Surviving Sacrifices

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Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
OK, so we know that the Vortex of Souls is the place where both sacrifices and people with any bad karma end up. We also know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Berserk universe (at least from his own words) and he dwells within the vortex of souls/abyss, we know too that the Idea of Evil manipulates causality in order to further his own goals, (which seem mostly to be the furtherance of evil, which by design would further the Idea's existence) I also believe that there has to be some form of heaven, not due to any dogma, but simply because I don't believe Schierke would mention a heaven unless it existed, also where would truly good humans go, and who governs the part of the heart of the Ideal that intentionalities of beings such as elves and fairies (who are purely good) reside within?

And since we know that the Idea manipulates the world in order to maintain his own existence, there would be no motivation for it to make a heaven, and since it is purportedly the God of the Berserk universe it would be up to it to create a heaven so to do so that would be counterintuitive to its designs. My point is that if there is a heaven it would have to of been created by someone else...

I thought of something interesting ... atleast to me anyway, it's sort of a chicken or the egg type question. We know that the Idea was essentially created by man's dark feelings/suffering, and I wonder what could've caused the suffering to exist? Also (going off the idea that the people alive prior to the Idea's existence were mortal) since we agree that the Vortex of Souls is an evil thing, and since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls, so if man was alive prior to the Idea (in order for it to exist in the first place) and presumably died/faced hardships where did those souls of those pre-idea humans go to?

I'm getting off topic here, but I just want to finish these thoughts.

So I'll also add (even though it has been brought up before and at this point is unanswerable) we know the Idea wasn't responsible for the creation of humanity, so who created them/or if not a who/it then how did they come to be? All of these questions are what seriously lead me to believe that the Idea is not the God of all the multiple layers of existence within the Berserk universe, or even enough to have the title of God of the Berserk Universe, and remember that it is also said to be God of the Abyss, which I believe to be an important distinction.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Slan_wings said:
@Daijya: Apparently you've forgotten what Slan told the Count in volume 3, she told him "you cannot brand this boy he is your enemy", so Guts even if he was taken by the Vortex of Souls still would not have the Count live since he didn't "cast his love asunder" as Femto said. Therefore if he still didn't sacrifice his daughter he would still be taken by Vortex as well since he became involved with demonkind.

Theresia would still be there alone in a crumbling castle afterwards even if Guts had been absorbed into the Vortex since he didn't want to sacrifice his daughter and died of blood loss.

I think you have misunderstood what I mean about Theresia. I didn't mean that Guts would be GOOD anyway as sacrifical victim instead of Theresia. In fact all you said is quite obvious and well known. My speculation was always referring just to the possibility that hell, would come to devour Guts, as theorically happened to the Count's wife, without a necessarily "new branding" that would involve Theresia, and thus unleash hell towards her.

Guts' intestines said:
My point is that if there is a heaven it would have to of been created by someone else...

Heaven, for all that we know is another name of the Vortex. Maybe there're spiritual layers of peace, so "heavenly" but sure is not what men would have created for his final will.

Guts' intestines said:
We know that the Idea was essentially created by man's dark feelings/suffering, and I wonder what could've caused the suffering to exist?

The point is that men rejected subconsciously the benefits of the natural magic. Althought there are magicians, the inner will of men created a God based on its true nature. Moreover as Slan says in "Evil" lies all the human feelings. "That's the men, that's the evil".

Guts' intestines said:
since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls, so if man was alive prior to the Idea (in order for it to exist in the first place) and presumably died/faced hardships where did those souls of those pre-idea humans go to?

I think that is a good problem, and I would say that Idea has born and "reorganized" astral world when the humans start to "feel".
I'd speculate that God is born at the same time with the human feelings.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Daijyashin, you're a nice fellow but honestly your lack of familiarity with the English language often makes it hard to understand what you're saying. I think you should try to be more direct and concise in order to avoid confusion.

Daijyashin said:
Yes of course, as you say, apostles and members of God Hand, are powered up from evil on different layers.

I'm not sure that's what I said. Your words aren't clear. I meant that the setting isn't the same. The transformation undergone isn't the same either.

Daijyashin said:
And in fact I have considered that in the Occulation Ceremony there are just apostles, and no evil spirit bound to the Vortex.

And vice versa.

Daijyashin said:
And so there is even the snatching within hell.

What is this supposed to mean?

Daijyashin said:
In the case those tentacles come from the Count, like for Zondark it means that maybe the branded is always killed by the new apostle (since none survive the branding).

Maybe, maybe not. Even if the apostle didn't kill them, spectres would take care of it at night, or other apostles wandering by.

Daijyashin said:
a singular thing could be, IMO the different emotion that every face has. That really makes me think of the possibility that could be hell, but it's a speculation.

It's true this scene is confusing because of the many different faces shown in there. I have myself always considered that they could be part of the Vortex of Souls. However, did you notice that some of those faces seem to resemble the Count? This brings us back to the fact he had been promised an end to his emotional distress. As if those emotions would be taken away. Do you see where I'm going? And those appendages do kind of resemble the ones Zondark displays during his final transformation, while they're not all that much like the Vortex of Souls. So I'd say it's inconclusive at the moment.

Count-Zondark-Gross.jpg
Count-Sacrifice.jpg

Daijyashin said:
I'm sorry, but I didn't mean that Guts would has been branded again. I was meaning that it was not important that Void didn't brand the Count's daughter, because a branded was there already.

You will notice though that Guts didn't attract the Vortex of Souls before it had come to take the Count. Maybe the Brand isn't enough of a beacon to make it come from too far a distance, and only a being as evil as an apostle could summon it. Or it's possible that the God Hand had been somehow "shielding" the place to protect the Count, and that upon his failure to sacrifice Theresia, they lifted that invisible barrier (or it lifted itself?).

Guts' intestines said:
(which seem mostly to be the furtherance of evil, which by design would further the Idea's existence)

We know nothing of the Idea of Evil's goals. We only surmise what they are. And if we are to believe what the Idea of Evil said, it is one with the darkness in every human heart, and therefore might not require to further its existence at all.

Guts' intestines said:
I also believe that there has to be some form of heaven, not due to any dogma, but simply because I don't believe Schierke would mention a heaven unless it existed

Schierke didn't mention anything.

Guts' intestines said:
also where would truly good humans go

Truly good humans? Do they exist? Is there not darkness in every human heart, even in small quantity? It can't be asserted with any sort of proof.

Guts' intestines said:
and who governs the part of the heart of the Ideal that intentionalities of beings such as elves and fairies (who are purely good) reside within?

Firstly, there's no need for someone to govern anything. Read again why the Idea of Evil was born. It wasn't to govern. Secondly, Elves (what is it you qualify as "fairies" exactly?) aren't human. They aren't related to the Idea of Evil, nor to mankind. They are "governed" by the four elemental kings. Thirdly, not all astral creatures are good, and the concept of good and bad might not be applicable to them in the way it is for humans.

Guts' intestines said:
And since we know that the Idea manipulates the world in order to maintain his own existence

We don't know that. There's no indication that the Idea of Evil needs to do anything to "maintain" its existence at all. Again, if we are to believe what it says itself, then it manipulates the world in order to provide humans with "reasons for the destiny that keeps transcending their knowledge".

Guts' intestines said:
there would be no motivation for it to make a heaven, and since it is purportedly the God of the Berserk universe it would be up to it to create a heaven

Definitely not. The Idea of Evil isn't omnipotent. It didn't create the world it exists in, nor does it predate it. Do not attribute it powers and qualities that it doesn't have. This is why, among other things, the capitalization of the 'G' in "god" remains debatable in its case.

Guts' intestines said:
My point is that if there is a heaven it would have to of HAVE been created by someone else...

Your logic is flawed. Check episode 83 again: "An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls." This is what gave birth to the Idea of Evil. The ocean's dark side, to be precise. It preceded the Idea of Evil. And if there's a dark side, then there can be a light one, which would be "heaven" or something approaching.

Guts' intestines said:
I thought of something interesting ... atleast to me anyway, it's sort of a chicken or the egg type question. We know that the Idea was essentially created by man's dark feelings/suffering, and I wonder what could've caused the suffering to exist?

The answer to your question lies in plain sight in episode 83.

Humans
Desired reasons

Reasons for pain
Reasons for sadness
Reasons for life
Reasons for death
Reason why their lives were filled with suffering
Reasons why their deaths were absurd

They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge

And I produce those
As it is what I've been brought into existence for

It's wrong to just say it was created by suffering, but beyond that, there doesn't need to be a reason for people's misery. People get sick and die without reason other than a virus being there at the time. There's a lot in life that doesn't have an easy-to-comprehend reason. But humanity couldn't be at peace with that. That's why the Idea of Evil was created.

Guts' intestines said:
Also (going off the idea that the people alive prior to the Idea's existence were mortal) since we agree that the Vortex of Souls is an evil thing, and since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls

No, that doesn't imply this at all. In fact it's pretty much the contrary. I think you're stuck on an Abrahamic-like definition of "God" and it's clearly not what the Idea of Evil is.

Guts' intestines said:
we know the Idea wasn't responsible for the creation of humanity, so who created them/or if not a who/it then how did they come to be?

Who knows? Maybe nothing did. Maybe they evolved from unicellular organisms over a long long time. :carcus:

Guts' intestines said:
All of these questions are what seriously lead me to believe that the Idea is not the God of all the multiple layers of existence within the Berserk universe, or even enough to have the title of God of the Berserk Universe, and remember that it is also said to be God of the Abyss, which I believe to be an important distinction.

Well you're not one to say who gets to have what title in Berserk. The fact is the only God we know of in Berserk is the Idea of Evil, and it's not very likely that a new one will be introduced. That talk of "God of all layers" or whatever is kind of missing the point I think. The different aspects of the world influence each other and so the Idea of Evil can influence the corporeal world to a rather large extent. Is there a material God for it? I really don't think so.

What you want is a typical creator God: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, transcendent, eternal and sovereign. There is none in Berserk at this point, and personally I don't think there's necessarily a need for one. As for the Idea of Evil and what it is, its name should be enough of an indication. From what it tells Griffith in episode 83, it is present in every human heart and controls mankind's destiny. I think that's enough of a feat to be called God. However, that doesn't automatically mean it has other characteristics that you would usually associate with a typical Creator-type God.

Daijyashin said:
Heaven, for all that we know is another name of the Vortex.

Not the one we know at least.

Daijyashin said:
Maybe there're spiritual layers of peace, so "heavenly" but sure is not what man would have created for his final will.

I don't understand what this means.

Daijyashin said:
The point is that men rejected subconsciously the benefits of the natural magic. Althought there are magician, the inner will of men created a God based on its true nature.

You're making some big assumptions and taking some bad shortcuts here. The Idea of Evil doesn't represent the whole of mankind. Otherwise it'd be the "Idea of Mankind" and not of Evil. And men subconsciously rejecting the benefits of a "natural" magic is something you made up altogether.

Daijyashin said:
Moreover as Slan says in "Evil" lies all the human feelings. "That's the men, that's the evil".

Are you referring to what Slan says during the rape of Casca? Because if so, you're taking it completely out of context and probably misinterpreting it. When she says "this is human, this is evil" she's not making a general statement but commenting on the act that's taking place in front of her.

Daijyashin said:
I think that is a good problem, and I would say that Idea has born and "reorganized" astral world when the humans start to "feel".
I'd speculate that God is born at the same time with the human feelings.

That's not a good "problem". If the Idea of Evil was born from the swells of the ocean of human feelings, then those feelings must have already been there. And there's no evidence that the Idea of Evil reorganized anything.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
Daijyashin, you're a nice fellow but honestly your lack of familiarity with the English language often makes it hard to understand what you're saying. I think you should try to be more direct and concise in order to avoid confusion.

Thanks, and I apologize for my not clear way of posting. I know that could be hard to understand and thus reply, but I'll try to be more concise and clear.

Aazealh said:
I'm not sure that's what I said. Your words aren't clear. I meant that the setting isn't the same. The transformation undergone isn't the same either.

Yes, I meant different spiritual layers, then setting. And so the transformation.

Aazealh said:
What is this supposed to mean?

I was quoting you about the possibility that the Vortex of Souls comes out and snatch them directly into its midst.

Aazealh said:
Maybe, maybe not. Even if the apostle didn't kill them, spectres would take care of it at night, or other apostles wandering by.

Yes of course.

Aazealh said:
It's true this scene is confusing because of the many different faces shown in there. I have myself always considered that they could be part of the Vortex of Souls. However, did you notice that some of those faces seem to resemble the Count? This brings us back to the fact he had been promised an end to his emotional distress. As if those emotions would be taken away. Do you see where I'm going? And those appendages do kind of resemble the ones Zondark displays during his final transformation, while they're not all that much like the Vortex of Souls. So I'd say it's inconclusive at the moment.

Yes infact there are surely two faces that resemble the Count. Anyway as I said I was not sure about it and it's good to debate even on little details(as the faces) to try to understand some important things. :serpico:

Aazealh said:
You will notice though that Guts didn't attract the Vortex of Souls before it had come to take the Count. Maybe the Brand isn't enough of a beacon to make it come from too far a distance, and only a being as evil as an apostle could summon it. Or it's possible that the God Hand had been somehow "shielding" the place to protect the Count, and that upon his failure to sacrifice Theresia, they lifted that invisible barrier (or it lifted itself?).

Nice Idea. Maybe it's lifted from someone more powerful than God Hand. :idea:


Aazealh said:
Not the one we know at least.

Infact I said for all that we know.


Aazealh said:
I don't understand what this means.

I meant that, for that we know, humans don't want to rest in peace, but their will is to go in to the Vortex. Then in Hell.

Aazealh said:
You're making some big assumptions and taking some bad shortcuts here. The Idea of Evil doesn't represent the whole of mankind. Otherwise it'd be the "Idea of Mankind" and not of Evil. And men subconsciously rejecting the benefits of a "natural" magic is something you made up altogether.

I think that Idea of Evil represents all mankind, since it was created subconsciuosly, and as Schierke said there is a inner common consciuossness among mankind, so I think that man matches with evil. Then when I say that men reject the good magic, I mean that although some men made "ancient deals" such as the one mentioned from the spirit of water in Enoch (so there was a good help from nature to men), the inner consciousness of manking fed evil, giving birth to a God, that controls men's fate. So it sounds like a paradox. Anyway it's just my thoughts.

Aazealh said:
Are you referring to what Slan says during the rape of Casca? Because if so, you're taking it completely out of context and probably misinterpreting it. When she says "this is human, this is evil" she's not making a general statement but commenting on the act that's taking place in front of her.

And she listed many human feelings, looking the rape. Even the good one such as love. So I think she was making a general statement upon men, but it's just my thought.

Aazealh said:
That's not a good "problem". If the Idea of Evil was born from the swells of the ocean of human feelings, then those feelings must have already been there. And there's no evidence that the Idea of Evil reorganized anything.

Yes there's no evidence that Idea reorganized anything, but there's no evidence even when you say that those feelings must have already been there. You are just assuming it.
I think, but it's just my opinion, that God was born after men, beacouse the feelings must have been left necessarely from humans. If those feelings must have already been there, who would have produced that ocean?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
So why are you guys talking about the Idea of Evil and the layers of the astral world here anyway? This thread was supposed to be about sacrifices and by extension the Brand. The original question was answered and by all means this should have been locked on page 1.

Daijyashin said:
Yes, I meant different spiritual layers, then setting. And so the transformation.

But nothing indicates the transformation itself takes place in different layers. If apostles are taken to a place next to the Vortex (the Escher zone), and seeing how Griffith descended to where the Idea of Evil dwells... Same general area.

Daijyashin said:
Infact I said for all that we know.

Well, for all we know it's not the case.

Daijyashin said:
I meant that, for that we know, humans don't want to rest in peace, but their will is to go in to the Vortex. Then in Hell.

But that's not true. There's no ground for this assertion. Why would humans want to go to "hell" after dying? Why wouldn't they want to rest in peace? Clearly it's not a conscious desire on anyone's part. No one's will is to end up in the Vortex of Souls as we know it, especially since no one knows of its existence. Like Flora said, it's divided according to personal karma, so people are assigned a place there depending on how they lived their life. That is what we know.

Daijyashin said:
I think that Idea of Evil represents all mankind

It represents the evil in all mankind. That's all (that's why it's the Idea of Evil). It isn't equivalent with humanity as a whole. And mankind definitely isn't completely and utterly evil. Like I said you're taking logical leaps that don't make sense to come to your conclusions.

Daijyashin said:
Then when I say that men reject the good magic, I mean that although some men made "ancient deals" such as the one mentioned from the spirit of water in Enoch (so there was a good help from nature to men)

That magic isn't necessarily "good" as you seem to mean it. At least nothing certifies it. I doubt that those spiritual beings really understand the concept of good and evil like humans do. Those we've seen so far didn't seem concerned by them. And you're mislabeling it by relating it to "nature" like that. "Elemental" would probably be more apt an appellation. Also, we don't know the details of how the Idea of Evil came to be, nor how widespread magic was before and why or how things changed over time (beyond the case of the Holy See's doctrine supplanting previous worshipping). So there's really not much to be said with any certainty in that regard.

Daijyashin said:
And she listed many human feelings, looking the rape. Even the good one such as love. So I think she was making a general statement upon men, but it's just my thought.

Sorry but you think wrong, and this definitely can't serve as an example for what you were saying.

Daijyashin said:
Yes there's no evidence that Idea reorganized anything, but there's no evidence even when you say that those feelings must have already been there. You are just assuming it.

No I'm not assuming anything, it's what the Idea of Evil says itself. It's shown in episode 83 with pictures of people looking miserable and all. Is it asking too much that people at least verify the material we're talking about before replying?

Daijyashin said:
I think, but it's just my opinion, that God was born after men, beacouse the feelings must have been left necessarely from humans. If those feelings must have already been there, who would have produced that ocean?

Are you seriously asking me this? Maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about what I say before responding.

Humans have feelings as soon as they're born. So as humans came to be, their collective consciousness formed an ocean of feelings. After a long, long time, because they desired reasons for things they couldn't understand, the swells of the dark side of that ocean gave birth to the Idea of Evil. What is it you don't get here?
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
You think wrong, and this definitely can't serve as an example for what you were saying.

On this I'm glad to think wrong. :serpico:

Aazealh said:
No I'm not assuming anything, it's what the Idea of Evil says itself. It's shown in episode 83 with pictures of people looking miserable and all. Is it asking too much that people at least verify the material we're talking about before replying?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The speech was based on the hypothesis that men could have had feelings, that gave birth to the Ocean before the Idea would have been born as the ego of the Vortex.
In that case, we were wondering when was the exact moment that the Idea was born, and so I speculated that maybe Idea was born when the men start to feel, or when the evolution gave to monkeys a good brain.
So It's clear that everything you said is in the episode 83, but the main focus was different.

Aazealh said:
Are you seriously asking me this? Maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about what I say before responding.

Humans have feelings as soon as they're born. So as humans came to be, their collective consciousness formed an ocean of feelings. After a long, long time, because they desired reasons for things they couldn't understand, the swells of the dark side of that ocean gave birth to the Idea of Evil. What is it you don't get here?

I think that there's another misunderstanding even here. I know that it as you say, but the main focus was the doubt of before(when was born Idea if there were men before her?)
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
We know nothing of the Idea of Evil's goals. We only surmise what they are. And if we are to believe what the Idea of Evil said, it is one with the darkness in every human heart, and therefore might not require to further its existence at all.

True, but its name is the Idea of Evil, so I doubt that any of its motivations involve any good intentions for man, and I assume that by having the name Idea of Evil it's existence requires evil to exist in the hearts of humans or atleast for evil to exist as a whole.


Aazealh said:
Schierke didn't mention anything.

I'll concead this part of the discussion because I really don't remember reading this in the manga, and honestly I'm not sure if I read it in Berserk wikia or even in this thread, however I remember that where ever I got it from referenced the part at the mansion in which Schierke explained the interstice to Guts, and I haven't read that episode in a while.

Aazealh said:
Truly good humans? Do they exist? Is there not darkness in every human heart, even in small quantity? It can't be asserted with any sort of proof.

In real life no, in Berserk... maybe. Miura can make any character he wants, who's to say that he doesn't make someone that resembles a paladin like in other forms of fantasy? I'm not saying its likely, but if there aren't any pure hearted humans then that implies that all human souls go to the Vortex.


Aazealh said:
Firstly, there's no need for someone to govern anything. Read again why the Idea of Evil was born. It wasn't to govern. Secondly, Elves (what is it you qualify as "fairies" exactly?) aren't human. They aren't related to the Idea of Evil, nor to mankind. They are "governed" by the four elemental kings. Thirdly, not all astral creatures are good, and the concept of good and bad might not be applicable to them in the way it is for humans.

Maybe bad choice of words, however you seem to have gotten what I meant when you replied, "They are governed by the four elemental kings", and I had forgotten them, but I was merely implying that I couldn't see the ideal world as a place where good or evil alignments didn't exist, since it is the pure essence of EVERY type of being you would assume that those who were good and those who were evil in their lives would retain that intentionality within the ideal world, so basically if the Idea of Evil is the Alpha/leader of those of evil alignment then you obviously know where I'm going with this. Also I never said all astral beings are good, all I was refering to were the elves. I also think good could mean lacking all negative corruption, or simply mean pure, and maybe humans are by default inpure, which would explain how a seemingly good person could end up in the vortex of Souls, its an idea that is seen in Christianity in that every person is born a sinner. I'm not saying this is the case, but besides Miura who else knows?

Aazealh said:
We don't know that. There's no indication that the Idea of Evil needs to do anything to "maintain" its existence at all. Again, if we are to believe what it says itself, then it manipulates the world in order to provide humans with "reasons for the destiny that keeps transcending their knowledge".

Although this discussion is in the wrong thread (my bad) this is a speculation thread so what's the point of speculating if we know the answer? Now if your asking, "what am I basing my speculations off?", well my answer is that its called the Idea of Evil and that is enough to reasonably assume that it would want evil to continue to exist, and that since it is the representation of evil within man (or atleast the thing that provides reason for the destiny that transcends human knowledge), in order for it to exist it must have something that it manipulates causality in order to explain, and we know that the only thing that it seems to explain is suffering, pain, anguish, death, etc; all of which still mean suffering. Since it is an ideal, then you can reasonably assume that without those unfortunate things happening then there is no idea of evil (the actual word evil, not the being called the Idea of Evil) that people can use to provide reasons for why bad things happen because there would be no bad things happening, which was I atleast speculate that it would cease to exist, which was the point of my long winded post.

Aazealh said:
Definitely not. The Idea of Evil isn't omnipotent. It didn't create the world it exists in, nor does it predate it. Do not attribute it powers and qualities that it doesn't have. This is why, among other things, the capitalization of the 'G' in "god" remains debatable in its case.

I'm not attributing anything to it, I said "purportedly" and not by me either. In fact, my whole point was that the Idea does not seem to be the Alpha and Omega of Berserk. I was implying that someone had to have created the world, humans and the like, because its doubtful that the theory of evolution (and I'm not saying Idea of Evolution :serpico:) would apply to a series that is fantasy and filled with elves (didn't mean to say fairies but when you imagine Puck he sure looks like one) and other fantasy creatures, so as has been stated before (by you in fact, or atleast I'm pretty sure) we don't know Berserk's genesis, I just wondered who really did create the Earth of Berserk, all long with the layers of existence, or if someone didn't create it then what lead to it's creation.

Aazealh said:
Your logic is flawed. Check episode 83 again: "An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls." This is what gave birth to the Idea of Evil. The ocean's dark side, to be precise. It preceded the Idea of Evil. And if there's a dark side, then there can be a light one, which would be "heaven" or something approaching.

You can't get out of that one so easily, then who pretell created the humans who could have feelings to begin with? Hell, who created the layers of existence so that those feelings that humans had could coalesce into an ocean so that there could even be a light and dark side to the ocean? So its a little to early to say that the gist of my reasoning is flawed, maybe just a few of the details, and that's because I had to read 83 off the internet.

Aazealh said:
The answer to your question lies in plain sight in episode 83.


It's wrong to just say it was created by suffering, but beyond that, there doesn't need to be a reason for people's misery. People get sick and die without reason other than a virus being there at the time. There's a lot in life that doesn't have an easy-to-comprehend reason. But humanity couldn't be a peace with that. That's why the Idea of Evil was created.

The born from suffering just comes from Berserk wiki, and all suffering is is a generalization of all those perceivably bad things that you're quoting, the Idea was being a little redundant there because everything it said that it existed in order to explain create suffering in humanity.

Aazealh said:
No, that doesn't imply this at all. In fact it's pretty much the contrary. I think you're stuck on an Abrahamic-like definition of "God" and it's clearly not what the Idea of Evil is.

I don't see how its contrary to what I said so when you reply please clarify. I will try to clarify what I was saying however. I'm really not stuck on any definition, if a God doesn't create then what does it do? In fact the Idea does create, it created the God Hand, of which we know for certain, since the vortex is evil and someone or something had to have created it, and since it is the Idea of Evil it seems likely that it created the vortex.

Aazealh said:
Who knows? Maybe nothing did. Maybe they evolved from unicellular organisms over a long long time. :carcus:

Lol, not very likely in a realm of large disembodied hearts that represent intangible ideas.

Aazealh said:
Well you're not one to say who gets to have what title in Berserk. The fact is the only God we know of in Berserk is the Idea of Evil, and it's not very likely that a new one will be introduced. That talk of "God of all layers" or whatever is kind of missing the point I think. The different aspects of the world influence each other and so the Idea of Evil can influence the corporeal world to a rather large extent. Is there a material God for it? I really don't think so.

I'm not saying anything as if its law, I said I'm seriously starting to believe such and such based off inferences, so am I not allowed to speculate? How is a God of all layers missing the point? My point is that those layers had to come into formation somehow, and in a series that emphasizes causality that would be a big point to me. Now you could argue that this could continue forever by saying who created the God that created everything? But then again then that would mean that that God would still not be the true Alpha and Omega.

Now I've seen a lot of parallels in the Idea of Evil to the Judeo-Christrian Devil, in fact just as the Idea of Evil is called the Ideal God of this world the Devil is known in the Bible to be the God of this system, however based off that faith he is not the true God of everything, he is merely the one who directly influences the world as it is and does so by providing misery and suffering, just like the idea seems to provide reasoning for those things existence by causing more misery and suffering. The Judeo-Christian Devil has his demons, just as the Idea has his apostles and God Hand, and who could argue that Griffith is not comparable to the Anti-Christ? So far to me the elves are at the same level in the good alignment hierarchy as the apostles are in the evil one, I'd say that the Four Kings are polar opposite of the God Hand, not the Idea of Evil. I know you don't think that there is or will be an Idea of Good, but you see my reasoning. Finally, humans don't only seek for an explanation to bad things, but the good as well which is the whole idea of miracles, so who besides Miura himself is to say an Idea of Good couldn't have formed in the same way as the Idea of Evil?


Aazealh said:
What you want is a typical creator God: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, transcendent, eternal and sovereign. There is none in Berserk at this point, and personally I don't think there's a necessarily need for one. As for the Idea of Evil and what it is, its name should be enough of an indication. From what it tells Griffith in episode 83, it is present in every human heart and controls mankind's destiny. I think that's enough of a feat to be called God. However, that doesn't automatically mean it has other characteristics that you would usually associate with a typical Creator-type God.

I don't have a want for that, I'm just trying to find details that could further develop what the Idea truly is. And as I said earlier in this post what is a God if it doesn't create? Even so called Gods of Destructions create destruction, and the Idea has created something and that would be the God Hand. As for there not being a creator in the Berserk world, well there may or may not be one Miura's head/overall plan for the Manga, we just haven't seen anything to confirm or refute that idea, all I'm doing is speculating.

And again my bad about taking this thread off on another tangent so if you lock it please move this posts to the Idea of Evil. Thanks if you do.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Guts' intestines said:
Its name is the Idea of Evil, so I doubt that any of its motivations involve any good intentions for man, and I assume that by having the name Idea of Evil it's existence requires evil to exist in the hearts of humans or atleast for evil to exist as a whole.

I agree with this.

Guts' intestines said:
In real life no, in Berserk... maybe. Miura can make any character he wants, who's to say that he doesn't make someone that resembles a paladin like in other forms of fantasy? I'm not saying its likely, but if there aren't any pure hearted humans then that implies that all human souls go to the Vortex

I think this discussion hinges on what constitutes "pure" in the Berserk universe, and as such, it can't be answered.

Guts' intestines said:
If the Idea of Evil is the Alpha/leader of those of evil alignment then you obviously know where I'm going with this.

I don't believe Idea is a leader in the way I think you mean. He may manipulate causality to create the conditions that give rise to his servants, but he's not known to give them direct instructions. And why does Berserk require the duality that Christianity absorbed from Zoroastrianism?

Guts' intestines said:
Its an idea that is seen in Christianity in that every person is born a sinner.

And the Idea was born from the darkness that dwells in "every human heart." But we don't know that having those subconscious desires makes one "evil" in the Berserk universe. Again, this is a discussion that requires an understanding that doesn't exist.

Guts' intestines said:
My whole point was that the Idea does not seem to be the Alpha and Omega of Berserk. I was implying that someone had to have created the world, humans and the like, because its doubtful that the theory of evolution (and I'm not saying Idea of Evolution :serpico:) would apply to a series that is fantasy and filled with elves (didn't mean to say fairies but when you imagine Puck he sure looks like one) and other fantasy creatures, so as has been stated before (by you in fact, or atleast I'm pretty sure) we don't know Berserk's genesis, I just wondered who really did create the Earth of Berserk, all long with the layers of existence, or if someone didn't create it then what lead to it's creation . . . You can't get out of that one so easily, then who pretell created the humans who could have feelings to begin with? Hell, who created the layers of existence so that those feelings that humans had could coalesce into an ocean so that there could even be a light and dark side to the ocean?

It is possible that some evolutionary force gave rise to elves. And are you attempting to introduce intelligent design into the curriculum? I don't think Berserk needs a creator any more than our world does. If it has one, so be it - but it's not a necessity.

Guts' intestines said:
If a God doesn't create then what does it do?

A god could just control, or in Idea's case, manipulate. There are examples in our own mythologies as well, especially Greco-Roman and Norse traditions.

Guts' intestines said:
In fact the Idea does create, it created the God Hand, of which we know for certain, since the vortex is evil and someone or something had to have created it, and since it is the Idea of Evil it seems likely that it created the vortex.

No, it doesn't need a creator. But to humor you, in Christian tradition, Satan did not create Hell.

Guts' intestines said:
How is a God of all layers missing the point? My point is that those layers had to come into formation somehow, and in a series that emphasizes causality that would be a big point to me. Now you could argue that this could continue forever by saying who created the God that created everything? But then again then that would mean that that God would still not be the true Alpha and Omega.

But why does there need to be?

Guts' intestines said:
Now I've seen a lot of parallels in the Idea of Evil to the Judeo-Christrian Devil, in fact just as the Idea of Evil is called the Ideal God of this world the Devil is known in the Bible to be the God of this system, however based off that faith he is not the true God of everything, he is merely the one who directly influences the world as it is and does so by providing misery and suffering, just like the idea seems to provide reasoning for those things existence by causing more misery and suffering. The Judeo-Christian Devil has his demons, just as the Idea has his apostles and God Hand, and who could argue that Griffith is not comparable to the Anti-Christ? So far to me the elves are at the same level in the good alignment hierarchy as the apostles are in the evil one, I'd say that the Four Kings are polar opposite of the God Hand, not the Idea of Evil. I know you don't think that there is or will be an Idea of Good, but you see my reasoning.

You know, a lot of people kept attributing a Christian allegory to The Lord of the Rings, even after Tolkein vehemently denied that it was intended. Not every work of literature has to mirror the Christian belief in God and his unequal opposite, Satan.

Guts' intestines said:
Finally, humans don't only seek for an explanation to bad things, but the good as well which is the whole idea of miracles, so who besides Miura himself is to say an Idea of Good couldn't have formed in the same way as the Idea of Evil?

Have we seen any true "miracles" in Berserk?

I think you would do well to remember that Berserk doesn't need to conform to any one worldview. In fact, part of its genius is that it successfully draws from a number of beliefs and philosophies. However, Miura also colors these parallels with his own ideas, in such a way that, in many cases, linking them back to their origin is a speculation in and of itself.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Walter said:
I don't think this thread survived being sacrificed by all these stilted posts. :judo:

You're right, but I just can't help responding and I'll try to keep this response to Einherjar short.

I don't believe Idea is a leader in the way I think you mean. He may manipulate causality to create the conditions that give rise to his servants, but he's not known to give them direct instructions. And why does Berserk require the duality that Christianity absorbed from Zoroastrianism?

That's why I put alpha first, as in just the highest among evil beings, even if he manipulated causality to create and to command the God Hand, that doesn't change the fact that he did indeed create them and that he does indeed lead them no matter how indirectly, hell its not like they are unaware of him anyway, they do what they want to do but that's what the Idea wants them to do anyway, we already know that they carry out his will so let's not argue that. Duality is found in many religions, and its hard to not have duality especially in a story when there are beings of evil intent such as the Idea, the God Hand, and the Apostles, and beings of peace such as elves and good willed magic users.

And the Idea was born from the darkness that dwells in "every human heart." But we don't know that having those subconscious desires makes one "evil" in the Berserk universe. Again, this is a discussion that requires an understanding that doesn't exist.

Yes we do, its all based off karma and even those subconscious thoughts are enough to harbor darkness within you which is why Aaz argued if there are truly any completely good people who could get around this.
On a quick side note to Aaz: Schierke does mention heaven and its in this thread in one of Walter's posts, but I'll just use his reference:

So there are many spirits wandering there, their own death unnoticed...
Fixated on memories of this world.
In time, most of them accept their own deaths, or become unable to maintain their original shape, and so fade away to other streams.
And in the depths of the shadow world...
Lies a realm so transformed, so unlike our own world, that we cannot even begin to imagine it.
In this place live huge astral bodies...
Utterly unlike the ethereal bodies of humans.
They are called angels, or devils, or the gods of polytheism.

104
And below that...
Is where people, according to their karma,
May find the realms known as heaven or hell.

It is possible that some evolutionary force gave rise to elves. And are you attempting to introduce intelligent design into the curriculum? I don't think Berserk needs a creator any more than our world does. If it has one, so be it - but it's not a necessity.

I might've agreed with you, however in a series in which causality plays an important role things must have causes for them to be, there are multiple layers of existence in Berserk= effect, and as of yet we haven't been told a cause for their existence along with those other things I mentioned, and we may never know, it all depends on how far Miura chooses to flesh out the Berserk Universe.

A god could just control, or in Idea's case, manipulate. There are examples in our own mythologies as well, especially Greco-Roman and Norse traditions.

And in both those mythologies all of the Gods created something or gave birth to other Gods that created something, off the top of my head I can remember that Freyr was the God of fertility in Norse mythology and that Norns was the God I believe of Destiny or Fate. Greco-Roman mythology is full of a creation (a lot of accidental ones or ones meant to be punishments), its just that the Gods were flawed much like man, especially Zeus who took lechery to a whole other level. Prometheus created mankind, and there's the story of Gaia and Chaos that explains how the universe of Greek mythology came to be, the Greeks used myths to explain the world around them, they merely spoke of incorrect causes to explain effects that they saw.

No, it doesn't need a creator. But to humor you, in Christian tradition, Satan did not create Hell.

Yeah but he did lead other angels to his side, and these fallen angels became demons and although apostles and the God Hand aren't fallen angels they both clearly have similarities to demons and the God Hand are said to be the Idea's angels. I never said that Berserk is 1:1 to any religious work but people tend to be influenced by literature that has preceded their works, even if they don't intend this. This explains the Tolkien thing, (I had done a paper in high school about tolkien and read that in a literary criticism) because Tolkien was a devout Catholic so even if he didn't intend for it doesn't mean some of his true beliefs couldn't have made it's way into the major works of his life, secondly although he based some of it off of Anglo-Saxon paganism it was Beowulf that he got the heaviest influence, which is an Anglo-Saxon work which involves a decent amount of Christian references.

Have we seen any true "miracles" in Berserk?

I think you would do well to remember that Berserk doesn't need to conform to any one worldview. In fact, part of its genius is that it successfully draws from a number of beliefs and philosophies. However, Miura also colors these parallels with his own ideas, in such a way that, in many cases, linking them back to their origin is a speculation in and of itself.

We've seen some crazy ass shit in Berserk, so nuff said (Griffith's incarnation, although I don't think its a miracle in the good sense of the word) and if Casca is helped in the way that we expect her to be helped by Hanafubuku Oh then what would you call that?

I never once forgot that, however I acknowledge the influences that in my eyes are clear in Berserk, really what truly unique piece of writing can we name that has came out in any of our life times? Just by being able to place Berserk in the fantasy genre you are admitting that it bears similarities to works of the same genre that preceded it, my point was just that it isn't unreasonable to speculate in the way that I'm doing, and I made it clear that I was only speculating.

Tried to keep it short and I failed miserably :guts:.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Guts' intestines said:
In real life no, in Berserk... maybe. Miura can make any character he wants, who's to say that he doesn't make someone that resembles a paladin like in other forms of fantasy? I'm not saying its likely, but if there aren't any pure hearted humans then that implies that all human souls go to the Vortex.

I think that the only one character truly good in Berserk is just Luka.

Guts' intestines said:
Although this discussion is in the wrong thread (my bad) this is a speculation thread so what's the point of speculating if we know the answer? Now if your asking, "what am I basing my speculations off?", well my answer is that its called the Idea of Evil and that is enough to reasonably assume that it would want evil to continue to exist, and that since it is the representation of evil within man (or atleast the thing that provides reason for the destiny that transcends human knowledge), in order for it to exist it must have something that it manipulates causality in order to explain, and we know that the only thing that it seems to explain is suffering, pain, anguish, death, etc; all of which still mean suffering. Since it is an ideal, then you can reasonably assume that without those unfortunate things happening then there is no idea of evil (the actual word evil, not the being called the Idea of Evil) that people can use to provide reasons for why bad things happen because there would be no bad things happening, which was I atleast speculate that it would cease to exist, which was the point of my long winded post.

Absolute quote for you. If in this board every speculation or thought must be beat down with few statement written in Berserk as answers the debate dies. And however making so, I think that there's no way of killing any doubts or solving problems that still remain TO ME. Infact when a post is good to me, I have no problem in admit my errors or to give reason to other. As I said I am for good debate without personal challenges. That's my point of view anyway.
And I agree with you when you think that the Idea of Evil would want evil to continue to exist, becasue as she says, this God obey to the essence of the human breed that crave for this.
 
Daijyashin said:
I think that the only one character truly good in Berserk is just Luka.

I doubt it. Let's face it, we don't know what qualifies as good or evil in Berserk. Vargas was a coward in a way and all he wanted was revenge. Did he truly deserve to go to the Vortex of Souls just because he wanted revenge on the Count. Or were there other factors involved. Besides, different cultures and religions have different definitions of good and evil. Not to mention that Berserk is Miura's work and it may have a completely unique definition for good and evil.

Luca is a prostitute. That may already qualify her for the Vortex of Souls.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Ramen4ever said:
I doubt it. Let's face it, we don't know what qualifies as good or evil in Berserk. Vargas was a coward in a way and all he wanted was revenge. Did he truly deserve to go to the Vortex of Souls just because he wanted revenge on the Count. Or were there other factors involved. Besides, different cultures and religions have different definitions of good and evil. Not to mention that Berserk is Miura's work and it may have a completely unique definition for good and evil.

Luka is a prostitute. That may already qualify her for the Vortex of Souls.

Yes of course. It's just my thought. Probably she will go to the Vortex.
 
Daijyashin said:
Yes of course. It's just my thought. Probably she will go to the Vortex.

I think you missed the point. She might not go to the Vortex. The point being that we lack the information to come to a truly reasonable conclusion. We don't know how the Berserk universe works. We just have bits and pieces.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Ramen4ever said:
I think you missed the point. She might not go to the Vortex. The point being that we lack the information to come to a truly reasonable conclusion. We don't know how the Berserk universe works. We just have bits and pieces.

If I say that to me Luka is truly good, I just consider her behaviour. Of course we have few pieces and my thought is fully debatable, I have no absolute truth about it. :serpico:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Alright guys, since the thread's kind of derailed but would be difficult to split cleanly (both topics got mixed in several posts), let's try to just resolve the argument to some extent before starting a new thread to hold it, assuming it's necessary. Of course, as a reminder let's all try to avoid derailing threads when possible. :SK:

Daijyashin said:
On this I'm glad to think wrong. :serpico:

Uhhh yeah? Ok I guess.

Daijyashin said:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The speech was based on the hypothesis that men could have had feelings, that gave birth to the Ocean before the Idea would have been born as the ego of the Vortex.
In that case, we were wondering when was the exact moment that the Idea was born, and so I speculated that maybe Idea was born when the men start to feel, or when the evolution gave to monkeys a good brain.

But think about what you're saying. You're contradicting yourself. If the ocean of feelings was there before the Idea of Evil, then humans started to feel before it was born. We can know that through simple deduction.

Daijyashin said:
I think that there's another misunderstanding even here. I know that it as you say, but the main focus was the doubt of before(when was born Idea if there were men before her?)

We don't know when it was born. That's simple enough. :idea:

Guts' intestines said:
I assume that by having the name Idea of Evil it's existence requires evil to exist in the hearts of humans or atleast for evil to exist as a whole.

We don't know if its existence requires anything. But anyway, bad feelings will always exist in the hearts of humans. Pain, greed, fear, envy... It's part of what humans are.

Guts' intestines said:
I'll concead this part of the discussion because I really don't remember reading this in the manga

Everything there's in the manga on the subject has been posted in this thread. You're probably mistaken with what Flora said.

Guts' intestines said:
In real life no, in Berserk... maybe. Miura can make any character he wants, who's to say that he doesn't make someone that resembles a paladin like in other forms of fantasy? I'm not saying its likely, but if there aren't any pure hearted humans then that implies that all human souls go to the Vortex.

Azan is the closest you'll come to a RPG-like Paladin in Berserk. But that's unrelated. One doesn't need to be purely made of good feelings (which is impossible) to have a good karma. I don't know why you would think so.

Guts' intestines said:
Maybe bad choice of words, however you seem to have gotten what I meant when you replied, "They are governed by the four elemental kings", and I had forgotten them, but I was merely implying that I couldn't see the ideal world as a place where good or evil alignments didn't exist, since it is the pure essence of EVERY type of being

The ocean of feelings mentioned in episode 83 is described as being "terribly human". Seeing as how we know little to nothing about it, don't be too quick in asserting that every type of being is related to it. The Ideal world is probably a very vast place, and we don't know its extent, what it is composed of or how it is organized. There might be more distinctions to it than "Good" and "Evil" as well.

Guts' intestines said:
you would assume that those who were good and those who were evil in their lives would retain that intentionality within the ideal world

They are divided according to their personal karma, and in the case of the Vortex of Souls, merged all together as one entity. I think it's simple enough not to have to awkwardly reformulate it into a talk about "intentionality".

Guts' intestines said:
so basically if the Idea of Evil is the Alpha/leader of those of evil alignment then you obviously know where I'm going with this

The Idea of Evil is a God, not the leader of a group of chimpanzees. It is one with the darkness in every human heart, a part of each human, and vice versa. You're not thinking things correctly and I wish you would actually pay attention to what people are telling you to remedy this. Every human has some darkness in his or her heart, and that darkness is connected to the Idea of Evil. This isn't a RPG we're talking about, so please stop trying to apply some simplified logic to everything.

Guts' intestines said:
I also think good could mean lacking all negative corruption, or simply mean pure

"Good" and "Pure" are different notions, and I wouldn't equate them with one another. For example, the Idea of Evil is, by definition, pure evil. And an elemental being linked to fire could be pure fire, without necessarily being good.

Guts' intestines said:
and maybe humans are by default inpure, which would explain how a seemingly good person could end up in the vortex of Souls

Every human being has a part of darkness inside him or her. There's no need to reduce it to pure or impure. You talk of Christianity, but it's obviously not the inspiration here. Maybe you should look more into the concept of Karma.

Guts' intestines said:
Although this discussion is in the wrong thread (my bad) this is a speculation thread so what's the point of speculating if we know the answer?

Speculating isn't so much the problem as is saying "we know" when we don't. That's not acceptable simply because it leads to confusion.

Guts' intestines said:
its called the Idea of Evil and that is enough to reasonably assume that it would want evil to continue to exist

Well, if it is the Idea of Evil, the concept of Evil itself, then it should suffice to itself to exist, since it IS Evil. Rather, existing at the bottom of the world, it can influence all the rest from there. And once more, darkness is a part of mankind that will always be there. Maintaining its existence doesn't seem to be its concern.

Remember what it was created for and what it says it does. Remember what it tells Griffith: "Your desire is my desire as well. Your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole. May those actions bring pain or salvation to the men." It's pretty clearly the overseer of humankind as a whole and without regards to much else. I don't think it's wise to try to fit it into a mold and to second guess its intentions, though of course due to its nature it makes sense to imagine that it wants to further evil in the world. In the end we know it's sinister, that much is easy to say. But beyond that, in detail? We don't really know.

Guts' intestines said:
and that since it is the representation of evil within man (or atleast the thing that provides reason for the destiny that transcends human knowledge)

It's both of those things. The point is that it goes beyond simply being "evil".

Guts' intestines said:
in order for it to exist it must have something that it manipulates causality in order to explain

What?

Guts' intestines said:
we know that the only thing that it seems to explain is suffering, pain, anguish, death, etc; all of which still mean suffering.

I don't know where you got that from. Didn't you read what I quoted you from episode 83? You're not going to prove a point here by limiting the scope of what the Idea of Evil does to a single thing... Humans wanted reasons for things they didn't understand (i.e. that transcended their knowledge). The Idea of Evil provides those reason, but obviously with a twist, as it is the embodiment of evil.

Guts' intestines said:
Since it is an ideal, then you can reasonably assume that without those unfortunate things happening then there is no idea of evil (the actual word evil, not the being called the Idea of Evil) that people can use to provide reasons for why bad things happen because there would be no bad things happening, which was I atleast speculate that it would cease to exist, which was the point of my long winded post.

If evil didn't exist then people wouldn't know what evil was. Is that all you wanted to say? Because it's both pretty obvious and besides the point. Unfortunate things happen, that's how life is. People live, people die. And people harbor feelings that aren't always noble. It's the nature of man. Those feelings can't cease to exist outside of the wildest, least likely speculation ever.

Guts' intestines said:
I'm not attributing anything to it, I said "purportedly" and not by me either.

And what you said is wrong. Nothing's purported here, the Idea of Evil is the only God we know of in Berserk and that's that. Yet it doesn't imply all of what you were meaning it to.

Guts' intestines said:
I was implying that someone had to have created the world, humans and the like, because its doubtful that the theory of evolution (and I'm not saying Idea of Evolution :serpico:) would apply to a series that is fantasy and filled with elves

I don't think it's doubtful and I see no reason for anyone to think it would be the case.

Guts' intestines said:
we don't know Berserk's genesis, I just wondered who really did create the Earth of Berserk, all long with the layers of existence, or if someone didn't create it then what lead to it's creation.

Indeed, we don't know about it. We know it has nothing to do with the Idea of Evil though, who's in turn the only God we know of in Berserk, and who seems to be overseeing mankind's destiny without opposition.

Guts' intestines said:
You can't get out of that one so easily, then who pretell created the humans who could have feelings to begin with? Hell, who created the layers of existence so that those feelings that humans had could coalesce into an ocean so that there could even be a light and dark side to the ocean?

Hahaha, do you think you're arguing against me or something? I don't have to "get out" of anything, I'm just explaining you things as they are to help you understand them better. The answer to your question is that we don't know how the world came to be. And in the end, it's not very important to the story at this point. Also, just to be sure, you meant "pray tell", right?

Guts' intestines said:
So its a little to early to say that the gist of my reasoning is flawed, maybe just a few of the details, and that's because I had to read 83 off the internet.

You said that if there's a heaven it would have to have been created by someone else, based on your misconceptions about the Idea of Evil's nature. I don't think I was wrong to say your logic was flawed. And if you want to know more about episode 83 or what can be understood from it, you could go and read older threads on the subject or even ask direct questions in a new thread. Don't hesitate.

Your know, it's Ok not to get some parts of the more obscure cosmological aspects of Berserk. We're not in a contest here and you don't have to "defend" yourself because there are no attacks. Some things you said were wrong and it's no big deal. Now you know better. Struggling to find an angle at which the misconceptions might perhaps not be 100% sure wrong is IMHO just a waste of time and efforts in bad faith that yields no results in the end. Just take it easy and accept the knowledge the elders are blessing you with, then your own reflexions will take you to the right answers. :carcus:

Guts' intestines said:
The born from suffering just comes from Berserk wiki, and all suffering is is a generalization of all those perceivably bad things that you're quoting

Oh come on, what are those crappy sources? Please, generalizations aren't good when precision is needed. If you want solid arguments then you should only base yourself on the manga. :miura:

Guts' intestines said:
the Idea was being a little redundant there because everything it said that it existed in order to explain create suffering in humanity.

No, it goes beyond that, to the fact that people couldn't understand why things were happening. Imagine folks in the real world 2000 years ago. A thunderstorm? God must be angry. Plague strikes a town? God must be angry. Why does fruit goes here and not there? Must be the will of God. The point is that people didn't know how the world worked. But do people tend to question their good fortune when it happens? Do people wonder why they're happy? Nope, but they sure wonder why bad luck has to fall on them and not on their neighbors.

Guts' intestines said:
I don't see how its contrary to what I said so when you reply please clarify.

You said: "since we agree that the Vortex of Souls is an evil thing, and since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls".

It's the contrary because the Idea of Evil was born from the ocean of feelings that it floats in, and not the other way around. And the Vortex of Souls comes from there.

Guts' intestines said:
if a God doesn't create then what does it do?

Control destiny? There are many, many definitions to what a god can be. If you can't envision other things then you probably should go read material on the subject. And we're not talking about simply creating things here but being the grand creator of all things, the archetypical creator of the world.

Guts' intestines said:
In fact the Idea does create, it created the God Hand

Yes, it gave some chosen humans powers, and? Did I say otherwise? By "Creator" it's understood people mean a God that created the whole universe and exists outside of it. It's not just about creating anything. My, do really I have to explain things like this?

Guts' intestines said:
since the vortex is evil and someone or something had to have created it, and since it is the Idea of Evil it seems likely that it created the vortex.

The ocean of feelings around the Idea of Evil comes from humans. And since the Idea of Evil was born from it, it couldn't have created it.

Guts' intestines said:
Lol, not very likely in a realm of large disembodied hearts that represent intangible ideas.

I don't see why it wouldn't be likely. It's certainly not less likely than a supreme being we've never heard of having created everything.

Guts' intestines said:
I'm not saying anything as if its law, I said I'm seriously starting to believe such and such based off inferences, so am I not allowed to speculate?

You're allowed to speculate, don't start with this whiny bullshit. This thread was derailed and your "inferences" go against what's in the manga, so don't be surprised to be told you're wrong. Maybe you'd realize it if you actually read the source material and paid attention to what people were telling you.

Guts' intestines said:
How is a God of all layers missing the point? My point is that those layers had to come into formation somehow, and in a series that emphasizes causality that would be a big point to me.

First you have to define what you call "layers". We know that the astral world is composed of several layers. However, the world itself is comprised of 3 distinct aspects: the corporeal, the astral and the ideal. And those 3 aspects make a whole. One world. The ideal affects the corporeal. The Idea of Evil influences events that occur in a different part of the world. It's not limited to a specific one. Don't you see? What you're saying makes it look like you don't understand how the world of Berserk works.

You were talking of the Idea of Evil's goals earlier. Well nowadays the different aspects of the world are merging into one in Berserk. Who do you think made this happen?

Guts' intestines said:
Now you could argue that this could continue forever by saying who created the God that created everything? But then again then that would mean that that God would still not be the true Alpha and Omega.

You tell me you're not stuck on Abrahamic concepts and yet you keep spouting lines straight out of the Bible. Anyway, yes indeed I could tell you so and you'd have nothing to say about it. This is all just fruitless speculation and it holds very little interest overall, no matter how you look at it. You can argue all you want about it because it's so distanced from the story, so ungrounded that it can't be proven or disproven in any way. We don't know what created the world and we can't guess it. That's the final word on the matter.

Guts' intestines said:
Now I've seen a lot of parallels in the Idea of Evil to the Judeo-Christrian Devil

Big surprise there. And seeing how different the two concepts are from each other it really makes me wonder about the depth of your misunderstanding. You probably should abandon all such parallels and think about the whole thing in a fresh way. I'm afraid that otherwise you'll never understand how things are.

Guts' intestines said:
in fact just as the Idea of Evil is called the Ideal God of this world

It's not called that.

Guts' intestines said:
the Devil is known in the Bible to be the God of this system

Two occurrences of the word "God", I smell a strong similarity there! On a side note, you truncated that line (it's "system of things"), but that doesn't really matter.

Guts' intestines said:
however based off that faith

What faith? How is this relevant?

Guts' intestines said:
just like the idea seems to provide reasoning for those things existence by causing more misery and suffering.

Your comparison is flawed. And the Idea of Evil provides reasons for things that transcend human knowledge, not just "suffering". It controls the destiny of men. And it is a part of each human, just as each human's dark feelings are a part of itself. Humans birthed it. Really, that comparison is ridiculous on so many levels it's overwhelming. You're doing no better than comparing Berserk to Spawn here.

Guts' intestines said:
The Judeo-Christian Devil has his demons, just as the Idea has his apostles and God Hand

Not really "just as" it does, no.

Guts' intestines said:
So far to me the elves are at the same level in the good alignment hierarchy as the apostles are in the evil one, I'd say that the Four Kings are polar opposite of the God Hand, not the Idea of Evil.

See, you don't understand what you're talking about, that's the problem. That hierarchy of good and bad alignments only exists in your mind. Elves, the equivalent of apostles? The 4 elemental kings of the world, opposite of the God Hand? You're forcing a comparison on things that can't be compared.

If a distinction had to be made, it would rather be that the God Hand and the apostles come from mankind, whereas the others are astral creature based on the elements. Their nature if fundamentally different. Now, do they seem to be opposing each other? Definitely not. Do they even seem to care about each other? Again, not at all. I can see very well what you're trying to do here. You're bending Berserk so that it can feat the cast you have thought for it. But it doesn't work, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Guts' intestines said:
I know you don't think that there is or will be an Idea of Good

I don't think it's a likely possibility, and I'm aware that absolutely nothing in the manga hints at it. That's all.

Guts' intestines said:
Finally, humans don't only seek for an explanation to bad things, but the good as well

Says who? In my experience, people don't tend to ponder their luck too much compared to how they resent and question their bad luck. That being said, from what it says the Idea of Evil provides reasons for all of humanity, and controls the destiny of every human. It doesn't limit itself to bad things.

Guts' intestines said:
I don't have a want for that, I'm just trying to find details that could further develop what the Idea truly is.

Maybe you should begin by reading the source material instead of second hand wiki articles then, because I don't think anything helpful was found in this thread so far.

Guts' intestines said:
And again my bad about taking this thread off on another tangent so if you lock it please move this posts to the Idea of Evil. Thanks if you do.

Since I'm so nice I'm going to move the posts to a new thread, not to the Idea of Evil directly.

Guts' intestines said:
That's why I put alpha first, as in just the highest among evil beings

It's not really like that. By all means, the Idea of Evil is more the embodiment of Evil itself than anything else. It is one with the evil in every human heart. That's why it's not just a comic book supervillain king of evil but the Idea (as in a Platonic Idea) of it. That's why it's a God.

Guts' intestines said:
even if he manipulated causality to create and to command the God Hand, that doesn't change the fact that he did indeed create them and that he does indeed lead them no matter how indirectly, hell its not like they are unaware of him anyway, they do what they want to do but that's what the Idea wants them to do anyway, we already know that they carry out his will so let's not argue that.

Why wouldn't we argue that? He transformed them into more than humans, and told them to do as they wanted. We're not aware of any prolonged contact between the Idea of Evil and the God Hand, nor of precise instructions or anything. We suppose that they carry out his will through their own will, but then again so does practically every human being if we go that way. They are all manipulated to some extent when it fits it. That's how it was able to do everything it's done.

Guts' intestines said:
Duality is found in many religions, and its hard to not have duality especially in a story when there are beings of evil intent such as the Idea, the God Hand, and the Apostles, and beings of peace such as elves and good willed magic users.

Yet so far there hasn't been any duality in that regard. Elves are non-human beings that are carefree and mischiveous despite being naturally good-natured, and magic users can be good willed or not (Daiba?), but in the end they're humans like the rest of them. There are also good hearted humans that aren't magic users.

Look at it this way: the Idea of Evil, the God Hand and the apostles are all human-based. What is there opposing them among mankind? Nothing that we know of.

Guts' intestines said:
Yes we do, its all based off karma and even those subconscious thoughts are enough to harbor darkness within you which is why Aaz argued if there are truly any completely good people who could get around this.

Be careful though, einherjar made a good point. While the souls of dead people join the Vortex of Souls according to their Karma, the feelings of living people themselves are all linked to the Idea of Evil regardless of whether the person should be considered good overall or not. And those feelings aren't necessarily "evil" either, they're just on the darker scale of things (from pain to fear to despair). It's all tricky notions really, not as easy as you make them out to be.

Guts' intestines said:
On a quick side note to Aaz: Schierke does mention heaven and its in this thread in one of Walter's posts, but I'll just use his reference

No she doesn't. That's Flora talking, and I gave the correct reference on the first page of this thread.

Guts' intestines said:
I might've agreed with you, however in a series in which causality plays an important role things must have causes for them to be

This doesn't disprove or even contradict what einherjar was saying though.

Guts' intestines said:
although apostles and the God Hand aren't fallen angels they both clearly have similarities to demons

They're monsters, what a unique similarity.

Guts' intestines said:
I never said that Berserk is 1:1 to any religious work but people tend to be influenced by literature that has preceded their works, even if they don't intend this.

Maybe you should look at more eastern concepts then. Like Karma.

Guts' intestines said:
We've seen some crazy ass shit in Berserk, so nuff said (Griffith's incarnation, although I don't think its a miracle in the good sense of the word)

Yeah so basically it's not a valid example.

Guts' intestines said:
if Casca is helped in the way that we expect her to be helped by Hanafubuku Oh then what would you call that?

This isn't very important, but when supernatural events are common, they can't really be considered miracles, even if they're a formidable display of power.

Guts' intestines said:
Just by being able to place Berserk in the fantasy genre you are admitting that it bears similarities to works of the same genre that preceded it

If similarities include people fighting with swords then yes, it sure does share similarities. But really, that doesn't lend your speculation any weight.

Anyway, as a summary of this (tedious) scrutiny, I think that you simply do not look at the whole picture from the right angle. Maybe it'd be easier to explain if we talked about it in the chatroom?

Daijyashin said:
I think that the only one character truly good in Berserk is just Luka.

She's definitely a good person. Now, "truly" good as in absolutely so and the only one, I don't really agree.

Daijyashin said:
Absolute quote for you. If in this board every speculation or thought must be beat down with few statement written in Berserk as answers the debate dies. And however making so, I think that there's no way of killing any doubts or solving problems that still remain TO ME.

But you see, debate isn't an end in itself. Debate has to end after a while, when either things have been answered or it's been established that the answers can't be found. When certain facts are unknown and people come saying they must be one way or another, it has to be refuted in order to avoid confusion. And additionally, criticism of a theory can only reinforce it if it proves to be able to stand under scrutiny.

Daijyashin said:
If I say that to me Luka is truly good, I just consider her behaviour. Of course we have few pieces and my thought is fully debatable, I have no absolute truth about it. :serpico:

Yeah but in the context of the thread where people are talking about "absolute good" and such it can be confusing. That's what Ramen wanted to tell you. No big deal.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
Everything there's in the manga on the subject has been posted in this thread. You're probably mistaken with what Flora said.

In that thread I created it said *Aaz I meant Flora, but it doesn't negate my point.


Aazealh said:
Azan is the closest you'll come to a RPG-like Paladin in Berserk. But that's unrelated. One doesn't need to be purely made of good feelings (which is impossible) to have a good karma. I don't know why you would think so.


Because Vargas ended up in the Vortex of Souls and he wasn't evil but was forced to be the Count's doctor by the Count, so if he wasn't evil by deed then the evil must of been from his feelings of revenge. Sorry if it wasn't immediately apparent.

Aazealh said:
The ocean of feelings mentioned in episode 83 is described as being "terribly human". Seeing as how we know little to nothing about it, don't be too quick in asserting that every type of being is related to it. The Ideal world is probably a very vast place, and we don't know its extent, what it is composed of or how it is organized. There might be more distinctions to it than "Good" and "Evil" as well.

I said the IDEAL WORLD, in which all the individualities of all beings. Now do you see?

Aazealh said:
They are divided according to their personal karma, and in the case of the Vortex of Souls, merged all together as one entity. I think it's simple enough not to have to awkwardly reformulate it into a talk about "intentionality".

I quoted the Berserk encyclopedia that is on this very site the wording on there was intentionality, my intention was to prevent someone from misinterpreting me because I copied it nearly verbatim, maybe I should have applied quotations.

Aazealh said:
The Idea of Evil is a God, not the leader of a group of chimpanzees. It is one with the darkness in every human heart, a part of each human, and vice versa. You're not thinking things correctly and I wish you would actually pay attention to what people are telling you to remedy this. Every human has some darkness in his or her heart, and that darkness is connected to the Idea of Evil. This isn't a RPG we're talking about, so please stop trying to apply some simplified logic to everything.

And if I'm doing that you certainly are, all you have to do is look above to see that. By Alpha (hopefully the final time that I have to clarify this) I mean the head of those that are evil. You say he's not a leader of chimpanzees yet there is a clear hierarchy within those of evil alignment: apostles<God Hand<Idea, it really isn't that hard to understand, unless of course you disagree with this.


Aazealh said:
"Good" and "Pure" are different notions, and I wouldn't equate them with one another. For example, the Idea of Evil is, by definition, pure evil. And an elemental being linked to fire could be pure fire, without necessarily being good.

Definition of pure: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pure #7, seriously have ever heard of someone of pure heart? This isn't something that is so foreign, its even cliched. All you stated was another definition of the same word.

Aazealh said:
Every human being has a part of darkness inside him or her. There's no need to reduce it to pure or impure. You talk of Christianity, but it's obviously not the inspiration here. Maybe you should look more into the concept of Karma.

I don't think that's obvious, I'm not the first to draw the connections between this and parts of Christianity, how can you read the connections that I noted and disagree? Does Griffith not resemble the Anti-Christ? Do the God Hand not carry out the will of the idea comparable to the way angels in the Bible do? Hell Ubik even goes around suggesting what people should do in a Gabriel-esque way. The Idea calls himself the Ideal God of this world, and the Devil is said to be the GOD of this system of things, those are a lot of similarities and all I'm doing is speculating, can you not even grant me the fact that my speculations aren't baseless?

Aazealh said:
Speculating isn't so much the problem as is saying "we know" when we don't. That's not acceptable simply because it leads to confusion.

What? All I said that we know for sure are these: "OK, so we know that the Vortex of Souls is the place where both sacrifices and people with any bad karma end up. We also know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Berserk universe (at least from his own words) and he dwells within the vortex of souls/abyss, we know too that the Idea of Evil manipulates causality in order to further his own goals, (which seem mostly to be the furtherance of evil, which by design would further the Idea's existence)" So where do you see within there something that I'm saying that we know for sure that isn't the case? I honestly don't think you fully read my responses. Everything that I said beyond those things above I said were speculations, we are in Speculation Nation. And What I mention is considering the situation with Vargas, it doesn't really conflict with the Karma aspects of Berserk, however it does go with the idea of Christianity that says everyone is born sinners based off the original sin.


Aazealh said:
Well, if it is the Idea of Evil, the concept of Evil itself, then it should suffice to itself to exist, since it IS Evil. Rather, existing at the bottom of the world, it can influence all the rest from there. And once more, darkness is a part of mankind that will always be there. Maintaining its existence doesn't seem to be its concern.

It is the ultimate effect of people questioning why bad things happen, that was why it was born right? Even more so it seems to only seek to continue to maintain those bad things on earth, so based off that I'm speculating that without evil how can there be an Idea of Evil? You're saying that darkness is a part of all mankind and will be so eternally, but there is nothing that says some great Salvation of man is impossible or that their isn't another God other than the Idea of Evil, so again I'm just speculating but what I'm saying is very possible.

Aazealh said:
Remember what it was created for and what it says it does. Remember what it tells Griffith: "Your desire is my desire as well. Your actions themselves shall prove to be suitable for your kind as a whole. May those actions bring pain or salvation to the men." It's pretty clearly the overseer of humankind as a whole and without regards to much else. I don't think it's wise to try to fit it into a mold and to second guess its intentions, though of course due to its nature it makes sense to imagine that it wants to further evil in the world. In the end we know it's sinister, that much is easy to say. But beyond that, in detail? We don't really know.

That's a good point, however if Griffith has bad intentions for the rest of mankind then that would have to mean that the Idea has them as well, unless the Idea says your to mean humanity as a whole, though I doubt it. But if you're admitting to it being sinister then what is your point? It can be the overseer of mankind and still be an evil tyrant, and again you admit that it is evil so I'm pretty sure that would want itself to continue to exist.

Aazealh said:

Explained above but basically the idea says it exists as the thing that provides reasoning for the bad things that happen to man so if no bad things happen then there are no bad things to explain thus no Idea of Evil.

Aazealh said:
I don't know where you got that from. Didn't you read what I quoted you from episode 83? You're not going to prove a point here by limiting the scope of what the Idea of Evil does to a single thing... Humans wanted reasons for things they didn't understand (i.e. that transcended their knowledge). The Idea of Evil provides those reason, but obviously with a twist, as it is the embodiment of evil.

Yes:Reasons for pain
Reasons for sadness
Reasons for life
Reasons for death
Reason why their lives were filled with suffering
Reasons why their deaths were absurd


Is it necessary for me to post all of that when all of those things are related to or cause suffering? Seriously suffering is related to all of those things, again I didn't think it was necessary to constantly post that over and over when it is all related to suffering, if you were to eliminate suffering from the world there wouldn't be a lot of those things. However I didn't notice Life on there so would you have let it go if I posted suffering and life? And I'm not adding any new angles to what I posted before because I meant then what I'm saying now.

Aazealh said:
If evil didn't exist then people wouldn't know what evil was. Is that all you wanted to say? Because it's both pretty obvious and besides the point. Unfortunate things happen, that's how life is. People live, people die. And people harbor feelings that aren't always noble. It's the nature of man. Those feelings can't cease to exist outside of the wildest, least likely speculation ever.

Yeah just as obvious as my attempt to point it out, but apparently you couldn't see that. Secondly my true point is that if man can look for a reason for everything that is bad that leads to the creation of the Idea of Evil why can't the same principle occur for all the good things that happen in their lives which would lead to an Idea of Good. Seriously good stuff does happen, people do say things like "I must have had a guardian angel watching out for me" as a way to explain miraculous or fortunate events. Einherjar even tried to counter this point by asking if Miracles truly do happen in Berserk. God I wouldn't have to reiterate so much to you if you'd understand what I'm saying immediately instead of immediately trying to negate everything, Jesus Christ. So can you honestly say that's an unreasonable speculation? I said too that someone or something had to create the other aspects of existence, unless they just popped out of nowhere, but in a series involving causality it would seem to be pretty lazy but again I'm only speculating, and I said its really up to Miura if he wants to take the story of the Berserk Universe that in depth.

Aazealh said:
And what you said is wrong. Nothing's purported here, the Idea of Evil is the only God we know of in Berserk and that's that. Yet it doesn't imply all of what you were meaning it to.

Look up the definition of purported, it means accepted as truth on inconclusive grounds, hence "the only God we know of" Again besides the Idea saying that it is the Ideal God of this world, where does it say its the God of all existence or who else confirms it to be the only God? So I'm not allowed to speculate based off this lack of evidence to disprove my theories? Everyone else said that what I said is not proven yet but could be true although we just don't have enough information to make a definitive judgement.

And I agree whole heartedly, but saying I'm wrong this I'm wrong that and trying to invalidate what I said is only speculation is just plain asinine.

Aazealh said:
I don't think it's doubtful and I see no reason for anyone to think it would be the case.

Oh yeah the theory of evolution fits perfectly in a fantasy setting :schierke:. Too bad you apply this way of thinking to everything, if you don't believe it's possible then it isn't possible in your eyes.

Aazealh said:
Indeed, we don't know about it. We know it has nothing to do with the Idea of Evil though, who's in turn the only God we know of in Berserk, and who seems to be overseeing mankind's destiny without opposition.

Who ever/whatever led to the creation of the Berserk universe and its levels of existence may have created the Ocean of feelings, which was in turn the Idea was born of that ocean, its a trickle down effect. Again what is wrong with this speculation other than the fact that as of now nothing proves or disproves it.


Aazealh said:
Hahaha, do you think you're arguing against me or something? I don't have to "get out" of anything, I'm just explaining you things as they are to help you understand them better. The answer to your question is that we don't know how the world came to be. And in the end, it's not very important to the story at this point. Also, just to be sure, you meant "pray tell", right?

I was saying that in jest as kinda like " Oh you can't get out of this point so easily" But now you can call this what you want I really don't care. And yes I meant pray tell, how many points will you deduct off my paper for that?

Aazealh said:
You said that if there's a heaven it would have to have been created by someone else, based on your misconceptions about the Idea of Evil's nature. I don't think I was wrong to say your logic was flawed. And if you want to know more about episode 83 or what can be understood from it, you could go and read older threads on the subject or even ask direct questions in a new thread. Don't hesitate.

And you were basing this off your clear misconceptions of what I was saying, so please feel free to ask "what do you mean?" before immediately assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you didn't understand my wording.

Aazealh said:
Your know, it's Ok not to get some parts of the more obscure cosmological aspects of Berserk. We're not in a contest here and you don't have to "defend" yourself because there are no attacks. Some things you said were wrong and it's no big deal. Now you know better. Struggling to find an angle at which the misconceptions might perhaps not be 100% sure wrong is IMHO just a waste of time and efforts in bad faith that yields no results in the end. Just take it easy and accept the knowledge the elders are blessing you with, then your own reflexions will take you to the right answers. :carcus:

Are you honestly going to reference my age from now on? As far as I know your only ten years older than me because your age isn't posted (if you are much older than excuse my ignorance), and you don't know me, as far as you know I could be some weirdo who posts age 18 and is really 40 :ganishka: (I'm not one of those weirdos). And I'll just say that I know you can have a comeback like, "I can tell you're only 18" but that still wouldn't be true.

Aazealh said:
Oh come on, what are those crappy sources? Please, generalizations aren't good when precision is needed. If you want solid arguments then you should only base yourself on the manga. :miura:

I used discretion before I used it, and again I don't have 83 readily available, and please explain how me not listing every freaking thing that the Idea exists to provide reason for hurts my argument?


Aazealh said:
No, it goes beyond that, to the fact that people couldn't understand why things were happening. Imagine folks in the real world 2000 years ago. A thunderstorm? God must be angry. Plague strikes a town? God must be angry. Why does fruit goes here and not there? Must be the will of God. The point is that people didn't know how the world worked. But do people tend to question their good fortune when it happens? Do people wonder why they're happy? Nope, but they sure wonder why bad luck has to fall on them and not on their neighbors.

I understand that, I even tried to connect Berserk in much the same way that the ancient Greeks thought that Gods and monsters were the explanation for everything that occured in their lives. Secondly what you're saying is what you're saying about people not questioning the good isn't really true, a family survives one of those horrible storms so thanks God, a kid survives plague the family thanks God, a family survives famine thanks God, again even in current times people even sky point on trivial things like hitting a homerun in MLB to thank God, they thank God when they accept awards, people thank God for a lot which is the point that you're ignoring. So in another reiteration how am I speculating incorrectly by believing that positive things couldn't have caused positive feelings that would create an idea of Good.

Aazealh said:
You said: "since we agree that the Vortex of Souls is an evil thing, and since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls".

It's the contrary because the Idea of Evil was born from the ocean of feelings that it floats in, and not the other way around. And the Vortex of Souls comes from there.

Yeah but what says that the Ocean didn't exist alone prior to the vortex? Nothing does.

Aazealh said:
Control destiny? There are many, many definitions to what a god can be. If you can't envision other things then you probably should go read material on the subject. And we're not talking about simply creating things here but being the grand creator of all things, the archetypical creator of the world.

And by controlling destiny could it not be creating things through its manipulation of destiny? You know possibilities and things that would not have existed if not for it's manipulation? And I'm saying that the Idea isn't that archetypical creator yet someone/somethings creations are all around the Berserk universe.

Aazealh said:
Yes, it gave some chosen humans powers, and? Did I say otherwise? By "Creator" it's understood people mean a God that created the whole universe and exists outside of it. It's not just about creating anything. My, do really I have to explain things like this?

Did I say that you did? That comment was addressed to einherjar, I think by that point you had stopped reading. Secondly, you choose to explain what you want to, when really its all your choice. Thirdly I said to EINHERJAR that the Idea created the God Hand whether it manipulated causality to do so or somehow blew life directly into them, and I said that the Idea isn't this archetypical God, I'm just speculating that its possible for one to exist since we can point directly to things that the Idea DIDN'T create, even though it claims to be God and not one of multiple gods.

Aazealh said:
The ocean of feelings around the Idea of Evil comes from humans. And since the Idea of Evil was born from it, it couldn't have created it.

Again the ocean of feelings may have preceded the Vortex, we don't know for sure.


Aazealh said:
I don't see why it wouldn't be likely. It's certainly not less likely than a supreme being we've never heard of having created everything.

For someone who tells me I repeat myself over and over again you sure are doing the same thing. As I responded above it just wouldn't fit in a fantasy setting so thus it really isn't as likely. Though I guess in fairness I can't rule it out, though I doubt we'll start hearing about amoebas and paramecium in Berserk.


Aazealh said:
You're allowed to speculate, don't start with this whiny bullshit. This thread was derailed and your "inferences" go against what's in the manga, so don't be surprised to be told you're wrong. Maybe you'd realize it if you actually read the source material and paid attention to what people were telling you.

Apparently not, everything I seem to post in Speculation Nation seems to be flawed in your eyes, whereas after I explained my ideas to others they drew the same conclusion that I did and that was that it's inconclusive but not a pile of bullshit either, but the king of negation deems it otherwise.


Aazealh said:
First you have to define what you call "layers". We know that the astral world is composed of several layers. However, the world itself is comprised of 3 distinct aspects: the corporeal, the astral and the ideal. And those 3 aspects make a whole. One world. The ideal affects the corporeal. The Idea of Evil influences events that occur in a different part of the world. It's not limited to a specific one. Don't you see? What you're saying makes it look like you don't understand how the world of Berserk works.

I understand that, but that doesn't explain how the worlds came to be, just because the Idea of Evil can influence all levels doesn't mean it created them. Whether you like it or not in Christianity the Devil didn't create the Earth but it can manipulate it as the God of this system of things but it isn't THE God.

Aazealh said:
You were talking of the Idea of Evil's goals earlier. Well nowadays the different aspects of the world are merging into one in Berserk. Who do you think made this happen?

Again the same idea as above.


Aazealh said:
You tell me you're not stuck on Abrahamic concepts and yet you keep spouting lines straight out of the Bible. Anyway, yes indeed I could tell you so and you'd have nothing to say about it. This is all just fruitless speculation and it holds very little interest overall, no matter how you look at it. You can argue all you want about it because it's so distanced from the story, so ungrounded that it can't be proven or disproven in any way. We don't know what created the world and we can't guess it. That's the final word on the matter.

So what? Maybe Miura used elements of eastern and western religions. Midland is very much like medieval Europe and what religion was prominent in medieval Europe, hmmm? He also uses elements such as trolls which are clearly from Norse folklore, and witches that originated in early modern Europe as well as I think the Dark Ages or wait am I assuming too much?

Aazealh said:
Big surprise there. And seeing how different the two concepts are from each other it really makes me wonder about the depth of your misunderstanding. You probably should abandon all such parallels and think about the whole thing in a fresh way. I'm afraid that otherwise you'll never understand how things are.

Again the same thing about Griffith anti-christ comparison all that stuff up above, the things that you haven't proven to not be similar enough to speculate, again read my post. Secondly, then your fear is misplaced.


Aazealh said:
It's not called that.

Well my bad, I based that off of this: http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Idea_of_Evil, still it doesn't change the fact that the Idea claims to be the God of the Berserk world. I could argue about how it is the God that humans feelings desired to reason for all that stuff we mentioned earlier so in effect it is basically the ideal God of this world but it doesn't say it in the manga as far as I know so I'll concead that.

Aazealh said:
Two occurrences of the word "God", I smell a strong similarity there! On a side note, you truncated that line (it's "system of things"), but that doesn't really matter.

Yeah that's all I was connecting there :schierke:. Then you don't even address my real connection of how the Devil is said to be God of this system of things and manipulates the people much in the same way of how Idea manipulates causality in order to manipulate the people on earth, both manipulating for evil.

Aazealh said:
What faith? How is this relevant?

Obviously Christianity and Judaism and I stated how I'm comparing.

Aazealh said:
Your comparison is flawed. And the Idea of Evil provides reasons for things that transcend human knowledge, not just "suffering". It controls the destiny of men. And it is a part of each human, just as each human's dark feelings are a part of itself. Humans birthed it. Really, that comparison is ridiculous on so many levels it's overwhelming. You're doing no better than comparing Berserk to Spawn here.

And those things are almost all negative, based off the negative feelings that man has, so almost all it brings to mankind is misery and suffering when you break it down, its the damn Idea of Evil for Christ's sakes.

Do a better job proving that it is flawed and I'll believe you.

Aazealh said:
Not really "just as" it does, no.'

No? Demons don't do the work of the devil causing misery of mankind much in the way that the apostles and God Hand serve the Idea and cause misery for mankind?

Aazealh said:
See, you don't understand what you're talking about, that's the problem. That hierarchy of good and bad alignments only exists in your mind. Elves, the equivalent of apostles? The 4 elemental kings of the world, opposite of the God Hand? You're forcing a comparison on things that can't be compared.

We don't know the alignment of the Elemental Kings but I assumed that they're likely good not neutral so I may end up being wrong for assuming so, however if they are in fact on the side of Good and not merely neutral they would be under any Polar opposite of the Idea of Evil in any hierarchy but certainly above the elves which would leave , if the world of Berserk doesn't have any powers of Good that could oppose the Idea and his God hand (unless Hanafubuku Oh is even more powerful then what I thought) he may as well jump off a cliff no because its a pointless battle, but Miura said that there'll be a positive ending so we'll see. I'll that it was erroneous to start drawing up hierarchies but that doesn't mean one won't be revealed.

Aazealh said:
I don't think it's a likely possibility, and I'm aware that absolutely nothing in the manga hints at it. That's all.

And I'm arguing that there is a possibility and that there is just such a lack of any real evidence to say that it isn't possible that an Idea of Good can't form the same way that an Idea of Evil did but from the lighter side of that ocean of feelings, otherwise why even distinguish that there is a darker side if it is all dark?

Aazealh said:
Says who? In my experience, people don't tend to ponder their luck too much compared to how they resent and question their bad luck. That being said, from what it says the Idea of Evil provides reasons for all of humanity, and controls the destiny of every human. It doesn't limit itself to bad things.

That's the problem you assume your experience is the only one. Again just read the examples that I thought of from the top of my head, hell their are people that thank God for winning the lottery and honestly believe he played a part in it.

Aazealh said:
Maybe you should begin by reading the source material instead of second hand wiki articles then, because I don't think anything helpful was found in this thread so far.

I think you meant that I should read it more closely, obviously I've read it I wouldn't be on this board if I hadn't (I already know how you'll respond to that). Problem is you seem to think that if anyone has a view that opposes yours then it is wrong because you think you can never be wrong when it comes to Berserk.

Aazealh said:
Since I'm so nice I'm going to move the posts to a new thread, not to the Idea of Evil directly.

Thank you, it was the gist of what I asked in the first place I just assumed that you'd place it there.

Aazealh said:
It's not really like that. By all means, the Idea of Evil is more the embodiment of Evil itself than anything else. It is one with the evil in every human heart. That's why it's not just a comic book supervillain king of evil but the Idea (as in a Platonic Idea) of it. That's why it's a God.

I know, which is what I've been getting at, so what makes you think that there's no platonic idea for Good things in Berserk? Why can't good human feelings exist with the bad? Since humans aren't all good or bad its just that the Idea of Evil was born of the negative feelings instead of the positive, just because nothing says yet that there is an Idea of Good it doesn't mean its ruled out, when I mentioned this on these boards I believe you said that those theories of an idea of Good are generally thought to be crap (you or Walter, I'm not sure though you shared the sentiment), or atleast good luck trying to argue it and its that bias against such an idea that I call into question when at the worse all you can is that nothing proves it, you really can't even say its not likely. If you completely disagree with everything else I said and believe them to be invalid, then so be it, this is all I really want you and anyone else to take away from this. The stuff I said about Christianity are merely similarities that I see within Berserk, and really I'm not arguing intent from Miura, I'm arguing that those similarities do indeed exist I even basically asked if there really are any 100% unique ideas out there that don't borrow or share even slight similarities to other works. If I end up being wrong I'll admit, I have no problem with doing that but you don't seem to be able to acknowledge that I'm speculating something that's valid enough to even be speculated while others have.

Aazealh said:
Why wouldn't we argue that? He transformed them into more than humans, and told them to do as they wanted. We're not aware of any prolonged contact between the Idea of Evil and the God Hand, nor of precise instructions or anything. We suppose that they carry out his will through their own will, but then again so does practically every human being if we go that way. They are all manipulated to some extent when it fits it. That's how it was able to do everything it's done.

I meant let's not argue the fact that the God Hand do indeed carry out his will, whether it is based off coincidence because the Idea shapes causality which could in turn shape their will based of situation or not is not the point I was making here, point is that they do in fact carry out his will, I never claimed to know how or what the exact relation is.

Aazealh said:
Yet so far there hasn't been any duality in that regard. Elves are non-human beings that are carefree and mischiveous despite being naturally good-natured, and magic users can be good willed or not (Daiba?), but in the end they're humans like the rest of them. There are also good hearted humans that aren't magic users.

I'm speculating that the duality would come from Hanafubuku Oh being aligned on the side of good/atleast opposing the God Hand because he must be connected to SK somehow if SK felt like that he could trust him to help out Guts and Casca. Since he's the king of the elves of the elves of Elfhelm, so atleast that would mean that atleast one nation of elves is against the God Hand if it's king would help someone aligned with SK. Now whether or not all kingdom of elves feel this way is unclear, but I think that their general alignment would be the same.


Aazealh said:
Look at it this way: the Idea of Evil, the God Hand and the apostles are all human-based. What is there opposing them among mankind? Nothing that we know of.

Guts and his band anyone? Flora was indeed human too, and SK probably at one point was human as well.


Aazealh said:
Be careful though, einherjar made a good point. While the souls of dead people join the Vortex of Souls according to their Karma, the feelings of living people themselves are all linked to the Idea of Evil regardless of whether the person should be considered good overall or not. And those feelings aren't necessarily "evil" either, they're just on the darker scale of things (from pain to fear to despair). It's all tricky notions really, not as easy as you make them out to be.

I think I cleared this up earlier, but if humans aren't all evil they should be 100% evil, there might be a yin-yang relationship within Berserk that we just don't know for sure that could link them in my speculation to both the Idea of Evil and to an Idea of Good (which is what I'm speculating) and maybe the feelings that they hold within if too far off to one side would decide where there soul goes whether into the vortex or somewhere else, but again I'm willing to say that I may be jumping the gun but it doesn't make the theory in and of itself wrong, but I don't think its all baseless.

Aazealh said:
No she doesn't. That's Flora talking, and I gave the correct reference on the first page of this thread.

Yes and I realized my error and corrected it a long time ago. Still doesn't change my point.

Aazealh said:
This doesn't disprove or even contradict what einherjar was saying though.

He said that things don't need a reason to for them to be, however if Berserk is based off causality then don't all things within it need a reason for them to be? If there are multiple levels of existence in Berserk then there should be a story or explanation to how they came to exist, why not just one level of existence? Which is why I feel something must have created them, and I just believe its probably some True God that is over all, but again it might not be, hell maybe it was an event (though again a big bang my be a little weird for something that is fantasy) but I choose to believe a God because we know atleast one god is pulling the strings and that would be the Idea.


Aazealh said:
They're monsters, what a unique similarity.

All you're doing here is trying to downplay my point, I've already said the parallels from apostles to the demons that serve the devil then fine, but even the word apostles is a term that is strongly connected to both Judaism and Christianity and in some ways they it seems that Miura did intend for that to be some allusion to the those religions

Aazealh said:
Yeah so basically it's not a valid example.

This isn't very important, but when supernatural events are common, they can't really be considered miracles, even if they're a formidable display of power.
[/quote]

That doesn't change how people ignorant of magic perceive them, and if they are positive supernatural events they may just be perceived as miracles or atleast cause positive feelings that could lead to an Idea of Good.

Aazealh said:
If similarities include people fighting with swords then yes, it sure does share similarities. But really, that doesn't lend your speculation any weight.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Berserk doesn't fit within the genre of fantasy? Magic and witches, trolls, monsters, elves, Berserker Armor, the list goes on and on. Though I'm not surprised that you would argue this.

Aazealh said:
Anyway, as a summary of this (tedious) scrutiny, I think that you simply do not look at the whole picture from the right angle. Maybe it'd be easier to explain if we talked about it in the chatroom?

It would be nothing but a rehash of everything we each have already said and I already admitted that there is no way to prove what I'm saying, I just want my opinion to be both respected and seen as a valid speculation, I'm not trying to convert you to it just give me some damn credit. I was about to respond to that pm that you sent earlier but felt that it was a waste of time, because it seemed that I offered the peace pipe and you took a puff only to blow the smoke in my face.

Aazealh said:
But you see, debate isn't an end in itself. Debate has to end after a while, when either things have been answered or it's been established that the answers can't be found. When certain facts are unknown and people come saying they must be one way or another, it has to be refuted in order to avoid confusion. And additionally, criticism of a theory can only reinforce it if it proves to be able to stand under scrutiny.

Only if those who criticise the theory are willing to admit that the theory is withstanding their scrutiny if not then it would continue until we are given answers or until one side says that it has had enough...
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
Uhhh yeah? Ok I guess.

Yes because if she is looking the rape, made from a God Hand, and all the several feelings that derive from. She at last state something, no?

Aazealh said:
When she says "this is human, this is evil" she's not making a general statement but commenting on the act that's taking place in front of her.

Then you are sure that she is saying that just the rape and all feeling that derive from are "human and evil".
I have considered even that on my volume 13(italian one) slan says "that is the men, that is the evil" that is a general statement.
Now I can assume that "human" is a more accurate translation, but even if she says human as an adjective to comment the rape, I think that is possible to deduct that "all humans" have those feelings, that she sums in the evil.
That's my point of view, and if you will say that I think wrong, I accept your thought, but my thought still remains. Because my original statement was that Slan, clustered all the human feelings under evil.

Aazealh said:
But think about what you're saying. You're contradicting yourself. If the ocean of feelings was there before the Idea of Evil, then humans started to feel before it was born. We can know that through simple deduction.

Nope I'm not in contradiction, because I reject the hypothesis I have mentioned, deducted from a previous quote:(going on this way the risk to lose the main focus is quite high, but however)

From Guts' intestines

since we know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Abyss then that would imply that it created the Vortex of Souls, so if man was alive prior to the Idea (in order for it to exist in the first place) and presumably died/faced hardships where did those souls of those pre-idea humans go to?

So regardless the fact the Idea, once born could have started "to pump" souls that maybe before were just wandering in astral world, the doubt was that with the former man alive there was no God(since it wasn't still born).
So I said that maybe Idea was born when the men start to feel, because the feelings and the soul of a monkey is not like the human one.
Then I know that it's logical that as you say that human started to feel before it was born, maybe the difference that made you assume that I'm in contradiction could be the fact that I didn't meant tha Idea was born in the precise moment that men started to feel but of course a bit later.

Aazealh said:
We don't know when it was born. That's simple enough. :idea:

But we can think on it, even if we won't find the answer.


Aazealh said:
But you see, debate isn't an end in itself. Debate has to end after a while, when either things have been answered or it's been established that the answers can't be found. When certain facts are unknown and people come saying they must be one way or another, it has to be refuted in order to avoid confusion. And additionally, criticism of a theory can only reinforce it if it proves to be able to stand under scrutiny.

I can understant that there's the risk to give confused concepts to a reader, but I think that, if it is well underlined that is just personal thought that risk is minor.
So sometimes I think it could be good take care of a doubt expressed and focusing more on them, instead of give few statement(that of course I know) that doesn't help me that much.
If a reply doesn't satisfy me I cannot forget about my doubts.
But I respect the way of repling of everyone, this isn't a complain, but my point of view.

Aazealh said:
Yeah but in the context of the thread where people are talking about "absolute good" and such it can be confusing. That's what Ramen wanted to tell you. No big deal.

Yes, but consider what I just said before about it.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Because Vargas ended up in the Vortex of Souls and he wasn't evil but was forced to be the Count's doctor by the Count, so if he wasn't evil by deed then the evil must of been from his feelings of revenge. Sorry if it wasn't immediately apparent.

We don't know of everything Vargas did or of how bitter he was. It's tricky to be objective because he was depicted as a sympathetic character. In any case, my point still stands that one doesn't need to be purely made of good feelings to have a good karma.

Guts' intestines said:
I said the IDEAL WORLD, in which all the individualities of all beings. Now do you see?

I don't think you understand what Ideal means in this context. There are no individualities there. Rather, it's the domain of humanity's collective consciousness. A place where all become one, to quote Griffith.

Guts' intestines said:
I quoted the Berserk encyclopedia that is on this very site the wording on there was intentionality, my intention was to prevent someone from misinterpreting me because I copied it nearly verbatim, maybe I should have applied quotations.

Be careful when you rely on the Encyclopedia, not all of it is up-to-date.

Guts' intestines said:
And if I'm doing that you certainly are, all you have to do is look above to see that. By Alpha (hopefully the final time that I have to clarify this) I mean the head of those that are evil. You say he's not a leader of chimpanzees yet there is a clear hierarchy within those of evil alignment: apostles<God Hand<Idea, it really isn't that hard to understand, unless of course you disagree with this.

There's nothing to clarify other that the fact you're using incorrect terminology. And this idea of having an evil alignment opposite a good alignment is a simplification of the situation as we currently understand it, just as saying the Idea of Evil is simply the leader of the bad guys is a simplification of what it does and what it is according to what we know of it. This is what you should understand.

Guts' intestines said:
Definition of pure: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pure #7, seriously have ever heard of someone of pure heart? This isn't something that is so foreign, its even cliched. All you stated was another definition of the same word.

So you don't understand what I meant? You don't see how what you said could easily lead to confusion in the context of the story?

Guts' intestines said:
I don't think that's obvious, I'm not the first to draw the connections between this and parts of Christianity, how can you read the connections that I noted and disagree? Does Griffith not resemble the Anti-Christ? Do the God Hand not carry out the will of the idea comparable to the way angels in the Bible do? Hell Ubik even goes around suggesting what people should do in a Gabriel-esque way.

I think those connections are either very weak and superficial or inexistent. I don't see apostles carrying the will of God like angels do in the Bible, and I don't think Ubik resembles archangel Gabriel.

Guts' intestines said:
The Idea calls himself the Ideal God of this world

No it doesn't. I already told you so.

Guts' intestines said:
and the Devil is said to be the GOD of this system of things, those are a lot of similarities

The word "god" is present in both sentences, that's the only similarity I can see.

Guts' intestines said:
and all I'm doing is speculating, can you not even grant me the fact that my speculations aren't baseless?

I don't think there's a very good basis for that comparison with the Bible. They greatly differ from one another in many ways.

Guts' intestines said:
What? All I said that we know for sure are these: "OK, so we know that the Vortex of Souls is the place where both sacrifices and people with any bad karma end up. We also know that the Idea of Evil is the God of the Berserk universe (at least from his own words) and he dwells within the vortex of souls/abyss, we know too that the Idea of Evil manipulates causality in order to further his own goals, (which seem mostly to be the furtherance of evil, which by design would further the Idea's existence)" So where do you see within there something that I'm saying that we know for sure that isn't the case?

I was responding to your previous post, in which you said: "And since we know that the Idea manipulates the world in order to maintain his own existence". I think you're getting lost in the mass of quotes.

Guts' intestines said:
Everything that I said beyond those things above I said were speculations, we are in Speculation Nation.

Even in Speculation Nation when someone says "we know this" it means he's not speculating. I think I'm going to change the section's name because I'm tired of hearing this.

Guts' intestines said:
And What I mention is considering the situation with Vargas, it doesn't really conflict with the Karma aspects of Berserk, however it does go with the idea of Christianity that says everyone is born sinners based off the original sin.

No, it doesn't. Not at all. The original sin? What the hell. If you look at Guts' speech to Theresia in volume 3, it seems that on the contrary, people who have lived their life innocently have more chances to avoid "hell". Really, I wish you weren't stuck on that comparison with Christianity.

Guts' intestines said:
It is the ultimate effect of people questioning why bad things happen, that was why it was born right?

To explain why things happen. Not necessarily bad ones. Is death even bad? It's the inescapable consequence of living.

Guts' intestines said:
Even more so it seems to only seek to continue to maintain those bad things on earth

But do these things need to be maintained? Death, pain, sadness and ignorance can never completely disappear. What the Idea of Evil has been doing through its agents is different and more sinister. Look at what's happening in the story.

Guts' intestines said:
so based off that I'm speculating that without evil how can there be an Idea of Evil? You're saying that darkness is a part of all mankind and will be so eternally, but there is nothing that says some great Salvation of man is impossible or that their isn't another God other than the Idea of Evil, so again I'm just speculating but what I'm saying is very possible.

No, you're speculating without a basis and what you're saying is very unlikely. There is nothing that say Void isn't a robot, but that doesn't make it very possible.

Guts' intestines said:
But if you're admitting to it being sinister then what is your point? It can be the overseer of mankind and still be an evil tyrant, and again you admit that it is evil so I'm pretty sure that would want itself to continue to exist.

I'm not admitting anything, I'm telling you things I was telling people years before you registered on this website. That it wants itself to continue to exist is irrelevant, because that's not its goal. That's not why it exists, and that's not what it's doing. It's changing the world little by little and I bet you whatever you want that its ambitions go far beyond "maintaining its existence".

Guts' intestines said:
Explained above but basically the idea says it exists as the thing that provides reasoning for the bad things that happen to man

It says that it provides reasons for men's destiny.

Guts' intestines said:
Is it necessary for me to post all of that when all of those things are related to or cause suffering?

Is life necessarily related to suffering? Is destiny? Can they be summarized as that one word? You are desperately attempting to limit the scope of the Idea of Evil's influence only so you don't back down on an unfortunate choice of words.

Guts' intestines said:
However I didn't notice Life on there so would you have let it go if I posted suffering and life? And I'm not adding any new angles to what I posted before because I meant then what I'm saying now.

Suffering and life and destiny and death... I just don't think the "Idea of Evil was being redundant" here, and I think it's important to see the general picture. It's not just the words you used that were the problem here but what you were trying to prove by using them.

Guts' intestines said:
Yeah just as obvious as my attempt to point it out, but apparently you couldn't see that.

It doesn't need to be pointed out, and it's besides the point like I said.

Guts' intestines said:
Secondly my true point is that if man can look for a reason for everything that is bad that leads to the creation of the Idea of Evil why can't the same principle occur for all the good things that happen in their lives which would lead to an Idea of Good.

Because as you just realized 2 quotes ago, the Idea of Evil doesn't merely provide reasons for bad thing.

Guts' intestines said:
Seriously good stuff does happen, people do say things like "I must have had a guardian angel watching out for me" as a way to explain miraculous or fortunate events.

But they don't yearn for reasons at the core of their being. ;)

Guts' intestines said:
Einherjar even tried to counter this point by asking if Miracles truly do happen in Berserk. God I wouldn't have to reiterate so much to you if you'd understand what I'm saying immediately instead of immediately trying to negate everything, Jesus Christ.

You can reiterate a wrong assertion but it'll still be wrong.

Guts' intestines said:
So can you honestly say that's an unreasonable speculation?

I can say I find it unlikely, yes. And I can say that there's nothing in the story that hints at this possibility.

Guts' intestines said:
I said too that someone or something had to create the other levels of existence, unless they just popped out of nowhere, but in a series involving causality it would seem to be pretty lazy but again I'm only speculating

I don't see how your idea would be less lazy. And indeed, you said someone "had" to, when it's not necessarily the case.

Guts' intestines said:
Look up the definition of purported, it means accepted as truth on inconclusive grounds, hence "the only God we know of"

Because we don't know of other gods doesn't mean it isn't sure whether it's a god or not. Sorry.

Guts' intestines said:
Again besides the Idea saying that it is the Ideal God of this world

It doesn't say so.

Guts' intestines said:
where does it say its the God of all existence or who else confirms it to be the only God?

It doesn't say it's the God of all existence or the only God. It's a human God and it was created by humans, so clearly we can already tell that it's limited in what it does. However it was presented to us in the story in a manner that makes it rather difficult to introduce another deity without creating gaping plot holes.

Guts' intestines said:
So I'm not allowed to speculate based off this lack of evidence to disprove my theories? Everyone else said that what I said is not proven yet but could be true although we just don't have enough information to make a definitive judgement.

Depends on what you said. You've said many different things in this thread. Some were definitely wrong, some were slightly erroneous, some were very contestable, some were correct and some were unproven speculation (that I don't find likely).

Guts' intestines said:
And I agree whole heartedly, but saying I'm wrong this I'm wrong that and trying to invalidate what I said is only speculation is just plain asinine.

What's asinine is that you say "Hypothesis Y is correct so because of fact X". Someone points out that fact X is either wrong, not a fact or doesn't prove Hypothesis Y, and instead of taking it into account and maybe reconsidering your idea, you try to wiggle around so that the original statement can be seen as non-impossible.

Guts' intestines said:
Oh yeah the theory of evolution fits perfectly in a fantasy setting :schierke:

Use your imagination a little.

Guts' intestines said:
Who ever/whatever led to the creation of the Berserk universe and it's levels of existence may have created the Ocean of feelings, which was in turn the Idea was born of that ocean, its a trickle down effect.

That ocean of feelings comes from humanity's collective consciousness.

Guts' intestines said:
I was saying that in jest as kinda like " Oh you can't get out of this point so easily" But now you can call this what you want I really don't care. And yes I meant pray tell, how many points will you deduct off my paper for that?

Just asking because I had to think for a minute about what you meant. Don't be so defensive.

Guts' intestines said:
And you were basing this off your clear misconceptions of what I was saying, so please feel free to ask "what do you mean?" before immediately assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about just because you didn't understand my wording.

I understood your wording perfectly. If you meant something else then you simply worded your thoughts wrong and you can only blame yourself for it.

Guts' intestines said:
Are you honestly going to reference my age from now on? As far as I know your only ten years older than me because your age isn't posted (if you are much older than excuse my ignorance), and you don't know me, as far as you know I could be some weirdo who posts age 18 and is really 40 :ganishka: (I'm not one of those weirdos). And I'll just say that I know you can have a comeback like, "I can tell you're only 18" but that still wouldn't be true.

I'm just trying to show you there's a better way for you to manage situations like this. Your age is to your advantage here, because I am more understanding.

Guts' intestines said:
I used discretion before I used it, and again I don't have 83 readily available, and please explain how me not listing every freaking thing that the Idea exists to provide reason for hurts my argument?

Already addressed earlier. As for episode 83, it's always available here: http://www.skullknight.net/idea/

Anyway, if you don't have the means to check reliable sources, it's better to wait until you can before replying. That's an elementary rule really. It's not a race and forum posts won't go away if you wait before responding.

Guts' intestines said:
what you're saying is what you're saying about people not questioning the good isn't really true, a family survives one of those horrible storms so thanks God, a kid survives plague the family thanks God, a family survives famine thanks God, again even in current times people even sky point on trivial things like hitting a homerun in MLB to thank God, they thank God when they accept awards, people thank God for a lot which is the point that you're ignoring.

In the examples you give people don't question their fate. I'm not saying it can't possibly happen anyway, just that it's possible that the drive to do it wouldn't be as strong as the drive to find reasons for bad events.

Guts' intestines said:
Yeah but what says that the Ocean didn't exist alone prior to the vortex? Nothing does.

But that wouldn't prove your point... The evil in the Vortex that you were talking of is in that ocean.

Guts' intestines said:
And by controlling destiny could it not be creating things through its manipulation of destiny?

But that's not the point. The Idea of Evil didn't create the world, do you understand?

Guts' intestines said:
Did I say that you did? That comment was addressed to einherjar

I'm the one who told you the Idea of Evil wasn't the creator of the world, after you'd said otherwise, so it doesn't really matter who your comment was addressed to.

Guts' intestines said:
I said that the Idea isn't this archetypical God, I'm just speculating that its possible for one to exist since we can point directly to things that the Idea DIDN'T create, even though it claims to be God and not one of multiple gods.

Is that all you wanted to say? Because you'd have fared better just leaving it at that, without trying to explain things you didn't understand.

Guts' intestines said:
Again the ocean of feelings may have preceded the Vortex, we don't know for sure.

Yes, but that's besides the point. I'm not sure you understand what the Vortex of Souls is.

Guts' intestines said:
For someone who tells me I repeat myself over and over again you sure are doing the same thing.

That's the law of causality.

Guts' intestines said:
Apparently not, everything I seem to post in Speculation Nation seems to be flawed in your eyes

Most of it is.

Guts' intestines said:
whereas after I explained my ideas to others they drew the same conclusion that I did

Yes, yes of course. Many mysterious people agree! It's unfortunately that 10 people can be wrong and one person right. Number proves nothing.

Guts' intestines said:
I understand that, but that doesn't explain how the levels came to be, just because the Idea of Evil can influence all levels doesn't mean it created them.

Ah, perfect, now you're telling me the very things I first corrected you about!

Guts' intestines said:
Whether you like it or not in Christianity the Devil didn't create the Earth

So einherjar told you.

Guts' intestines said:
Again the same idea as above.

That's not an answer. See what I was responding to.

Guts' intestines said:
So what? Maybe Miura used elements of eastern and western religions.

Yes, certainly. I don't see how that's answering what I said though.

Guts' intestines said:
Again the same thing about Griffith anti-christ comparison all that stuff up above, the things that you haven't proven to not be similar enough to speculate, again read my post. Secondly, then your fear is misplaced.

You sure use the word "secondly" a lot for someone who never says "firstly". Anyway, you're a funny guy. You think there's anything new in what you're saying? People (me included) didn't wait for you to compare Griffith to an Antichrist figure (though, as an actual emissary from God, wouldn't he be simply Christic?), but it doesn't further your point about the nature of the Idea of Evil or of the world.

Guts' intestines said:
Well my bad, I based that off of this: http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Idea_of_Evil, still it doesn't change the fact that the Idea claims to be the God of the Berserk world. I could argue about how it is the God that humans feelings desired to reason for all that stuff we mentioned earlier so in effect it is basically the ideal God of this world but it doesn't say it in the manga as far as I know so I'll concead that.

Didn't I tell you to be careful about your sources? And if you argued like you're saying you wouldn't go very far.

Guts' intestines said:
Yeah that's all I was connecting there :schierke:. Then you don't even address my real connection of how the Devil is said to be God of this system of things and manipulates the people much in the same way of how Idea manipulates causality in order to manipulate the people on earth, both manipulating for evil.

That's all there is to connect. There are some really fundamental differences in how both cases are handled. For example the Devil tempts people and corrupts the unfaithful, while the Idea of Evil, born from men, is a part of them as they are a part of it. Men are seen as sharing a collective consciousness that transcends individuals.

Guts' intestines said:
And those things are almost all negative, based off the negative feelings that man has, so almost all it brings to mankind is misery and suffering when you break it down, its the damn Idea of Evil for Christ's sakes.

Already addressed, and your response here doesn't touch the huge differences I listed in passing. I don't see the need to write an essay on it.

Guts' intestines said:
No? Demons don't do the work of the devil causing misery of mankind much in the way that the apostles and God Hand serve the Idea and cause misery for mankind?

No.

Guts' intestines said:
We don't know the alignment of the Elemental Kings but I assumed that they're likely good not neutral so I may end up being wrong for assuming so

What's this talk of alignment? I still wonder where you got the idea that everything has to have an alignment. I already told you, this isn't Dungeon and Dragons, so why are you so desperately pushing those concepts at it?

Guts' intestines said:
Miura said that there'll be a positive ending so we'll see.

He said the ending wouldn't be pessimistic.

Guts' intestines said:
I'll that it was erroneous to start drawing up hierarchies but that doesn't mean one won't be revealed.

Of course, alignments and hierarchies could be revealed that would take the story in a way similar to what you've described (and other people described before you as well). However, so far nothing of the sort was shown.

Guts' intestines said:
And I'm arguing that there is a possibility and that there is just such a lack of any real evidence to say that it isn't possible that an Idea of Good can't form the same way that an Idea of Evil did but from the lighter side of that ocean of feelings, otherwise why even distinguish that there is a darker side if it is all dark?

There is a possibility for everything as long as we don't know of it. But to add some pertinence to an idea we have to try to determine if it is probable or not. In the case of an Idea of Good, besides the fact it'd be cliché and unimaginative, the way things have been presented to us makes it hard for me to see how such a being could be introduced. The good part of things has been extremely subdued in Berserk so far, if not quasi-inexistent. There are only a couple of mentions of a "heaven" when we've seen "hell" at work many times. And beyond that, the Idea of Evil's power over humanity seems absolute. I personally believe that there is some sort of "heaven" we've yet to see, but that it didn't spawn an entity similar to the Idea of Evil.

Guts' intestines said:
That's the problem you assume your experience is the only one. Again just read the examples that I thought of from the top of my head, hell their are people that thank God for winning the lottery and honestly believe he played a part in it.

"Thanking God" isn't what we were talking about though.

Guts' intestines said:
I think you meant that I should read it more closely, obviously I've read it I wouldn't be on this board if I hadn't (I already know how you'll respond to that). Problem is you seem to think that if anyone has a view that opposes yours then it is wrong because you think you can never be wrong when it comes to Berserk.

So please tell me what was "found" in this thread (meaning that no one knew of it before) that was helpful.

Guts' intestines said:
I know, which is what I've been getting at

I don't think comparing it to the Christian Devil was getting at what I said.

Guts' intestines said:
so what makes you think that there's no platonic idea for Good things in Berserk?

A-ha, now comes the interesting talk. At last. Though if you'd read old threads you'd know what I think about it already. ;) Basically, I don't think there can't be an "Idea of Good" in the sense of a Platonic Idea, but I don't believe it has taken on a shape and a personality like the Idea of Evil has. The Idea of Evil is a character in its own right in episode 83, and I don't think there's space left for a similar being opposing it in what this episode shows us. Of course, since episode 83 was removed from the story things may already have greatly changed in that regard. I have always been interested in forming a few theories of what could and couldn't be with only the cannon manga as a base, but never took the time to put it in words.

Guts' intestines said:
Since humans aren't all good or bad its just that the Idea of Evil was born of the negative feelings instead of the positive, just because nothing says yet that there is an Idea of Good it doesn't mean its ruled out, when I mentioned this on these boards I believe you said that those theories of an idea of Good are generally thought to be crap (you or Walter, I'm not sure though you shared the sentiment)

It's Walter that told you so, and for good reason. Not being impossible doesn't mean something is probable, don't forget that. And some things that I mentioned in passing do make it seem unlikely, like it or not. Really, if that's all you wanted to talk about here, I could have pointed you to some of my past posts on the subject. Gain of time for everyone!

Guts' intestines said:
you don't seem to be able to acknowledge that I'm speculating something that's valid enough to even be speculated while others have.

I indeed don't think those comparisons with the Christian Devil are valid, sorry. They seem very superficial to me for the most part, and you ignore many major differences.

Guts' intestines said:
I'm speculating that the duality would come from Hanafubuku Oh being aligned on the side of good/atleast opposing the God Hand because he must be connected to SK somehow if SK felt like that he could trust him to help out Guts and Casca. Since he's the king of the elves of the elves of Elfhelm, so atleast that would mean that atleast one nation of elves is against the God Hand if it's king would help someone aligned with SK. Now whether or not all kingdom of elves feel this way is unclear, but I think that their general alignment would be the same.

And how would elves be opposing the God Hand? I hope you realize you're heavily speculating here anyway. We'll see how it goes when they get there I guess.

Guts' intestines said:
Guts and his band anyone? Flora was indeed human too, and SK probably at one point was human as well.

So you're saying they are endorsed by a being like the Idea of Evil to oppose it? Because Guts and Casca have been sacrificed, and SK or Flora don't seem to be encountering much success in opposing the God Hand. SK's the only one who seems to be making a difference, and so far he's mostly looked like a lone wolf.

Guts' intestines said:
I think I cleared this up earlier, but if humans aren't all evil they should be 100% evil

Depends on what you call evil, but it's not what transpires from Griffith's dialogue with the Idea of Evil in episode 83.

Guts' intestines said:
there might be a yin-yang relationship within Berserk that we just don't know for sure

I think it's probable that a "good" counterpart to the dark side of the ocean of feelings that birthed the Idea of Evil exists. It's hinted at in the manga, though we've got no definite proof of it. How they would interact with each other is unknown though.

Guts' intestines said:
Yes and I realized my error and corrected it a long time ago.

Like, long hours ago. :ganishka:

Guts' intestines said:
He said that things don't need a reason to for them to be, however if Berserk is based off causality then don't all things within it need a reason for them to be?

Maybe, maybe not. I think he was talking more about the fact Miura might not feel the need to explain the world's creation though.

Guts' intestines said:
If there are multiple levels of existence in Berserk then there should be a story or explanation to how they came to exist, why not just one level of existence?

Should there? I don't think that's for us to decide. Maybe they were always there.

Guts' intestines said:
Which is why I feel something must have created them, and I just believe its probably some True God that is over all, but again it might not be, hell maybe it was an event (though again a big bang my be a little weird for something that is fantasy) but I choose to believe a God because we know atleast one god is pulling the strings and that would be the Idea.

That's good for you, but basing myself on what Miura's said on the subject in the past, I don't think it is the case.

Guts' intestines said:
All you're doing here is trying to downplay my point

And for a good reason, don't you think?

Guts' intestines said:
even the word apostles is a term that is strongly connected to both Judaism and Christianity

Yes, so please tell me, how are the apostles in Berserk connected to Jesus' 12 apostles in a way that reinforces their connection to demons serving the Devil?

Guts' intestines said:
That doesn't change how people ignorant of magic perceive them

If it was widespread they wouldn't be ignorant of it.

Guts' intestines said:
Are you seriously trying to tell me that Berserk doesn't fit within the genre of fantasy? Magic and witches, trolls, monsters, elves, Berserker Armor, the list goes on and on. Though I'm not surprised that you would argue this.

Magic, armor, swords and monsters. Yes those are great similarities that prove your point.

Guts' intestines said:
I just want my opinion to be both respected and seen as a valid speculation, I'm not trying to convert you to it just give me some damn credit.

Your opinion isn't a speculation.

Anyway, rest assured that you are being respected as a member of this website. You're part of our community. You're not a stranger here, this is your home. There is no "I", no "you", there is only "us". All are as One under the banner of SK.net. (sometimes I scare myself)

Guts' intestines said:
Only if those who criticise the theory are willing to admit that the theory is withstanding their scrutiny if not then it would continue until we are given answers or until one side says that it has had enough...

Or if those whose arguments don't stand scrutiny admit it. You have already admitted that there is no basis for your idea, just like everyone who's had that same idea before you. That was just the point, really, to make you realize that no elements in the story were backing it up. No one said it wasn't a possibility.



Daijyashin said:
Yes because if she is looking the rape, made from a God Hand, and all the several feelings that derive from. She at last state something, no?

She states something, yes?

Daijyashin said:
I have considered even that on my volume 13(italian one) slan says "that is the men, that is the evil" that is a general statement.
Now I can assume that "human" is a more accurate translation, but even if she says human as an adjective to comment the rape, I think that is possible to deduct that "all humans" have those feelings, that she sums in the evil.
That's my point of view, and if you will say that I think wrong, I accept your thought, but my thought still remains. Because my original statement was that Slan, clustered all the human feelings under evil.

Your Italian volume is indeed not correctly translated. Now, you are free to stick to what you believe, I can't do anything to change that. But Slan is clearly talking about the rape when she mentions all the feelings it draws (from Femto, Casca but also Guts), and I don't see how her conclusion, in the context and with the scene showing the rape, could be taken as a general statement that all human feelings are evil.

Daijyashin said:
So regardless the fact the Idea, once born could have started "to pump" souls that maybe before were just wandering in astral world, the doubt was that with the former man alive there was no God(since it wasn't still born).
So I said that maybe Idea was born when the men start to feel, because the feelings and the soul of a monkey is not like the human one.
Then I know that it's logical that as you say that human started to feel before it was born, maybe the difference that made you assume that I'm in contradiction could be the fact that I didn't meant tha Idea was born in the precise moment that men started to feel but of course a bit later.

Ok, whew, I think I understand what you mean. Basically you're saying the Idea of Evil was born from human feelings.

Daijyashin said:
But we can think on it, even if we won't find the answer.

Of course. It's just going to be random guessing though.

Daijyashin said:
I can understant that there's the risk to give confused concepts to a reader, but I think that, if it is well underlined that is just personal thought that risk is minor.

Certainly, but it's often not the case, unfortunately.

Daijyashin said:
So sometimes I think it could be good take care of a doubt expressed and focusing more on them, instead of give few statement(that of course I know) that doesn't help me that much.

I understand and I agree with you, but you have to realize that the more people write and make points, the less one can focus on them while replying. A single, precise question in a thread can be answered in detail, but when someone makes broad statements and many points, it's a daunting task to respond to everything in detail. It already takes me a lot of time to reply a couple of lines to giant posts like those of Guts' intestines, and I already don't feel that the effort is worth it. So to write paragraphs upon paragraphs for each point is not an option. And sometimes simply reconsidering things while taking more than one part of the manga into account can be enough as well, so the need for a detailed explanation isn't felt.

If you have a precise question you wish people to focus on, I think making a dedicated thread is a good idea. Or at least, make a post asking about it specifically in a relevant thread. Is that Ok with you?
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Aazealh said:
Your Italian volume is indeed not correctly translated.

Yep, infact I always quested for better translation, especially the one concerning the eclipse.

Aazealh said:
Ok, whew, I think I understand what you mean. Basically you're saying the Idea of Evil was born from human feelings.

Yes, that's it.

Aazealh said:
I understand and I agree with you, but you have to realize that the more people write and make points, the less one can focus on them while replying. A single, precise question in a thread can be answered in detail, but when someone makes broad statements and many points, it's a daunting task to respond to everything in detail. It already takes me a lot of time to reply a couple of lines to giant posts like those of Guts' intestines, and I already don't feel that the effort is worth it. So to write paragraphs upon paragraphs for each point is not an option. And sometimes simply reconsidering things while taking more than one part of the manga into account can be enough as well, so the need for a detailed explanation isn't felt.

Ok, I can understand your effort to reply to everything, and I understand even that it's impossible to spent six hours to make a post and the need to be more detailed on some points isn't felt, upon you work. That is reasonable, but I see that you agree even on my point of view.

Aazealh said:
If you have a precise question you wish people to focus on, I think making a dedicated thread is a good idea. Or at least, make a post asking about it specifically in a relevant thread. Is that Ok with you?

Yes, I'll make this way, hoping that won't be the risk of reducing the detail of answers in regards of new several point to debate.(because I know that it's easy to go in off topic, but I'll never blame this aspect, because everything concerning Berserk is worth enough to be debated even if OT)
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Daijyashin said:
Yep, infact I always quested for better translation, especially the one concerning the eclipse.

Yeah... I bet you wish Panini would retranslate the volumes. Damn cheapskates.

Daijyashin said:
Yes, I'll make this way, hoping that won't be the risk of reducing the detail of answers in regards of new several point to debate.(because I know that it's easy to go in off topic, but I'll never blame this aspect, because everything concerning Berserk is worth enough to be debated even if OT)

Alright.

Now anyway I'm going to lock this thread because the last few posts are so big they're messing up the forum, and I don't want to see how far we can push it before it breaks. Guts' intestines has told me he was dropping the discussion until we would be given definitive answers, so if anyone feels like debating the point some more, please make a dedicated thread for it (with a link to this one if needed).
 
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