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Oburi

All praise Grail
Ridley Scott is one those directors I forget whether or not he belongs in the category of modern greats. When I really think about though, Alien is his strongest work and the further we go from there the weaker it gets.
 
Mmm, you could give an argument about Blade Runner being his peak especially considering the impact that film had on the science-fiction genre and being a leading factor in making the cyberpunk sub-genre popular today. But you could also say the same thing about Alien and it's impact on horror so it just boils down to personal preference.

That being said he's definitely a hit or miss director but when he hits it, he hits it out of the park.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Ridley Scott is one those directors I forget whether or not he belongs in the category of modern greats. When I really think about though, Alien is his strongest work and the further we go from there the weaker it gets.

Agreed, and it's almost unfair to give the credit of Alien just to Scott. He inherited assets and talent from the canceled Jodorowsky Dune project that served as the foundation for the atmosphere that Alien came to be known for.

That being said he's definitely a hit or miss director but when he hits it, he hits it out of the park.
Genuinely curious, aside from Blade Runner and Alien, what are those other home runs?
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Mmm, you could give an argument about Blade Runner being his peak especially considering the impact that film had on the science-fiction genre and being a leading factor in making the cyberpunk sub-genre popular today. But you could also say the same thing about Alien and it's impact on horror so it just boils down to personal preference.

That being said he's definitely a hit or miss director but when he hits it, he hits it out of the park.

Yea I'm one of those that think, as good as Blade Runner is, it's pretty overrated, special effects aside (and a few of the performances, not enough). Alien's aesthetic is far more aligned with my personal taste.

I just watched the two Sicario movies today, back to back. I enjoyed them. They had some really amazing setpieces. Car and helicopter chases, violent shootouts at the border, realistic bombings of civilian areas. The action was intense. The only thing that got in the way was the overly dramatic, heavy handed seriousness that movie forces on you via soundtrack and grim expressions from stern, gruff and gritty badasses and soft spoken, glossy eyed good guys. Most of it centered around Benicio Del Toro's character who is obviously this movies version of Anton Chigur. And boy are they trying. Unfortunately I couldn't fully buy into in Benicios grim dark persona with complete seriousness no matter how long the camera hung out his blank face or how ominous that deep, pulsating bass played, a soundtrack that by the way was already done to perfection in, yet again, T2 for the T-1000 (maybe it didn't help that I had rewatched T2 a few days ago (as well as No Country for Old Men)).

Agreed, and it's almost unfair to give the credit of Alien just to Scott. He inherited assets and talent from the canceled Jodorowsky Dune project that served as the foundation for the atmosphere that Alien came to be known for.

And Walter Hill. I just listened to a podcast he did with Bret Easten Ellis where he talked about how Dan O'Bannon's original script was essentially a poor B-movie that could have ended up like everything else before it. Luckily, Hill saw the potential with the chestburster scene and reworked the script and hired Scott to shoot the movie like the most expensive commercial ever made, instead of typical monster movie. I think that's partly why Alien also feels like an outlier among his other films. By the way, both Hill and Ellis also agreed that Scott never topped Alien.
 
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Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Genuinely curious, aside from Blade Runner and Alien, what are those other home runs?
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I was not.


Another genuine question: Was Blade Runner 2049 a missed opportunity for Scott since he opted to do his bad Alien reboot instead (lol), or a blessing that he didn't ruin it and we got Villeneuve's vision? I'm picking the latter, BUT to be fair Scott has had a very successful career outside his most transcendent works in the genre we happen to like, so it's probably not fair to insinuate he's an irrelevant fraud or one hit wonder either just because his biggest hits since aren't necessarily our personal cup of tea.
 
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Oburi

All praise Grail
I was not.

Nope. Also overrated. The third act especially is a complete mess (partly due to the death of Oliver Reed during production).

And before anyone brings up Kingdom Of Heaven 4 hour Directors Cut (Definitive Ultimate Edition: Zero), I have narrowed down the three main reasons that movie completely fails.
1 - Orlando Bloom is terribly miscast. Boring hero with no charisma.
2 - For a movie about the crusades it's so.fucking.boring. Really could've used a midpoint battle scene, which incidentally it seemed like they were gearing up for when the army gets lost in the desert and slaughtered by Saladin's forces. Unfortunately, they skip right over the battle and just show us the aftermath, missing a great opportunity to pump some life into this movie. I guess they had all their hopes on the final ending siege, which was alright, but too little too late.
3 - And the greatest sin. For a movie that prided itself on being historically accurate with the locations and costumes and being respectful to all the cultures portrayed, Scott compromises and has the entire movie spoken in English. Muslims speak English with heavy accents to each other. Saladin gives orders to his generals in English. Typical Hollywood bullshit that pulled me right out of the movie.

Another genuine question: Was Blade Runner 2049 a missed opportunity for Scott since he opted to do his bad Alien reboot instead (lol), or a blessing that he didn't ruin it and we got Villeneuve's vision? I'm picking the latter.
I would go with the latter as well, especially after Prometheus. Having said that, I didn't at all care 2049 and I sitll don't understand the hype around it.
 
Another genuine question: Was Blade Runner 2049 a missed opportunity for Scott since he opted to do his bad Alien reboot instead (lol), or a blessing that he didn't ruin it and we got Villeneuve's vision? I'm picking the latter, BUT to be fair Scott has had a very successful career outside his most transcendent works in the genre we happen to like, so it's probably not fair to insinuate he's an irrelevant fraud or one hit wonder either just because his biggest hits since aren't necessarily our personal cup of tea.

The latter - hands down. I love Blade Runner 2049 even if it's a presumably dumbed down version of what we expected comparing it to the original. I can't overlook the richness of the film, everything included - cinematography, colors, sound. Just about everything. It's such a classy palette. I mean, in its defense I would say that it doesn't reinvent the wheel or add any more philosophical questions than what the original film presented. Pushes the story without falling on its behind. In comparison, Scott made a hotchpotch that was Prometheus (base story/ philosophy with its biblical theme) and when we thought he could probably fix its issues, he went even worse with the follow up. It's unfortunate hearing him react to criticism that Prometheus got about not having a classic Alien design in it, saying "Oh you want more aliens, I'll give em to you, it'll be a bloodbath". Sure, by all means go for it but ... the final product wasn't even that! He blew it.
 
Genuinely curious, aside from Blade Runner and Alien, what are those other home runs?

For me personally, I loved Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven (Director's Cut) and The Martian. I've watched all three films multiple times and I still love watching them despite the many flaws all three films have. I enjoyed Black Hawk Down and Prometheus although I don't think they're even close to as good as Alien but they have some merits nonetheless.

Yea I'm one of those that think, as good as Blade Runner is, it's pretty overrated, special effects aside (and a few of the performances, not enough). Alien's aesthetic is far more aligned with my personal taste.

I just watched the two Sicario movies today, back to back. I enjoyed them. They had some really amazing setpieces. Car and helicopter chases, violent shootouts at the border, realistic bombings of civilian areas. The action was intense. The only thing that got in the way was the overly dramatic, heavy handed seriousness that movie forces on you via soundtrack and grim expressions from stern, gruff and gritty badasses and soft spoken, glossy eyed good guys. Most of it centered around Benicio Del Toro's character who is obviously this movies version of Anton Chigur. And boy are they trying. Unfortunately I couldn't fully buy into in Benicios grim dark persona with complete seriousness no matter how long the camera hung out his blank face or how ominous that deep, pulsating bass played, a soundtrack that by the way was already done to perfection in, yet again, T2 for the T-1000 (maybe it didn't help that I had rewatched T2 a few days ago (as well as No Country for Old Men)).

Yep same here, Blade Runner definitely deserves it's cult classic status but it's a bit boring at times and Alien will always be Scott's masterpiece.

Enjoyed the first Sicario very much but I don't know if the second one is up my alley since I think Villeneuve was such a huge part that made the first one so great. Side note here but I cannot WAIT for the new Dune movie especially the track record that Denis has had the past decade. Haven't read the book yet but any Sci-fi epic will have me watching it no matter what.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I was not.

Ehhh I thought Gladiator was fine.

Another genuine question: Was Blade Runner 2049 a missed opportunity for Scott since he opted to do his bad Alien reboot instead (lol), or a blessing that he didn't ruin it and we got Villeneuve's vision?

I don't think Ridley Scott would have done it justice. I wasn't a huge fan of Villeneuve's take, but it felt like a decent effort to me. I still think the movie did not need a sequel though.

Side note here but I cannot WAIT for the new Dune movie especially the track record that Denis has had the past decade. Haven't read the book yet but any Sci-fi epic will have me watching it no matter what.

Dune is my favorite novel and I'm not very confident about this adaptation.
 
I don't think Ridley Scott would have done it justice. I wasn't a huge fan of Villeneuve's take, but it felt like a decent effort to me. I still think the movie did not need a sequel though.
Agreed. It's also a movie I'm in no rush re-watching (did it 3 times on the big screen and I've had my fill). I'd like to wait a few years and revisit Blade Runner 2049 to see how it ages with time.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Scott made a hotchpotch that was Prometheus (base story/ philosophy with its biblical theme) and when we thought he could probably fix its issues, he went even worse with the follow up. It's unfortunate hearing him react to criticism that Prometheus got about not having a classic Alien design in it, saying "Oh you want more aliens, I'll give em to you, it'll be a bloodbath". Sure, by all means go for it but ... the final product wasn't even that! He blew it.
He sure did. Playing to the audience. Maybe he missed the mark when he went brought Prometheus too far outside of the Alien world. But as you say, changing the narrative mid way to please an audience not only squandered the future but also damaged the past. Now Prometheus sits alone, a red headed step child, behind a lame attempt at mass market approval, run of the mill schlock fest that is Alien 5 (or 6 ... or 8): Covenant.

Side note here but I cannot WAIT for the new Dune movie especially the track record that Denis has had the past decade.
I don't know man. That's a tall order. While Villeneuve isn't the worst young filmmaker chosen by big studio executives as the latest director of whatever reboots/remakes/sequels/prequels they have in store, I can't say I'm optimistic about any of it. I haven't seen all his movies, but with 2049 and Sicario basically being middle of the road for me, and I HATED Prisoners with a passion (I didn't know until just now he was behind that, but I remember being really annoyed with whoever was behind the camera for that one) that puts him below the mark for adapting something like Dune. God bless him.
 
I don't know man. That's a tall order. While Villeneuve isn't the worst young filmmaker chosen by big studio executives as the latest director of whatever reboots/remakes/sequels/prequels they have in store, I can't say I'm optimistic about any of it. I haven't seen all his movies, but with 2049 and Sicario basically being middle of the road for me, and I HATED Prisoners with a passion (I didn't know until just now he was behind that, but I remember being really annoyed with whoever was behind the camera for that one) that puts him below the mark for adapting something like Dune. God bless him.

Have you seen Arrival or Enemy? Might be up your boat more than the other two?

I've noticed a lot of people despise Prisoners with a passion but some people absolutely love it to death. Why do you hate it so much?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
He sure did. Playing to the audience. Maybe he missed the mark when he went brought Prometheus too far outside of the Alien world. But as you say, changing the narrative mid way to please an audience not only squandered the future but also damaged the past. Now Prometheus sits alone, a red headed step child, behind a lame attempt at mass market approval, run of the mill schlock fest that is Alien 5 (or 6 ... or 8): Covenant.

Let's cut the crap: Alien is one of the best movies of all times. Aliens is a master stroke in that it manages to be a worthy sequel by being completely different, and yet still fucking awesome. Alien 3 gets by and has some merits, albeit not that many in my book. It should have been its own movie, unrelated to the Alien franchise. Every other movie in the series is complete shit.

Have you seen Arrival or Enemy? Might be up your boat more than the other two?

I've noticed a lot of people despise Prisoners with a passion but some people absolutely love it to death. Why do you hate it so much?

Personally I liked Prisoners, it's my favorite film of his. However I found Enemy underwhelming, I was disappointed with Arrival and I thought Blade Runner 2049 was all style and very little substance. And like Walter said, Dune is not an easy book to adapt. I'm also not convinced by some of the actors that were cast for the movie, like Oscar Isaac or the guy doing Paul.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Have you seen Arrival or Enemy? Might be up your boat more than the other two?

I've noticed a lot of people despise Prisoners with a passion but some people absolutely love it to death. Why do you hate it so much?

No but I have heard good things about Enemy and Arrival so I might watch them someday. Prisoners though... ugh. It started off promising. The panic inducing fear of a missing child was harrowing in the beginning. On the surface it seemed like this was right up my alley. But it just went on and on and on and I actually surprised myself at how impatient I got with the movie because I love slow, methodically paced films. For example, I watch the 5 hour version of Das Boot yearly (edited together from the original miniseries episodes). Same with The Godfather Saga (Coppolas cut of parts 1 and 2 together with additional footage totaling 7 hours). And yet Prisoners feels way longer to me. I tried watching it a second time and had the same problem. Also, didn't help that I have a strong aversion to most of the cast. Jake Gyllenhaal in particular. He's just one of those actors that I don't like. He always seems phony to me. Colin Farrell is another one. Now that I think about it, maybe it's part of the way Villeneuve likes to portray his main characters because I had the same issue with Gyllenhaal in Prisoners that I did with Ryan Gosling in 2049 and it's the same thing I was talking about with Benecio Del Toro in Sicario. Attempting to make the hero, or antihero, come across as dark and mysterious but ends up just being window dressing on actors I have a predisposition to dislike, perhaps unfairly.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Ehhh I thought Gladiator was fine.

Sure, but this would probably be considered his next best movie after the aforementioned two, if not #1 on the general public's list (maybe it's The Martian now =).

I don't think Ridley Scott would have done it justice. I wasn't a huge fan of Villeneuve's take, but it felt like a decent effort to me. I still think the movie did not need a sequel though.

I think 2049 as is has two advantages in that Scott's version probably would have been objectively worse than Villeneuve's, if for no other reason than Scott would have no qualms fucking it up, and the fact that it's someone else's vision gives the movie some subjective cover too; I'm not holding it to Blade Runner 1 standards or expectations since it's something new rather than the band truly getting back together for a reunion they'd need to validate.


Speaking of Dune, here's a movie based on nobody's favorite novel: Hannibal Rising. Sucked as expected, the young dude playing Hannibal was fine enough but the plot was bog standard revenge fare that didn't even get you that engaged for the unexciting killings to come. Harris' previous work all had interesting plot points or setups that this is completely lacking, it's just Hannibal killing some Nazi war criminals that are obviously meant to be less sympathetic than him, but it's all so dull. This should have been full of ingeniously elaborate kills and cannibalistic feasts but young Hannibal is just sort of a dumb, straightforward killer that fucks up a lot despite his prowess. I don't recall the score, the editing is confusing, and the directing ain't worth mentioning. This ain't no Tarantino revenge flick, that's for sure. The most interesting thing about is it has McNutty from The Wire playing another cop in Paris for the Baltimore crossover we never knew we wanted (because we didn't =). Manhunter, save me from this mediocrity with your glorious 80s motifs!
 
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No but I have heard good things about Enemy and Arrival so I might watch them someday. Prisoners though... ugh. It started off promising. The panic inducing fear of a missing child was harrowing in the beginning. On the surface it seemed like this was right up my alley. But it just went on and on and on and I actually surprised myself at how impatient I got with the movie because I love slow, methodically paced films. For example, I watch the 5 hour version of Das Boot yearly (edited together from the original miniseries episodes). Same with The Godfather Saga (Coppolas cut of parts 1 and 2 together with additional footage totaling 7 hours). And yet Prisoners feels way longer to me. I tried watching it a second time and had the same problem. Also, didn't help that I have a strong aversion to most of the cast. Jake Gyllenhaal in particular. He's just one of those actors that I don't like. He always seems phony to me. Colin Farrell is another one. Now that I think about it, maybe it's part of the way Villeneuve likes to portray his main characters because I had the same issue with Gyllenhaal in Prisoners that I did with Ryan Gosling in 2049 and it's the same thing I was talking about with Benecio Del Toro in Sicario. Attempting to make the hero, or antihero, come across as dark and mysterious but ends up just being window dressing on actors I have a predisposition to dislike, perhaps unfairly.

Fair enough, Prisoners maybe does drag sometimes in a few moments but I love the atmosphere and dread that's hanging over the characters every second, every scene just drips tension and I adored Hugh Jackmans performance - It's one of the closest films I've seen that I've had a similar emotional response to David Fincher's Zodiac (which also starred Gyllenhall coincidentally haha).

Is Das Boot worth a watch?

With the adversion to Gyllenhall, I have a similar dislike to Jessica Chastain. Seems completely lovely in real life but as an actress she is always the worst part of any movie I've seen her in.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
The most interesting thing about is it has McNutty from The Wire playing another cop in Paris for the Baltimore crossover we never knew we wanted (because we didn't =). Manhunter, save me from this mediocrity with your glorious 80s motifs!

McNutty deserves better. Hey Griff, do you think Manhunter is better than Silence of the Lambs?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Hey Griff, do you think Manhunter is better than Silence of the Lambs?

No. =)

Maybe Manhunter will sway me again tonight, but without saying anything bad about it, Silence is truly transcendent, Foster and Hopkins are incandescent, and the story is deep, multilayered and more relevant than ever today. It's just hard to beat! That doesn't diminish Manhunter, but let's not be Cox > Hopkins Hannibal contrarians here either. :carcus:

Another interesting thing about "the trilogy", other than being made by different great filmmakers with completely different styles and casts, is they're all so emblematic of their times: Manhunter the mid-80s, Silence the early-90s (mostly in its themes, otherwise it's more timeless than the others), and Hannibal the early-2000s. Even Hannibal Rising is an excellent example of mid to late 2000s direct to video quality IP cash-in bullshit! And of course the franchise transitioned to prestige TV in the 2010s, as one does.
 
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Oburi

All praise Grail
No. =)

Maybe Manhunter will sway me again tonight, but without saying anything bad about it, Silence is truly transcendent, Foster and Hopkins are incandescent, and the story is deep, multilayered and more relevant than ever today. It's just hard to beat! That doesn't diminish Manhunter, but let's not be Cox > Hopkins Hannibal contrarians here either. :carcus:

Another interesting thing about "the trilogy", other than being made by different great filmmakers with completely different styles and casts, is they're all so emblematic of their times: Manhunter the mid-80s, Silence the early-90s (mostly in its themes, otherwise it's more timeless than the others), and Hannibal the early-2000s. Even Hannibal Rising is an excellent example of mid to late 2000s direct to video quality IP cash-in bullshit! And of course the franchise transitioned to prestige TV in the 2010s, as one does.

That's so true. Maybe "better" wasn't the right word. I asked because while there's no denying Silence, I personally prefer Manhunter, even putting aside the Cox/Hopkins debate. Silence is transcendent, especially when it came out and it got all the awards and praise it deserved at that time (it's a tragedy about what it did to Demme's career though). But so was Manhunter in many ways and that had the bad luck of coming out in a year filled with great movies and being overshadowed a few years later by Silence's much more slick and polished production, with a great score and big names. I don't think this counts as being contrarian either. I saw Silence when I was very young and was told by my mother beforehand that it was a masterpiece and one of the greatest movies ever made. So even at that young age I had bad weight of high expectations going in. As opposed to the thrill of digging through an old box of poorly kept vhs tapes and discovering something for myself, which may have impacted my preference on this one.

Man I'm loving this quarantine right now lol. Last night I watched Climax, Gaspar Noe's latest movie, which I loved as I do all his stuff, even though I felt appropriately icky and gross after. Then I watched the first film in The Human Condition trilogy, which I will continue with tonight.

Anyone else have a Criterion Channel account? I was never able to build a big collection of their expensive sets so I'm loving this service.
 
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Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
That's so true. Maybe "better" wasn't the right word. I asked because while there's no denying Silence, I personally prefer Manhunter, even putting aside the Cox/Hopkins debate. Silence is transcendent, especially when it came out and it got all the awards and praise it deserved at that time (it's a tragedy about what it did to Demme's career though). But so was Manhunter in many ways and that had the bad luck of coming out in a year filled with great movies and being overshadowed a few years later by Silence's much more slick and polished production, with a great score and big names. I don't think this counts as being contrarian either. I saw Silence when I was very young and was told by my mother beforehand that it was a masterpiece and one of the greatest movies ever made. So even at that young age I had bad weight of high expectations going in. As opposed to the thrill of digging through an old box of poorly kept vhs tapes and discovering something for myself, which may have impacted my preference on this one.

Manhunter is your favorite, nothing wrong with that, though it definitely shows its age these days like a lot of our old favorites. I don't remember how I got into the books or films exactly, probably heard my dad making some joke about "Hannibal the Cannibal", got intrigued and followed up from there so it felt like I was discovering all those stories myself. I still have a soft spot for the novel Hannibal, despite its... challenges, and wish the Silence crew had persevered to make it the best movie it could be instead of abandoning it to people that didn't care as much as they apparently did. I mean, the film as is pretty much addresses their concerns about the violence and the relationship of the leads anyway, and the old team could have certainly elevated it all to a higher place.

BTW, have you watched the Hannibal TV show? The first two seasons are basically a 24 episode prequel to Manhunter. =)
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
I don't remember how I got into the books or films exactly, probably heard my dad making some joke about "Hannibal the Cannibal",

Haha, now that you mention it I distinctly remember the chain reaction starting with me asking my parents whether Hannibal the Cannibal was a real person.

BTW, have you watched the Hannibal TV show? The first two seasons are basically a 24 episode prequel to Manhunter. =)

I started to a week or two ago but lost interest during the first episode after only a few scenes. I really have a hard time getting invested with anything on tv these days. That's my cross to bear. But I should try again.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Haha, now that you mention it I distinctly remember the chain reaction starting with me asking my parents whether Hannibal the Cannibal was a real person.

I remember confusion about that too! Like was my dad referencing a real person? The way he spoke about him didn't make that clear. Was it based on someone real, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer? That would seem to follow (turns out Harris based him on a man by the name of Dr. Alfredo Ballí Treviño). This confusion was a real phenomenon when the Lecter character came to major pop culture prominence in the 90s, but now it'd be like wondering if Batman was a real person.

I started to a week or two ago but lost interest during the first episode after only a few scenes. I really have a hard time getting invested with anything on tv these days. That's my cross to bear. But I should try again.

I hear ya, first episodes are by their very nature nakedly tedious exposition. I will say you should glimpse the potential by the end of the episode though, especially if you recognize some of the names and events being referenced. If it does hook you the arc of that season is incredibly rewarding, especially for what they do with/to Graham. Like I said before, this thing starts out like it's a police procedural with Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham forced into it, seemingly goes off the rails a few episodes in, and by the end you realize it knew what it was doing all along and the procedural aspect was just like another of Hannibal's elaborate feints.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
My wife and I watched the four-hour cut of Cleopatra the other night. Wow. They don’t make them like that anymore. Aside from Elizabeth Taylor’s bad acting, it was a lot of fun to watch. Rex Harrison and Richard Burton were amazing (as usual), and the production design was out of this world.
 
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