God Hand's sacrifice

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
I just started to read the "surviving sacrifice" thread and I got an idea.

Do you think that each God Hand member's sacrifice involved somehow a lot of people as in:

We have so far a speculation involving the inhabitants of a city probably resulting in the birth of one of the first God Hand.

Then we have Griffith sacrificing the Band of the Falcon.

Next is the 1000 ceremony (can't remember the name) resulting also in a lot of people dying (I know it's not a new God Hand ceremony but it's a ceremony involving a member of the God Hand) or should I count that one out?

Since the few apostle's sacrifice we've seen so far did not involved more then 2 or 3 person it could be possible...

So in the end do you think that everytime a member of the God Hand does a sacrifice (I mean for their own transformation into a God Hand member) it has involved a lot of people.

Any thoughts?

I'm just curious to know, I think it could be an interesting fact.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
jackson_hurley said:
Do you think that each God Hand member's sacrifice involved somehow a lot of people

I would say that it's not unlikely.

jackson_hurley said:
We have so far a speculation involving the inhabitants of a city probably resulting in the birth of one of the first God Hand.

That's just speculation though, not very reliable.

jackson_hurley said:
Next is the 1000 ceremony (can't remember the name) resulting also in a lot of people dying (I know it's not a new God Hand ceremony but it's a ceremony involving a member of the God Hand) or should I count that one out?

You probably should count it out. It's different from what happened during the Eclipse, though it mirrored it. A different ceremony with a different goal and a different result.

jackson_hurley said:
Since the few apostle's sacrifice we've seen so far did not involve more then 2 or 3 person it could be possible...

We know of few sacrifices by apostles and have seen even less. Worse, most were exceptional cases, like the Count's failed second sacrifice, or the Beherit-Apostle's unconventional one.

What can be said is that the way things are arranged on the grand scale of things probably accounts for everything, so that a future member of the God Hand will have a heftier sacrifice than a mere apostle. But really, that's just speculation and it's not impossible that an apostle could sacrifice a certain amount of people.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Aazealh said:
What can be said is that the way things are arranged on the grand scale of things probably accounts for everything, so that a future member of the God Hand will have a heftier sacrifice than a mere apostle. But really, that's just speculation and it's not impossible that an apostle could sacrifice a certain amount of people.

Thanks for your opinion Aaz. :guts: I just thought like you said that a member of the God Hand would have a heftier sacrifice than a mere apostle. I'm not saying that it's always gonna be like that but it could nice. :p

Edit: Just to be sure, we did see the original sacrifice the count did in the flashback the God Hand showed to his daughter didn't we? Didn't he just sacrifice his wife after killing everybody in the orgy?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
jackson_hurley said:
I'm not saying that it's always gonna be like that but it could nice. :p

It was the case for Griffith at least.

jackson_hurley said:
Edit: Just to be sure, we did see the original sacrifice the count did in the flashback the God Hand showed to his daughter didn't we? Didn't he just sacrifice his wife after killing everybody in the orgy?

Yes, he sacrificed his wife after having killed all the others. He couldn't bring himself to kill her and his anguish activated the beherit.
 
Could also be that God Hand sacrifices don't have to be bigger then normal apostle sacrifices, but that they are by default bigger because of the kind of people that become God Hands.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Well, this is quite speculatory on my part, but to me, Guts and - to a much lesser extent - Casca were the only persons who meant enough to Griffith to even be sacrificed. I think the nature of the Occultation pulled the rest of the Hawks "along for the ride."

Remember Griffith's final human thoughts - they were of Guts, and how he alone made Griffith forget his dream. Again, in my mind this means that Guts was *the* sacrifice. I don't think any number of the Hawks that didn't include him would've been an acceptable offering.

What does this imply? Maybe nothing. But maybe it means that the enclosed space of the Occultation - not a cosmic equation equalling the birth of a new God Hand - significantly raises the death toll.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
einherjar said:
Well, this is quite speculatory on my part, but to me, Guts and - to a much lesser extent - Casca were the only persons who meant enough to Griffith to even be sacrificed. I think the nature of the Occultation pulled the rest of the Hawks "along for the ride."

Remember Griffith's final human thoughts - they were of Guts, and how he alone made Griffith forget his dream. Again, in my mind this means that Guts was *the* sacrifice. I don't think any number of the Hawks that didn't include him would've been an acceptable offering.

What does this imply? Maybe nothing. But maybe it means that the enclosed space of the Occultation - not a cosmic equation equalling the birth of a new God Hand - significantly raises the death toll.

So are you saying that any and all caught in the vicinity of the Occultation (or enclosed space in your words) are possible sacrifices, regardless of how much the sacrificer cares about them? If so I think that the brand is the main determination that all of the hawks were a fitting sacrifice, though I agree that I doubt that the apostles would stop and not eat someone not deemed to be a sacrifice but I don't think such a situation would ever come up in which any members of a large sacrificial group were deemed not worthy sacrifices. Plus, I think Griffith did care about all of his soldiers, just as noni_moon said, he was willing to sacrifice his own body in order to prevent the potential loss of any of his men. But it is well known that Guts was his favorite and Casca was his second, there's no doubt about that.
 
There is also the possibility that the sacrifice is proportional to the power or role the new apostle/godhand will take. For example Griffith had to sacrifice basically everything to become a Godhand. His body from the torture and maybe his mind as well. He then had to sacrifice all of the remnants of his army that were used to obtain what was most important to him. The amount of suffering, torment, pain, etc could also play a role, for example it could taken a lot more of those feelings to give birth to a new godhand instead of a regular apostle. I just find it interesting that all of the lesser apostles also had a lesser sacrifice. Of course there is always the possibility that it doesn't matter at all and was just because of the circumstances of the person and the personality it takes to become a certain apostle like someone previously mentioned.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
EndlessSky said:
There is also the possibility that the sacrifice is proportional to the power or role the new apostle/godhand will take. For example Griffith had to sacrifice basically everything to become a Godhand. His body from the torture and maybe his mind as well. He then had to sacrifice all of the remnants of his army that were used to obtain what was most important to him. The amount of suffering, torment, pain, etc could also play a role, for example it could taken a lot more of those feelings to give birth to a new godhand instead of a regular apostle. I just find it interesting that all of the lesser apostles also had a lesser sacrifice. Of course there is always the possibility that it doesn't matter at all and was just because of the circumstances of the person and the personality it takes to become a certain apostle like someone previously mentioned.

First off, Griffith's torture and the mental agony that accompanied it was not part of the sacrifice. It did, however, cause him to reach the level of desperation necessary for the Beherit to be activated. (By his blood when he attempted suicide.)

And, as Aaz said earlier in this thread:

Aazealh said:
We know of few sacrifices by apostles and have seen even less. Worse, most were exceptional cases, like the Count's failed second sacrifice, or the Beherit-Apostle's unconventional one.

What can be said is that the way things are arranged on the grand scale of things probably accounts for everything, so that a future member of the God Hand will have a heftier sacrifice than a mere apostle. But really, that's just speculation and it's not impossible that an apostle could sacrifice a certain amount of people.

As I stated, I think the value of the individual sacrifice is more important than the body count of the sacrifice. We know Rosine sacrificed both her parents, and yet she seemed less powerful than the Count, whom we know to have sacrificed only one person (his wife). There was a thread a few months ago, where Aaz postulated that the characteristics of an apostle were, at least in part, based on their human selves... To paraphrase (because I'm too lazy to find the quote) "An unremarkable man would become and unremarkable apostle."

We know nothing of any sacrifice by any God Hand other than Griffith, so we can't say whether they sacrificed one or hundreds.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
That is why I started this thread in the first place. I , imo, think that each God Hand member somehow have sacrificed more people. And by that I mean that i agree with you einherjar that " an unremarkable man would become and unremarkable apostle". Except in the case of a God Hand I think it is a must that this person is unremarkable somehow , if not i would not see them fit to become a God Hand in the first place. Now I'm not saying that it is a must to sacrifice a lot of people when you become a God Hand but it would be interesting if it was the case that for each member a lot of person was involve. As for the case of the beherit apostle , it was a ceremony that had a big impact on the story as his creation led to the rebirth (can I say rebirth?) of Griffith. And when you take a look at Griffith's sacrifice, the band of the hawk wasn't that much people but still a lot. And I also think that the more people involved the more power you might get. (I remember reading somewhere here that apostles can goes to the God Hand ceremonies to enhance their power if they want , and I guess probably to also witness this event) My opinion anyway. :guts:

of course Aaz and einherjar are right in a way saying we didn't see much of the birth of the apostles so I could be waaay of here. That's why I'd like to see some flashback of a few apostles (known to us) creation to see if there was lots of people involved or not. I guess we'll have to wait and see. (if it ever happens anyway)
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
jackson_hurley said:
That is why I started this thread in the first place. I , imo, think that each God Hand member somehow have sacrificed more people. And by that I mean that i agree with you einherjar that " an unremarkable man would become and unremarkable apostle".

It was Aaz's idea first... I gave him credit, so don't go blaming me! :ganishka:

jackson_hurley said:
Except in the case of a God Hand I think it is a must that this person is unremarkable somehow , if not i would not see them fit to become a God Hand in the first place.

I think you mean that they must be remarkable, not what you said. :griff:


jackson_hurley said:
Now I'm not saying that it is a must to sacrifice a lot of people when you become a God Hand but it would be interesting if it was the case that for each member a lot of person was involve. As for the case of the beherit apostle , it was a ceremony that had a big impact on the story as his creation led to the rebirth (can I say rebirth?) of Griffith.

It's a reincarnation, not rebirth.

jackson_hurley said:
And when you take a look at Griffith's sacrifice, the band of the hawk wasn't that much people but still a lot. And I also think that the more people involved the more power you might get.

Well, the only comparison we can draw is between the Count and Rosine, because those are the only two apostles we know to have sacrificed one and two persons, respectively. And as I posted earlier, this one comparison doesn't appear to support your theory, IMHO.

jackson_hurley said:
(I remember reading somewhere here that apostles can goes to the God Hand ceremonies to enhance their power if they want , and I guess probably to also witness this event) My opinion anyway. :guts:

I've never heard such a thing... I just assumed they were drawn by their bloodlust.

jackson_hurley said:
of course Aaz and einherjar are right in a way saying we didn't see much of the birth of the apostles so I could be waaay of here. That's why I'd like to see some flashback of a few apostles (known to us) creation to see if there was lots of people involved or not. I guess we'll have to wait and see. (if it ever happens anyway)

We'll know when we need to, and not before, methinks.
 
einherjar said:
First off, Griffith's torture and the mental agony that accompanied it was not part of the sacrifice. It did, however, cause him to reach the level of desperation necessary for the Beherit to be activated. (By his blood when he attempted suicide.)

It may not have been part of the sacrifice ceremony itself but when the fortune teller told him "he had to sacrifice his flesh and blood" when he received the beherit was not a coincidence that he was tortured to the point to get him to that desperation so he would accept becoming a godhand.

Also, like you said we have seen very little of how the apostles came to be, so it could go either way because we've only seen two sacrifice a very small amount of people doesn't mean others haven't sacrificed many. The quantity of the people doesn't necessarily mean the value of the sacrifice either. Rosine didn't care too much about her parents in the first place while on the other hand the Count cared dearly for his wife and daughter. So it would be more painful,etc to sacrfice someone you have cared about than someone you really didnt in the first place. Anyway how do we know the count was more powerful than her in the first place?

Another point is, these are just wild theories of mine and not really what I believe to be the logic of Berserk. I'm just throwing other ideas out there to give more perspectives of what could be possible in the Berserk world. If anything I would have to agree its the "kind" of person you are and your fate that ultimately determines it but it could also take a certain level of value of sacarfice to acheive the reincarnation, a more remarkable person to turn into a more remarkable apostle would need a more remarkable sacarfice to acheive it not nessicarly depends on if you are or not if you understand what I'm saying.

For example, Griffith had the personailty to turn into a Godhand and for him to be able to manifest or be reborn into one may require a high value sacrifice than someone like rosine or the count would need because they were destined to be lesser apostles and because of this it all works out anyway because a remarkable person would have more as in "A King would have more to sacrifice than a peasant"
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
einherjar said:
It was Aaz's idea first... I gave him credit, so don't go blaming me! :ganishka:

Don't worry, I was just agreeing :guts:
einherjar said:
I think you mean that they must be remarkable, not what you said. :griff:

Yes thats what I wanted to say (I typed to fast hehe)

einherjar said:
It's a reincarnation, not rebirth.

Thanks for the clarification, I always mix the terms

einherjar said:
Well, the only comparison we can draw is between the Count and Rosine, because those are the only two apostles we know to have sacrificed one and two persons, respectively. And as I posted earlier, this one comparison doesn't appear to support your theory, IMHO.

Yeah well that's why we're in speculation :serpico: we'll have to wait and see if some answers come later on. (it's not like if it was a big speculation anyway just started that for fun you know :ganishka:)

einherjar said:
I've never heard such a thing... I just assumed they were drawn by their bloodlust.

HUmm I can't quite find where I saw that for the moment but I'll try to find it. he he

einherjar said:
We'll know when we need to, and not before, methinks.

Yeah that's why I don't ^put that much importance on my theory (which started more with an opinion question than anything)
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
jackson_hurley said:
(I remember reading somewhere here that apostles can goes to the God Hand ceremonies to enhance their power if they want , and I guess probably to also witness this event) My opinion anyway.
einherjar said:
I've never heard such a thing... I just assumed they were drawn by their bloodlust.
jackson_hurley said:
HUmm I can't quite find where I saw that for the moment but I'll try to find it. he he
It's just a bad translation. I've seen it twice now, and I remember it being a stumbling block for my own theories. Other translations, such as Ranemaka13's, say: "That's because all of the host gathered here in this place have come into power, summoned by the Beherit."

But here's how Dark Horse translated the line, in the more proper way:

"All apostles gathered here (the eclipse), used the Beherits to gain their proper form."
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Walter said:
It's just a bad translation. I've seen it twice now, and I remember it being a stumbling block for my own theories. Other translations, such as Ranemaka13's, say: "That's because all of the host gathered here in this place have come into power, summoned by the Beherit."

But here's how Dark Horse translated the line, in the more proper way:

"All apostles gathered here (the eclipse), used the Beherits to gain their proper form."

Thank you for the explanation Walt.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Walter said:
It's just a bad translation. I've seen it twice now, and I remember it being a stumbling block for my own theories. Other translations, such as Ranemaka13's, say: "That's because all of the host gathered here in this place have come into power, summoned by the Beherit."

But here's how Dark Horse translated the line, in the more proper way:

"All apostles gathered here (the eclipse), used the Beherits to gain their proper form."

Oh okay because I wasn't sure why they came to eclipses either, unless of course it was for the smorgasbord. So does that mean all those turned apostle through Beherits are compelled to go to the eclipse?
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
Guts' intestines said:
So does that mean all those turned apostle through Beherits are compelled to go to the eclipse?

I don't think so, Zodd wasn't in there [in the area, but not taking part of the ceremony] and I know I didn't see Ganishka there either.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Guts' intestines said:
Oh okay because I wasn't sure why they came to eclipses either, unless of course it was for the smorgasbord. So does that mean all those turned apostle through Beherits are compelled to go to the eclipse?
Yeah man, it's a free human buffet and a literal PAAAAARTY for apostles. I know I'd be all about heading to an eclipse to be reunited with my old evil dudes and eat human intestines, etc. :beast:
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
I don't think so, Zodd wasn't in there [in the area, but not taking part of the ceremony] and I know I didn't see Ganishka there either.
Walter said:
Yeah man, it's a free human buffet and a literal PAAAAARTY for apostles. I know I'd be all about heading to an eclipse to be reunited with my old evil dudes and eat human intestines, etc. :beast:

Yeah, I don't see Zodd as much of the social clubbing type, though if he would've survived long enough I could see Wyald taking some shots of human blood and bile at the old club eclipse :beast:. Mmmss, mmms, mmms, mmms *techno beat*.
 
I'm sure Wyald would have probably went since he was all about "fun and excitement."

That particular event only happens every few hundred years and is when their "masters" the God Hand actually descend to the physical world. So I think it is both kind of a religious event and party event for the apostles at the same time. Ganishka was probably too busy building his army and invasion plans to go to the eclipse anyway not to mention being far away. :ganishka:
 
To become a straight-up member of the God Hand rather than an Apostle, I was under the impression that

A.) One had to be a somewhat remarkable person (Royalty, Pope, conqueror)

and

B.) Possess a crimson Behelit, rather than the olive colored variant.


I didn't think the number of people sacrificed really made much of an issue. I figured that whatever unlucky shleps happened to be in the vicinity of the Eclipse were struck with a drive-by branding. :void:
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Madam President said:
I didn't think the number of people sacrificed really made much of an issue.

I don't think that either, I was just wondering if it was the case for every member of the God Hand so far, but since we don't have the information I will just stick with the :" it'd be cool if..."
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Madam President said:
To become a straight-up member of the God Hand rather than an Apostle, I was under the impression that... One had to be a somewhat remarkable person (Royalty, Pope, conqueror)
...
I didn't think the number of people sacrificed really made much of an issue.  I figured that whatever unlucky shleps happened to be in the vicinity of the Eclipse were struck with a drive-by branding. :void:
Neither of these beliefs is founded on ... anything, really. There's nothing to suggest a potential God Hand member has to be among some certain echelon of human society. This is an especially farfetched notion given that we know literally next to nothing about the background of any God Hand member aside from Femto.

And as for the second part, "whatever unlucky shleps" happen to be involved in an Eclipse are destined to be there. The path they take that lands them there is as woven into the threads of Causality as that of the one who will ultimately sacrifice them.

As other threads on this subject have already addressed, seeing as how Femto's birth was facilitated in some manner by the sacrificed Hawks' blood, it would imply a mass sacrifice is needed for the birth of a God Hand. Occultation ceremonies also serve a number of functions in giving their legion a chance to cut loose on a group of helpless humans, and sets the stage for Eclipses being grand events of sun-covered-in-sack-cloth proportions.
 
Top Bottom