Author Topic: Episode 301  (Read 54275 times)

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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2008, 08:59:06 PM »
As much as I love the bastard, I can't honestly see Griffith 'redeemed' or being sympathetic again until.. probably near the end of manga? :/ 
http://www.freewebs.com/xyrp/griffredeemed.html
Now is as good a time as any to show off another new emoticon then:  :griffnotevil: . Griff isn't evil at all! Just the opposite!
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline deathbybears

Re: Episode 301
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2008, 09:15:40 PM »
 :griffnotevil: reminds me of subtract the hat, add the halo.

Offline flagawax

Re: Episode 301
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2008, 08:51:54 AM »
:griffnotevil: reminds me of http://www.crystalradio.net/oatbox/newquickoats.jpg subtract the hat, add the halo.

Thanks Scanbot ....

... so hilarious deathbybears .... .... :ganishka:......

...great episode .... with soldiers monster rider .... like pony ....
FORCE ET HONNEUR

Offline ironman

Re: Episode 301
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2008, 10:07:51 AM »
Wolves live in packs most of the time.

So? Does that mean the wolf like body of Irvine doesn't represent the lone wolf aspect?

Lone wolves exist surely in the minority. But they have occupied a significant place in our fantasies, poems and whatnot. And evidently they have inspired Miura's design of irvine.

Irvine has worked with others (as part of pack?), like on the rooftop against the mist form of ganishka at his stronghold. But he possesses traits which inarguably mark him out as very different from other, more sociable characters. He is considerably less social. It has been emphasized that he likes to spend time alone.

And nothing represents a 'lone' character better than that special variety of wolf - the 'lone wolf.'

As for the big game animal, if you type on google, "big game animal" you'll come across a few big game animals that resemble the horns which form the bow of Irvine's apostle form. Most likely inspiration was derived from a big game animal, so in this regard I don't think we should be so rigid so as to point to 'the name of a specific big game animal'.

The 'eye' obviously is not a part of either of the two types of animals I've mentioned. Who knows whether that's goat fur on the body of the 'irvine' half.

I was just pointing out the two features that are clearly symbolic. My intention wasn't to assert that only two creatures comprise of irvine's apostle form.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2008, 02:29:27 PM »
So? Does that mean the wolf like body of Irvine doesn't represent the lone wolf aspect?

The legs are wolf-like but I'm not sure about the trunk (looks a bit like a elk's to me). And well, yeah, I'm doubting the fact they're supposed to represent his "lone hunter" aspect more than the rest of his being. They're not exactly his main features. It's a nice little connexion, but it wasn't necessarily intended, nor is it, in my opinion, particularly relevant.

Lone wolves exist surely in the minority. But they have occupied a significant place in our fantasies, poems and whatnot. And evidently they have inspired Miura's design of irvine.

Evidently says who? "Lone wolf" is an idiomatic expression, and it doesn't relate to physically looking like a wolf. Which is what you're doing here: trying to connect the two.

But if you want to go that way, I sure can. Irvine's an archer (that's what defines him, more than anything else); how was his design evidently inspired by a wolf again? And his loner type personality isn't uncharacteristic of a typical woodsman. Furthermore, archers make good hunters by definition (long range weapon), and hunting in the woods in the context of the Berserk world can easily be envisioned as a solitary activity (especially if it involves tracking a prey and lying in wait, like he mentioned in episode 258). It goes full circle. Of course, his apostle form has wolf-like parts on it, but that could just be so that he can run fast and move agilely (while differentiating him from previously encountered hoofed monsters), and it also features other animals that are all fitting with his outdoorsman status.

Irvine has worked with others (as part of pack?), like on the rooftop against the mist form of ganishka at his stronghold. But he possesses traits which inarguably mark him out as very different from other, more sociable characters. He is considerably less social. It has been emphasized that he likes to spend time alone.

He leads the archers in Griffith's army, that's all. I don't see the need to force a comparison to a wolf pack here. Or are you truly insisting that Irvine's whole character is modeled on a wolf, and not just that as a loner, he can be called a lone wolf? Anyway, yeah, aren't apostles known for their sociability! :zodd:

And nothing represents a 'lone' character better than that special variety of wolf - the 'lone wolf.'

Right, but Irvine's design doesn't seem particularly wolf-like. You're pushing a connexion (loner = lone wolf) on a detail here (wolf-like parts on his apostle form).

As for the big game animal, if you type on google, "big game animal" you'll come across a few big game animals that resemble the horns which form the bow of Irvine's apostle form. Most likely inspiration was derived from a big game animal, so in this regard I don't think we should be so rigid so as to point to 'the name of a specific big game animal'.

Sorry, I'm afraid that won't do. You quoted what I said and contradicted it (felt like it to me, at least), so I do think a specific name would be needed in order for your first remark to have any value. Just like you gave the name of the wolf when it could theorically be any canidae (is Irvine based on a coyote?! :isidro:). Until then, I'll stick to what I said, which is that Irvine's design isn't inspired by one particular animal but rather by all those that inhabit the environments he affectionates. The horns, the tail, the shape of the head... They don't fit together, even if you count aside the rest as wolf-like.

The 'eye' obviously is not a part of either of the two types of animals I've mentioned. Who knows whether that's goat fur on the body of the 'irvine' half.

The fur (on the four legged body, the head, and on the humanoid torso) could be from any animal really. Or none at all (doesn't have to be inspired by a specific animal).

I was just pointing out the two features that are clearly symbolic. My intention wasn't to assert that only two creatures comprise of irvine's apostle form.

Well, I thought you meant that, so OK on that point. About the symbolism, like I said earlier, I don't think the wolf-like parts are necessarily to be connected to his loner personality more than the others. To me, his apostle form in itself (all of its different parts) is a reference to a whole habitat and the life that goes with it.

So I don't think we really disagree with each other, but my approach is a little more global.

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2008, 04:22:48 PM »
I find it kinda funny that Miura would put any prey animal parts on Irvine considering he is a hunter, you'd think his body would be all predator, well I guess he'd need some way to fire projectiles.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2008, 06:28:04 PM »
I find it kinda funny that Miura would put any prey animal parts on Irvine considering he is a hunter, you'd think his body would be all predator, well I guess he'd need some way to fire projectiles.

Zodd has horns and hoofs on him as well you know. :zodd:

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2008, 07:03:14 PM »
Zodd has horns and hoofs on him as well you know. :zodd:

Yeah but he's a clear comparison to a minotaur, whereas Irvine is more of Miura's own creation with parts reminiscent of multiple wild animals.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2008, 07:16:12 PM »
Yeah but he's a clear comparison to a minotaur, whereas Irvine is more of Miura's own creation with parts reminiscent of multiple wild animals.

I didn't know the Minotaur had a lion head and lion paws, bat wings and a long, thick and powerful tail. :zodd:

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2008, 07:25:52 PM »
I didn't know the Minotaur had a lion head and lion paws, bat wings and a long, thick and powerful tail. :zodd:

Well I was going to mention the lions head, but if you must be so difficult I'll just say he's the bastard child of a manticore and a minotaur, its still not hard to see the resemblance, jeez.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2008, 07:30:02 PM »
Well I was going to mention the lions head, but if you must be so difficult I'll just say he's the bastard child of a manticore and a minotaur, its still not hard to see the resemblance, jeez.

I wouldn't bring a manticore into this if I were you, really. Anyway, the point is just that both feature parts from different animals. And if you compare Zodd to the Minotaur, then Irvine might as well be compared to a satyr or a faun. The horns, the hair, the tail... Even the affinity with the wilderness fits.

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2008, 07:42:01 PM »
I wouldn't bring a manticore into this if I were you, really. Anyway, the point is just that both feature parts from different animals. And if you compare Zodd to the Minotaur, then Irvine might as well be compared to a satyr or a faun. The horns, the hair, the tail... Even the affinity with the wilderness fits.

Well a satyr is half goat and half man, Irvine on the otherhand is attached to some creature that resembles a part wolf and part elk with one eye, and he himself is covered all in fur, his design is a lot more complicated then a satyr and the resemblance imo is a much bigger stretch then Zodd to a minotaur and a manticore.


manticore: http://www.manticore.nu/img/div/manticore.jpg

+ minotaur= Zodd, don't you think?

http://fantasymenagerie.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/minotaur.jpg
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:53:26 PM by Guts' intestines »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2008, 07:57:34 PM »
Well a satyr is half goat and half man

No, it's not as simple as that. They traditionally have a horse tail, for one thing. Fauns are the ones that are goat-like.

he himself is covered all in fur

He's not "all" covered in fur. Anyway what's the point here? I'm not saying he's exactly like a satyr or a faun; obviously there are major differences. It's just what his figure reminds me of (satyr, faun, or even Pan himself). And there are differences between Zodd and the Minotaur as well. In any case, the original point was that both feature parts from non-predators.

the resemblance imo is a much bigger stretch then Zodd to a minotaur and a manticore.

No, it's not. Relating Zodd to a manticore really is quite a stretch to me. And the only actual physical similarities between Zodd and the Minotaur are the horns and hoofs (though in the original myth he has feet) anyway, which all things considered really aren't much. Now, I agree that their general shapes are alike, but your point was about body parts and not the general feel of the creature. If you want to argue that Zodd looks like a predator in spite of his horns and hoofs, then let me ask you: isn't the same true of Irvine?

manticore:
+ minotaur:

Those pictures aren't faithful to the creatures' actual depictions in myths and therefore I don't think they're very relevant (especially in the case of the manticore). Please don't make me quote descriptions and post pictures... :schierke:

Offline Guts' intestines

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2008, 08:21:00 PM »
No, it's not as simple as that. They traditionally have a horse tail, for one thing. Fauns are the ones that are goat-like.

He's not "all" covered in fur. Anyway what's the point here? I'm not saying he's exactly like a satyr or a faun; obviously there are major differences. It's just what his figure reminds me of (satyr, faun, or even Pan himself). And there are differences between Zodd and the Minotaur as well. In any case, the original point was that both feature parts from non-predators.

No, it's not. Relating Zodd to a manticore really is quite a stretch to me. And the only actual physical similarities between Zodd and the Minotaur are the horns and hoofs (though in the original myth he has feet) anyway, which all things considered really aren't much. Now, I agree that their general shapes are alike, but your point was about body parts and not the general feel of the creature. If you want to argue that Zodd looks like a predator in spite of his horns and hoofs, then let me ask you: isn't the same true of Irvine?

Those pictures aren't faithful to the creatures' actual depictions in myths and therefore I don't think they're very relevant (especially in the case of the manticore). Please don't make me quote descriptions and post pictures... :schierke:

Satyrs are usually (there are variations of all these creatures you know) described as half man, half goat who are lecherous and run around raping people, truth be told I've never heard of them having a horses tail, even so I haven't seen a goats tail on Irvine.  Zodd looks a lot like a manticore and a minotaur, now I know you're going off the busted ass manticore with the ugly ass human head and the deformed neck and body, however this is just one acceptable variation just as their are one's that look more dragonlike.  Bottomline is that there are many of them like this: http://grenierduroliste.online.fr/images/manticore.jpg

same thing as the minotaur, these are all common day depictions of them and going off of these you can see where Miura drew some inspiration, besides its not like he's an ancient greek who'd have only seen the older depictions of these monsters, no, just as I showed you one of these he could have seen similar pictures.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2008, 08:52:12 PM »
Satyrs are usually (there are variations of all these creatures you know) described as half man, half goat who are lecherous and run around raping people, truth be told I've never heard of them having a horses tail, even so I haven't seen a goats tail on Irvine.

Well I guess this shows how unfamiliar you are with the subject.

Zodd looks a lot like a manticore and a minotaur, now I know you're going off the busted ass manticore with the ugly ass human head and the deformed neck and body, however this is just one acceptable variation just as their are one's that look more dragonlike.

I'm just talking about the traditional definition of the beast, the one you can find in dictionaries: "A composite beast with a man's face, a lion's body, and the stinger of a scorpion". It's not just one accepted variation. There are indeed small variations, but the one you're so taken with has appeared very recently (and diverges a lot from the classical figure), so much in fact that I'm not even sure it predates Zodd's first appearance...

same thing as the minotaur, these are all common day depictions of them and going off of these you can see where Miura drew some inspiration, besides its not like he's an ancient greek who'd have only seen the older depictions of these monsters

The Minotaur was defined as a monster with the body of a man and the head and tail of a bull. That's all. Miura draws inspiration from traditional myths and legends (and he uses reference works for that), and if we're to consider that he took inspiration from one of them, then the classical depiction is the only authoritative reference we can use unless told otherwise, as opposed to some deviantart picture from last month. Miura might not be an ancient Greek, but when Zodd was created you weren't even out of the crib yet, so please don't be too presumptuous. :void:

Anyway, this discussion is getting off-topic and I can't help but feel that you're arguing in bad faith here. Maybe Zodd's design was inspired by a Manticore (only Miura knows), but I really don't think so. And regardless of what they comes from, the fact remains that Zodd himself has features that aren't from a natural predator. So do a lot of other apostles as well. Honestly, I don't think it means much given that they're monsters. As for Irvine, like I had said just before you posted, I personally believe that his apostle form represents a whole habitat and the life that goes with it. It shows him as the ultimate outdoorsman.

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2008, 08:52:28 PM »
Are you sure about that? :beast:


Whoa, how on earth did I forget that part of her transformation? Well her "human" form wasn't very menacing I guess. Anyway that brings up an interesting question. Why do some apostles retain their original human looks before transforming, and other do not? Roshinu is definitely an elf-type when not transformed, but say the Snail Count, looked completely the same.

Quote
Why do you doubt that he'll appear in Skellig?

It actually makes a lot of sense for him to show up, and I could picture it, but then it'd raise the question of how the hell he got there and why wouldn't he have taken Guts and Co. with him. Perhaps his horse can actually fly him across the ocean, or his new magical sword can cut through space and time and teleport him places.

I suppose I imagined him staying to watch the world's merge and look for opportunities to kill some apostles.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2008, 09:04:16 PM »
Anyway that brings up an interesting question. Why do some apostles retain their original human looks before transforming, and other do not? Roshinu is definitely an elf-type when not transformed, but say the Snail Count, looked completely the same.

Hmm, well Rosine had an intermediary level of transformation as well, so that complicates things... And the Count (Who I think, after all those years, that we maybe should finally call a slug and not a snail anymore... Especially since an actual snail-like apostle showed up in this episode) didn't really look the same. He was a lot fatter and his flesh seemed a lot less firm, somehow. He had pointy ears as well and this strange look in his eyes (and a sinister look about him in general). Basically he had changed, even though he still looked more human than some other apostles.

 

It actually makes a lot of sense for him to show up, and I could picture it, but then it'd raise the question of how the hell he got there and why wouldn't he have taken Guts and Co. with him. Perhaps his horse can actually fly him across the ocean, or his new magical sword can cut through space and time and teleport him places.

It's just like you said: his horse has magical properties and if he really wanted to, he could simply use his sword. Or maybe we'll find out there's some other secret means of traveling there only he knows of and only he can use, who knows.

I suppose I imagined him staying to watch the world's merge and look for opportunities to kill some apostles.

Hmm, somehow I don't think it'd be a good idea to try to kill some lame apostles while the shit's hitting the fan. Especially considering their numbers. And it would be of little use in the end I think. Given the current situation and the future it spells out, it might be better to wait and strike directly at the top! :SK:

Offline deathbybears

Re: Episode 301
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2008, 09:34:48 PM »
He had pointy ears as well and this strange look in his eyes (and a sinister look about him in general). Basically he had changed, even though he still looked more human than some other apostles.

 


He never completely let go of his daughter, maybe it was intentional.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2008, 06:06:24 PM »

How are the apostles losing by the way? Anyone remember how injured Wyald was after fighting Guts, and he just kept moving. I thought the only way to really harm an apostle was to rip their body to shreds, or leave nothing left of their head.

Why do you think they are losing? It didn't seem clear that either side was winning or losing, but I would assume Griffith's side to be slowly making progress.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #119 on: December 18, 2008, 03:20:53 AM »
Why do you think they are losing? It didn't seem clear that either side was winning or losing, but I would assume Griffith's side to be slowly making progress.

I'd rather say that Griffith's side is doing pretty good compare to the chibishkas from what we've seen so far. A few (lot?) human casualties but apostles so far like Aaz said we've only seen one dead and a few wounded (didn't really look like important damage also) so I'd say Griffith's side has the advantage so far (if we don't count the towering Ganishka which he'll probably get his ass kick somehow).

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #120 on: December 18, 2008, 03:27:26 AM »
I think Griffith is keeping Ganishka busy with his shiny hawk of light aura until the humans and Apostles can take care of the Chibiska's. Then after that it will be time for Daddy to take the stage.  :griff:
"Plenty of time to sleep when you're dead!"

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #121 on: December 18, 2008, 03:27:56 AM »
Why do you think they are losing? It didn't seem clear that either side was winning or losing, but I would assume Griffith's side to be slowly making progress.
From Episode 300:

Quote
Page 11
Griffith:     Inform all troops.
Griffith:     The demon soldiers may be strong, but they can't possibly fend off all the enemies.
I believe this is what Okin was referring to. The apostles are mowing through the Chibishkas, but there are too many.
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #122 on: December 18, 2008, 06:00:38 AM »
The apostles are mowing through the Chibishkas, but there are too many.

Ganishka left a lot of bloody footprints. :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #123 on: December 18, 2008, 10:14:58 AM »
He never completely let go of his daughter, maybe it was intentional.

I'm not sure he had the choice.

Why do you think they are losing? It didn't seem clear that either side was winning or losing, but I would assume Griffith's side to be slowly making progress.

Like jackson_hurley said, I think Griffith's side is evidently winning. The monsters Ganishka spawned are being decimated, though I guess they're putting up a better fight than anything else has before.

Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 301
« Reply #124 on: December 18, 2008, 02:48:23 PM »
though I guess they're putting up a better fight than anything else has before.

Exactly. Especially when we saw the fight start with just the apostles it was also just the first wave or the beginning of the front line so we couldn't know for sure how many and how strong they were so it's normal to assume they put a better fight I think.

Anyways we know they're gonna win because Griffith is leading them and I have faith he'll win hehe. :griffnotevil: