Author Topic: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army  (Read 14116 times)

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Offline Walter

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Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« on: November 26, 2008, 08:54:40 PM »
With the unveiling of Irvine's apostle form, we're once again presented with an apostle design that is distinct and wholly more fantastic than the average evil doer, whose forms are generally grotesque. Why do different apostles have different apostle charictaristics? Zodd, Irvine, Locus and Grunberd all have unique forms, which is mirrored by their manners in human form.

What are you guys' thoughts? Why did Miura make these particular apostles look more fantastic?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 08:59:36 PM »
Maybe it has to do with who they were before their sacrifice, or maybe the particulars of said sacrifices.  Do you think Miura will eventually reveal their respective backstories in full?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 09:05:31 PM »
Do you think Miura will eventually reveal their respective backstories in full?

I hope so. It'd be a waste not to IMHO. But then again, we've yet to see Ganishka's...

Offline Walter

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 09:07:07 PM »
Do you think Miura will eventually reveal their respective backstories in full?
We can hope. But I think he's already alluded to Locus, Grunberd and Irvine's pasts on various occasions. I doubt he'll go into too much more detail, honestly.

I would like to learn of their sacrifices though. With the exception of Zodd, these don't seem like bloodthirsty types who would readily sacrifice their most loved ones to obtain more power. I remember Grunberd in particular seemed to act touchy when Guts questioned his honor.
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 09:12:19 PM »
We can hope. But I think he's already alluded to Locus, Grunberd and Irvine's pasts on various occasions.

Yeah, but I'm hungry for more. :guts:

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 10:42:50 PM »
Why do different apostles have different apostle charictaristics? Zodd, Irvine, Locus and Grunberd all have unique forms, which is mirrored by their manners in human form.

Well Zodd and company [excluding Rakshas] seem to be much more noble then your average apostle. Why I think they turn out the way they do? It probably has to do with their mentality. It would explain why some apostles turn out to be rubber chicken apostles and other turn into huge behemoths.

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What are you guys' thoughts? Why did Miura make these particular apostles look more fantastic?
He wanted them to stand out from the others.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2008, 12:12:20 AM »
I would wager that it has to be how their mind is set and their goals and things that they have done in the past. All though they are Apostles, they are not your average, just going to rape everyone and not care types, such as Snail and Snake Apostle. Zodd for example only fights other soldiers and warriors types. I cant really see the big contenders of the "Neo Hawks" wasting their time on women and children unless those types attacked them. That and I think its just a simple way of distinguishing who is more powerful and what not.
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Offline Grail

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2008, 12:47:59 AM »
Well, besides the obvious "better designs for more important apostles" explanation, I've always thought of a character's apostle form as a direct reflection of their greatest ambitions from their human life.

The Snail Count is a pretty interesting example. After to his wife's adultery, the Count had lost control over the relationship most important to him, and as an apostle, strove correct that weakness. With his new form, he always has the upper... tentacle? :guts: Until the end, at least.

Regarding Irvine's apostle form, I believe that it shows a lot about his character without actually giving him a backstory. Both he and his little beast buddy have horns, and besides serving a purpose in the case of the latter, I think it's reasonable to say that there's a super secret symbolic meaning that we can consider. :carcus: As a hunter, Irvine can be characterized as a predator, although the horns suggest the image of prey. With the two archetypes fused together in Irvine's apostle form, I wonder if he harbored a desire to become both hunter and the hunted, forming the circle of life within himself and thus, embodying PERFECTION! :void:

And, you know, he looks pretty cool.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 01:19:33 AM by Grail »

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2008, 01:37:10 AM »
My biggest question has always been, why don't they crave human flesh? Have we ever even seen Zodd consume human flesh before?

My guess would be that they are a higher echelon of apostle, where they still retain their desires as humans and probably have a greater understanding on how the world works.

Also, I may be completely wrong, but have we ever actually seen a living apostle transform back to a human before? I can't recall if we have, and though a bit off topic, it seems very strange to me that Miura has somehow left that out all this time.

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2008, 01:43:46 AM »
My biggest question has always been, why don't they crave human flesh? Have we ever even seen Zodd consume human flesh before?

I brought this up before with Aaz. We really don't know if he's ever eaten people or what. He's been around for a while and if he has eaten people in the past he's over it now from what we have seen.

Offline IgnusDei

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 02:00:35 AM »
Here's a possibility (although i can't recall anything in the manga that proves or disproves it)

What if the Greater Apostles, such as Zodd, were born as such, and no sacrifice was required? It might explain why they're not as "insane" as the common apostle: Most who were granted the "gift" were wretched and weak, and the sudden rush of power immediately after the traumatic experience of sacrificing a loved one is enough to drive one over the edge. If the Greater Apostles always had that power, or if it emerged slowly as they aged, then they'd have to deal with the fact that they were never even human in the first place. With this in mind, you can see that each Senior Member of the new Hawks developed their own coping mechanisms: Zodd has his warrior's pride. Grunbeld has his warlust. Locus has the knight's code, and Irvine is fond of solitude in the wilds. Rakshas? well...i don't think he did too well.  :p


Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 02:05:51 AM »
Here's a possibility (although i can't recall anything in the manga that proves or disproves it)

What if the Greater Apostles, such as Zodd, were born as such, and no sacrifice was required? It might explain why they're not as "insane" as the common apostle: Most who were granted the "gift" were wretched and weak, and the sudden rush of power immediately after the traumatic experience of sacrificing a loved one is enough to drive one over the edge. If the Greater Apostles always had that power, or if it emerged slowly as they aged, then they'd have to deal with the fact that they were never even human in the first place. With this in mind, you can see that each Senior Member of the new Hawks developed their own coping mechanisms: Zodd has his warrior's pride. Grunbeld has his warlust. Locus has the knight's code, and Irvine is fond of solitude in the wilds. Rakshas? well...i don't think he did too well.  :p



If thats the case, why did Griffith have to live out his life as a human to become a God Hand?
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Offline Grail

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2008, 02:06:36 AM »
I brought this up before with Aaz. We really don't know if he's ever eaten people or what. He's been around for a while and if he has eaten people in the past he's over it now from what we have seen.
Yeah, flesheating is like, just one of those phases, you know? :troll:

Also, I may be completely wrong, but have we ever actually seen a living apostle transform back to a human before? I can't recall if we have, and though a bit off topic, it seems very strange to me that Miura has somehow left that out all this time.
No apostle has reverted to their original human form alive, no. At least, not as far as Miura's shown us. I'm tempted to say it's impossible, since it seems like a bit of a let-down to reverse the effects of an occultation. It's like becoming a member of a monster mafia; once you're in, you're in forever. :zodd:

Offline IgnusDei

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2008, 02:16:19 AM »
If thats the case, why did Griffith have to live out his life as a human to become a God Hand?

I actually thought about this, if the greatest demon of them all had to be born a human, then my suggestion loses some validity...Plus, Griffith came out of the ordeal "sane"... although he's got the emotional depth and practicality of a psychopath, now.

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2008, 02:48:40 AM »
Here's a possibility (although i can't recall anything in the manga that proves or disproves it)

What if the Greater Apostles, such as Zodd, were born as such, and no sacrifice was required?
That don't make sense.  Besides that isn't how it works.

Quote
It might explain why they're not as "insane" as the common apostle: Most who were granted the "gift" were wretched and weak, and the sudden rush of power immediately after the traumatic experience of sacrificing a loved one is enough to drive one over the edge.
I don't really think many or any of the apostles are really insane. You basically hit the nail on the head. They are wretched and weak at the time they are making their sacrifice. Take the DC game as an example Balzac took a lot of time trying to cure his wife, but after his run in with Guts he was dying and gave in sacrificing his wife.

Yeah, flesheating is like, just one of those phases, you know? :troll:
Well for apostles it could be.   :ganishka:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 02:32:15 PM by Vampire_Hunter_Bob »

Offline Nomad

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2008, 03:22:48 AM »
  In a technical aspect there's very little or nothing to really pint point these looks as far as the apostles goes.  But in a sense and with no backup regarding the manga, I've always consider that each individual given the opportunity to become an apostle manifests it's desires not only by their powers but by it's appearance.  I asked myself that question before and the only logic I could find to my own little knowledge and speculation is that there is a bigger or more in depth meaning under causalities structure? 

  In the world before the God Hand appear, most of the Band of the Hawk members had a strong, deep character based on their personalities. I don't know under what scale that would fall but it would give them a more individual value?  Could be the same at this point with the Neo Hawks and the selected few outside the Hawk brand?  A bigger, more errrr... deep than your regular "Joe" apostle if you will.  Because this people committed their sacrifice for whatever reason and are capable of such horrible act, does not imply that their personalities or desires are allways dark, ugly and flat out standard (as far as looks goes).  Either that, or it's just Miura separating the man from the boys, sort of speak.

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 05:16:28 AM »
No apostle has reverted to their original human form alive, no. At least, not as far as Miura's shown us. I'm tempted to say it's impossible, since it seems like a bit of a let-down to reverse the effects of an occultation. It's like becoming a member of a monster mafia; once you're in, you're in forever. :zodd:


Heh, I felt I worded that wrong when I typed it. I meant transform back to a "human" like when Zodd transforms into his apostle form, then back to his more "human" form. Not a reversal of being an apostle in general.

We've seen Zodd transform into a monster time after time, but not once have we seen him go from monster to "normal" Zodd. Not once. And that goes for all of the apostles as far as I know, so what I'm wondering is why? Somehow they just magically appear later in the story back in their normal form. It seems to me that Miura would've shown that transformation at least once by now, aside from when apostles die. Makes me speculate a bit.

Offline Grail

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 05:53:07 AM »
Heh, I felt I worded that wrong when I typed it. I meant transform back to a "human" like when Zodd transforms into his apostle form, then back to his more "human" form. Not a reversal of being an apostle in general.

We've seen Zodd transform into a monster time after time, but not once have we seen him go from monster to "normal" Zodd. Not once. And that goes for all of the apostles as far as I know, so what I'm wondering is why? Somehow they just magically appear later in the story back in their normal form. It seems to me that Miura would've shown that transformation at least once by now, aside from when apostles die. Makes me speculate a bit.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you meant "human" in the literal sense. :guts:

Anyway, I noticed that too, but I figured it's just because it's not necessary to the story to show what's basically a reversed transformation. Miura tends to leave out a lot of non-essentials (eating, traveling, shaving, etc) for which the reader is expected to fill in with their imagination, and I guess the apostles' return to a human appearance is one of them.

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2008, 06:06:38 AM »
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you meant "human" in the literal sense. :guts:

Anyway, I noticed that too, but I figured it's just because it's not necessary to the story to show what's basically a reversed transformation. Miura tends to leave out a lot of non-essentials (eating, traveling, shaving, etc) for which the reader is expected to fill in with their imagination, and I guess the apostles' return to a human appearance is one of them.

Valid point. But is this something that he really intends to leave to our imagination? Like when apostles die, they turn back into their original human form, but that was deemed significant enough to show us. I agree that it most likely is due to a story-telling element. Like, if we saw Grunbeld go back to his human form after his fight with Guts', that might incur some sympathy from the reader where it wasn't implied. Grunbeld was meant to be a total monster during that scene. But for a character like Zodd, it makes me wonder, does something happen to apostles when they transform back to their more "mortal" state? Perhaps they become more vulnerable?

I'm definitely going into a more speculative direction, but I feel the nature of apostles, and beherits even, is very unknown. Actually everything to do with the Idea of Evil seems very foreign to the nature of the world, even in the setting of Berserk. There's just so much to theorize on it's mind-boggling. Perhaps they become extremely drained of all their energy when they transform back, and are basically helpless, that would explain why they never do it, especially when Guts is around. Maybe there's a time limit on how long they can be transformed?

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2008, 02:04:35 PM »
Valid point. But is this something that he really intends to leave to our imagination?
Like when apostles die, they turn back into their original human form, but that was deemed significant enough to show us. I agree that it most likely is due to a story-telling element.
He leaves it to our imagination because it's a waste of time for him having to put pointless details into the story like the apostles reverting back.

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Like, if we saw Grunbeld go back to his human form after his fight with Guts', that might incur some sympathy from the reader where it wasn't implied. Grunbeld was meant to be a total monster during that scene. But for a character like Zodd, it makes me wonder, does something happen to apostles when they transform back to their more "mortal" state? Perhaps they become more vulnerable?
I don't think it would invoke sympathy with the reader. Lets say if Grunbeld had died in a bad way defending a group of humans from a swarm of Mini-Ganishka then yeah that would make me look at him in a more sympathetic light, but just having him revert back to a human form after fighting Guts wouldn't do the same thing and would just make me the reader question why Miura felt it necessary.

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I'm definitely going into a more speculative direction, but I feel the nature of apostles, and beherits even, is very unknown. Actually everything to do with the Idea of Evil seems very foreign to the nature of the world, even in the setting of Berserk. There's just so much to theorize on it's mind-boggling. Perhaps they become extremely drained of all their energy when they transform back, and are basically helpless, that would explain why they never do it, especially when Guts is around.
Well there is no evidence to show that the transformation back to their human form is a taxing process for them. For the most part Grunbeld and Zodd and the rest of the Neo-Hawk Gang are ferocious fighters in their human forms and transformed either because of a Guts encounter or currently with the mini-Ganishka.

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Maybe there's a time limit on how long they can be transformed?
That's just silly.  :ganishka:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2008, 02:36:42 PM »
Well Zodd and company [excluding Rakshas] seem to be much more noble then your average apostle.

Well you might as well include Rakshas in the lot if you go that way. He's certainly a peculiar apostle, and not more ruthless than the others.

Why I think they turn out the way they do? It probably has to do with their mentality.

Yes. It's just who they are. I've been saying that for years and I still believe it as strongly as on day one. In life some people are great and some others are just lame. It isn't necessarily innate: it's a combination of many things. Same for apostles. We don't have to try to go into details or to pinpoint a particular factor. It's the sum of all parts that matters. Zodd is superior to a random critter in the same way Guts is superior to a random soldier.

The Snail Count is a pretty interesting example. After to his wife's adultery, the Count had lost control over the relationship most important to him, and as an apostle, strove correct that weakness. With his new form, he always has the upper... tentacle?

But that's got nothing to do with his greatest ambition in life (we don't really know what that was anyway). After he discovered his wife's betrayal he was crushed, and sacrificed her in order to escape the pain she caused him. As an apostle he just ate and executed people arbitrarily (apparently?). I don't think he really strove to correct something. He did shield his daughter from the outside world though, to the point of sequestration.

Regarding Irvine's apostle form, I believe that it shows a lot about his character without actually giving him a backstory. Both he and his little beast buddy have horns, and besides serving a purpose in the case of the latter, I think it's reasonable to say that there's a super secret symbolic meaning that we can consider. :carcus: As a hunter, Irvine can be characterized as a predator, although the horns suggest the image of prey. With the two archetypes fused together in Irvine's apostle form, I wonder if he harbored a desire to become both hunter and the hunted, forming the circle of life within himself and thus, embodying PERFECTION! :void:

I don't like the idea of him desiring "perfection" too much, however there's some validity to the rest of what you said. He incorporates features of both hunter and prey, and we know he's the solitary type. Maybe that form of his reflects his adequation with woodland, a sort of communion with nature that some trappers feel.

My biggest question has always been, why don't they crave human flesh? Have we ever even seen Zodd consume human flesh before?

We've never seen Zodd eat anything, so that doesn't mean much. He could be eating people off screen all the time for all we know. I don't believe it's the case, but it's possible.

Anyway, from what we've seen in volume 23, we know that apostles can eat animals instead of humans if they have to. So while we don't know how it really is, it's possible that they all crave human flesh but that some refrain from doing it. Zodd didn't look disgusted after using his mouth to shred people apart though.

My guess would be that they are a higher echelon of apostle, where they still retain their desires as humans and probably have a greater understanding on how the world works.

Or some apostles just don't partake in as much debauchery as others, because of who they are. I don't think it's a matter of a higher echelon (as in "normal apostles < superior apostles < God Hand"), even though Griffith's lieutenants are clearly more sophisticated than the average bumpkin apostle.

Also, I may be completely wrong, but have we ever actually seen a living apostle transform back to a human before? I can't recall if we have, and though a bit off topic, it seems very strange to me that Miura has somehow left that out all this time.

No, it's never happened. I don't think it's strange though, the occasion just hasn't presented itself yet.

What if the Greater Apostles, such as Zodd, were born as such, and no sacrifice was required?

Well aside from what Saiya pointed out, it would seem weird for them to be exceptions, created differently and all. Especially since they're by all means of the same kin. See the way Locus talks to Ganishka for example, "from apostle to apostle", that sort of stuff. And from what we know of their past through Mule or Silat, it appears they were once human (Rakshas was banned from the Bakiraka, Mule had heard Locus was dead, etc.).

No apostle has reverted to their original human form alive, no. At least, not as far as Miura's shown us. I'm tempted to say it's impossible, since it seems like a bit of a let-down to reverse the effects of an occultation.

First off, apostles don't receive their power during an Occultation ceremony (i.e. a ceremony during which the sun is occulted, also known as an eclipse). That's only for the members of the God Hand. Second, well, Deci has already explained what he meant between the time I started to reply and now, so I don't have a second point anymore. :guts:

I don't really think many or any of the apostles are really insane.

Yeah, it's not how I'd describe them either.

We've seen Zodd transform into a monster time after time, but not once have we seen him go from monster to "normal" Zodd. Not once. And that goes for all of the apostles as far as I know, so what I'm wondering is why? Somehow they just magically appear later in the story back in their normal form. It seems to me that Miura would've shown that transformation at least once by now, aside from when apostles die.

When they die it's quite different. Their body reverts to what it once was, before their soul was tainted. It can't really be compared. Anyway, I don't think there's anything "magical" about it, it simply hasn't been shown. Imagine a reversed transformation and I'm pretty sure you'll have it. Like Grail said, one of the reasons it hasn't been shown is because it's just not very important or interesting.

But is this something that he really intends to leave to our imagination? Like when apostles die, they turn back into their original human form, but that was deemed significant enough to show us.

And it is really quite significant.

Like, if we saw Grunbeld go back to his human form after his fight with Guts', that might incur some sympathy from the reader where it wasn't implied.

I don't think so. It's just part of those off-screen scenes. We also didn't see them walk back from Flora's place and camp by the side of the road, nor did we see Grunberd getting his armor and warhammer replaced, etc.

But for a character like Zodd, it makes me wonder, does something happen to apostles when they transform back to their more "mortal" state? Perhaps they become more vulnerable?

Honestly I don't think anything special happens. Just a reverse-transformation.

I'm definitely going into a more speculative direction, but I feel the nature of apostles, and beherits even, is very unknown. Actually everything to do with the Idea of Evil seems very foreign to the nature of the world, even in the setting of Berserk.

I disagree. We know where beherits come from, what they're made of, what their purpose is, and who sends them to the world and "controls" them. And apostles themselves aren't that complicated. We don't know some of the technicalities of course, but we've got the main picture down. Hell, going by episode 83, we even know quite a bit about the Idea of Evil itself.

Perhaps they become extremely drained of all their energy when they transform back, and are basically helpless, that would explain why they never do it, especially when Guts is around. Maybe there's a time limit on how long they can be transformed?

They're immensely stronger in their apostle form than in their human one, THAT is why they never do it while Guts is around. The reason they usually transform into their apostle form in the first place is in order to kill him because they have failed to do it in their human form, so reverting would make no sense. There's no need to come up with tortuous reasons for such simple things.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2008, 03:45:51 PM »
I hate to interject but haven't we infact already seen an apostle revert back into their human form when Ganishka did so to escape death by wind the first time he faced off against griffith?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2008, 03:51:30 PM »
I hate to interject but haven't we infact already seen an apostle revert back into their human form when Ganishka did so to escape death by wind the first time he faced off against griffith?

Is that really his apostle form? And was he really going to die? My tentative answer to both questions is no. But as far as apostles reverting, we've seen some intermediate states and other small things before if you want to be picky. Rosine reverting from a "moth form" to a more human-looking form when meeting Jill in volume 15, for example.


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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2008, 09:06:33 PM »
Is that really his apostle form? And was he really going to die? My tentative answer to both questions is no. But as far as apostles reverting, we've seen some intermediate states and other small things before if you want to be picky. Rosine reverting from a "moth form" to a more human-looking form when meeting Jill in volume 15, for example.


Yeah I was going to ask the same thing, I had thought the fog was Ganishka's apostle form, if not then whatever he could turn into in his current state would be really huge.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2008, 09:14:35 PM »
Yeah I was going to ask the same thing, I had thought the fog was Ganishka's apostle form, if not then whatever he could turn into in his current state would be really huge.

I think it's obvious that in his current state, he's beyond transforming into anything. I wouldn't even call him an apostle anymore. As for his fog form, while there unfortunately isn't a truly definitive proof, there are many things that can lead us to believe that it wasn't his apostle form but rather something he created using magic. There have been several discussions about it since the time he first transformed, if you're interested.