What's left of Griffith's Ego?
- Thread starter Walter
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Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
I wholly disagree, because Femto is a demon by nature, while Griffith was a man; inherently, there is a difference. Olivier Hague made that eloquent point, and I don't see how one can ignore it, especially with what we now know about one's Od and the way it can be supernaturally affected/manipulated. Griffith's supernatural ego may have gone to meet Idea, but what left that meeting could no longer be considered simply that. Griffith's ego was infused with the negative flow of the abyss, turning him into a demon; Femto.
Schierke, Volume 26, Episode 226, translated by Saiki:
"Those who... ...are exposed to the flow of 'Odo' will literally turn into a demon."
This is also what happened to Griffith.
His rebirth/reincaration only complicates things further; possibly making his Od the product of his original ego, demon transformation, Guts/Casca's child, and whatever other unknown and variable effects the rebirth, and becoming a being of flesh, had on him. Therefore, and for all the reasons above, I must challege your statement. =)
In berserk universe we make a distiction in three standard parts: physical, astral and ideal.
While the overal nature of a separate body and its position could be distinguished on reference to the above, what I think we are talking about here is Griffiths "ego" which comes down not to the overall nature of a thing, but just to a simple universal value, one globally linked and thus "standarized" by definition to the three above distinctions
This value could be linked to Karma...and I believe Griffith makes big part of it
For instance, about Griffith's reincarnation, as far as his "new and demonic powers", well, this goes to the whole world now...
What Schierke was talking about, I believe it lied to a different level than the one which matters here (IMO).
Simply put, Griffith ego's determination of loving Caska didn't and won't exist.
While the overal nature of a separate body and its position could be distinguished on reference to the above, what I think we are talking about here is Griffiths "ego" which comes down not to the overall nature of a thing, but just to a simple universal value, one globally linked and thus "standarized" by definition to the three above distinctions
This value could be linked to Karma...and I believe Griffith makes big part of it
For instance, about Griffith's reincarnation, as far as his "new and demonic powers", well, this goes to the whole world now...
What Schierke was talking about, I believe it lied to a different level than the one which matters here (IMO).
Simply put, Griffith ego's determination of loving Caska didn't and won't exist.
"Griffith No More!" said:
Although you are right on the previous part, I wonder why you would include "his original ego" in that list. As far as I can tell, it disappeared the instant Femto was born. It changed, was tainted, and ultimately transformed into Femto.
PS: As for the quote from Schierke, I believe it not to be so relevant (something about an armor). ;)
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Aazealh said:
I included his original ego, or his human ego, just for the sake of addressing all possibilities; everything that one way, or another, went into his current incarnation. It doesn't mean that it was somehow reestablished, but that it was a part of Femto, though tainted and perhaps insignificant, anyway and therefore a part of him now. Since we don't know the full scope of what the rebirth/reincarnation entails exactly, I'm simply not ruling anything out.
Aazealh said:
That's incidental. Generally, it was about supernatural/ethereal forces and ods effecting one another. ;)
"Griffith No More!" said:
Your Schierke quote only addresses the flow of Od as specific to the Berserker Armor. However, as a general rule, egos exposed to properties of the Astral World without proper guidance lead to the loss of that ego. By casting and summoning various spells, Schierke plummets into the Astral world with only her teachings keeping her sane, and even then it's still a risk, as she's said in Episode 185 and in the forementioned quote. Likewise, Guts plummets into the dark Od of the Armor without any guidance whatsoever, other than his instinct to "submit" to the Beast."Griffith No More!" said:
Griffith, on the other hand, did not mindlessly dive into the Abyss, but was guided through it by the Idea of Evil. Its involvement in his transformation places him outside the parallels of Schierke and Guts' experiences with plunging their egos to the Astral world.
I agree. It is unclear so far as to the effects of the Reincarnation on his original ego. However, whatever supernatural changes his ego went through by the tainting of the Idea of Evil, I maintain that Griffith's ego is intact, sound and even recognizable. However, he is not a man. He is the physical embodiment of his ego's ideal.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
That's subjective, abstract and irrelevant to my my point; it's basically semantics. There's nothing there to disavow the general correlation between the supernatural forces exerted on Guts' and Griffith's egos. I could make useless abstract counter arguements, but I prefer to say, "My ass!" =)
Walter said:
I agree that he is still Griffith, for the sake of story continuity, if nothing else. However, again, I can't concur with abstract definitions of what Griffith "is."
"Griffith No More!" said:
I think I just lost my ego!Are you saying that the Guts/Beast transformation coorelates 100% with the Griffith/Femto transformation? If that is your point, which I'm not sure, there can be no comparison. Guts retains his ego after each encounter of subjecting himself to the Od of Berserk's Armor. Griffith, however, is undeniably changed by each transcendance."Griffith No More!" said:
Is this what we're arguing now? I'm lost... Od damn it!!!
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
?? =)
Walter said:
I said there was a general correlation, of course there are inherent differences in their transformations, but as I said those are incidental differences; more a matter of degree, scale, and circumstance. The part I feel is closer to 100% on (don't quote me on that =) is the relationship between Guts/Beast and Griffith/Femto. The relationships are the same, they just happened to be realized differently. Imagine what the Berserk's Armor would look like if Griffith wore it.
Walter said:
Well, my whole point originally was just that Griffith was changed, so no argument here. =)
I apologize for dragging up this old thread but I did so for two reasons. 1) It'd be a shame if Griffith's Griffith-Walter picture faded into oblivion 
and 2) I had a question that related to this specific subject.
Firstly, I completely agree with Griffith's idea about Femto and Griffith's Ego being "separate entities." That's what actually directed me to this thread, my curiosity if this idea had already been discussed. Personally, I believe it went something like this. Griffith's ego (I'll call it the base ego) existed. This base ego is his personality and his dream's drive. The base ego was twisted into Femto which was no longer Griffith although, because Femto was formed from the base ego, Femto also has the drive to get his own kingdom (although everything else of the base ego was lost that we know of). When "Griffith" was incarnated back into a physical body, he is actually Femto (the only similarity to Griffith being the dream for a kingdom and the appearance of the body). All that has pretty much been stated before... My question is... Since Griffith was twisted into Femto, has he referred to himself as Griffith? I know everyone else calls him Griffith (or Femto) but my thinking is, if he's really Femto and doesn't acknowledge himself as Griffith (beyond acknowledging he's using Griffith's body) than perhaps Griffith's name/honor could technically be cleared since it's not really "him?" (I'm trying to save your honor, Griffy-poo!
).
If this is true, I'm curious where the base Ego is. Would he be nothing now? Lost forever? Or is he "trapped" within Femto... Kind of seeing everything go down but unable to control anything? Just a thought, lol.
and 2) I had a question that related to this specific subject.Firstly, I completely agree with Griffith's idea about Femto and Griffith's Ego being "separate entities." That's what actually directed me to this thread, my curiosity if this idea had already been discussed. Personally, I believe it went something like this. Griffith's ego (I'll call it the base ego) existed. This base ego is his personality and his dream's drive. The base ego was twisted into Femto which was no longer Griffith although, because Femto was formed from the base ego, Femto also has the drive to get his own kingdom (although everything else of the base ego was lost that we know of). When "Griffith" was incarnated back into a physical body, he is actually Femto (the only similarity to Griffith being the dream for a kingdom and the appearance of the body). All that has pretty much been stated before... My question is... Since Griffith was twisted into Femto, has he referred to himself as Griffith? I know everyone else calls him Griffith (or Femto) but my thinking is, if he's really Femto and doesn't acknowledge himself as Griffith (beyond acknowledging he's using Griffith's body) than perhaps Griffith's name/honor could technically be cleared since it's not really "him?" (I'm trying to save your honor, Griffy-poo!
).If this is true, I'm curious where the base Ego is. Would he be nothing now? Lost forever? Or is he "trapped" within Femto... Kind of seeing everything go down but unable to control anything? Just a thought, lol.
D
Death Can Wait
Guest
I don't think "Femto's" ego has faded entirely, or Griffith's own personality for that matter. At the hill of swords, Griffith addresses Guts by saying "You were always the one to pull your sword first" (along that line), which would be obviously citing their first encounter. Secondly, he says "I will achieve my dream no matter what, you should know this best" (again, not word for word) None of these things coincide with anything from Femto who treated Guts as nothing more than a useless sacrifice (and the rape of Casca). I don't know if the child/embryo/demon infant's heart within Griffith has anything to do with his treatment to Guts at all (I still don't know why it stalked Guts, can anyone clearify?)
But it does effect Casca, and obviously he wasn't ripping her clothes off and raping her then (again, if anything he was shielding her) Griffith changes with each ascension, I have to go out on a limb and say,
New Griffith=Old Griffith, Femto, Child of Casca/Femto
He's not just Femto in a mortal shell or a new embodinement of Griffith.
But it does effect Casca, and obviously he wasn't ripping her clothes off and raping her then (again, if anything he was shielding her) Griffith changes with each ascension, I have to go out on a limb and say,
New Griffith=Old Griffith, Femto, Child of Casca/Femto
He's not just Femto in a mortal shell or a new embodinement of Griffith.
Ego is not the same as memory... Anyway you want to slice it, all semantics aside, Aaz hit it on the head: Griffith's ego was tainted through his transformation into Femto (and his humanity cast aside).Death Can Wait said:
Probably just missed his daddy. It's an infant, after all. Never seemed that confusing to me...
Ugh, jesus dude... Do you really think Griffith became some frothing-at-the-mouth rape maniac when he became Femto? You can't be serious... tell me you're joking. PLEASE!
D
Death Can Wait
Guest
1)Yes, I know his memory is intact. Yet as you said Griffith's ego was tainted when he turned Femto and his humanity cast aside. However, it is largely clear the new emobiment of Griffith share's both Femto's "ego" AND his old memories equally imo.
He used the sacrifices for what they were as Femto , yet again at the hill of swords he at least seeks to find if he did lament over the loss of the hawk and feeling "nothing". Obviously someone with all of Femto's ego wouldn't even give a damn to visit such a place.
2)I don't know, I kind of thought the killing Guts was about to lay down when the "unholy creature" was born might have scarred it and made it seek some type of haunting revenge or as you said, a "first sight daddy complex".
3)No of course not. I am stating though that in Femto form he was able to do what he wanted and take what he needed when he wanted it. He's obviously not foaming at the mouth even as Femto, yet if the same ego was present, not even a -bit- of "domination" was displayed when he found Casca. Just as he chose to see Rickert (again, offering him a role in the Hawks and speaking nothing of the sacrifice?) maybe he views Casca in the same light (as he excepts Guts' devoted to his vengeance and clearly has no problem with it). Again it's also dealing with his source of material form which is (god it sounds odd in writting) the father of himself.
Bottom line I'm just stating that as everyone has pointed the difference in Griffith's transcending, I'd have to largely believe that a lot of his "dark" ego has disapated for the most part in favor of a whole new being and the resumption of accomplishing his dream.
He used the sacrifices for what they were as Femto , yet again at the hill of swords he at least seeks to find if he did lament over the loss of the hawk and feeling "nothing". Obviously someone with all of Femto's ego wouldn't even give a damn to visit such a place.
2)I don't know, I kind of thought the killing Guts was about to lay down when the "unholy creature" was born might have scarred it and made it seek some type of haunting revenge or as you said, a "first sight daddy complex".
3)No of course not. I am stating though that in Femto form he was able to do what he wanted and take what he needed when he wanted it. He's obviously not foaming at the mouth even as Femto, yet if the same ego was present, not even a -bit- of "domination" was displayed when he found Casca. Just as he chose to see Rickert (again, offering him a role in the Hawks and speaking nothing of the sacrifice?) maybe he views Casca in the same light (as he excepts Guts' devoted to his vengeance and clearly has no problem with it). Again it's also dealing with his source of material form which is (god it sounds odd in writting) the father of himself.
Bottom line I'm just stating that as everyone has pointed the difference in Griffith's transcending, I'd have to largely believe that a lot of his "dark" ego has disapated for the most part in favor of a whole new being and the resumption of accomplishing his dream.
I think you may have misunderstood that scene. Griffith went to the Hill of Swords to make sure he didn't have his old weakness: his feelings for Guts. Ya know... "THE ONLY ONE WHO MADE ME LOSE SIGHT OF MY DREAM..." that whole thingDeath Can Wait said:
in addition to what you've already mentioned: to make a proposition to Rickert.Well, if it were planning revenge, its chance has already passed in the traditional sense. The child's already transmigrated to a new form. And anyway, it's been nothing but helpful to Guts along his journey. The only time it's been shown as having malicious intent was in Guts' dream sequence in vol 3: not a reliable source.
He chose to allow them to live. Only someone with dominion can pull that off. But I'm digressing... Griffith had no reason to display violence towards Casca. It's not part of his agenda. And why shouldn't he ask Rickert to join the Hawks? He was never a sacrifice anyway, and he's turned into quite a blacksmith. But, most importantly, don't confuse Griffith's incredible charisma for a reversion to his old personality.
I really think you're overexaggerating the differences between Griffith and Femto. His "dark" ego has dissipated? I think you're mistaken... At the core, he's the same: a member of God Hand. And as long as that's the case (and I don't foresee that ever changing...), there's little chance of him being "good," or whatever you were assuming this "new being" to be.
I see you guys are a bit confused here. I'll add some explanations on top of Walter's.
You know, I think you're confusing (fooling?) yourself with this base ego thing. It's really quite simple, it works like it does for apostles. There's Griffith. He goes to the Abyss, and chooses what he will become. He is transformed into an evil being. His ego changes of course, becomes evil. But it's not like a big part of him was stored away, only to come back when he was incarnated. Simply said, his ego was evilized. It was tainted during his transformation into Femto. So it's Griffith as you knew him, only with no ounce of goodness left in him. An evolution of his old self who tried to be emotionless, only this time he's really emotionless and immensely evil. Femto isn't dissimilar to Griffith, they're really the same person, but after that person was changed. Changed in a fundamental way. But basically, they're still the same person. When our member Griff said they were different entitites, he was just emphasizing the fact that the change that Griffith underwent wasn't just "MORE POWER" but profound. Griffith and Femto aren't completely different or even mostly different, they're mostly the same.
Yes.
No. See all of what he's doing. Going to see Guts, talking to Rickert. Keeping his promise to Charlotte, etc. It's Femto, but Femto was once Griffith. It's just that now he's a member of the God Hand.
Sorry, but no, his name and honor can't possibly be redeemed. He's totally and definitely acknowledging himself as Griffith. Your post strikes me as trying to imply that Griffith isn't bad, and that we shouldn't blame him for anything. Well he was never a really nice guy as a human, and he sacrificed his friends and chose to become Femto. Then from what we can see, the change his personality underwent was mostly that he lost all the "good" he had left in him.
Yeah, exactly what I meant earlier... There's no "base ego." Griffith had an ego, and this ego became Femto. All of it, no parts left aside.
Of course they haven't. Femto's ego hasn't faded at all, and Griffith's own personality was carried over when he became Femto. Maybe that personality changed a bit, but it's essentially the same as before.
Because it's his father? And it has something to do with the fact Griffith actually felt his heartbeat when he saw Guts fighting. The child reacts to his parents. It's a big deal, and it's what is going to play a big role in regard to Griffith's personality now. This is what matters these days, not all this wishful thinking about old Griffith from volume 6 coming back to life.
It's not like that. It's simply:
Griffith + Evil Power = Femto
Femto + Demon Child's body = New Griffith
There's no substraction here, only additions. Nothing is lost, everything just transforms and evolves. Even the Demon Child's own ego, who I imagine was supposed to be destroyed, remains present within this new Griffith.
No, the new Griffith just has Femto's ego. Femto's ego who's an "evilution" (yes, cheesy I know) of Griffith. There really isn't anything complicated here, and there's no "equality" deal. Once again guys, there's no reason whatsoever if you read the manga to go imagine some far-fetched theory about Femto regaining some part of Griffith's ego that was stored somewhere when he got a new body. It just didn't happen. At best, having a body of flesh instead of being a purely astral being allows him to feel more things and influences him a bit (not to mention the Demon Child's big influence, but that's a bit different), but don't be mistaken guys, it's the same person inside.
Femto raped Casca in front of Guts to hurt him. He gave a damn back then, if only so slightly. He didn't "use the sacrifices" either aside from this. And he went to the Hill of Swords to confirm it out of curiosity I guess, but it might also have been unconsciously provoked by the Demon Child inside of him. That event inscribes itself in the continuation of the rape of Casca, he's just taking his cold revenge on Guts by playing around and discarding him. Of course, things aren't going so well (because of the child) and it'll probably cause him problems in the future.
He couldn't take what he wanted most: his kingdom.
Not only had he no reason to care or bother with that, but it's the Child that acted to protect her at that moment. It's clearly shown in these panels. That's why Griffith suddenly decided to leave, because the Demon Child was making him act impulsively (and possibly uncontrollably).
Rickert wasn't sacrificed. And this is just another proof that Griffith doesn't care or feel any shame/pride/anything.
Guts is the father of the child, not Femto.
Well that's wrong and you have nothing to back this idea up. You need to see the bigger picture here. It's prophesized that Griffith will bring an era of darkness to the world, it's been said since volume 14. He's just evil in disguise, nothing too hard to understand.
Sushi Fish said:
You know, I think you're confusing (fooling?) yourself with this base ego thing. It's really quite simple, it works like it does for apostles. There's Griffith. He goes to the Abyss, and chooses what he will become. He is transformed into an evil being. His ego changes of course, becomes evil. But it's not like a big part of him was stored away, only to come back when he was incarnated. Simply said, his ego was evilized. It was tainted during his transformation into Femto. So it's Griffith as you knew him, only with no ounce of goodness left in him. An evolution of his old self who tried to be emotionless, only this time he's really emotionless and immensely evil. Femto isn't dissimilar to Griffith, they're really the same person, but after that person was changed. Changed in a fundamental way. But basically, they're still the same person. When our member Griff said they were different entitites, he was just emphasizing the fact that the change that Griffith underwent wasn't just "MORE POWER" but profound. Griffith and Femto aren't completely different or even mostly different, they're mostly the same.
Sushi Fish said:
Yes.
Sushi Fish said:
No. See all of what he's doing. Going to see Guts, talking to Rickert. Keeping his promise to Charlotte, etc. It's Femto, but Femto was once Griffith. It's just that now he's a member of the God Hand.
Sushi Fish said:
Sorry, but no, his name and honor can't possibly be redeemed. He's totally and definitely acknowledging himself as Griffith. Your post strikes me as trying to imply that Griffith isn't bad, and that we shouldn't blame him for anything. Well he was never a really nice guy as a human, and he sacrificed his friends and chose to become Femto. Then from what we can see, the change his personality underwent was mostly that he lost all the "good" he had left in him.
Sushi Fish said:
Yeah, exactly what I meant earlier... There's no "base ego." Griffith had an ego, and this ego became Femto. All of it, no parts left aside.
Death Can Wait said:
Of course they haven't. Femto's ego hasn't faded at all, and Griffith's own personality was carried over when he became Femto. Maybe that personality changed a bit, but it's essentially the same as before.
Death Can Wait said:
Because it's his father? And it has something to do with the fact Griffith actually felt his heartbeat when he saw Guts fighting. The child reacts to his parents. It's a big deal, and it's what is going to play a big role in regard to Griffith's personality now. This is what matters these days, not all this wishful thinking about old Griffith from volume 6 coming back to life.
Death Can Wait said:
It's not like that. It's simply:
Griffith + Evil Power = Femto
Femto + Demon Child's body = New Griffith
There's no substraction here, only additions. Nothing is lost, everything just transforms and evolves. Even the Demon Child's own ego, who I imagine was supposed to be destroyed, remains present within this new Griffith.
Death Can Wait said:
No, the new Griffith just has Femto's ego. Femto's ego who's an "evilution" (yes, cheesy I know) of Griffith. There really isn't anything complicated here, and there's no "equality" deal. Once again guys, there's no reason whatsoever if you read the manga to go imagine some far-fetched theory about Femto regaining some part of Griffith's ego that was stored somewhere when he got a new body. It just didn't happen. At best, having a body of flesh instead of being a purely astral being allows him to feel more things and influences him a bit (not to mention the Demon Child's big influence, but that's a bit different), but don't be mistaken guys, it's the same person inside.
Death Can Wait said:
Femto raped Casca in front of Guts to hurt him. He gave a damn back then, if only so slightly. He didn't "use the sacrifices" either aside from this. And he went to the Hill of Swords to confirm it out of curiosity I guess, but it might also have been unconsciously provoked by the Demon Child inside of him. That event inscribes itself in the continuation of the rape of Casca, he's just taking his cold revenge on Guts by playing around and discarding him. Of course, things aren't going so well (because of the child) and it'll probably cause him problems in the future.
Death Can Wait said:
He couldn't take what he wanted most: his kingdom.
Death Can Wait said:
Not only had he no reason to care or bother with that, but it's the Child that acted to protect her at that moment. It's clearly shown in these panels. That's why Griffith suddenly decided to leave, because the Demon Child was making him act impulsively (and possibly uncontrollably).
Death Can Wait said:
Rickert wasn't sacrificed. And this is just another proof that Griffith doesn't care or feel any shame/pride/anything.
Death Can Wait said:
Guts is the father of the child, not Femto.
Death Can Wait said:
Well that's wrong and you have nothing to back this idea up. You need to see the bigger picture here. It's prophesized that Griffith will bring an era of darkness to the world, it's been said since volume 14. He's just evil in disguise, nothing too hard to understand.
There's just no redeeming Griffith, Femto's ego is deffinitely a continuation of his own, though admittingly devoid of any humanity. Episode 82 shows him being re-compositioned out of Griffith, not that he came out of nowhere. The only thing going his way (very slightly), is that he was basically utterly desperate and slightly manipulated, but in the end of the day it was still all his choice.
The Incarnated version of him obviously carries the remnants of the child's ego (said nothing new), but what I'm interested is wether any of you guys think that the Beherit apostle still figures somewhere. My thoughts are that he was used up in the Occultation as a means of transcendence, as well as to further accelerate the whole dream of change and conquest.
The Incarnated version of him obviously carries the remnants of the child's ego (said nothing new), but what I'm interested is wether any of you guys think that the Beherit apostle still figures somewhere. My thoughts are that he was used up in the Occultation as a means of transcendence, as well as to further accelerate the whole dream of change and conquest.
Hello all. I'm a first-time poster, but I have been lurking about the forums for awhile, and now I find myself compelled to contribute to this topic :) I agree with much of what other members have written, particularly Griffith's description of the literal mechanics of transformation and Aaz's reply on the continuation of the ego; I am not going to add much to these aspects, as they've already been covered very well. What I want to discuss is further specifics of transformation and how exactly the ego is involved and altered.
I will begin with what I consider my founding points. First, transformation into an apostle or Godhand member involves an alteration in all levels of being; there are consequences from the ritual of sacrifice that extend throughout the physical, astral, and ideal realms. The most important word here is consequence; the choice to sacrifice has more of a direct consequence unto Griffith, for example, than it does to any of his branded victims, despite the immediacy of their suffering. Second, the transformation to evil is not a complete negation of humanity, but rather an active perversion of it. I base this point on the very Idea of Evil, which is the manifest desire of the darker unconsciousness of humanity and thus just as much an expression of human being as anything else. What makes evil perverse, of course, is its aim of discarding affections that are considered weak, even though such affections also involve humanity's best characteristics. On an individual level, consider the willed destruction of a person's object of love, the satiation of an otherwise unconscious or suppressed desire to eliminate that with the potential to cause great pain. The result of choosing this evil path is a being divided against itself, crippled by its inability to otherwise reconcile or even acknowledge the flip side of its desire.
So where does the ego, one's awareness of self, fall into this description? I contend that there is at least some dissolution involved, although not in the sense that one's self "disappears" somewhere. Instead, the darker id creeps more to the forefront; the boundary between the conscious and the unconscious begins to dissolve when the unconscious desires are acted upon in a ritualized manner. Furthermore, other aspects of an astral nature are certainly involved with the transformation and so affect the ego. Here an interesting comparison might be made with the gradual dissolution of the boundaries between the various realms as connected to Evil's ultimate goal, but I think that is for another post. What I want to illustrate now is the altered distribution of the ego, the id, and other "supernatural" components. With most apostles, the ego appears to have lost its relative ascendancy; the base desires of the id are pushed all the way to the forefront, enabled and embodied as they are by supernatural means. Animalistic and inhuman behavior is matched by appearance in the many wonderful examples Miura has drawn for us :) Self-control via the ego seems wholly absent in some cases, thus providing Guts with many "high-level monster" opponents.
However, not all apostles operate so mindlessly. There are exceptions, such as the Count and Rochine. These beings have not "lost" their sense of self to the overcrowding of misdirected desire. Something in the world still keeps their focus and reinforces their ego. For the Count, it is his daughter Theresia, whom he still very much loves, both in her own right and perhaps as the reflection of her otherwise discarded mother. For Rochine, it is her cause and the kindred identity she has formed in regard to others in her former position, such as Jill. One can go into further detail with these two, but let's get to our main focus.
Griffith is definitely an interesting case. He is a Godhand member, and so claims as much "superiority" over apostles as they do over humans. Yet I do not think that the pattern of his transformation is markedly different than that of an apostle. The id's desires are still enacted, as when he rapes Casca while directly seeking Guts' attention. He is still supernaturally altered,
although his ego is maintained because he as yet has a concrete connection to his former life, that is, his dream. The "weaknesses" and affections that had blocked him from said dream have been removed ... except Guts and Casca are still alive despite the odds. They are branded and marked for destruction, but they are not destroyed. Of course, Griffith can easily make the claim that they mean nothing to him, that the moment he sacrificed them with the others they were excised from his heart. But as other examples have proven throughout the series, the self can offer its own greatest deception. One is not aware of all one's feelings, and in some cases, certain desires are repressed to the encouragement of others. That doesn't mean that the original desire is of less import or has no further consequence. On the contrary, it is the active deception a person wills for himself that makes his transformation such a sad and perverse state; any belief in what he did as the logical course of action will be belied when he must confront the true nature of his being ... that is, if the ego is still in a state to fully
recognize damnation. I am sure Griffith's will be :)
PS. I apologize in advance for any misuse of the boards! It's been awhile since I last posted on a board, and it's quite possible that I am more computer illiterate than Japanese illiterate ... which is not very good. Oh well, the most important thing is that I believe Berserk is a great manga with many levels of meaning, one that certainly deserves a short essay or two ... or a couple hundred, who knows? :)
--Exegy
I will begin with what I consider my founding points. First, transformation into an apostle or Godhand member involves an alteration in all levels of being; there are consequences from the ritual of sacrifice that extend throughout the physical, astral, and ideal realms. The most important word here is consequence; the choice to sacrifice has more of a direct consequence unto Griffith, for example, than it does to any of his branded victims, despite the immediacy of their suffering. Second, the transformation to evil is not a complete negation of humanity, but rather an active perversion of it. I base this point on the very Idea of Evil, which is the manifest desire of the darker unconsciousness of humanity and thus just as much an expression of human being as anything else. What makes evil perverse, of course, is its aim of discarding affections that are considered weak, even though such affections also involve humanity's best characteristics. On an individual level, consider the willed destruction of a person's object of love, the satiation of an otherwise unconscious or suppressed desire to eliminate that with the potential to cause great pain. The result of choosing this evil path is a being divided against itself, crippled by its inability to otherwise reconcile or even acknowledge the flip side of its desire.
So where does the ego, one's awareness of self, fall into this description? I contend that there is at least some dissolution involved, although not in the sense that one's self "disappears" somewhere. Instead, the darker id creeps more to the forefront; the boundary between the conscious and the unconscious begins to dissolve when the unconscious desires are acted upon in a ritualized manner. Furthermore, other aspects of an astral nature are certainly involved with the transformation and so affect the ego. Here an interesting comparison might be made with the gradual dissolution of the boundaries between the various realms as connected to Evil's ultimate goal, but I think that is for another post. What I want to illustrate now is the altered distribution of the ego, the id, and other "supernatural" components. With most apostles, the ego appears to have lost its relative ascendancy; the base desires of the id are pushed all the way to the forefront, enabled and embodied as they are by supernatural means. Animalistic and inhuman behavior is matched by appearance in the many wonderful examples Miura has drawn for us :) Self-control via the ego seems wholly absent in some cases, thus providing Guts with many "high-level monster" opponents.
However, not all apostles operate so mindlessly. There are exceptions, such as the Count and Rochine. These beings have not "lost" their sense of self to the overcrowding of misdirected desire. Something in the world still keeps their focus and reinforces their ego. For the Count, it is his daughter Theresia, whom he still very much loves, both in her own right and perhaps as the reflection of her otherwise discarded mother. For Rochine, it is her cause and the kindred identity she has formed in regard to others in her former position, such as Jill. One can go into further detail with these two, but let's get to our main focus.
Griffith is definitely an interesting case. He is a Godhand member, and so claims as much "superiority" over apostles as they do over humans. Yet I do not think that the pattern of his transformation is markedly different than that of an apostle. The id's desires are still enacted, as when he rapes Casca while directly seeking Guts' attention. He is still supernaturally altered,
although his ego is maintained because he as yet has a concrete connection to his former life, that is, his dream. The "weaknesses" and affections that had blocked him from said dream have been removed ... except Guts and Casca are still alive despite the odds. They are branded and marked for destruction, but they are not destroyed. Of course, Griffith can easily make the claim that they mean nothing to him, that the moment he sacrificed them with the others they were excised from his heart. But as other examples have proven throughout the series, the self can offer its own greatest deception. One is not aware of all one's feelings, and in some cases, certain desires are repressed to the encouragement of others. That doesn't mean that the original desire is of less import or has no further consequence. On the contrary, it is the active deception a person wills for himself that makes his transformation such a sad and perverse state; any belief in what he did as the logical course of action will be belied when he must confront the true nature of his being ... that is, if the ego is still in a state to fully
recognize damnation. I am sure Griffith's will be :)
PS. I apologize in advance for any misuse of the boards! It's been awhile since I last posted on a board, and it's quite possible that I am more computer illiterate than Japanese illiterate ... which is not very good. Oh well, the most important thing is that I believe Berserk is a great manga with many levels of meaning, one that certainly deserves a short essay or two ... or a couple hundred, who knows? :)
--Exegy
Hi Exegy, and welcome.
That's quite a big and thoughtful post you have here, kudos on it. Unfortunately though I'm afraid it's mostly a jargonic "complexification" of simple concepts, coupled with pure assumptions. To be more specific, your use of psychoanalytical terms isn't based on actual information from the manga but more on how you interpret the events and mechanics of the Berserk world, often without considering the full extent of its supernatural aspect. Your post is too long for me to do a classic (and exhausting) quote by quote reply, I hope you won't mind. Sorry for my bluntness as well.
That's quite a big and thoughtful post you have here, kudos on it. Unfortunately though I'm afraid it's mostly a jargonic "complexification" of simple concepts, coupled with pure assumptions. To be more specific, your use of psychoanalytical terms isn't based on actual information from the manga but more on how you interpret the events and mechanics of the Berserk world, often without considering the full extent of its supernatural aspect. Your post is too long for me to do a classic (and exhausting) quote by quote reply, I hope you won't mind. Sorry for my bluntness as well.
Hey, s'alright! I fully realize that my interpretation is just that--my interpretation, and not even that well-founded in regard to specific details from the manga, especially, as you say, the supernatural framework. I also know that I am ignoring the reincarnation/moonlight child situation, but it would make an already complicated post even worse, so perhaps another time. Hopefully I can then manage to rein myself in better; I actually did not intend a psychoanalytic reading this time, as I knew it did not apply well to terms the manga uses, but look what happened :) This is why veterans should indeed rein the newbies in, so that our fancy but wild theories do not undergo dangerous permutations of their own :)
Anyway, thanks for the quick welcome and feedback. I am still in the process of reading the manga (I only read the Japanese tanks, and my Japanese is poor ... thus it takes me forever), so forgive me the wide gaps in my knowledge. I'm trying to fill those in, but I might as well contribute some ideas while I do so!
Anyway, thanks for the quick welcome and feedback. I am still in the process of reading the manga (I only read the Japanese tanks, and my Japanese is poor ... thus it takes me forever), so forgive me the wide gaps in my knowledge. I'm trying to fill those in, but I might as well contribute some ideas while I do so!