Can Apostles Breed?

IgnusDei

mmh-hmm good.
A little while ago i posted a theory that the Senior Apostles in Griffith's army were BORN demons, explaining why they weren't as crazed or as sadistic as the more common ones. Farfetched, since there simply aren't any facts to back it up. When i reconsidered the point, i came across a problem that piqued my curiosity:

Can Apostles breed?

They can definitely multiply, although the method by which this is achieved varies from apostle to apostle: The count could anoint with his own flesh, Rosine could set up cocoons, and the Egg apostle could infect.

But what about doing it the "old fashioned way"? Femto demonstrated that Demons still have fully functionning sex organs (although filled with demonic spunk). Wyald demonstrated the need to use them nearly constantly, even on the job, raising the question of how many bastards he might've left behind. Jill expressed concerns whether or not he failed cocooning would impact her future children. Trolls, while not apostles, were capable of impregnating the kidnapped women of Enoch, resulting in more trolls and setting a precedent for supernatural breeding.

Unfortunately, it looks as though Apostles themselves can only taint, not create: Femto himself could only taint an existing fetus, resulting in the "triple-conception" of the Demon Child. The previously stated examples all required pre-existing human hosts, as well. And Ganishka could have set up "rape racks", through which Apostles could be forced to mate with humans, but instead built the Daka factories, also requiring the corruption of a pre-conceived being.

Nevertheless, i think I'm missing some information, and i was hoping someone here could help me shed some light on the matter.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
IgnusDei said:
A little while ago i posted a theory that the Senior Apostles in Griffith's army were BORN demons, explaining why they weren't as crazed or as sadistic as the more common ones. Farfetched, since there simply aren't any facts to back it up. When i reconsidered the point, i came across a problem that piqued my curiosity:

Can Apostles breed?
Of course how else did Zodd knock up Guts' mom? Joking aside, most of those apostles [Zodd and Grunbeld come to mind] look like they would kill their "hoe" during the sex act. Of course Irvine and Locus could have sex with out killing their partner [As long as they don't kill their partner violently]. So until we see a bunch of Locus' children running round I'll have to say, I don't know.

Unfortunately, it looks as though Apostles can only taint, not create: Femto himself could only taint an existing fetus, resulting in the "triple-conception" of the Demon Child.
Griffith isn't an apostle, he's a member of the God Hand. Also I wouldn't say it was a triple-conception he only tainted Guts' and Casca's child.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
IgnusDei said:
Can Apostles breed?

Like Walter said, nothing suggests it. I'd tend to say no, because if they could they would have already, and we'd have seen their children.

IgnusDei said:
Jill expressed concerns whether or not he failed cocooning would impact her future children.

That's an awful mistranslation. What she actually says is that maybe the blood of Rosine mixed with the fluids Guts poured (from the cocoons) washed her childhood away.

IgnusDei said:
Femto himself could only taint an existing fetus, resulting in the "triple-conception" of the Demon Child.

I have to agree with VHB here: since he could only taint it, I wouldn't call it a "triple-conception".
 

IgnusDei

mmh-hmm good.
Well, that depends on how you interpret the term: Obviously, had Femto not raped Casca, the child would've been normal, but we all know that the Demon Child owes its nature and premature birth to the fifth God Hand, making him a sort "second father".
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
IgnusDei said:
Well, that depends on how you interpret the term: Obviously, had Femto not raped Casca, the child would've been normal, but we all know that the Demon Child owes its nature and premature birth to the fifth God Hand

Of course, the rape played a major role in what the boy has become. However calling Femto a "second father" is inviting confusion for those who don't know the details of how things went down, and personally I always try to avoid that.
 

IgnusDei

mmh-hmm good.
Aazealh said:
Of course, the rape played a major role in what the boy has become. However calling Femto a "second father" is inviting confusion for those who don't know the details of how things went down, and personally I always try to avoid that.

Ah. Gotcha.
 
I seem to recall Ganishka wanting to breed with Princess Charlotte. Something about having her bear his child.
Wouldn't that support the conclusion that apostles can indeed breed. I somehow doubt that Ganishka was blowing smoke and simply wanted to bone her.

Volume 27, Episode 231:
page11

Ganishka - You know what I am talking about. To give birth to my child

Ganishka - This is common knowledge in war. If you are a queen of a nation
then you should know as well.

page 12

If you take in my blood, then the nation can rule your nation without further
war. You should not be wanting to see more killing of your people.

Charlotte - ....I I don't understand...

Ganishka - I am not someone who was born from a beast. From day when your
nation fell, I gave you enough time to prepare yourself.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Ramen4ever said:
I seem to recall Ganishka wanting to breed with Princess Charlotte. Something about having her bear his child.
Wouldn't that support the conclusion that apostles can indeed breed. I somehow doubt that Ganishka was blowing smoke and simply wanted to bone her.

Indeed, good point. Would it work though? Maybe he didn't know whether it was possible or not, or maybe he intended to use an artifice of some sort. And of course, maybe it is possible after all (yet the question would remain of why we haven't seen any so far). Makes that question all the more interesting, and the fact we don't have an answer all the more frustrating.
 
Aazealh said:
Indeed, good point. Would it work though? Maybe he didn't know whether it was possible or not, or maybe he intended to use an artifice of some sort...

I would like to lean towards the conclusion that he did know that it's possible. If it was Wyald saying it, I would have doubts. But this is Ganishka we're talking about. He's one of the few apostles that has a lot of knowledge.. especially in such matters. His grotesque creations like the Daka would support this conclusion as well. Not to mention that his character is quite serious, he's not one to joke about anything.
Makes you wonder, does he have any bastard offspring's serving as commanders back in the Kushan Empire? I mean his empire does consist of a lot of unified clans. :carcus:

As for an artifice. I would doubt it. After confronting the Princess he kinda just .. dove right in. Though it could be possible that he intended to impregnate her then throw her in the Daka factory?

Thoughts?

Edit sorry just realized you edited your post. >_<

I think the real question, if it is possible, is what the result would be? We know that a fetus can be corrupted. However despite just writing above about the Princess possibly being thrown in the Daka Factory, what if Ganishka intended to have a "normal" child. As a demon looking baby would not be the ideal form of a person that is supposed to help unite two warring nations.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Ramen4ever said:
I would like to lean towards the conclusion that he did know that it's possible. If it was Wyald saying it, I would have doubts. But this is Ganishka we're talking about. He's one of the few apostles that has a lot of knowledge.. especially in such matters.

Well as far as having sex goes, I'm actually not sure Ganishka has more experience than Wyald, sorry to tell you. :carcus:

Ramen4ever said:
His grotesque creations like the Daka would support this conclusion as well. [...] As for an artifice. I would doubt it. After confronting the Princess he kinda just .. dove right in. Though it could be possible that he intended to impregnate her then throw her in the Daka factory?

What I meant by "artifice" is that he'd get her pregnant one way or another but not through the simple natural means of his sperm fertilizing her and producing a baby. How he'd do that though... The only limit is our imagination. But it's true he just went for it, so that possibility can't be ruled out.

Ramen4ever said:
Makes you wonder, does he have any bastard offspring's serving as commanders back in the Kushan Empire? I mean his empire does consist of a lot of unified clans. :carcus:

But you'd think if he had any offspring he'd have kept them close to him instead of relying on normal subjects driven by fear, don't you agree?
 
Aazealh said:
Well as far as having sex goes, I'm actually not sure Ganishka has more experience than Wyald, sorry to tell you. :carcus:

lol you win!! :ganishka:
I was actually thinking more along the lines of who's a more reliable source for information. Wyald demonstrated that he was not very clear with what apostles are allowed to do or maybe I should say.. how things work.

Aazealh said:
But you'd think if he had any offspring he'd have kept them close to him instead of relying on normal subjects driven by fear, don't you agree?

Or maybe he doesn't trust his human minions and he left an offspring in charge of the Kushan Empire while he's on the offensive. :carcus:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Ramen4ever said:
I think the real question, if it is possible, is what the result would be? We know that a fetus can be corrupted. However despite just writing above about the Princess possibly being thrown in the Daka Factory, what if Ganishka intended to have a "normal" child. As a demon looking baby would not be the ideal form of a person that is supposed to help unite two warring nations.

While Femto's immense evil corrupted Guts & Casca's child, that doesn't really tell us anything about an apostle's capacity to have children (and if they could, whether the children would be normal or not).

Anyway, it's true that a freak baby wouldn't be the best, but then again Ganishka might not have been looking at the long term picture. I mean, remember what Wyndham looked like at the time... He's not called the "Emperor of Terror" for no reason. The mere announcement of her pregnancy (or even willingness to bear his child or become his consort) could have been enough to put an end to the war. See how the nobles were despaired before Griffith showed up with Charlotte in Vritannis; the royal blood is all that matters to them. And after that... He might have taken care of things his own way. :zodd:

If we get a little imaginative, he could have also planned to infect her with something he concocted to artificially generate a pregnancy. Or just have a random Kushan guy impregnate her after having doped her with his fog. Having sexual intercourse might have just been a facade for her, to make sure she was willing to play her part.

Ramen4ever said:
I was actually thinking more along the lines of who's a more reliable source for information. Wyald demonstrated that he was not very clear with what apostles are allowed to do or maybe I should say.. how things work.

Yeah I know. Wyald was an ignoramus. I don't think his knowledge of what apostles are "allowed" to do was faulty though (since they basically do whatever they want).

Ramen4ever said:
Or maybe he doesn't trust his human minions and he left an offspring in charge of the Kushan Empire while he's on the offensive. :carcus:

Leaving the throne to your son/daughter while you're away? That's kind of risky if you look at history. For a sovereign, children are potential rivals first and foremost, especially in the case of someone who can't die of old age (and who consequently doesn't need a heir). A fearful minister with no more legitimacy than what you're giving him would seem a safer bet. And that's assuming he'd have only one child. Anyhow, this is all just baseless speculation at this point.
 
I thought that was how Ganishka made the Daka in the first place? Through some of kind of controlled breeding with apostles and human women.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
EndlessSky said:
I thought that was how Ganishka made the Daka in the first place? Through some of kind of controlled breeding with apostles and human women.

The apostles weren't breeding with the women, though. The women were already pregnant and when put through the artificial beherit, the fetuses were corrupted and became the daka.
 
Chrono said:
I know that the Trolls weren't exactly apostles, but they were able to breed with human women...

This was previously mentioned in the first post. :casca:
The problem here is that Troll's didn't originate from human's, the apostles on the other hand were once human. (I don't recall any exceptions) Another interesting question would be whether or not apostles can breed with other apostles? :carcus:
Unfortunately I don't think there's enough information to even properly speculate on that one.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Chrono said:
I know that the Trolls weren't exactly apostles, but they were able to breed with human women...

Trolls aren't apostles at all. No relation. And from what we see of it, the way they reproduced wasn't in the traditional sense either. It seems that they injected the women with several troll embryos who then rapidly grew, only to erupt while killing the host. It's more like the way some insects reproduce than anything else. Parasitic.

Ramen4ever said:
Another interesting question would be whether or not apostles can breed with other apostles? :carcus:
Unfortunately I don't think there's enough information to even properly speculate on that one.

Yeah, indeed.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
For lack of a smoking gun or something conclusive, and the Ganishka example suggesting it's possible, I believe the conservative stance is there's no evidence they can't breed.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
the Ganishka example suggesting it's possible

Not that I'm bent on mitigating the possibility, but regarding Ganishka, I still think his little speech doesn't necessarily mean much. See what he thinks to himself after discovering that she's tied to Griffith and losing all interest in having his way with her for example:

"It was a simple task to take this nation, without a king, over but I was getting bored of war. I had thought it would be a simple entertainment to get my hands on that girl..."

It's not hard to put this together with the fact Ganishka's actions didn't really match his words to the princess (putting an end to war without further bloodshed, etc.) and to conclude that he wasn't too serious about it.

But to go back to the general issue, like SlimJ87D said it could be either way without having much of an impact on the story.
 
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