Episode 362

Aazealh

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Personally, as I've said I hope they were around before so they weren't like, fly by night, one hit wonder God Hands (but maybe the point will be only one was fit to survive =).

Yeah that's a fair point. Their introduction has an enormous weight, and I don't believe Miura created them as mere token characters. They must have mattered. I plan to explore all the plausible scenarios in a bigger post!

Speaking of which, this could just be coincidence or bias, because these new, old God Hand look pretty weird themselves, but don't you think the current ones seem more stylistically... like Void (like they're almost wearing uniforms designed by him =)? It supports the idea he may have had more of a hand, pun intended, in these ones.

They're pretty freaky to be sure. Whether that's an indication of something plot-wise though, I don't know... I think we'll have to wait and see. Pragmatically, Miura also had to create new designs that wouldn't feel like mere imitations of the iconic God Hand we already know and love. I think everyone agrees he's succeeded.

let me give you a plausible, if not more likely, scenario

Haha, I like your idea but I still don't buy it. I think the parallel between Guts and Gaiseric is just too clear, with the twist that he was the conqueror who got betrayed by his best friend instead of the other way around.

Was he even in the armor in that first scene, or was that his equivalent to Guts' Eclipse experience and the memory was absorbed later?

I think so, it's what that whole procedure implies. Plus, as much of a Skull Knight fan as I am, I wouldn't expect him to have been able to cut down three proto-apostles in one blow as a human without some sort of help.

There is some correlation?

I don't think you should take that too seriously, no. The Sea God's heart also had eyes on it, and it wasn't related to the Idea of Evil. It's probably just a cool, eldritch design.
 
Tremendous episode.

So if the memories were stored in the armor, making it 1000+ years old, it means that Skull Knight is wearing another one which means he didn't die in it or at least got bound to it during the eclipse; I speculate that he took it off at some point, saw he wasn't able to live without given the damage he took and got the current one which assumed the current skeletal shape when he wore it for the first time; obviously if it happened it happened at Flora's since Guts got it there and SK mentioned her saving his life.
About the designs: the guy on the far left looks like Ganishka, at least to me. It makes me think that he was the previous "Void" of the God Hand based on the fact that Ganishka, Griffith, Void have all been leaders in their story and that both Femto and Void have a coat-like cover on them, and his looks similar even if it's not as leathery as theirs, also it would prove it by exclusion, since other parallels are the fertility goddess mirroring Slan, the thing with the sideways mouth, ribs and spine exposed could be a reference to famine like Conrad is to the plague and well the other guy looks closer to Ubik than to Femto/Void.
 

Aazealh

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So if the memories were stored in the armor, making it 1000+ years old, it means that Skull Knight is wearing another one which means he didn't die in it or at least got bound to it during the eclipse

Well yeah, we already knew that. If you'll remember, when we first saw the Berserk's armor, its helmet was shaped like a skull. Then when Guts first put it on, it quickly changed shape to reflect its new wearer. The implication from Schierke was always that the previous owner (Gaiseric) died within the Berserk's armor, with the logical deduction being that the Skull Knight's current armor was designed specifically to allow his dead spirit to continue "wandering the night". This knowledge dates back to literally the day we first saw that panel of Schierke talking about the armor's previous owner in episode 227. So... 17 years ago. :isidro:

We assumed he had been saved on Elfhelm, likely by the Sovereign of the Flower Storm. That may yet turn out to be true, and we got the confirmation last episode that Hanarr's craftmanship is indeed what has allowed him to survive in that state.

I speculate that he took it off at some point, saw he wasn't able to live without given the damage he took and got the current one which assumed the current skeletal shape when he wore it for the first time; obviously if it happened it happened at Flora's since Guts got it there and SK mentioned her saving his life.

The Berserk's armor doesn't sustain one's life. It just allows them to keep fighting without feeling pain or being hindering by their wounds. But it's a pretty barbarious device because all it really does is cause even more damage to the body... What happened is that Gaiseric fought to the death in the Berserk's armor, and then his dead spirit was encased within his current armor. Either transferred from his dead/dying body or possibly even brought back from the Astral World.
 
Well yeah, we already knew that. If you'll remember, when we first saw the Berserk's armor, its helmet was shaped like a skull. Then when Guts first put it on, it quickly changed shape to reflect its new wearer.
I saw it as "this is the default shape it changes if the will of the wearer is abysmally strong" and when he switched armors, realizing he was basically dead, his thirst for revenge got revamped, even because the shapes as skully as they may be are still different.
 

Aazealh

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I saw it as "this is the default shape it changes if the will of the wearer is abysmally strong" and when he switched armors, realizing he was basically dead, his thirst for revenge got revamped, even because the shapes as skully as they may be are still different.

Sorry I'm not sure I get what you mean... But the skull shape is specifically related to Gaiseric, just like the Beast of Darkness is associated with Guts. It's not some generic thing. Also, these are two different armors with two different purposes. It's not like there were two Berserk's armors, and when SK died the one he was wearing transformed to fuse with his dead spirit. That was never a possibility. I hope that makes sense to you!
 
Sorry I'm not sure I get what you mean... But the skull shape is specifically related to Gaiseric, just like the Beast of Darkness is associated with Guts. It's not some generic thing. Also, these are two different armors with two different purposes. It's not like there were two Berserk's armors, and when SK died the one he was wearing transformed to fuse with his dead spirit. That was never a possibility. I hope that makes sense to you!
That the shape Guts found it in is the default shape of the armor, the standard version to make it clear. Also I never said that it transformed to fuse with him but it transformed when he wore it for the first time, it just took the shape as a side effect of Gaeseric's will.
 

Aazealh

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Figured it was the Dwarven army's standard design.

There's no indication these were mass produced. As far as we know there's only a single Berserk's armor and a single armor of the kind the Skull Knight is currently wearing. And we were told just last episode they were both created by Hanarr. We also know that Gaiseric is associated with skulls, that's his thing. We know the Berserk's armor reacts to the Od of its wearer and will change to reflect it. And we know its previous wearer was Gaiseric.
 
I believe the God Hand has a more ambitious objective than that.
I absolutely agree, everything on my part is nothing but speculation. I try to look for parallels wherever I can, but of course the hardest thing to predict for now is what the God Hand even want.
I prefer to think of him as someone who forced the world to fit his view and not just a victim of his circumstances who chose to sacrifice to transcend his sorry fate.
I think there's a possibility for both, in a way. The previous "God Hand" wasn't really the God Hand, since we've seen that back then the hand imagery didn't exist yet, which was surely intentional on Miura's part, they probably weren't called the God Hand back then. So Void might not have been the one to create the group completely, but he could've been the one to make it into the God Hand. Maybe the group existed, but it was much weaker, and Void was the one to make it into what it became.
On the other hand, if the theory that they all ascended together was true, it might make more sense if Griffith tried to create his own God Hand. If there was a way to recruit more than one member at a time, we might get to see Guts trying stop Griffith while Griffith is trying to make not one but four new members at once, making it a do or die moment for Guts.
 
Now that we know what his bash results in, it seems notable that Hanarr chose to trigger this reaction from the armour. Originally it seems like a simple test to see how much control guts may have / how much the armour has progressed towards taking control if him. Given how quickly he does it after Guts arriving / he has clamps ready to go for when the armour takes over its host, it almost seems like he was prepping for this or that it isn’t his first time doing it. It could just be as simple as “Hanarr is badass,” but it does seem like Gedfring may have arranged the encounter. I for one am happy that the event became more than just checking “how far gone” Guts is with the armour. While that remains the case, it also seems intended for Guts to the consequences losing himself as the Berserker. Maybe an unintended consequence for the group is seeing how effective Schierke has gotten at pulling Guts out of that state.

Building off above, it does seem like Gedfring knows that Guts is key for the good guys standing a chance. I think back to the panel of him looking up at Guts when the group first arrived, stating the prophesy involving puck, and now catalyzing Gut’s growth with encounters like this. My guess is that SK, the Gurus, and Danan all know Guts will be important and they know they have to train/ guide him quickly. Yet I’d still be surprised if they already knew about the moonlight boy. The fanboy in me hopes for an “aha” moment when they realize how unique a position he (And casca) are in, and how pretty much their success or failure will determine if free will, elves, and magic users continue to exist :)
 

Aazealh

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Now that we know what his bash results in, it seems notable that Hanarr chose to trigger this reaction from the armour. Originally it seems like a simple test to see how much control guts may have / how much the armour has progressed towards taking control if him. Given how quickly he does it after Guts arriving / he has clamps ready to go for when the armour takes over its host, it almost seems like he was prepping for this or that it isn’t his first time doing it. It could just be as simple as “Hanarr is badass,” but it does seem like Gedfring may have arranged the encounter.

I don't think this was prearranged or anything. Seems pretty clear to me that Hanarr is indeed just a badass. :guts: He saw that Guts didn't seem to truly understand the danger the armor poses, so he casually made it show him the death of the previous person who wore it. As for the clamps, they seem to just be part of his smithing tools (they will no doubt be useful to reforge the Dragon Slayer), and using them to restrain Guts just looks to me like something he did on the spot.
 
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Yep, I also think his character is pretty straightforward in that way, he's a badass artisan, confident enough in his abilities to toy with the Berserk's armor in spite of the danger it poses. He seems to have very clear knowledge of how to manipulate it, and I'm curious to see what more he can do to lessen its nocuous effect on Guts.

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I'm trying (and failing) not to read too much into it, but the white hair in this panel screamed "Griffith!" to me. And I don't know exactly what to takeaway from that. It could be coincidence, as Griffith doesn't exactly have a monopoly on flowing white locks, but the framing of the panel seemed too deliberate. Maybe Miura was hoping we would expect to see someone like Griffith, only for it to turn out to be a woman?

Either way, Griffith was a beautiful conqueror (to really, really simplify it). I wouldn't be surprised if this woman and Gaeseric had a child, and that Griffith descended from said child. Void taking Gaeseric's city and his progeny? Talk about hate! Griffith's ancestry being a mystery allows this to fit. The point of the episode is obviously to show parallels between Gaeseric and Guts, but Griffith has been compared to the Gaeseric (both directly and indreictly) quite a bit throughout the story.

Two "difficulties" with this:

1. There's a much more obvious implied connection between this woman and Danan. She could be connected to both Danan and Grittith, of course, but I'm not sure how much of a stretch connecting Griffith to Danan would be. The possibility that Danan was their daughter would also complicate things.

2. If Gaeseric had a child with this woman, the child certainly wasn't in the city when it got sacrificed. Of course, they could have been elsewhere at the time, or any other number of things.

I haven't been at this for nearly as long as Walter, Aazealh, and others, so I know there's at least a hiccup or two that I've missed that fucks all of this up.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
I read that she resembles Griffith from another but that thought never crossed my mind. The reason people are saying this I think is because Griffith was very beautiful for a man, like a woman. He was fair and slender with his long white hair. And this women is also very beautiful. But I don't see any connection beyond a general feminine beauty. Also it wouldn't make sense for Griffiths character. A commoner who had no claim to the throne and no special birthright fulfilled his rise and fall narrative to become Femto of the God Hand due to the thread weaving of forces beyond. Giving him a special lineage connection to these ancient events would needlessly complicate the already spotty recollection we have now.
 
Now what we don't know is whether Void was reborn alone as the newest member of an existing group, if they were all reborn at once. I speculated about that second possibility earlier in the thread. My reason for considering it is that I think that makes Void more significant as a character than if he's just the guy who happens to be the leader at the moment. I like the idea of him being the originator of the God Hand, and not just another guy chosen by causality. I prefer to think of him as someone who forced the world to fit his view and not just a victim of his circumstances who chose to sacrifice to transcend his sorry fate. But at the moment there is no certainty. Tomorrow I'll explore possible scenarios for a preexisting God Hand and what that could mean for the bigger picture.

I have a theory that can maybe square this idea of Void being significant while also being the "wise man" who was reborn at this event.

In this theory, we have the wise man summoning 4 "angels" as the story has been told, but I wonder if these 4 "angels" were perhaps different in character than the Godhand as we know them now. They would still be products of the Idea of Evil, but I could see them being less focused on human "desire", and more indifferent about mankind.

This part of the theory leans a bit on the design of these old "angels". They seem a bit more sedate or stoic in appearance than the newer members. 3 of the 4 appear to have solid masks as their faces, unable to express much. And the other one has no face except a mouth.

Compare this with Slan, Ubik and Femto, all who have human-ish dynamic faces. Conrad is a bit of an outlier here since he seems to have his expression frozen, but I don't know, maybe he was the first post-Void attempt at a Godhand?

Anyway, the theory would have the "wise man" using his knowledge of magic and his desperation to somehow call these 4 angels and turn himself into an angel as well. He would do this in a way different from what we know happened to Griffith, but the end result is that he is gifted immense knowledge and power. He then uses his newfound knowledge and power to focus the purpose of the angels in a different direction, immediately inventing the brand and the idea of sacrifice (and eventually maybe apostles/beherits themselves?). He would determine he needs to reshape these angels into a "Godhand" (or guardians of desire) to direct causality more effectively and meet the endgame of Idea of Evil (and/or perhaps himself). This leads him to destroy the angels (turning them into crimson beherits?) and thus why they no longer exist (count me as skeptical that Skull Knight was able to kill 4(!) beings of their magnitude).

There's a lot of fudging that could happen with any part of this theory, but the main idea is that Void is still the "wise man" but that his birth caused a change in the modus operandi of the Idea of Evil. This could also explain why the fuzzy monsters in this episode look distinct from apostles as we know them.
 

Walter

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In this theory, we have the wise man summoning 4 "angels" as the story has been told, but I wonder if these 4 "angels" were perhaps different in character than the Godhand as we know them now. They would still be products of the Idea of Evil, but I could see them being less focused on human "desire", and more indifferent about mankind.

In the Tower of Conviction story told by Mozgus, it only mentions an angel, not 4. The 4-5 angels story is about the Tower of Rebirth.
 

Aazealh

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I'm trying (and failing) not to read too much into it, but the white hair in this panel screamed "Griffith!" to me. And I don't know exactly what to takeaway from that. It could be coincidence, as Griffith doesn't exactly have a monopoly on flowing white locks, but the framing of the panel seemed too deliberate. Maybe Miura was hoping we would expect to see someone like Griffith, only for it to turn out to be a woman?

I don't know man, I just don't really see it. It's just a dramatic shot of a blond-haired woman (not necessarily white hair).


Not sure why this comes up so much, but Gaeseric isn't a correct way to spell that name. It's Gaiseric.

There's a lot of fudging that could happen with any part of this theory, but the main idea is that Void is still the "wise man" but that his birth caused a change in the modus operandi of the Idea of Evil. This could also explain why the fuzzy monsters in this episode look distinct from apostles as we know them.

Haha, lots of fudging indeed... I mean, there's no real doubt Void was the wise man, that's not the hard part to figure out! The difficulty is into making all the pieces, new and old, fit perfectly together in a way that's compelling.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I'm trying (and failing) not to read too much into it, but the white hair in this panel screamed "Griffith!" to me. And I don't know exactly what to takeaway from that. It could be coincidence, as Griffith doesn't exactly have a monopoly on flowing white locks, but the framing of the panel seemed too deliberate. Maybe Miura was hoping we would expect to see someone like Griffith, only for it to turn out to be a woman?

If there was any intent behind it, I think this was the extent of it. I mean, my mind also immediately went to Griffith when I saw the hair and cape, like was this God Hand memory morphing into a berserker vision of Guts grabbing hold of him (he was lashing out, after all), but then you see the Berserk's Armor is as it was when Skully wore it and of course the next page dispels any such notion the person is Griffith. Of course, it could also just be pure coincidence, plenty of curly blonde-haired women's hair has resembled Griffith's, but the fact it's just "white" hair and cape when Miura could have made a different pose or any number of accessories visible to clear it up may suggest an intentional fake out, but again, no way to know and probably not an important connotation in any case.

Unless you think it's foreshadowing this moment...


Grifdeath.jpg confirmed!? :troll:
 
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I'm personally onboard with the idea that all the Godhand we see here are ascending or have ascended to Godhand status at the same time. I don't necessarily think were seeing an eclipse event happen here, and I'm also not convinced what were seeing is taking place outside of the corpeal world. I think both flash backs we see are independent of one another, with the second possibly being Gaiseric's fallen city hence the giant brand in the background. The girl in his arms looks strikingly similar to Danann, and the jewelry she's wearing bears an elvish resemblance. So much to unpack here!

One topic I haven't seen too many people talking about is when the typically red eyes of the Berserker armor went dark or "turned off" so to speak. This happened at the exact moment Gaiseric dies during the flash back and Guts is then only brought back by Schierke. Could it be that the armor showing Guts Gaiseric's death also in a way made Guts experience the death for himself?
 
The difficulty is into making all the pieces, new and old, fit perfectly together in a way that's compelling.

Yeah, let's not even start on how we now know that Gaiseric died 1000+ years ago in the berserker armor, yet 300 year-old Zodd immediately recognizes it as his old armor.
 
One topic I haven't seen too many people talking about is when the typically red eyes of the Berserker armor went dark or "turned off" so to speak. This happened at the exact moment Gaiseric dies during the flash back and Guts is then only brought back by Schierke. Could it be that the armor showing Guts Gaiseric's death also in a way made Guts experience the death for himself?

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not so sure the last vision of him holding the woman was the exact moment he died, unless his heart gave out, or something. The timeline of those visions is a bit confusing, but I don't think they necessarily happened in the same exact order Guts sees them in.

For example, the vision of him holding the dying woman in the aftermath of a disaster looks like something that would have happened after the proto-Eclipse scene, but it could also be the other way around. If you look at that first vision, the space is empty, silent. Void and the others are perched at the top, as if waiting for something, or someone. As soon as they see him coming, those creatures start creeping out to attack, but he slashes them down on his way to the big five. It looks like an enraged Gaiseric in the Berserk's armor going after the ones responsible, upon seeing what happened to his city and loved ones. Was he there during all of it, did he arrive too late, we don't know, but it could be interpreted in more than one way and order.

As for the dark eyes, it could simply be an artistic choice to better show us that the armor suddenly went into a "dead" or tranquil state, which would correspond with the atmospehere of the vision Guts was seeing, but doesn't necessarily have to signify a real death happened at that moment.
 
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