Movies to dread

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
NightCrawler said:
I'll go as far as to say no sequels were needed, not even T2, since it basically ignores all the rules the first one set up. It's just a better action movie because Cameron rules in that department, but Terminator is still king.

Terminator hasn't aged well. As much as I like it, T2 is superior and a more than valuable addition. That aside, there are so many terrible things in this new movie that I don't even want to start on it.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
For what it's worth, my old man, who educated me in the ways of Terminator as a young boy, hated Terminator 2 because it took liberties with the mythology of the first, which was basically his favorite movie (and because I think he had a little crush on sweet 1984 Linda Hamilton and hated what they turned her into :iva:). He thought of the "other termintor" going back and liquid metal what we think of the cheesy BS in this trailer, basically shitting all over the original. The difference? He was wrong and Terminator 2 is still one of the coolest movies ever, just as I and all the other boys at school knew back in 1991.
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Aazealh said:
Terminator hasn't aged well. As much as I like it, T2 is superior and a more than valuable addition. That aside, there are so many terrible things in this new movie that I don't even want to start on it.

I disagree.
Rewatching T2 i couldn't get over how time-specific the dialogue was to the early 90s. All those cute, catchphrases of that time that don't hold up today (Hasta la vista, baby vs the original's I'll be back). But T1 was smart by being more economical, limiting the dialogue and letting the characters sound more natural, reactive and in the moment. T2 felt staged and was presented as any old summer action movie. But worked so well and was so accessible to a wider audience that it changed Cameron's career (it's still his 3rd best and last great movie).
T1's leaner storytelling, the suggestions of a larger mythology while still remaining subtle, the compact cyclical narrative that actually works, the chemistry between the protagonists. It's just so much more cohesive and tonally sharp than T2, which remains bloated and preachy (can't stand the voiceover).
Also, the stop-motion effects on the T-800 have held up way better and remain more menacing and awe-inspiring than the early CGI used on the T-1000.
It's kind of an Alien versus Aliens argument. One is a much better genre film and the next is a balls to the wall action movie. It's a matter of preference i guess, and for me Alien and T1 win every time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68I3j2luW64 - forever chilling
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
NightCrawler said:
I disagree.
Rewatching T2 i couldn't get over how time-specific the dialogue was to the early 90s. All those cute, catchphrases of that time that don't hold up today (Hasta la vista, baby vs the original's I'll be back). But T1 was smart by being more economical, limiting the dialogue and letting the characters sound more natural, reactive and in the moment. T2 felt staged and was presented as any old summer action movie. But worked so well and was so accessible to a wider audience that it changed Cameron's career (it's still his 3rd best and last great movie).
T1's leaner storytelling, the suggestions of a larger mythology while still remaining subtle, the compact cyclical narrative that actually works, the chemistry between the protagonists. It's just so much more cohesive and tonally sharp than T2, which remains bloated and preachy (can't stand the voiceover).
Also, the stop-motion effects on the T-800 have held up way better and remain more menacing and awe-inspiring than the early CGI used on the T-1000.
It's kind of an Alien versus Aliens argument. One is a much better genre film and the next is a balls to the wall action movie. It's a matter of preference i guess, and for me Alien and T1 win every time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this I think. While I appreciate what T1 did (and I still do think it's great), I really do believe it's showing its age, much more so than T2. I also find your analysis of T2 excessively critical in comparison (although I kinda agree on the catchphrases), but like you say, maybe it's just a matter of preference. And for the record, while I do love Aliens and I think it's a work of genius, Alien is the better film to me.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Terminator is just a dumb 80's action movie with dated special effects and a story ripped off Outer Limits and it's actually kinda boring (like Alien).

That sensation you're feeling is what your doing to T2 and Aliens, Nightcrawler! And I have to disagree with about T2's dependency on the era (what are you talking about?), especially the dialogue. If a movie accurately reflects its time without simply exploiting current events/trends, that's a good thing, and "hasta la vista, baby" wasn't previously some popular catchphrase T2 tapped into for cheap relevancy, it's what popularized it in the first place. You might as well say the same about "I'll be back" or "Dont have a cow, man." Also, what T2 lacks in substance (and its not bad there in and of itself) it more than makes up for in style. I don't fault the filmmakers for creating some of the most memorable moments and iconic villains in movie history because liquid metal doesn't make sense. Also, you keep saying T2 and Aliens are just "great action movies", mitigating their flaws, as if they're otherwise substantially lacking compared to their predecessors in terms of story, drama, or character. I don't think that's the case at all, you could take all the action set pieces out of those films and they'd still stand up in those other categories. Actually, they'd be Alien and Terminator for the most part, except the drama they use to effectively enhance the suspense in those movies instead serves the action. That's what makes them seem like such superior action movies; not because more shit is happening on screen, but because it's more significant than Rambo or even Die Hard (let's stir the pot some more =). Anyway, I don't believe they're objectively worse in thosec elements (especially Aliens, Sigourney Weaver got freakin' nominated for that role), or that they're worse for being more action oriented than suspenseful or tragic. That's just a preference for one genre over another as you mentioned. So, fuck this revisionist history: Aliens and T2 are great movies, not just great action movies, and that they're both is what makes them so special and arguably better than the originals (an argument few sequels to successful movies can make at all, let alone following classics).
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Sheesh what a topic. Which top-tier, genre- defining, action-sci-fi film is better?! I could also write a big brick of text over this discussion. And while I'm waiting for my pizza to be ready, I will!

Both are fucking phenomenal in their own rights, so I see little point in arguing. My personal experience: I saw Terminator 2 when I was 10 years old. I didn't see the first one until years later. T2 left a big impression on me, and it's still one of my favorite movies. While it's not too hard to point out its flaws, I can scarcely think of a movie of similar caliber in the past 2-3 decades.

For Terminator 1, I'm in love with the concept more than the execution. The idea of a guy from the future scrappily evading a human killing machine, and the slow reveal of the world that he comes from, it's all still very compelling. But the details suffer. T2 glows by comparison in that department,
but I agree with Nighty that it's not nearly as focused.

Cameron tries to grab so many balls all at once, in a very dense, set piece-heavy film. Not all of those attempts are succesful. I also think Hamilton's narrations come across as heavy handed, likely a result of her delivery. But-

Pizza!!

PS: Did The mental health industry ever recover from that one gross guy in Terminator 2 licking Linda Hamilton cheek?

Tap out the theme from Terminator with your fingers. Now tap out the Mario world 1-1 theme.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
Sheesh what a topic. Which top-tier, genre- defining, action-sci-fi film is better?! I could also write a big brick of text over this discussion.

Reminds me of my wife's observation that I seem to be incredibly passionate about only completely trivial bullshit. What can I say? She knows me better than anyone. :griffnotevil:

Walter said:
Both are fucking phenomenal in their own rights, so I see little point in arguing.

I don't see the point either, but particularly in nitpicking T2 or Aliens in the name of honoring Terminator and Alien; that they had such great sequels only bolsters their status, and it's not some horrible misnomer or miscarriage of justice to like those sequels better.

If this turns out to really be about Prometheus not being so bad again I'm going to lose it. :guts:

Walter said:
T2 left a big impression on me, and it's still one of my favorite movies. While it's not too hard to point out its flaws, I can scarcely think of a movie of similar caliber in the past 2-3 decades.
Walter said:
Cameron tries to grab so many balls all at once, in a very dense, set piece-heavy film. Not all of those attempts are succesful. I also think Hamilton's narrations come across as heavy handed, likely a result of her delivery. But-

I feel the same way about T2, but Hamilton's narration didn't bug me, but only because it's so ineffectual it had no bearing on my experience, it was just there like that last highway shot at the end (I didn't consider how lame it was until you guys mentioned it). Other than that though, holy shit, it still blows me away. And I don't mind it's highfalutin faults so much (it's not like it's the Matrix: Reloaded), it's still pretty simple and to the point, and the payoffs are incredible. Plus, to me T2 represents something bigger than itself, it's the end of an era, the commencement of the 80's no holds barred high concept R-rated action movies and the bridge to modern action movies to come in the 90's and beyond that it so clearly influenced with mixed results. The list is basically Terminator, Aliens, Predator, Robocop and Terminator 2, full circle ("Goodbye, John. I have to go away now"). Or if you want to lower the action threshold and expand it to include such classics as Alien, Road Warrior, Blade Runner and The Thing, let's just call it Tech Noir. :SK:

Anyway, they just don't make 'em like that anymore. :azan: :daiba:

Walter said:
PS: Did The mental health industry ever recover from that one gross guy in Terminator 2 licking Linda Hamilton cheek?

Jesus, and that creep Dr. Silverman! Hmmm, I wonder if this is why I have an aversion to any sort of formal therapy...

Actually, to be fair to Silverman, he might have been completely reasonable... but he was a stupid asshole that was wrong about the killer robots and was keeping John Conner away from his mother! And, yeah, his staff were all a bunch of creeps that needed to be thrown through windows without sympathy. And people would question the writing quality of this film?

Walter said:
Tap out the theme from Terminator with your fingers. Now tap out the Mario world 1-1 theme.

:ganishka:
 

Deci

Avatar by supereva01 @ DA
The casting choices certainly could have been done better for sure, John and Sara Connor's actors are uninteresting at best, however I do like the change in the T-1000. No one except Michael Biehn can play Kyle Reese in my mind, he is as Arnold is to the T-800 in my mind. Possibly my favorite 80's action hero, now that I think about it. That will be a flaw in the movie for me no matter how good I think the rest might be. The title GENISYS annoys me, it's like the didn't learn from McG in that regard, or do people like crap like that? As a movie I think it has enough potential to give it a shot. II guess people really must not go back and watch the classics like they used to, to be able to redo so many unnecessarily.

While I think Terminator 1 and 2 survived the times and do not need to be retold in any fashion whatsoever, I don't think I am willing to dismiss this movie on the trailer. For one, too many times they turn out to be not at all reflective of the finished product in almost any fashion, from CG work and dialogue, to entire scenes being reshot or deleted. I like the mashing of movies idea, and I'm interested to see how they manipulate the original story and deviate from the main continuity. I'll wait until I learn more or see this one to judge too much more.

A small part of me wants to be angry with Arnold if it turns out bad, he could have said no and the popularity would've dropped significantly, if the movie would have happened at all.
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
By trying to prove a point i came across (as Aaz said) excessively critical of T2. But i still said it was his 3rd best movie. And Terminator isn't number one, it's Aliens (for me the best action movie of all time). So it's not like i don't love all of these movies equally. Prometheus shouldn't be in this conversation, these are all top-tier movies, but T2 does fall behind a bit compared to the rest. You can't deny that the almost interminable second act that has Arnold being turned into a catchphrase machine by Furlong to be quite annoying. I just love how focused and briskly paced the original is in comparison.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
NightCrawler said:
By trying to prove a point i came across (as Aaz said) excessively critical of T2.

Well, any excuse to overthink and write way too much about classic Terminator and Alien movies is fine by me.

NightCrawler said:
But i still said it was his 3rd best movie.

You mean after Avatar and Titanic!? :troll: There are people out there that actually see it that way, and sadly they're probably professional populist film critics.

NightCrawler said:
And Terminator isn't number one, it's Aliens (for me the best action movie of all time). So it's not like i don't love all of these movies equally.

I have that order as well, honestly. T2's superpower is that it takes the concepts, action, and violence of the original and streamlines them into a totally accessible adventure movie that somehow felt important to everybody (like an R-rated Star Wars), so I forgive it its minor transgressions compared to the original in the service of this achievement. To put it another way, Terminator and Aliens are like Ride the Lighting and Master of Puppets, T2 is the Black Album for better or worse (even the years match =).

NightCrawler said:
Prometheus shouldn't be in this conversation, these are all top-tier movies

I just remember you once once defending Prometheus' characters by comparing them not unfavorably to Aliens and even Alien, which was just blasphemous. Again, like you said, you were probably just sounding critical of them to make a different point about Prometheus, but I haven't let that go.

NightCrawler said:
T2 does fall behind a bit compared to the rest. You can't deny that the almost interminable second act that has Arnold being turned into a catchphrase machine by Furlong to be quite annoying. I just love how focused and briskly paced the original is in comparison.

Chill out. Dickwad. I see what you mean, and my dad always saw it that way, but that was actually very appealing at the time and I still enjoy it today (if I've had a few glasses of wine it even gets a little dusty in the room when Arnold and John say goodbye, so I'd say it pays off =). I think everybody wanted their own terminator after that (though they've sure run that into the ground now), and at the time it also perfectly rectified Arnold's most iconic role with his otherwise heroic film persona to truly be his defining character. Also, like I said before, that was part of what made it very accessible and appealing and more human (and more ambitious thematically that way). More cheesy too of course, but that comes with the territory even in serious drama. Speaking of which, Arnold's best "dramatic" performance? Without giving it any serious consideration, I say yes!
 
Am I the only one who can't stand Avatar? Pocahontas in space didn't do much for me. I thought the special effects made it far more popular than anything else. :puck: When it came out I thought it like the original Gears of War. (Here come the stones) Pretty but no substance.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
bandofthehawk (Salem) said:
Am I the only one who can't stand Avatar? Pocahontas in space didn't do much for me. I thought the special effects made it far more popular than anything else. :puck: When it came out I thought it like the original Gears of War. (Here come the stones) Pretty but no substance.

Uh... no? That movie had a pretty solid backlash and referendum on it since it's heyday (and don't forget it's a ripoff of Dances With Wolves too). I don't think the effects helped it so much as the brilliant marketing built around the effects, the 3D, and its supposed immersiveness (Cameron was selling that point so effectively from day one that almost everybody bought it initially, credit to him). After all, not every effects movie is the highest grossing movie of all time.

Anyway, what's Cameron's #4 after T2? True Lies, The Abyss, Avatar, Piranha 2, that other movie on a boat (are we counting his writing on Rambo II)?
 
The exact angry words I used were "what a ripoff. That was dancing with Pocahontas." I had many people saying how cool it looked. Sorry dip shits, that might add to a movie but never makes it. I really enjoyed the Abyss, though I haven't watched it since vhs. Heard it would arrive on blu ray soon. True Lies was fun, but yet another I haven't watched in years. Never watched titanic all the way through and don't plan to.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
bandofthehawk (Salem) said:
Never watched titanic all the way through and don't plan to.

It's not easy to get through, and the first time I saw it I was supremely disappointed because I thought the running time indicated that Cameron, great technical director that he is, was going to show the ship sinking in real time. I was not expecting two hours of tepid romance novel preceding the iceberg.
 

Lithrael

Remember, always hold your apple tight
Yeah, Avatar was fun to look at but a total puff piece.

T2 was my favorite fucken thing ever when it came out. I was 14 and that movie was PERFECT. I must have watched it a hundred times. The badassery level of T2 Sarah Connor was everything I wanted in a movie as a lil 14 yr old girl. It was (and is) so rare to see a movie badass who wasn't even slightly vamped up. It's less perfect now but nothing can really dent how much I love it.

Loved Alien/s for again not vamping up the lady badasses. Come to think of it, Aliens and T2 both had that nice 1-2 punch of butch badass ladies and quietly badass androids.
 
Avatar reminded me of a Bollywood movie with the sappy happy ending.

T2's a movie you can watch every few days if it pops on TV, whether you're in the middle or the end or the beginning - it doesn't matter. Cameron did the same with Aliens, taking both science fiction-horror/ thriller franchises and adding an action-adventure angle to them which works commercially. For me, Alien > Aliens or everything in the franchise and T > T2 or everything in the franchise. All this talk has made me wanna marathon all Terminator movies, so that's part of this weekend's plan.

Griffith said:
To put it another way, Terminator and Aliens are like Ride the Lighting and Master of Puppets, T2 is the Black Album for better or worse (even the years match =).

Haha that's awesome observation. Kinda fits cos Ride The Lightning was their best album.
 

Johnstantine

Skibbidy Boo Bop
IncantatioN said:
T2's a movie you can watch every few days if it pops on TV, whether you're in the middle or the end or the beginning - it doesn't matter. Cameron did the same with Aliens, taking both science fiction-horror/ thriller franchises and adding an action-adventure angle to them which works commercially. For me, Alien > Aliens or everything in the franchise and T > T2 or everything in the franchise. All this talk has made me wanna marathon all Terminator movies, so that's part of this weekend's plan.

I could never compare Alien with Aliens. To me they're just two different movies in different genres.

I love them both equally.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
IncantatioN said:
For me, Alien > Aliens or everything in the franchise and T > T2 or everything in the franchise. All this talk has made me wanna marathon all Terminator movies, so that's part of this weekend's plan.

You mean Terminator and T2? Because as far as I'm concerned those are the only Terminator movies that exist (and didn't Cameron do some 3D short with the T2 cast for Universal studios?). And your example should be more like:
T1/Alien > T2/Aliens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else in the franchise(s).

IncantatioN said:
Haha that's awesome observation. Kinda fits cos Ride The Lightning was their best album.

Or at least the same taste applies when appreciating T1 and Ride the Lightning, even the parts that seem rough around the edges today.

Johnstantine said:
I could never compare Alien with Aliens. To me they're just two different movies in different genres.

I love them both equally.

I'm an Aliens man. Alien is an all time great, and I'm sure it's better for some deep filmmaking reasons, but when people start getting into what makes it better than Aliens or what makes Aliens worse I just hear genre preference or something akin to movie magic.
 

Johnstantine

Skibbidy Boo Bop
Griffith said:
You mean Terminator and T2? Because as far as I'm concerned those are the only Terminator movies that exist (and didn't Cameron do some 3D short with the T2 cast for Universal studios?). And your example should be more like:
T1/Alien > T2/Aliens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else in the franchise(s).

Or at least the same taste applies when appreciating T1 and Ride the Lightning, even the parts that seem rough around the edges today.

I'm an Aliens man. Alien is an all time great, and I'm sure it's better for some deep filmmaking reasons, but when people start getting into what makes it better than Aliens or what makes Aliens worse I just hear genre preference or something akin to movie magic.

I mean, if we're getting down to the bare basics, then yeah Aliens is the more solid film. I've seen it more than I have Alien so that has to say something.

Also, Aliens has the nostalgia factor because it's the first movie I ever watched with my parents that I can remember.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
http://youtu.be/_flR9_6msik

FANT4STIC, or not really. If you're going to do the Michael Caine/Morgan Freeman super serious narration trailer, you should hire one of those two so it doesn't sound like a car commercial, or at least a really good car commercial. Anyway, I feel like Marvel coukd make a billion dollars with this property, or at least shit out a better movie, but Fox is just going to keep making weird movies that don't work either as comicbook adaptations or entertainment. They should just trade for Inhumans or something.
 
At least , the trailers for the 1st 2 FF4 films were more entertaining than the films themselves. That said the FF4 Trailer looks in execution to be unoriginal and is devoid of any life much like the film I wager.
 
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