Apostle nature/evil and the small 5 in comparison to the weaker apostles.

With the recent developments in the manga and the various speculation about how the apostles will end up staying true to their "nature" I came upon a strange thought and would be thrilled to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter. I searched through quite a few threads about apostles but I didn't find anything dedicated this topic.

Throughout the manga there are numerous references to the degree of an apostle's power in relation to how much evil they received when they became apostles.
Ganishka boasts about it to Locus
getting overconfident with the small amount of evil you received into your body. Feel the true power.
and his new transformation also appears to be a cause of him forcing more evil into himself,
...How much evil does he have residing within his body... No, the Lord Emperor himself is now the evil world itself!!
- as usual a thank you to the translators at sk.net -

Now the issue isn't with Ganishka but actually with Griffith's commanders, or more specifically the strongest members of his new Band of the Hawk. We know that Locus, Grunberd, Zodd, Rakshas and Irvine are all incredibly powerful. Wouldn't this imply that they should all actually be the most evil in Griffith's army (Griffith naturally excluded)? Yet when it comes to which apostles are most regularly doing evil things, it's usually the cannon fodder. The weaker apostles are the ones that eat and rape humans and do the things that we would normally consider evil. Grunberd and Locus on the other hand have demonstrated that they are fully capable of interacting with humans on a normal level. We don't really see what Rakshas does. And from the few scenes we've scene of Irvine, he seems to be a relatively normal person (his interaction with Sonia). I would assume that if Sonia had fallen asleep beside normal apostles she probably would have been raped and eaten. As for Zodd well for now I'll just exclude him because most humans that have come face to face with him were probably going :isidro: "Holy Sh!t! that man has no eyebrows" Okay bad joke. But apart from Mule and Sonia I don't recall him ever really coming face to face with someone that he didn't kill. (Guts and co excluded)

Considering that these apostles are supposed to be the most evil from the Band of the Hawk, why is it that they commit the least amount of evil acts? We don't see them raping people or even eating human flesh. Is it possible that the other apostles are just a more primitive type of evil? Or is the standard definition of evil not appropriate. If we consider how the Idea of Evil came into being and that it all starts with the negative and darker feelings within humans, should we actually consider the more "human" apostles more evil then the other ones?


Your thoughts?

Note* by small 5, I mean Zodd, Grunberd, Locus, Rakshas and Irvine.* The big 5 are obviously the five members of the God Hand.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
If you're trying to quantify apostle strength by the amount of depraved acts they do, I don't think your line of reasoning will pan out.
 
Walter said:
If you're trying to quantify apostle strength by the amount of depraved acts they do, I don't think your line of reasoning will pan out.

I have no interest in "strength". I'm just trying to figure out why it is that those 5 particular apostles are the most "human" like? Just what is an apostles nature? And if there's a connection between their conduct and how much evil they received when they became apostles.
 
Shadax said:
Isn't this just a translation issue with the word "evil" and taking it to literally?

I guess it could be. I'm still interested to know what people think apostle nature is. And/or why the small 5 are at this moment still very different in conduct and behavior from the typical apostle? The whole "evil" thing was an attempt to track down the source. It might actually be as simple as the corruption of their desire or the corruption of their most prominent characteristics. Though I believe it to be more complex.

I might be taking the word too literally but I believe the Idea of Evil's and Slan's comments were pretty straight forward. They are describing evil and/or darker emotions and feelings and they both emphasize that it is human. Or to put it simply, evil is a part of human nature. The word(s) you use to describe it won't change the fact that apostles accept these aspects into their being when they become apostles. At first I thought that the quantity was unimportant but with Ganishka's latest transformation you can't help but wonder if there's more to it. His physical state was not the only thing that changed after all.
 

IgnusDei

mmh-hmm good.
it's also possible Slan and Idea's comments may have concerned the emotions, not the power.

or maybe not. Care to quote them in context?
 
IgnusDei said:
it's also possible Slan and Idea's comments may have concerned the emotions, not the power.

or maybe not. Care to quote them in context?

You may have misread my previous post. The Idea of Evil and Slan's comments concern emotions, yes.. but they also concern human nature. However it might not be a good idea to just label it as emotions in the general sense of the word. After all, the Idea of Evil did come into existence from these collective dark feelings.
As for power.. I was referring to Ganishka and Daiba's words, not the Idea's or Slans.
Here are the quotes you requested.

Idea of Evil:
You know that this place is terribly human
Violence and loneliness
This place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings
It is truly the will that defines human nature

Some more from Idea but this is more important in regards to how it came into existence.
An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
I was born from these swells
As the ego of this world
This world itself is I
The darkness that dwells in every human heart
The Idea of Evil
This is God

Slan's comments during the eclipse. If I recall correctly this occurs when Femto is doing Casca in front of Guts.
Slann: So beautiful....
These feelings that draw near
Love, Hate, Pain, Pleasure, Life, Death. Everything is there...
This is so Human.
This is so Demonic.

Ganishka:
Useless
Futile!
Undersized creatures, getting overconfident with the small amount of evil you received into your body. Feel the true power.
Silat - Demon King....no. The power of the Demon god.....

And some more from Ganishka and Daiba
I... I have gained
Ganishka: I reached the abyss of the evil world, and have gained
Ganishka: Power...
Ganishka: The power of...
. . .
Daiba: ...How much evil does he have residing within his body... No, the Lord Emperor himself is now the evil world itself!! It's overflowing... The evil world is overflowing...!!

A little something from Ubik and Conrad in volume 3.
Ubik: And since this is an offering to evil…
Ubik: …it has been decided that he has to be one of your own and you have to cut him of personally.
Conrad: Evil flows into the crack and will grow in its heart.

Thank you, translators of Sk.net.

edit. Walter actually touched on this topic in this post:
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=8451.msg143028#msg143028
 
The best way to see this to me is to consider what the lyrics of the song Fallen by FRANZ FERDINAND mean, in this case, it's this part: "The fallen are the virtuous among us."
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Badass mode ash said:
The best way to see this to me is to consider what the lyrics of the song Fallen by FRANZ FERDINAND mean, in this case, it's this part: "The fallen are the virtuous among us."
Yeah, can you please break down that artistic message for us non-hipsters, and how it applies to Berserk? :void:
 
Walter said:
Yeah, can you please break down that artistic message for us non-hipsters, and how it applies to Berserk? :void:

Those who can handle the most evil in being the most evil without taking away their identity in who they are do so because they aren't weak like so many others.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Badass mode ash said:
Those who can handle the most evil in being the most evil without taking away their identity in who they are do so because they aren't weak like so many others.
That doesn't really explain anything.
 
I can't say I fully understand what your saying Ash. Were you trying to describe that the people who were already evil, could handle becoming more evil without their self identity being disrupted .. because they were strong? (mentally)
 
Ramen4ever said:
I can't say I fully understand what your saying Ash. Were you trying to describe that the people who were already evil, could handle becoming more evil without their self identity being disrupted .. because they were strong? (mentally)

I was thinking of as them knowing themselves enough that they aren't slaves to their lower impulses, just because a person is more in touch with who they are, that doesn't make them saints, nor does it mean that they can't enjoy giving in to their darker sides. It just means that they can do so in a more controlled manner than lesser apostles.

That's why I was using those lyrics, the fallen are the virtuous among us, to me this is because those who are fallen are more honest about who they are, what's around them, and what they want. Those apostles have more set goals/characters than others, something that allows them to hold onto themselves without becoming total beasts like others; they don't lose themselves in what they've become.
 
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