Irvine's apostle form, and others in Griffith's army

Aazealh said:

I think it's obvious that in his current state, he's beyond transforming into anything. I wouldn't even call him an apostle anymore. As for his fog form, while there unfortunately isn't a truly definitive proof, there are many things that can lead us to believe that it wasn't his apostle form but rather something he created using magic. There have been several discussions about it since the time he first transformed, if you're interested.

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Yeah definitely should have put "if he could turn into anything" somewhere in there, and now that I think about it Ganishka was injured by Guts in fog form but I think he was controlling that form from his fortress in the form we are used to seeing him in, so it more than likely was just a magical extension of him. I guess this means we won't ever see his original true apostle form since he is beyond turning into it now.

Guts' intestines said:

now that I think about it Ganishka was injured by Guts in fog form but I think he was controlling that form from his fortress in the form we are used to seeing him in, so it more than likely was just a magical extension of him.

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Yes, exactly. In fact it's made perfectly clear by Schierke that this particular giant cloud-form was magical in origin. And there's more to it too, many things in fact... That I encourage you to read in old threads because I'm tired now and I'm going to go sleep.

Guts' intestines said:

I guess this means we won't ever see his original true apostle form since he is beyond turning into it now.

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I'm dreading the same thing. I hope we'll see it in a flashback, or at least that we'll get an explanation of some sorts (maybe from Daiba?). And since we're talking about it, I'd also like to know how he came to power and how he learned magic.

If anything, we'll probably see his original apostle form in a flashback sacrifice sequence, similiar to the Count flashback.

The thing were someone mentioned certain apostles being born one I whole-heartedly disagree. The whole theme in Berserk is about people making choices. Wether or not to give into desperation, weakness, desires, or take the hard road and not lose yourself to it. All the apostles, to me, embody people who have givin in to their flaws and desperation, who took the easy road out. People being born as apostles just doesn't really fit into this whole idea of what apostles are for me.

I also don't think that eating humans is a typical apostle thing or that it's super strange that we don't see Zodd and co do it. Apostles are like humans but without all of the restraints. For some that just means to kill and eat every human and just be a sick and depraved bastard, for others it means getting into every battle and war there is. It just depends on what kind of person they were and the kind of desires that they act upon that they couldn't truly fullfill in their human life.

Shadax said:

The thing were someone mentioned certain apostles being born one I whole-heartedly disagree. The whole theme in Berserk is about people making choices. Wether or not to give into desperation, weakness, desires, or take the hard road and not lose yourself to it. All the apostles, to me, embody people who have givin in to their flaws and desperation, who took the easy road out. People being born as apostles just doesn't really fit into this whole idea of what apostles are for me.

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Well everything else you said was already covered by Aaz, myself and others. Well for the most part apostles ARE people who gave in because they for that one moment in time were weak and wounded. As far as Apostles being born, just ignore it.

Shadax said:

The whole theme in Berserk is about people making choices. Wether or not to give into desperation, weakness, desires, or take the hard road and not lose yourself to it.

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I'm pretty sure the primary theme of Berserk is more along the lines of.. the internal and external conflicts of people or maybe I should say "the characters". Human nature, human will, corruption due to desire, loss of humanity, causality, struggling against opposition.. revenge, etc. Internal and external conflicts and struggles are basically the primary themes of the story. It's not really all that much about people making choices. Yes the characters makes choice but I wouldn't call it the "whole" theme. Mainly because the theme of making choices, fails to properly sum up Berserk.

Guts' struggle for revenge, his struggle within himself, his struggle with other characters, his struggle with his humanity, his struggle to save the women he loves, his constant struggle to survive despite all odds, Griffith's struggle to get his own kingdom, Skullknight's struggle against the God Hand and the apostles, etc. It's all about struggle and conflict both internal and external. Indecision or choosing between options is hardly the main theme. Or at least that's my two cents.

To get back on topic: I think Miura made those apostle look so unique because he just could, to distinguish them for us because they are main characters and to make them more sympathetic for us. So more out of a designers perspective then there being a specific story behind their looks. If there is a story behind it or a reason they look like they look ( like it embodies something of the reason why they became apostle) that it is more something he thought of to do later in the storyline.

Walter said:

I would like to learn of their sacrifices though. With the exception of Zodd, these don't seem like bloodthirsty types who would readily sacrifice their most loved ones to obtain more power. I remember Grunberd in particular seemed to act touchy when Guts questioned his honor.

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To me that just raises a giant red flag. Like Guts said it himself to Grunbeld, Grunbeld isn't a real warrior, he is just playing warrior. I don't think that Grunbeld is a noble warrior at heart, just someone wanting to be known as one for all the wrong reasons and that having something to do with how he became an apostle. To me he just seems like he is overcompensating.

Zodd just seems like mister ego. He lives for battle and that is all he has on his mind and the reason he became an apostle I'd wager. So he could battle to his hearts content without any constraints looking for that one magical opponent that makes it all worthwhile to prove how good he really is without really having to care for anyone or anything else. That's also where his sense of honor comes from since an unfair battle is an unsatisfactory one.

Irvine is just the really strange duck in the pond tho and the most interesting one.

I've been wondering how Irvine actually transforms into his apostle form. The way I'm envisioning it is that a giant appendage grows out of his crotch and somehow merges with his bow to become the deer-like part of his apostle form.

Aazealh said:

Is that really his apostle form? And was he really going to die? My tentative answer to both questions is no.

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Hate to revive this old thread, but was it not explicitly explained in volume 34, page 115 that the cloud form of the emperor is indeed his apostle form? When the Emperor was assassinated after drinking poison, he reaches for his Behelit and is then transformed into the cloud apparition.

Tenfarther said:

Hate to revive this old thread, but was it not explicitly explained in volume 34, page 115 that the cloud form of the emperor is indeed his apostle form?

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Yes it was.