didn't sacrifice everything dear to them and were capable of showing compassion, like the count.
Ultimately, however, both the candidate and his sacrifices are doomed for eternity.
 
Well this has certainly shed light to a lot of questions, but here is one more that has always puzzled me . . . what happens to a sacrifice when it dies?
 
Zerk said:
Well this has certainly shed light to a lot of questions, but here is one more that has always puzzled me . . . what happens to a sacrifice when it dies?

The sacrifice gets dragged into the Vortex of Souls. I think.
 
This is slightly more off topic, but what is the difference for a normal person to die as opposed to a sacrifice dying? I always thought every soul (or at least a majority) get dragged into the vortex.
 
Zerk said:
This is slightly more off topic, but what is the difference for a normal person to die as opposed to a sacrifice dying? I always thought every soul (or at least a majority) get dragged into the vortex.

It's hard to explain because we don't know what happens to people who die at peace. Sacrifices are fated to be dragged into the Vortex of Souls. But so are some normal people like Vargas. He did not die at peace and he ended up in the Vortex of Souls. Since we haven't seen the afterlife of someone who is at peace.. we don't really know what the alternative is. I suppose one answer may be nothingness as opposed to being in the Vortex for eternity. Though that's just my guess.

Other members may be able to explain it better.
 

Walter

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In answer to Zerk's immediate question, those that are involved with the affairs of the God Hand are inevitably dragged down physically by the Vortex of Souls, which is composed of other dead souls. But, to answer the question in a broader sense, I'd say it's unknown if there is a separation of "good" and "bad" souls. Bear with me...

Ramen4ever said:
It's hard to explain because we don't know what happens to people who die at peace. Sacrifices are fated to be dragged into the Vortex of Souls. But so are some normal people like Vargas. He did not die at peace and he ended up in the Vortex of Souls.
Flora explains the afterlife in very vague terms in volume 24. Here's an excerpt (seems all i do is quote the manga these days...). She begins by discussing the astral plane, specifically the interstice:

So there are many spirits wandering there, their own death unnoticed...
Fixated on memories of this world.
In time, most of them accept their own deaths, or become unable to maintain their original shape, and so fade away to other streams.
And in the depths of the shadow world...
Lies a realm so transformed, so unlike our own world, that we cannot even begin to imagine it.
In this place live huge astral bodies...
Utterly unlike the ethereal bodies of humans.
They are called angels, or devils, or the gods of polytheism.

104
And below that...
Is where people, according to their karma,
May find the realms known as heaven or hell.
Basically, unrestful souls wander the astral plane (we see Griff manipulating them in ep 195 after a battle), but ultimately they are divided by their karma. Which kind of struck me as odd, since I believe (it's not concrete) that all souls are absorbed into the Vortex of Souls. But since Flora says calls the afterlife heaven or hell, I wonder if there really is a separation, or if it's like Clive Barker's Hellraiser, where there is no true heaven, only hell.

I have more thoughts on this, and I'd like to cross reference a few more ideas with the manga, but can't do that yet since I'm still at work, and on deadline. More later.
 
Walter said:
In answer to Zerk's immediate question, those that are involved with the affairs of the God Hand are inevitably dragged down physically by the Vortex of Souls, which is composed of other dead souls. But, to answer the question in a broader sense, I'd say it's unknown if there is a separation of "good" and "bad" souls. Bear with me...
Flora explains the afterlife in very vague terms in volume 24. Here's an excerpt (seems all i do is quote the manga these days...). She begins by discussing the astral plane, specifically the interstice:
Basically, unrestful souls wander the astral plane (we see Griff manipulating them in ep 195 after a battle), but ultimately they are divided by their karma. Which kind of struck me as odd, since I believe (it's not concrete) that all souls are absorbed into the Vortex of Souls. But since Flora says calls the afterlife heaven or hell, I wonder if there really is a separation, or if it's like Clive Barker's Hellraiser, where there is no true heaven, only hell.

I have more thoughts on this, and I'd like to cross reference a few more ideas with the manga, but can't do that yet since I'm still at work, and on deadline. More later.

Interesting read, that's for sure. I look forward to the rest, when you have time.

I find it difficult to understand how a vortex can be divided? :???: Considering it spins.. and the souls apparently rotate endlessly as well. If there is a separation, I would find it more likely to be within the dead individual's mind. With those that have regrets in life, struggling to get out of a Vortex they can never escape. This would be hell. On the other hand. People like Flora who are content with their lives and are ready for death would not struggle in the Vortex. They would not try to escape, and this would be heaven?

A new Gaiden to ask from Miura:
"Life in the Vortex, a dead guys tale. - By Vargas" :ganishka:
 

Walter

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I'm not saying the vortex itself has to be divided, but human souls are divided between whether they're shipped off to the vortex or "elsewhere." At least, that's what it appears Flora is implying.

I'm not even sure I believe the above statement, but I wanted to make sure it was clear.
 

SimplyEd

エンシェント カタストロフィ
Well, if we were to speculate that all souls end up in the Vortex at some time after an individuals death, and that it ultimately depends on a persons accumulated karma how this type of existence will present itself, then we can think of that place as both, heaven and hell.

If an individual with relatively good karma dies (i don't think there will ever be a person without any sort of taint on its soul, except maybe for infants or rather beings which have yet to form a fully developed ego) then it will be tied to the memories of its own lifetime but it will be easier for it to come to terms with its own demise. Maybe because the impression of good memories, of peace and tranquility and joyous moments offer consolation to the last vestiges of ego that are still left in that soul. So, after a while (which can be a lot of time nonetheless) that ego would just fade into blissful nothingness and the remains of the soul will then merge with other souls that have reached a similar state. That can be considered heaven. And i don't think that even the Idea of Evil can do much at that point anymore.

Souls with a bad karma and the souls of those that were sacrificed however may be doomed for eternity under certain circumstances. First of, these souls are probably chained to their memories (which should have been way more extreme than those of souls with good karma), because they were willing to go to pretty much every lengths in life to feed their own ego or simply because it was their way to affirm their own life.

These souls would then have a hard time to let go, to have their egos fade away, because their lives were led under the impression of vile emotions. The taint of these impressions of fear (of death), hatred, envy and so on would be so deeply implanted into a soul that it may just be impossible for an ego to fade away and continue on in a very tormented type of existence. That surely is a hell in all respects.
As for the sacrifices, one could argument that even good people could end up in such a situation and would therefore be able to reach the state of nothingness. On the other hand, we have to see that the act of becoming a sacrifce is to supernaturaly force a dark taint onto an individual without any means to repel it.

And surely, if we think of the Idea of Evil as a man-made god, then it would have a rather pressing interest in corrupting souls to the point where they'd suffer eternaly in the Vortex because that's its nature and proof of its existance. Something that was born of the darkness inside countless tormented souls of the Vortex.
 

Aazealh

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Guts' intestines said:
So would you say that the sacrifice actually comes in the sentiment of the sacrificer being willing to give up the people who mean the most to him/her for what the Godhand offer?

There's a bit of that, but not just that. The Brand has obviously a very strong effect on the people who receive it, and we don't really know the full extent of what it does on the spiritual side either.

It's the branding that represents the sacrifice, not just the fact that people are letting go of what they cared the most about.

Ramen4ever said:
In which case when Void talks about tying the threads of causality, that would be the more important quote.

Well that's an important part no matter how you look at it anyway.

Ramen4ever said:
A good example would be when Griffith sees how his sacrifices are killed. I haven't read the volume for a very long time but I recall that he knows exactly what happens to his sacrifices. Seeing the sacrifices being eaten because of him would force him to accept the evil he has done.

What's important is that though he's aware of it, he feels nothing. But anyway, this isn't the only aspect of the sacrifice, like I just said. The Brand itself has a meaning and a purpose beyond a promise of death. That's what you guys are missing here. The reason death doesn't matter all that much is because the Brand dooms the sacrifice on a level that goes beyond material life and death. We don't know the technicalities of what that implies, but as far as we can tell it's quite grim.

And because it doesn't fuel the sacrificer's immediate power doesn't mean it's not benefitting a higher power. It's a toll that is taken in exchange for the power given, not unlike a currency, like Walter said. It could be that the bestowed power has to be balanced somehow, and the sacrifice makes up for it.

Added to that is the idea that when a branded one descends into a state where he feels extreme anguish, rage, pain, fear, hatred and the like, his dark thoughts reinforce the ocean of darkness the Idea of Evil dwells in. Meaning that for all we know, his desperate struggle to survive may be more profitable than an immediate death. This is all alluded to by the God Hand at various points.

Walter said:
[...] they become food for the new child of darkness. [...] becoming the Bread for that new existence of darkness.

Actually those translations aren't perfectly accurate, but you still hit the nail on the head. The same word is used in both lines in Japanese: "糧". It means "nourishment", but more in a figurative way, like "reading is nourishment for the mind" for example. Bottom line is that the glossary entry is correct as it is.

Ramen4ever said:
The sacrifice gets dragged into the Vortex of Souls.

Yeah.

Zerk said:
This is slightly more off topic, but what is the difference for a normal person to die as opposed to a sacrifice dying? I always thought every soul (or at least a majority) get dragged into the vortex.

We're not sure; there's a severe lack of information on the matter. We don't know the details of what the Brand does beyond Guts' day to day experience with it, and we know even less about the Vortex, the deeper layers of the astral world, and the afterlife in Berserk in general.

Ramen4ever said:
It's hard to explain because we don't know what happens to people who die at peace. Sacrifices are fated to be dragged into the Vortex of Souls. But so are some normal people like Vargas. He did not die at peace and he ended up in the Vortex of Souls.

The notion of dying "at peace" is rather misleading here. Being content at the time of your death isn't a factor, for example someone that's done "evil" deeds all his life could die happy and still go to the Vortex. It has to do with how much evil you have in you (bad feelings and the like), and Vargas' presence in there is supposed to come as a shock because he was meant to be sympathetic to the reader. Yet he harbored enough darkness to end up there. Like Flora said, it's all done according to Karma.

Walter said:
those that are involved with the affairs of the God Hand are inevitably dragged down physically by the Vortex of Souls

Physically? :carcus: I see what you mean, but allow me to specify that only the soul is affected while the corporeal body stays behind. In the case of apostles that results in the body reverting to its original form, freed of the soul's evil.

This brings me to another point worth repeating: a sacrifice is branded on a spiritual level, and then it impacts their body. That's why the branded flesh never heals and is nothing like a normal wound. Similarly, an apostle is transformed because his soul is infused with evil, and only because of it does his or her body transform. The corporeal world is affected by the others and not the other way around. That is why corporeal death isn't the determining factor.

Ramen4ever said:
I find it difficult to understand how a vortex can be divided?

You're not thinking in good terms. Look at what we're shown of the Vortex of Souls and where it comes from. We can see many currents and whirlpools there, like a great supernatural sea. We don't know much about it and Miura could basically make anything he wants out of it.

Ramen4ever said:
the souls apparently rotate endlessly as well

What?

Ramen4ever said:
If there is a separation, I would find it more likely to be within the dead individual's mind. With those that have regrets in life, struggling to get out of a Vortex they can never escape. This would be hell. On the other hand. People like Flora who are content with their lives and are ready for death would not struggle in the Vortex. They would not try to escape, and this would be heaven?

That's a nice idea, but I don't think that's the case, and there's evidence against it in the manga. If you look at how the Vortex of Souls is depicted, it's rather awful and just screams "evil" at you. And when Puck saw it in volume 3 he commented that it almost felt like all the evil in the world was gathered there. Which is probably the case. Plus it's the dwelling place of the Idea of Evil, and probably the place that saw Its birth. That doesn't speak of goodness to me. So I don't think Heaven and Hell in Berserk could be the same thing. They might be linked in a way, but it's not just a matter of interpreting afterlife for those dying.

SimplyEd said:
On the other hand, we have to see that the act of becoming a sacrifce is to supernaturaly force a dark taint onto an individual without any means to repel it.

In volume 3 the Vortex tried to take Guts while it completely ignored Theresia. I think it's clear the Brand does its job like intended.

SimplyEd said:
Well, if we were to speculate that all souls end up in the Vortex at some time after an individuals death, and that it ultimately depends on a persons accumulated karma how this type of existence will present itself, then we can think of that place as both, heaven and hell.

Same answer than to Ramen. I don't think it's the case from what we can see in the manga.

Here are some excerpts of old posts I made on the subject:

Aazealh said:
From what Griffith says in volume 23, everybody goes there. However, Flora's words seem to imply she could avoid it, so it's hard to know for sure without more information being revealed in the manga. Guts' speech to Theresia in volume 3, while not authoritative, also mentions a "heaven." The best indication we have is from Flora in volume 24. When talking about the Vortex of Souls, she says (approximatively) that "this territory can be reached depending on your personal karma," and then mentions heaven and hell. What this tells us is that it's perfectly possible that a heaven exists somewhere in that place, remote from the Vortex of Souls itself (which contains most of the "evil" of the world). When dying, the rare good people would go there instead of fusing into the Vortex of Souls as we know it.

Anyway, I'd like to emphasize that this is probably a rare event at best. Vargas became part of the Vortex of Souls and he was portrayed as being a relatively good man. I think we can assume that most adult humans end up in the Vortex of Souls, and that it's a lot bigger than its "good" counterpart.

Aazealh said:
Maybe there's a place like "Heaven" somewhere, but we're not even sure about it (and I don't see how it could be in the Vortex in any case). If Heaven exists, then maybe the both are connected somehow (according to the division of Karma, like Flora said in volume 24), but so far nothing has ever hinted at it. And in any case, Heaven would be really small in comparison to Hell, already outweighed from the start.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Yeah, as everyone said, the power of an apostle or a God Hand, is not bound to the branded's death or the strength implied of a branded one. And as you said there's no way a God Hand or an apostle is weaker if those who are branded are not strong or still alive or of minor number.

We know that everyone who deals with God Hand gains power from HELL, not from a branded one. So their large number or their death are not important.

Maybe a weird thing could be that when Guts was at the presence of God Hand at the volume 3, he hasn't been devoured by hell like the count's wife.

Yes, of course that special pleasure for the evil beings was assured to the apostles in the eclipse, and I'd think that a branded one in the material world could charm just evil spirits or incubus, but what if a branded one jump again in an hellish layer as happen in the vol 3?

Why hell should not devour Guts, but simply try to bring him to the vortex? He is branded exactly as the count's wife. I think it's the same as Void would have branded him that time instead of the count's daughter.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
Daijyashin said:
So their large number or their death are not important.

Well, you have to keep in mind that our main examples are all exceptional cases, the most notable being the Occultation ceremony. Sacrifices don't occur the same way for an apostle or a member of the God Hand. It doesn't happen in the same place, nor in the same conditions and with different attendants. In the case of an apostle, there's no one to kill and eat the person sacrificed other than themselves (the alternative being that the Vortex of Souls comes out and snatch them directly into its midst).

However, in the case of Femto, the blood of the victims was pumped to his birthing place right before he appeared. We're not really shown what purpose it served, but it happened nonetheless. The same can be said of the Incarnation ceremony, with the land itself bearing the brand and hundreds if not thousands of people dying overnight. Who's to say what the requirements are for extraordinary events like those?

Daijyashin said:
Maybe a weird thing could be that when Guts was at the presence of God Hand at the volume 3, he hasn't been devoured by hell like the count's wife.

You are assuming it was the Vortex of Souls that killed her, and I would tend to agree with that but the tentacles also look like those the Count displayed through the possessed Zondark.

Daijyashin said:
I think it's the same as Void would have branded him that time instead of the count's daughter.

You can't be branded twice.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
Well, you have to keep in mind that our main examples are all exceptional cases, the most notable being the Occultation ceremony. Sacrifices don't occur the same way for an apostle or a member of the God Hand. It doesn't happen in the same place, nor in the same conditions and with different attendants. In the case of an apostle, there's no one to kill and eat the person sacrificed other than themselves (the alternative being that the Vortex of Souls comes out and snatch them directly into its midst).

Yes of course, as you say, apostles and members of God Hand, are powered up from evil on different layers. And in fact I have considered that in the Occulation Ceremony there are just apostles, and no evil spirit bound to the Vortex. And so there is even the snatching within hell.

Aazealh said:
However, in the case of Femto, the blood of the victims was pumped to his birthing place right before he appeared. We're not really shown what purpose it served, but it happened nonetheless. The same can be said of the Incarnation ceremony, with the land itself bearing the brand and hundreds if not thousands of people dying overnight. Who's to say what the requirements are for extraordinary events like those?

Yes of course my thought was aimed for general birth, where if the laws of Karma led Guts to die and provide even his blood for Femto, it was not essential for final birth, or the same for Casca. So I was meaning that even if in Albion someone doomed under the tower would be alive, Griffith would have been reincarnated anyway. My speech was always aiming to express that the power of an apostle or a God Hand is granted by hell.

Aazealh said:
You are assuming it was the Vortex of Souls that killed her, and I would tend to agree with that but the tentacles also look like those the Count displayed through the possessed Zondark.

Yes, it's a weird thing in the case the tentacles with human faces come from hell.
In the case those tentacles come from the Count, like for Zondark it means that maybe the branded is always killed by the new apostle (since none survive the branding).

Anyway there's no proof that those several and different human faces comes from hell, but a singular thing could be, IMO the different emotion that every face has. That really makes me think of the possibility that could be hell, but it's a speculation.

Aazealh said:
You can't be branded twice.

I'm sorry, but I didn't mean that Guts would has been branded again. I was meaning that it was not important that Void didn't brand the Count's daughter, because a branded was there already.(always for the speculation of before)
 
@Daijya: Apparently you've forgotten what Slan told the Count in volume 3, she told him "you cannot brand this boy he is your enemy", so Guts even if he was taken by the Vortex of Souls still would not have the Count live since he didn't "cast his love asunder" as Femto said. Therefore if he still didn't sacrifice his daughter he would still be taken by Vortex as well since he became involved with demonkind.

Theresia would still be there alone in a crumbling castle afterwards even if Guts had been absorbed into the Vortex since he didn't want to sacrifice his daughter and died of blood loss.
 
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