Could there be two Griffiths?

[yota821]

...which doesn't explain why spirits suddenly appear whenever there's just a bit of shade to cover the area. Also, the spirits were probably composed mostly of those that had died of the plague while in the building, not miscellaneous spirits seeking shelter.

 

[Aeglos]

Re: Could there be two Griffith's

Wow... old thread... let's see.

Quite the contrary; he prostituted himself to feed his subordinates/friends and horses, to buy weapons etc.
He hated himself for that act, he harmed his own body remembering those facts!
He often acted for the companions' sake, he saved Casca, and many times had risked his own life to save Guts (Zodd?)

Feeding and maintaining his band was the reason he prostituted himself. I find hard to believe that such an act would be considered 'ethical' or 'ideal' in the context of the middle ages, or any time period for that matter. The fact that it was a quick self-humiliating solution does not make it ethical or ideal.
And as for saving Guts and Casca, they were tools. Instruments in his hands, made for helping him reach his dream. He had affection for them, that can't be denied... but that affection only went so far. He exemplified that when he talked with Charlotte the night he sent Guts to kill Count Julius. And even if he considered them as 'friends', he also stated that his dream was above friendship; he was just safekeeping his dear weapons of war.

He lost his own ambitions, and even his own life for Guts, what are you talking about?

He never lost his ambitions... in fact he is now but a step away from fullfiling his dream. And I don't remember him ever loosing his life for Guts.

Maybe you are not considering the part in which Conrad lets Griffith see his entire life, in my opinion, it is Conrad who succeed in making Griffith take in consideration the sacrifice option...

Yes I am; He still had a choice... one that he would couldn't have rejected though, with causality being behind his whole life... so was it a choice? In the strict sense, it then wasn't, but considering that the God Hand never forced him to make the sacrifice and just laid down the facts of his life before him in a seducing way, it's more like an informed "guided choice".

Back on topic,i always thought that (New) Griffith and Femto(LOL) were two separate beings, cause in the manga, i don't remember any reference to the fact that is Femto who takes the control over the demon child's body (if he has one!) or of that strange version of Beherit.

I have only seen this "living" Beherit devouring the Guts/Casca's child, and the result was this new Griffith.

Maybe someone can help me understand where i can find the part in which is explained that Femto took control of that (those?) body

Volume 22, episode 180
Griffith:
I came here to check... to stand before you in my new body... to see if my heart would waver upon seeing you

There you go, same Griffith, new body

 

[thesyndrome]

griffith himself had mentioned many times that he didnt care if some of the hawks died in battle, and that they were tools for his use

i'll put this in a situational instance:
lets say you are playing chess, with heavier pieces like knights, bishops (guts, Casca, etc) and pawns (standard hawk soldiers); if the opponents queen/king could be drawn out by sacrificing pawns, then you would do it in a heartbeat, BUT sacrificing your own queen/knight/bishop/whatever to get their queen is far more risky, and could lead to failure in the long run.

griffith DID have feelings for guts/caksa, but he saved them (on the occasions you mentioned) for use in battle
there can always be a situation where sacrificing a power unit will win you the game...griffith just never had a situation where it was necessary to throw away guts'/Casca's life in order to succeed (until the eclipse of course, "sacrifice all your pieces except the king, and i'll let you win the game" "done")

sorry for all of the chess references, but its the only way i could think to explain my train of thought

 

[Skeleton]

I'm a huge closet Griffith fanbody and back when I first started reading the manga, I truly believed that Griffith's mind was broken after the year of torture and the God Hand used this to manipulate him into making a choice he wouldn't have made otherwise, keeping Griffith's hands clean in the ordeal. I also thought that Femto, while he used to be Griffith, wasn't Griffith anymore but a seperate, evil entity sprung forth from him but after rereading the manga many times, I've come to realize not only has Griffith been cognizant of the circumstances the entire time but that he would've done what he did anyways.

It's funny because, for me at least, when I accepted that fact, Griffith's character opened up a thousand fold. He became so much more, so much deeper, than I had previously thought. I have been able to enjoy his character a lot more.

 

[Phemt81]

Re: Could there be two Griffith's

Yes I am; He still had a choice... one that he would couldn't have rejected though, with causality being behind his whole life... so was it a choice? In the strict sense, it then wasn't, but considering that the God Hand never forced him to make the sacrifice and just laid down the facts of his life before him in a seducing way, it's more like an informed "guided choice".

And this seems to contradict what you say in the previous posts.

But seeing the others' opinions here, maybe it is just me that tends to be too "indulgent" with the Griffith's attitude...

Volume 22, episode 180
Griffith:
I came here to check... to stand before you in my new body... to see if my heart would waver upon seeing you

There you go, same Griffith, new body

Oh, thanks! i didn't remember that phrase!

I will check my volumes as soon as i'll have time, thanks again for pointing me the volume and the chapter too!

 

[Gurifisu]

Feeding and maintaining his band was the reason he prostituted himself. I find hard to believe that such an act would be considered 'ethical' or 'ideal' in the context of the middle ages, or any time period for that matter. The fact that it was a quick self-humiliating solution does not make it ethical or ideal.
And as for saving Guts and Casca, they were tools. Instruments in his hands, made for helping him reach his dream. He had affection for them, that can't be denied... but that affection only went so far. He exemplified that when he talked with Charlotte the night he sent Guts to kill Count Julius. And even if he considered them as 'friends', he also stated that his dream was above friendship; he was just safekeeping his dear weapons of war.

Self-sacrifice is considered highly ethical. That was an act of self-sacrifice... an act that is self-humiliating can be ethical... he sacrificed his pride. He did it because he didn't want others to die for his dream... he didn't feel remorse for them, but he didn't want them to die. He was aware of the reality that his dream required him to walk on the corpses of the dead to his shiny castle, but on some level he rejected it.

Yes, he may have said they were just tools, but if they truly were just tools, then there would be no reason to sacrifice them to the Godhand. He felt affection for all members of the band of the hawk, even if it was a complex version of the emotion coined as affection. Even if he viewed them as merely worker ants to be "used", he still cared for them on some level (no matter what he says).

And Guts he defiantly cared for. Guts was the only one that began to exist outside of his dream. The only one that made him forget his dream. But a king under Griffith's definition can have no friends, for a king is suppose to have no equal. So having Guts as his equal (even his better), his friend, he rejects his dream. His dream was not above friendship, but his dream could be destroyed by friendship (in his mind). That was one of the themes of that arc Friendship vs. dreams. He made him forget his dream...

And are you kidding me? Would you sleep with an old man? Would you do it if by doing so you could save hundreds of lives? I fail to see how such an act of self-sacrifice, of sacrificing your pride so others can live (or in this case, don't die yet) isn't ethical (anyway ethics is complicated). Griffith is complicated.


And back on the actual subject... I don't think there's two Griffith. He changes, but I don't think there are two.

 

[Lithrael]

It wasn't exactly a selfless act, either, though. Cutting war chest corners saved HIM time on the battlefield too, gave him fewer chances to end up dead himself and brought him a sharper rise towards the power he was determined to gain while young. It was certainly presented as 'taking one for the team' but bear in mind that bit of the story was told from Caska's perspective, I believe.

Of course, the Hawks did mean a lot to Griffith, but I don't think it would be a stretch to say the dead kid very much reminded Griff of himself.

 

[Griffith]

It wasn't exactly a selfless act, either, though. Cutting war chest corners saved HIM time on the battlefield too, gave him fewer chances to end up dead himself and brought him a sharper rise towards the power he was determined to gain while young. It was certainly presented as 'taking one for the team' but bear in mind that bit of the story was told from Casca's perspective, I believe.

While that's a good overall analysis, I think it's a personal interpretation that's not true to the scene itself. Casca's perspective was the one given to us for a reason, and there's nothing to suggest her memories are inaccurate or delusional, simply a recall of the past giving insight into Griffith. It doesn't matter whether Griffith was being selfish or not, his selfishness is not in doubt, but the point was he did feel the deaths of his soldiers and that was an ungodly burden for him to bear.

 

[Lithrael]

Agreed. I should have said it wasn't entirely a selfless act. I didn't mean that Casca was delusional or that the scene was misrepresented, just that the spin may have been positive.

ETC: I mean, we are influenced by the way Caska saw it just by her dialog and thoughts and reactions, and what she chooses to tell. I don't mean that what we were shown is the Caskaverse version. Berserk's always been very THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED in what it shows.

 

[Manji]

Argh this is going to be hard to put into words without contradicting something.

I feel that Griffith never really had too much free will/idealism when it came to his "dream". The flow of causality etc seems that however haphazardly (not smooth) transition it took, he would reach that position he is in now. I guess what I'm trying to say is Griffith's "Dream" was a steamroller...attached to a freight train...going 300 miles per hour stuck on a single train track. The trail can bend and weave and make stops, but it must reach its final destination, it cannot change its primary route, and it most certainly cannot go backwards(clarified Edit).

As for the "two Griffiths", as already pointed out, its impossible. "Griffith" is (as Aazealh nicely put it) Femto in a meaty sack of flesh (albeit, not all that "human") And as said, that's why on the hill he "checks" to see that he still feels nothing, that GRIFFITH IS NO MORE and only Femto remains.
As for God Hand coming to "earth", that's what makes it so "oh shi-!" worthy. However, it makes me wonder if it has ever happened before (by therein, in I mean another God Hand member obtained such before, meaning if the ceremony has only happened once (Griffith) or more. Again, my memory as blank, feel free to correct me on it.