Casca with a brain

Aazealh

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xechnao said:
Not a big deal as you say really, but if I recall correctly Femto intentionally let Casca escape the eclipse or so I remember somebody has said.

I don't remember whether someone said so or not, but I don't agree with this, and I don't think anything in the manga hints at it. One could argue that Femto didn't try (who's to say he would have succeeded since he failed at his first attempt) to kill them off when Skull Knight came to rescue them because of Guts, since we see a close up of Guts at that moment, but Casca? I really don't see what is supposed to imply this.

xechnao said:
Hehe, yeah, but those are not a threat for Casca. Herself was able to deal with those. HACK SLASH

Well, it worked once because she could get her hands on a sword, but I wouldn't bet on it happening everytime, and that's not mentioning the wild animals, the cold, the hunger... I just don't buy the Casca-roaming-in-the-forest-for-2-years scenario.

xechnao said:
I wouldn't be so certain. But even if you were right for sure, yeah, I would bet on causality as you say.

Demon Child against an apostle? Well I'm 100% positive on this, that would not be much of a match... As I said, she stayed in the cave, it was all convenient, and that's it. It doesn't seem to be very realistic to me to imagine that Guts attracted apostles but that Casca somehow wouldn't or would be protected from them until Femto's incarnation, I think it's more subtle than that, hence the cave. I'm afraid trying to see more into it won't lead us very far, due to a crucial lack of information (and lack of interest plot-wise, IMHO).

xechnao said:
But it somehow knew that Casca would need Guts protection at a certain point -and that point actually is at the site where the hawk of light would incarnate and at the moment when it gets hurt and engulfed by the egg apostle. Isn't it this the reason it appeared to Guts and warned him about Casca?

Guts had the dream about the Falcon of Light like all of Midland, he saw Casca being burnt at the stake, and a Hawk formed by the flames around the top of the stake itself. Then when he woke up, the Demon Child warned him about Casca being in danger, basically mirroring the dream Guts just had, only less clearly. Casca had just escaped of the cave, and was heading to Albion. I don't think this necessarily points to precise events, really, especially if we consider the option that the Demon Child might just have had a dream similiar to Guts'. Nothing after all tells us that he had divinatory powers... Even if he did appear to Guts several times in the manga, he was mostly haunting him, not being helpful.

As you said, the Demon Child knew Casca was going to get in trouble, and he legitimately warned Guts about it, sensing that what was coming was big and that she would need him. If Guts hadn't been there, the goat quasi-apostle would have killed Casca for example, or maybe the H.I.C.K. would have taken care of her as well as of the other heretics, slaying her mindlessly. To me the Demon Child did what he could and succeeded at that, but it's going too far to assume that he could have handled everything in the world but taking a single attack from Mozgus (and through a big mass of incubi), a quasi-apostle, and knew it in advance...
 
that moment after casca fell out of the giant mandragora and said "guts, i was have a terrible dream(or something)" was amazing... just one moment of lucidity, another slap in the face for guts... such a great scene

her not wanting to be sane seems right to me...

i think her picking up a sword and fighting back to back with guts against the forces of darkness would be a bit cheesy (atleast it would be if writen like i just did) ... if she ever does gain her sanity again, i think it will be right before she dies like a rod in the gears of the great big apocolypse machine of the godhand bringing it to a stop just long enough for guts to get his shot...
 
Aazealh said:
I don't think Femto planned all of this or had a specific intention at all (I'd rather say that Idea planned it). One could argue that Femto didn't try (who's to say he would have succeeded since he failed at his first attempt) to kill them off when Skull Knight came to rescue them because of Guts, since we see a close up of Guts at that moment, but Casca? I really don't see what is supposed to imply this.

Ok, but I am still not convined about this. Somehow I see what you are saying as making Femto dumber than what he is supposed to be.
Let me explain: GH understands the existance and nature of causality. At the same time Femto must have known that he was to come on earth as the hawk of light at Albion. He must have been aware of certain causality things and his role in them (aka what he was supposed to do - and in what purpose). He must have been aware of the king, of Zodd, of the fact that people saw him in his dream. Perhaps he couldn't have a distinct image of the flow of certain things, such as Sonia has for example, but I still believe that somehow he must have known things about himself, including his incarnation in means of where, when and how it would come and happen.
Eventually, I am saying, that yes, idea is behind all of this but Femto himself must have been aware of the demon child and it's role about him.
Besides, at the hill of swords we get even more belief that he knew he was made of Casca's and Griffith's child, even before trying to wake up the child's feelings. 
 

Aazealh

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Psymont 2.0 said:
that moment after casca fell out of the giant mandragora and said "guts, i was have a terrible dream(or something)" was amazing... just one moment of lucidity, another slap in the face for guts... such a great scene

Yeah, it was very moving.

Psymont 2.0 said:
her not wanting to be sane seems right to me...

I don't think it would make sense for anybody to want to be a drooling simpleton. However she'll obviously have difficulties dealing with a world that moved on drastically during several years while she stayed behind... Not to mention her memories of the Occultation ceremony.

xechnao said:
Somehow I see what you are saying as making Femto dumber than what he is supposed to be.

Well that's certainly not what I mean... It's not a question of being dumb or not, it's about the extent of his knowledge, and from the elements we have in the manga, I don't think it's likely for him to be aware of such things. The God Hand didn't expect Skull Knight to break through the Occultation, they even interrogate themselves about it. In volume 3, they try to convince the Count to sacrifice his daughter, and they are in awe at Guts' endurance... They didn't know that the Count would refuse, why then would Femto know all these details?

xechnao said:
GH understands the existance and nature of causality. At the same time Femto must have known that he was to come on earth as the hawk of light at Albion. He must have been aware of certain causality things and his role in them (aka what he was supposed to do - and in what purpose).

Why must he had known that? I mean, what implies it? When he asked the Idea of Evil, the replies he got were "be as you will" and "do as you will". And he asked for wings. He's supposed to do what he wants, it's not like he had a briefing on what were his tasks, why he should accomplish them, etc. He's not an employee of God Hand inc. The secret of causality is that what he will choose is what was planned for him to choose. That's why the Idea of Evil is God. And while I don't doubt him to have come to know some of the mechanisms of the world, I also don't think he gained instant knowledge about everything, including his own destiny. After all, he attacked Skull Knight when he came to rescue Guts and Casca, and I really don't think he missed on purpose. If he had succeeded, a lot of things wouldn't have happened.

xechnao said:
He must have been aware of the king, of Zodd, of the fact that people saw him in his dream.

Yeah, I'm sure of it, he appeared himself in their dreams, talked to them and all...

xechnao said:
Perhaps he couldn't have a distinct image of the flow of certain things, such as Sonia has for example, but I still believe that somehow he must have known things about himself, including his incarnation in means of where, when and how it would come and happen. Eventually, I am saying, that yes, idea is behind all of this but Femto himself must have been aware of the demon child and it's role about him.

The thing is, I don't say he never knew about the Demon Child and the role he would play together with the Beherit-apostle until his incarnation, more that I don't believe him to have known that as soon as he became Femto. When things started to converge toward Albion and the mirrored ceremony, I can imagine that he might have had an idea of how things might turn out, but not years before it, just after becoming a God Hand member. And knowing that he would be part of the world again doesn't imply knowing all the details about it, especially when some of them are subject to change (Casca's planned death, showed to Guts during the Falcon of Light's dream, didn't occur).

If Femto, now Griffith, knew about all of this, then he should know about his own life and death, going by that logic, and I don't think he does. There was a talk about the possibility of him being omniscient or not recently, and as I said then, I don't think an over-knowledgeable Griffith would be interesting as far as the plot goes.

xechnao said:
Besides, at the hill of swords we get even more belief that he knew he was made of Casca's and Griffith's child, even before trying to wake up the child's feelings.

He knew what his body has been created from (at that point, that's to be expected), but he didn't expect the child's feelings to be remanent, even less to interfere with his own and influence the course of his actions, he is suprised at them and wonder to himself. I don't think this tells us anything relevant regarding our discussion.
 
Aazealh said:
If Femto, now Griffith, knew about all of this, then he should know about his own life and death, going by that logic, and I don't think he does. There was a talk about the possibility of him being omniscient or not recently, and as I said then, I don't think an over-knowledgeable Griffith would be interesting as far as the plot goes.

I didn't want to say he is supposed to be omniscient by what I said, on the contrary, I wanted to show his limits thus I talked about Sonia.
I only said that perhaps he had knowledge of himself, of his destiny. Ok, there is nothing in the manga stating that, but there is also nothing stating that this can't be. Perhaps, Griffith sees his own idea planned destiny, considering himself only.
If we decide that the arrows were deflected by causality and we saw him remain calm while they were aiming at him that means that he knew that he wasn't gona die or hit at that moment, at that place.
 

Aazealh

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xechnao said:
I didn't want to say he is supposed to be omniscient by what I said, on the contrary, I wanted to show his limits thus I talked about Sonia.
I only said that perhaps he had knowledge of himself, of his destiny.

I know, I was just relating the two to emphasize the fact that Griffith knowing too much, even about his own destiny, doesn't seem very interesting to me. I don't think his knowledge has to be absolute, even if limited to a certain field (himself in this case), in order to hold some interest or be impressive in terms of power. Even regarding the storyline, Griffith knowing all about his life already would be very restrictive for Miura, plus that would be very tricky in terms of plot holes.

xechnao said:
Ok, there is nothing in the manga stating that, but there is also nothing stating that this can't be.

Hence the speculation. :SK:

And Griffith was surprised at the Demon Child's feelings in volume 22, he apparently didn't expect it. Now according to you, that shouldn't happen, since he should know everything about himself and his life.

xechnao said:
If we decide that the arrows were deflected by causality and we saw him remain calm while they were aiming at him that means that he knew that he wasn't gona die or hit at that moment, at that place.

Well, it just means he was aware that mere arrows weren't a threat to him, not necessarily that he knows his place and time of death. SK told Guts that not a single thing in the "normal" world could harm Griffith. If he knows that, I'd expect Griffith himself to. Anyway that arrow deflection scene is still pretty mysterious, and I don't think we'll know about it anytime soon either. :puck:
 
Aazealh said:
I know, I was just relating the two to emphasize the fact that Griffith knowing too much, even about his own destiny, doesn't seem very interesting to me. I don't think his knowledge has to be absolute, even if limited to a certain field (himself in this case), in order to hold some interest or be impressive in terms of power. Even regarding the storyline, Griffith knowing all about his life already would be very restrictive for Miura, plus that would be very tricky in terms of plot holes.

Well, according to SK even GH can't control causality 100% and know the future 100%. That means that what I said about Griffith - which is that he may see his idea planned destiny - doesn't mean it's necessarily uninteresting and restrictive to Miura. It's the same deal about GH and idea's plan, how Casca was saved at the second eclipse for example and many other things.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
xechnao said:
Well, according to SK even GH can't control causality 100% and know the future 100%.

Well we don't need SK to know that, and I actually don't think he said so... Slan comments about their ability to foresee events (and its limitations) during the Occultation, but nowhere it is said that the God Hand controls causality in itself. Once again, it's more of Idea's role to me. I think the God Hand's role is more to trigger and oversee large events, like the plague for Conrad and the heretics for Slan.

xechnao said:
That means that what I said about Griffith - which is that he may see his idea planned destiny - doesn't mean it's necessarily uninteresting and restrictive to Miura.

It's not really related to what you said, or to our discussion in general, as far as I'm concerned...

xechnao said:
It's the same deal about GH and idea's plan, how Casca was saved at the second eclipse for example and many other things.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. I don't see how your speculation that Griffith would know all about his future life until his death is supposed to be related to these events. That really doesn't justify anything; either he does or doesn't, but in any case there's no basis for it.

Anyway this is so off-topic... Let's put a stop to it, I'd like the hypothetical (don't feel obliged, people) next post to be about Casca, and on topic of course.
 

SlimJ87D

Apollo
Just thought I would share this video of Casca being back to normal for a split second. It's so sad... but it's canon to the story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBuQ6dVwe0o
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
SlimJ87D said:
Just thought I would share this video of Casca being back to normal for a split second. It's so sad... but it's canon to the story.

Well, thanks I guess (and thanks to thedigitalsin, since he's the one that put it on youtube). I think we've all seen it already though. I've had it on my computer for something like 5 years. And it is canon indeed (but damn, the English dubbing is awful).

Patience, one day that smiley will be relevant: :casca:
 

SlimJ87D

Apollo
Aazealh said:
Well, thanks I guess (and thanks to thedigitalsin, since he's the one that put it on youtube). I think we've all seen it already though. I've had it on my computer for something like 5 years. And it is canon indeed (but damn, the English dubbing is awful).

Patience, one day that smiley will be relevant: :casca:

LOL, hahaha, yeah, and she'll return with her short hair and hard looks. Personally she looks better with long hair, but that's just my taste.
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
I personally think that, if she becomes sane again, the first person she's gonna go after is Guts for biting her breast til it bled and leading her around on a leash (assuming her memories of when she was mentally handicapped remain).

However, I also don't doubt that she'd forgive him after he explained and apologized, I just don't think he'll get out of it without a few bloody wounds...
And she will probably join him, both to be with him and to keep him in line. (refering more to his "talkin shit" than his actual actions)
 
Ah. The Dreamcast Game. Its actually what got me into Berserk. I was miles away from knowing there was a manga and for that matter a anime. Irony!

I hated how your sword would always hit buildings knocking you off guard. :puck:

But man as soon as you started to go red. Let the fun begin.

Oh...yeah. Caska Kicks assmious.
 
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