apostles you'd like to create

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
What's with some u sayin Griffith and Roshinu weren't evil?  They aren't as sadistic and cruel as some of the other villains, but they're still quite evil.  Roshinu has killed countless ppl for nothing more than enjoyment, and Griffith has sacrificed his friends in order the satisfy his hunger for power.  They aren't pure 100% evil like Wilde, but they're evil enough.  That's like sayin the murderers on death row aren't such bad ppl, especially since Griffith and Roshinu have done worse things.  
Uh oh... Were gettin into familiar territory, eh BSOM members? (for those who have no idea what Im talking about, I dont blame you. On the old Berserk BBS: BSOM, there was a thread 'Griffiths intentions'. It spanned over 200 posts, and it more or less ended in a war. It was all about ethics, which is completely UNDEBATABLE material since there is no definitive "right or wrong" in Berserk. But please, if anyone wants to get into this subject again, PLEASE make another thread.)
 

puella

Berserk forever
Depending how you define evil and pure.
indeed.

Looking blindly for happiness and stability with complete disregarded for the lives of others isn’t what most would deem a pure quality (pure evil maybe).  Anyway, isn’t that basically the same story with all the Apostles, I think she’s no different or any less “evil” for it, she enjoyed the power to kill as much as the rest. I don’t think she’s pure at all, good or evil, she’s complicated, like Griffith, like Guts, like all the major characters we yearn to categorize but really can’t if we look at everything carefully.
yup, yup, yup
in addition, "pure" doesn't mean to me "good"
I think Griffith, Zodd, Roshinu are pure for their dream and desire.
It's not they are totally evil but they are too pure that give them motivation. they are blindly trying to get their  "icecream".
but they have the distinguishing difference from Guts; If Guts were in the same situation, he wouldn't choose to dump everything(including betrayal and sacrificing others) to get his own dream or desire.
This makes Guts much stronger than Griffith and the two.
I think Griffith did,does and will think highly of Guts even better than himself at this very point.
Griffith do know how Guts and himself are.
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
If Guts were in the same situation, he wouldn't choose to dump everything(including betrayal and sacrificing others) to get his own dream or desire. This makes Guts much stronger than Griffith and the two.

Exactly what I think! Griffith chose the easy way out...Griffith cheated death in a cowardly and selfish manner.

For now on I will refer to Grffith as chickenheart :D
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Exactly what I think! Griffith chose the easy way out...Griffith cheated death in a cowardly and selfish manner.

For now on I will refer to Grffith as chickenheart  :D
Jesus Christ in a birch canoe…

Guts already did dump everything for his own desires and dream, TWICE! First, when he left the Hawks (dumped everything and betrayed Griffith). Second, when he abandoned Casca for his dream of vengeance (he ran away to go swing his sword and left Casca holding the bag, betrayed her in her moment of need). He hasn’t gotten past it either since the Beast still tempts him.

Why must such fleshed-out, complex and well-developed characters be reduced to charactertures of good and evil?

-Griffith

P.S. Objective, not subjective!
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
Jesus Christ in a birch canoe…

Guts already did dump everything for his own desires and dream, TWICE! First, when he left the Hawks (dumped everything and betrayed Griffith).  Second, when he abandoned Casca for his dream of vengeance (he ran away to go swing his sword and left Casca holding the bag, betrayed her in her moment of need). He hasn’t gotten past it either since the Beast still tempts him.

Why must such fleshed-out, complex and well-developed characters be reduced to charactertures of good and evil?

-Griffith

P.S. Objective, not subjective!

Yeah, but Guts' choice didnt exactly kill in the hundreds... :p
 

puella

Berserk forever
Jesus Christ in a birch canoe…

Guts already did dump everything for his own desires and dream, TWICE! First, when he left the Hawks (dumped everything and betrayed Griffith).  Second, when he abandoned Casca for his dream of vengeance (he ran away to go swing his sword and left Casca holding the bag, betrayed her in her moment of need). He hasn’t gotten past it either since the Beast still tempts him.
I see it's neither betrayal nor equivalent to Griffith's though you didn't say the latter.
Guts helped Griffith out as much as he could and when the time came, he left Griffith because he thought there's no need to stay with Griffith. Guts might think Griffith woudn't need him any more while Griffith did always need Guts.
Most of all, it was Griffith who had an influence on Guts in finding out his dream by saying "A true friend on my level"
At this point, I think the fact that Guts left Griffith is,in a way, development of true friendship.
Is this "dumping everything" or "betrayal"?

it's true Guts left Caska when she needed him most.
but it's never betrayal. did Guts leave her for his own purpose?
Guts should revenge on Griffith for all the Hawk members including Caska as well as for himself.
then you mean Guts should have stayed with insane Caska giving up his revenge or taken her with him in order not to betray her?
Moreover if Guts leaves her in Elfheim, is it his second betrayal for Caska?
and we should think if Caska didn't go insane, she herself would possibly want to revenge on Griffith. It is like one soldier left his wounded friend in some safe place at the battlefield and he goes for fighting against his enemy taking over his friend's share.

Guts gave careful consideration to them: for Griffith he thought Griffith might not need him any more though it's totally wrong.
For Caska, he thought Godo's cave was the safest place for her because he couldn't stay with her and take her with him.
What else could he choose?
the one who dumps everythig never cares about others' state.
Thus, in my humble opinion, it's just "left", neither betrayal nor dumping everything.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Yeah, but Guts' choice didnt exactly kill in the hundreds... :p
What’s body count have to do with it, Guts has killed thousands of mercenaries just like the Hawks.  Were talking about the concept of betrayal and all I wanted to prove was that the above statement about Guts was false. Don't just write cute things, prove me wrong.

I see it's neither betrayal nor equivalent to Griffith's though you didn't say the latter.
“Degree of betrayal” wasn’t my point, the point is that the statement about Guts not betraying friends and dumping them in the same vein as Griffith is false.

Guts helped Griffith out as much as he could and when the time came, he left Griffith because he thought there's no need to stay with Griffith. Guts might think Griffith woudn't need him any more while Griffith did always need Guts.
Most of all, it was Griffith who had an influence on Guts in finding out his dream by saying "A true friend on my level"
At this point, I think the fact that Guts left Griffith is,in a way, development of true friendship.
Is this "dumping everything" or "betrayal"?
I’m simply using the same terms you were, it could be betrayal, and it could not be, but it’s the same as Griffith either way you look at it.  Did Griffith betray Guts at the Eclipse, or the Hawks? He simply used the Hawks for their designated purpose, his dream (just as Guts has killed and let so many people die for his goals).  Also, Guts came back, he betrayed Griffith’s friendship (by their definition), he shouldn’t have even been there, that’s what Griffith said he couldn’t forgive Guts for.  Also, in the statement of friendship, Griffith said a true friend, someone at his level, would even kill him to get their dream, so, shouldn’t Griffith do the same if he was Guts’ friend? By the same logic you used, Griffith is no guiltier than Guts.

it's true Guts left Caska when she needed him most.
but it's never betrayal. did Guts leave her for his own purpose?
Guts should revenge on Griffith for all the Hawk members including Caska as well as for himself.
then you mean Guts should have stayed with insane Caska giving up his revenge or taken her with him in order not to betray her?
Moreover if Guts leaves her in Elfheim, is it his second betrayal for Caska?
and we should think if Caska didn't go insane, she herself would possibly want to revenge on Griffith. It is like one soldier left his wounded friend in some safe place at the battlefield and he goes for fighting against his enemy taking over his friend's share.

Guts gave careful consideration to them: for Griffith he thought Griffith might not need him any more though it's totally wrong.
For Caska, he thought Godo's cave was the safest place for her because he couldn't stay with her and take her with him.
What else could he choose?
the one who dumps everythig never cares about others' state.
Thus, in my humble opinion, it's just "left", neither betrayal nor dumping everything.
You’re rewriting the story, it was written as a betrayal, Guts himself realized what he did was wrong (funny, he can acknowledge it, yet the fans can’t). Godo and him had a big discussion about it Vol. 17.  Guts didn’t go looking to avenge Casca or the Hawks, he wasn’t thinking about them, he was thinking about himself and his pain.  He could have chosen to stay and help Casca through her problems (at least try), instead he selfishly went looking for revenge in vain.


People think Griffith is so bad, yet they ignore the fact that Guts is chief disciple to his philosophy. Although, if you really want to defend Guts’ integritym, you could point out that at least he’s making an effort to change (hint hint, wink wink) rather than twisting facts to paint Guts in a more positive light.

-Griffith

P.S. Don’t like it, bitch to Miura, he wrote the story. ;D
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
Little particular that none considers. Gutts, Caska, Judd and Pipin risked their lives to free Griffith from the prison. If they didn't Judd, Pipin and lot of hawks will be alive now and Gutts and Caska will be definitely better.
Clearly gratitude is not one of Griffith strong points
ncode_devil.gif
 

puella

Berserk forever
I’m simply using the same terms you were, it could be betrayal, and it could not be, but it’s the same as Griffith either way you look at it.  Did Griffith betray Guts at the Eclipse, or the Hawks? He simply used the Hawks for their designated purpose, his dream (just as Guts has killed and let so many people die for his goals).  Also, Guts came back, he betrayed Griffith’s friendship (by their definition), he shouldn’t have even been there, that’s what Griffith said he couldn’t forgive Guts for.  Also, in the statement of friendship, Griffith said a true friend, someone at his level, would even kill him to get their dream, so, shouldn’t Griffith do the same if he was Guts’ friend? By the same logic you used, Griffith is no guiltier than Guts.
I didn't say "guilty". but if you want to talk about my logic, it is natural Guts felt guilty for leaving Griffith and I think he did especially when he found totally ruined Griffith in the dungeon.
Even if Griffith did that betrayal to be at Guts' level out of a true friendship, it couldn't be said Griffith is no guiltier than Guts by my logic.


You’re rewriting the story, it was written as a betrayal, Guts himself realized what he did was wrong (funny, he can acknowledge it, yet the fans can’t). Godo and him had a big discussion about it Vol. 17.  Guts didn’t go looking to avenge Casca or the Hawks, he wasn’t thinking about them, he was thinking about himself and his pain.  He could have chosen to stay and help Casca through her problems (at least try), instead he selfishly went looking for revenge in vain.
I thought you'd point out this.
It is from Guts' conscience or feeling guilty for her.
If he even said it was betrayal, it was not an objective betrayal but his subjective conception of betrayal, more exactly left her, as a man loving his girl.
I think it is righter he regreted that he couldn't stay with her.
you never think about this? why is this rewriting story?

People think Griffith is so bad, yet they ignore the fact that Guts is chief disciple to his philosophy. Although, if you really want to defend Guts’ integritym, you could point out that at least he’s making an effort to change (hint hint, wink wink) rather than twisting facts to paint Guts in a more positive light.
totally Not to me. I don't go along with a justification or defense that has no clue.
I really do love to think about things in different ways like you.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I didn't say "guilty". but if you want to talk about my logic, it is natural Guts felt guilty for leaving Griffith and I think he did especially when he found out totally ruined Griffith in the dungeon.
Even if Griffith did that betrayal to be at Guts' level out of a true friendship, it couldn't be said Griffith is no guiltier than Guts by my logic.
I don’t mean guilty as in feeling guilty, I’m talking about their actions in the context of their shared ideology. In that context, Griffith has done nothing wrong that Guts has not also done.

I thought you'd point out this.
It is from Guts' concience or Guts' feeling guilty for her.
If he even said it was betrayal, it was not an objective betrayal but his subjective conception of betrayal, more exactly left her, as a man loving his girl.
I think it is righter he regreted that he couldn't stay with her.
you never think about this? why is this rewriting story?
It’s rewriting it because it was made clear that he left for selfish reasons, you’re turning it into some heroic sacrifice he made. It was supposed to be a betrayal, subjectively and objectively, otherwise the whole talk with Godo in vol. 17 and Guts realizations in the cave were just a big waste of time (is Miura wrong?). He left Casca behind to pursue his dream, he wasn’t thinking about her at all. It’s like if I said Griffith sacrificed the Hawks for their own good.

totally Not to me. I don't go along with a justification or defense has no clue.
I really do love to think about things in different ways like you.
I know, you're cool, puells. That was aimed at those that don’t respond to my points but just randomly bash Griffith because they can’t dispute what I’m saying. It really bugs me because it distracts from the strength of my arguments while hiding the fact that they really have none (there's a prime example right above your post, it doesn't even pretend to relate to what we're talking about as it doesn't compare Griffith to Guts). It's been like that all the way back to the BSOM days, that's why I'm so grumpy sometimes. ;)

-Griffith
 
Hmm, I don't think u can really look at Gatts's leaving of Griffith and Griffith's sacrifice in the same way.

Even though Griffith and Gatts were friends, Gatts was still somewhat of an inferior. Though it was only mentioned a couple times, it was pretty clear that Griffith "owned" Gatts. Overall, it was a pretty selfish and destructive relationship. Gatts's did the right thing in leaving; he had to become his own man sooner or later. I don't really consider leaving someone a betrayal; almost all relationships come to an end sooner or later. Sacrificing ppl to demons on the other hand and damning them to eternal hell....

As for y I don't like Griffith, it's becuz I don't like power hungry ppl in general. As others have said, Griffith isn't totally evil and as in fact a complex character. Then again, u could say the same for Hitler and Stalin. As far as they were concerned, they were doin the right thing. Anyway, I'm gettin off topic.

Is Griffith still the complex character everyone thinks he is though? As a former member of God Hand, his humanity seems to be almost all more or less gone. I haven't seen anything yet to make me think otherwise. Sure he has feelings for Caska, but that's merely a side effect of takin over the body of her unborn baby.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
One step forward, three steps back…

Hmm, I don't think u can really look at Gatts's leaving of Griffith and Griffith's sacrifice in the same way.
I just did using the ideology of the characters as made known in story.

Even though Griffith and Gatts were friends, Gatts was still somewhat of an inferior. Though it was only mentioned a couple times, it was pretty clear that Griffith "owned" Gatts. Overall, it was a pretty selfish and destructive relationship. Gatts's did the right thing in leaving; he had to become his own man sooner or later. I don't really consider leaving someone a betrayal; almost all relationships come to an end sooner or later. Sacrificing ppl to demons on the other hand and damning them to eternal hell....
All that tells me is your opinion on relationships, it’s a completely subjective interpretation of things and means nothing in relation to the story.

-Griffith
 
*shrugs* Any analyzation u could possibly make is going to have some of your opinions in it. The only way u could actually avoid that is to ask the author yourself what the hell he was thinking, and even then author himself might have different views now than he did when he was writing this.

I was merely pointing out something that made the situation different. Trying to be free of someone who owned u isn't exactly a betrayal, but that depends on how u view betrayal. In that regards, my word is as good as your's.
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
In my opinion, Griffith was definutely mot souless. He had a great and supposedly unachievable goal ahead of him. It takes alot of will power and determination to realize any dream, especially the one he had. Griffith had all the key attributes to achieve this one goal. Griffith was intelligent, inspiring and commanded an aura of respect on and off the battlefield. He was very resourceful and cunning. Not to mention he was an expert in military tactics and was a deadly swordsmen. The perfect commander.

What’s body count have to do with it, Guts has killed thousands of mercenaries just like the Hawks.  Were talking about the concept of betrayal and all I wanted to prove was that the above statement about Guts was false.

Guts needed to be roam the world again and perhaps find his place in it. Its not betrayal to anyone, he was growing. Although he loved the Hawks like a family, he never would have joined the Hawks if Griffith didnt force him into it. Also, Caska always aspired to be Griffiths 'right-hand man', that came to a crashing halt when Guts joined the picture. Guts didn't want to get in the way of that anymore, he finally acknowledged her feelings about that. I think in her heart she was torn between the two. But in the end she chose to stay with Griffith.

In the end, I think what Griffith did was unforgivable. I now its subjective buts its my own perspective that justice needs to prevail here.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
In my opinion, Griffith was definutely mot souless. He had a great and supposedly unachievable goal ahead of him. It takes alot of will power and determination to  realize any dream, especially the one he had. Griffith had all the key attributes to achieve this one goal. Griffith was intelligent, inspiring and commanded an aura of respect on and off the battlefield. He was very resourceful and cunning. Not to mention he was an expert in military tactics and was a deadly swordsmen. The perfect commander.
You stick up for him now? What about "Chickenheart"?
Also, Caska always aspired to be Griffiths 'right-hand man', that came to a crashing halt when Guts joined the picture. Guts didn't want to get in the way of that anymore, he finally acknowledged her feelings about that. I think in her heart she was torn between the two. But in the end she chose to stay with Griffith.
Cool stuff, but what does this have to do with the main argument?
In the end, I think what Griffith did was unforgivable. I now its subjective buts its my own perspective that justice needs to prevail here.
Your justice.
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
You stick up for him now? What about "Chickenheart"?
I have always felt that way toward Griffith. I guess I have never voiced it til now. Oh, the chickenheart thing was just my twisted sense of humor.

Cool stuff, but what does this have to do with the main argument?
I'm just sayin that Guts did not turn his back on anyone when he left, he felt it was his time to leave.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
*shrugs, does a back flip, triple-summersault and a slam dunk*

“My idea of a good friend is someone who sacrifices you to God Hand; therefore, Griffith is good friend!!”

See what I mean about the evils of subjectivity? It's the reason people can like FF8 (or a good ass pounding) simply because it was the first they were exposed to (I'm just pissing everybody off today). ;D

Anyway, what a mess, this is why we can never effectively discuss Guts’ and Griffith’s psyches. It always turns into a big fight about the definition of betrayal and then of course everybody who’s even heard of Berserk chimes in with (whether warranted or not), “Judeau is dead, Griffith is the boogieman, so there!”

Well, fuck it, I don’t even remember the point I was trying to make and I’m sure most people are too busy furrowing their brows at Griffith to get it anyway, so let’s jusr roll on with this sideshow and get back to base arguments.

I'm just sayin that Guts did not turn his back on anyone when he left, he felt it was his time to leave.
Fine, what about when he turned his back on Casca?

-Griffith
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
Fine, what about when he turned his back on Casca?
-Griffith
Oh I agree with you there, he should never have left her because demons are always a half step away from them. She is very vulnerable now that Griffith is reborn.
 
Anyway, isn't this thread supposed to be about what kinda apostles we wanna see?

Since when were we psychoanalyzing the chars anyway? I was merely stating my opinions on which actions I found disagreeable.

And who ever said there's no right or wrong in the world of Berserk? Just because Berserk doesn't have a clearly defined moral instead of a theme such as other, more inferior anime/manga (Trigun for ex.) doesn't mean Miura doesn't care at all for ethics. For example, it's pretty clear that Puck acts as the moral center of the story. He nags Gatts constantly whenever he does something messed up.
 
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