The problem here is that your theory has practically no solid ground at all, you see? That's why it's not very strong itself. If it was fan fiction it'd be perfectly Ok. And like CnC justly pointed out, it's all stuff that's been discussed and theorized again and again in the past. In any case, as you can see the "flawless ground" wasn't attained here. I'm sorry but I'm going to extensively quote you again, for clarity's sake about the various points and what I have to say about them. Don't hesitate to just respond to my post as a whole if you want though.A.C said:i didn't intend to write a fanfic so to speak, or come up with something completely solid so the rest of you wouldn't have to think, because then it would be hard to avoid the "flawless ground" i attempted to establish with the direction of my idea.
Alright. But then, you have to consider that everything about SK in the manga goes against the idea that he's some kind of fallen member of the God Hand. Assuming otherwise decredibilizes your suppositions from the start, and rewording them won't change anything in that regard. I'm not going to keep repeating this if you don't want to hear it, but much like "Griffith no More!" I fail to see the interest in pursuing unlikely scenarios, especially if your intent was originally to make others think about possibilities (as this is all old news). The rest of my comments on your ideas is secondary to this fact, and could even be ruled out as nitpicking on details since this part about SK is so problematic to begin with.A.C said:i'm assuming SK is Gaiseric, and the wise man is Void.
Yes, but as likely as it is, that's still only an assumption (that Void was the wiseman and the first member of the current God Hand).A.C said:from doing the math we come to the conclusion that Void became a Godhand (the first) 867 years ago
I'm sorry but you're again relying on shaky logic here (as well as your interpretation of the English wording in whatever translation you're using). She says the story itself is around a thousand years old. Not the events in it. The story obligatorily appeared after the events it depicts, therefore what you're saying isn't possible.A.C said:from Charlotte's story we learn that a man named Gaiseric the conqueror appeared in what is a story that is "around 1000 years old". even if the story starts around 1000 years ago (and she clearly starts with Gaiseric appearing) then that doesn't necessarily mean the entire story takes place in the same year.
Flora wasn't a member of the God Hand, and she's lived far longer. So this doesn't really mean anything, especially since SK's a pretty special character any way you look at it.A.C said:to be able to live over 100 years Gaiseric had to have been something special, like a Godhand.
I just meant it's closer as far as the gap goes, only 83 years away. It's not really important here.A.C said:also, i don't know why you think -1083 years would be closer to Charlotte's estimation of the story.
Well you may be "pretty sure," but that doesn't change what I said. Why Miura wouldn't have "confused" the story? I mean the fact we're still wondering about it so many years after this part of the story was published seems a pretty good reason for him to do it, don't you think? And it's not so much confusing than leaving doors open for more possibilities. Besides if he didn't want it to be confusing, he would have made it so Charlotte said a number without Judo reacting to it. It's alright if you think that illustration's wrong, but in themselves your doubts don't constitute a proof of anything. If Charlotte's recollection about that part is wrong, everything else could also be, and once again, she's by far the most educated on the matter.A.C said:now, for the "angels". i'm pretty sure that they were only 4 because otherwise Miura wouldn't have had Judeau confuse the story by commenting on it. i think the illustration is bull, and just symbolize what Charlotte and the others are visualizing in their head, or how some artist interpreted the story in a book that Charlotte read. whatever. it's not really accurate.
How does it seal anything exactly? Take a look at Griffith's occultation ceremony. The sun was clearly visible in the sky, even during the solar eclipse. There were some clouds, but the sky was mostly clear. Then there's the tornado. These two descriptions don't strike me as very resembling. Anyway, didn't you just say that this description was bullshit? It works for one thing but not for another, eh?A.C said:the story tells that Gaiseric's capital disappeared in a single night under clouds and thunder, which pretty much seals the deal that it was the intervention of Godhand.
But the Idea of Evil does have a plan of some sort from what we can tell, it's not just doing things randomly. And It manipulates causality, so one can't go without the other. Also, causality doesn't equal history.A.C said:now, i have decided to scrap the "evil gets stronger over time" idea and that Idea has a plan. i don't think Idea has a plan. instead i will focus on causality, and history as a spiral.
"They" feast on it? You mean the God Hand as a whole has fun, basically? But then they'd have no reason to try to kill Gaiseric or vice versa, since they all profit from that time, right? Also, how do they feast if they don't have material bodies? And from what we know of Gaiseric's time, he did more good than bad. He united a lot of different factions and put an end to constant wars, and apparently tried to build things, i.e. his capital. After his death, things returned to their previous situation and wars resumed.A.C said:i think that every 1000 years the Godhand of that time recieves a body and the following years they feast on the world. it happened when Gaiseric ruled.
Why? For what reason, and caused by what? If it's recurring, and it "always" ended before, then there's been a super wiseman everytime?A.C said:however, this period always ends at some point, and the world reverts back to it's former state.
It's Slan that says so, and that doesn't necessarily imply that age will end. By the way, why haven't we heard of a past age of darkness? Aren't they supposed to be recurring? Because we've never heard of it before, not even in Gaiseric's legend.A.C said:at the end of volume 13 the Apostles/Godhand says that "later people shall call this the age of darkness." i emphasize on "later" because it seemed to suggest that the age of darkness will pass and that the Apostles/Godhand already know it, because it's what always happens every 1000 years.
Hahaha, now this is what I call fan fiction. So the wiseman was moved from Albion to the capital, right? That directly contradicts what Mozgus told Farnese about it. Also, Gaiseric still had his beherit? That's very strange, because Griffith lost his during the Eclipse, and haven't had it since. Not that he would have needed it as Femto anyway. I don't see how Gaiseric could possibly have had a beherit at that time according to your theory. You're also once again saying that there were 6 members of the God Hand. Being incarnated doesn't mean you're out of the club, it's not a demotion. If Void became a member then he was the sixth, since Gaiseric was the fifth. This doesn't make sense. Anyway, we're told by the legend that Gaiseric's capital was destroyed by the elements. So alright, the people died, but why the city? And everybody in the city died? That makes a lot of people. Now, you're talking about a kingdom being destroyed. First off, Gaiseric was an emperor, not a king. Second, it's only the capital he had built that was destroyed, or are you suggesting it was otherwise? In that case it would contradict the legend as well as historical evidence in general.A.C said:the wise man, moved to the capital by Gaiseric, was finally going to be put to death when the unsuspected happened. Gaiseric's red Beherit, proudly worn around his neck, fell off and into the hands of the wise man. this process triggered the summoning of the Godhand at the hands of the wise man, who sacrificed the only thing dear to him, Gaiseric's people (not Gaiseric himself). this was within the flow of causality and the sacrifice was granted, but Gaiseric himself was put off by this. suddenly his kindom was destroyed by his own kinsmen. he was overcome with rage and killed them all off, only to be stripped of his Godhand status because of it. the Age of Darkness was over, but Gaiseric would not accept it. he refused to perish in favor of the new generation of Godhand and instead started opposing Godhand by joining with the forces of good and became the friend of Flora. he was human again, and he doesn't like causality very much.
Now, the part about some members of the God Hand attacking their comrade still doesn't make sense, and never will I'm afraid. Same about how he killed them all by himself after they destroyed the city, but spared the newest member for some unknown reason. I'd also like to know how he was "stripped" of his status, since he just did as he wanted. That's the rule, right? And why would he be stripped of his power since he just defended himself anyway? He's not the one that fucked up here. Also, once again, that "age of darkness" during Gaiseric's reign isn't mentioned anywhere. Rather, his rule put an end to constant wars, and there was "feasting" and all that if I'm following you. Apart from that, are the "forces of good" supposed to be idiots? Why would they allow one as evil as that guy in their ranks (assuming they have ranks or exist at all as a coherent group)? Also, Flora's story with SK seems to have begun early from what he told Guts and Schierke, not after 150 years and an end of the world. He even compares the two of them with Guts and Schierke. That doesn't really support what you're saying. And it's still extremely unlikely that Flora would ally herself with an ex-member of the God Hand, no matter what happened to him. Lastly, why would SK hate causality? It's not like it's a living entity or something, and he talks about it in completely different terms from what you seem to imply. That makes your whole argument look dubious in regard to what's in the manga.
That's tornado huge, but it doesn't look like it englobed the whole lake. Nevertheless, I disagree about the capital of an empire spanning a whole continent "easily fitting" inside it. Also, that once again contradicts the legend, both the illustration and the description of what happened. And in terms of human scale, a few dozen soldiers can't compare with thousands of people.A.C said:note that i think in terms of scale an Occultation could be possible since Griffith's occultation happened over a huge lake, and a city would easily fit within the same Tornado.
That symbol represents Griffith at best, not the God Hand itself. And it was around long before Griffith was born. Anyway, that doesn't equal to worshipping the God Hand at all. They worship a fictitious God, like I said, and from all the indications we have it's a monotheist religion. So no, they don't worship the God Hand, no matter how you look at it.A.C said:as for God, the Holy See don't know it, but they are worshipping Godhand by looking up to:
1. the Hawk
Who said they worship these angels? Mozgus just mentions it as a story about the tower, nothing more. The angels in question aren't defined, and we're not even sure those that destroyed Gaiseric's capital were the God Hand anyway. Are you justifying assumptions with other assumptions here? What's sure is that the 4 elemental kings are in their scriptures. This can't be said of the God Hand.A.C said:2. the "angels" that punished Gaiseric
They condemn witches, but then again Flora told Farnese she never took the life of a real witch. And their scriptures actually mention elemental beings (magic), only under different names. As far as good magic goes, that's also debatable. Trolls aren't what I'd call good magic, nor Ganishka's displays of sorcery. In an effort to protect themselves, out of fear and such, they could have gotten to condemn any kind of magic over time. And does that benefit the God Hand? Slan fuels heretic cults (which the Holy See pursues restlessly, and which is where they get their "witches") and seems pretty familiar with trolls are ogres.A.C said:3. ignoring/condemning witches and good magic.
No they didn't. That doesn't really support your theory. It doesn't really make sense either anyway. The Brand is the Brand, there's only one. And it was already like that before Void became part of the God Hand, still following what you say. The branded skulls at the bottom of the pit are the proof.A.C said:did Gaiseric's generation have "the brand of the Skull" on their victim's?
Well, the "brand of the skull" is not really a valid possibility anyway. All of this has already been discussed in the past.A.C said:depending on which, we could determine Griffith's role as part of a spiral, or as the coming of age that Godhand has always wished for. there is no basis that he is anything special beyond the other generations of Godhand though, especially if we consider the possibility of the "brand of the Skull".
Uhhh no, I didn't.A.C said:also, you said that when someone is made a Godhand their soul is destroyed in the process.
If their souls were destroyed then they wouldn't exist. I think you're a bit confused here. Also, "Griffith" protected Casca because the Demon Child in him made him do it. He was surprised at his own actions, and suddenly decided to leave after it happened. It's not like good old Femto in there saved her life out of sympathy. Also, for all we know he took Charlotte with him because she's a useful tool to become king, we have yet to see what he'll do with her in the future. This all doesn't prove anything in particular, except that Griffith's story is pretty spicy.A.C said:the Godhand, of course, is a different deal but i still think their souls are corrupt rather than destroyed. look at the current Griffith protecting Casca and Charlotte for example.
Well yeah, that's why it's hard to come up with a solid theory on what happened.A.C said:ok, if Gaiseric isn't a previous Godhand then the theory would have to be rewritten in several places, and alot of problems will appear.
He could have lived long for another reason. And similarly, we don't know for sure that an incarnated member of the God Hand can live longer than a normal man.A.C said:if Gaiseric wasn't a Godhand, then he wouldn't have lived for 130 years
Ok, I think I forgot to point this out in my previous post (or not?), but you're basing yourself on mistranslations here. Gaiseric wasn't a "war celebrating bastard," what does that even mean? In the legend it's said that there are no documents left mentioning his past, and that he was called "the emperor who brought death" because he was merciless to his enemies (What general isn't? Oh yeah, the new Griffith, the eternal exception.), but also because he always wore a skull helmet in battle. That's all. And his reign brought an end to the fighting, so after that there's no talk of plagues, of "love for suffering," or of an "age of darkness." As far as we know, the only bad thing about him was the heavy taxes and the torture of the wiseman (assuming the wiseman didn't deserve it). The city was apparently decadent, but that's nothing out of the ordinary for normal men.A.C said:Gaiseric would have been a war celebrating bastard, who had all the love for suffering of an Apostle, while living in an age of Darkness and plagues but still being a human.
I'm still wondering about that wiseman's reason for loving that city so much though. Maybe he was its architect or something? The city only being collateral damage to the execution of thousands of citizens seems strange to me. Whatever though.A.C said:until his capital becomes the sacrifice of a wise man he imprisoned in the tower
Pretty much. And the fact SK is most probably not an ex-member of the God Hand makes it all the more complicated.A.C said:something happened to these 4 Godhands but they couldn't have been killed by a human Gaiseric. the wise man, presumably, became a Godhand. who recieved the body? how did they perish? why didn't they put their plan into action if they were now 5 and had gotten rid of Gaiseric (who would have been the Ganishka of that time, except only human) suddenly we have more questions than we started out with.
I'm going to quote myself out of laziness here:A.C said:which line? what is the correct translation for "Invocation of Doom"?
As for where it appears, it's the line Walter's avatar speaks in volume 12. Look for that picture. Void also says so in volume 3, after Femto blasts Guts in a wall.Aazealh said:Its meaning literally is "Ceremony of Calling Down Evil," which can also be translated as "Ceremony of Calling Evil" or "Ceremony of Invoking Evil." There's the word ceremony in it which isn't in Dark Horse's translation for some reason, and the kanji used for evil is "魔" and just means evil, devil, demon, etc but not "doom." So to answer your question, there's no connotation in Japanese that could lead someone to translate it like that.