Tama said:I never thought about Guts going into Casca's mind to rescue her. That would be pretty cool to see if something like that does happen.
MrMehawk said:Well, I for one always interpreted it to be psychological but not just about the fact that she was raped but also the entire surroundings and what was going on there. I know that rape is one of the most traumatizing experiences possible but I cannot imagine Casca becoming this strongly traumatized if it had been a random human who raped her (for example the guy in her "flashback", who became her first kill). Traumatized, sure absolutely, an unspeakably horrible experience but degrading to a mute state with complete mental absence? I just find it unlikely. I'd say it was more the whole situation of being raped AND it being by Griffith AND Guts being right there AND all her friends being devoured directly before that etc.
MrMehawk said:I still think it is psychological but the thing is psychology and spiritual things are the same or at least very strongly connected in Berserk.
and the resemblance would be superficial
I don't have time to go over it in detail but if you search the forum I've written many posts about the way the armor works and how it relates to Guts' psychological state.
It just wouldn't be done the same way
It's hard to say. I think that Casca will definitely want revenge, I mean SHE was the commander of the Band of the Hawk for a whole year after Griffith was gone. It's extremely hard to predict... because it's so complex (...) I really hate when people say "Casca will join Griffith" these are usually disgusting and insensitive people who have only seen the anime. In the manga Casca is definitely pissed off at Griffith during the eclipse while Pippin and Judeau are saving her and she expresses that she can't believe Griffith would do this. So there is no way in hell that Casca would just go and join Griffith.
As much as I love Schierke, despite what others may think, I believe it'd be more appropriate if Farnese was the one to aid Guts through the process. It would be a grand test for herself, display how far she's come, and lend valuable insight as to why Guts deems Casca as his true love, and finally allow her to get over all these stupid and unreciprocated feelings she has toward him
I don't think there's any doubt about that.Patou244 said:When you think about it what Griffith did to Casca was even more depraved and disgusting then what he even did to Guts. SHe should have more reason to want revenge on Griffith/Femto than even Guts does since Griffith betrayal (and abuse)is even deeper than that of Guts in some ways.
I hear ya. I've worried about it occasionally, too, but I think once Casca is able to rationally think she'll be far more understanding.Patou244 said:Also I really hope when Casca is restored that she will not grudge Guts in any way. One of my fears is she is going to hold the events in vol. 23 against him, and I do not want to see that.
I don't think I want any of the group involved with Casca's healing. Her truama involved her and Guts and I think it should be dealt with only her and Guts. Some how think, due to their feelings for Guts that Farnese and Schierke would not be a benefit in a situation meant to restore the love of Guts's life. Schierke may have her emotions in check but Farnese is another story.
rashikal said:P.S. I really hate when people say "Casca will join Griffith" these are usually disgusting and insensitive people who have only seen the anime. In the manga Casca is definitely pissed off at Griffith during the eclipse while Pippin and Judeau are saving her and she expresses that she can't believe Griffith would do this.
Doc said:Doesn't Casca even ponder if the Eclipse is punishment for the sins the Falcons have committed on their journey?
Walter said:This notion sounds like utter nonsense. What "sins" are you talking about, exactly...?
Walter said:And are you seriously postulating that had the Falcons been given a few minutes to properly chat and process events during the Eclipse, they'd come to the conclusion that, "Yes Griffith, it's totally cool to sic these monsters on us, because you're our boss afterall" ?
I think you're reading too much into it that line. It's merely whoever musing over the hellish nature of the surrounding area. We all know the Eclipse Ceremony wasn't a punishment of sin against the Falcons, it was all about Griffith's choice to become the fifth God Hand member.Doc said:"Is this Hell!? Did we sin so much..?
"Our travels were smeared with blood... Are they over at last?"
^That's the quote I'm referring to. Is that not accurate?
Alucroas said:The point isn't for whether or not they should be involved -- it's whether or not they're involvement, period -- will have a positive or negative impact of their understanding of Guts' relationship with Casca.
Alucroas said:Schierke has already received a glimpse of what happened, and if she sees it again -- this time more directly -- then it may provide us with an external lense through which to say "Hey, is going up against Griffith really worth it?"
Alucroas said:Rather than having this awkward dance of opinions between two people, whose opinions are ultimately going to be subjective
Alucroas said:Rickert is Falconia's objective lense. Schierke is Guts' party's objective lense. And if you want to argue against that, it needs to be realized that both of these lense-seers are still of relative age points in their lives. To deny one is to have your cake and eat it too. The Moonlight boy, Griffith, and everyone else including the Skullknight are mere variables in the equation that will lead to the decision.
Doc said:"Is this Hell!? Did we sin so much..?
"Our travels were smeared with blood... Are they over at last?"
Aazealh said:I fail to see how that would be of any particular interest. Their understanding of Guts and Casca's relationship is pretty clear right now, and that relationship is bound to evolve when Casca's condition will change. How it will evolve depends on her and her alone, since Guts' desires on that matter are pretty set. The others' understanding of said relationship is completely secondary to all of that and I don't see how getting involved in the process leading to her healing would affect it.
That's a really strange (and reductive) way to look at it I think. If Schierke were to bear witness to Casca's memories of being raped, I doubt her reaction would be to question the motives of revenge against him. Furthermore, Guts himself has already forsaken his quest of revenge in order to take care of Casca, so that reflexion of the reader to which you allude has already been taking place for years. And Guts has answered it: going against Griffith isn't worth abandoning Casca. Now the thing to consider is that if the group were to go after Griffith at some point, they will likely be driven by something other than pure vengeance.
You're assuming a lot here. For one, I think Casca and Guts are definitely in a better place than anyone to decide what their own course of action should be regarding Griffith, simply because of the history they have with him. Even if everybody else wanted to go, they'd still have to hold Casca's opinion above their own desires out of sheer decency. Second, it's not like the decision to "go after Griffith" would be taken by just one or two people and everybody else would follow; I really don't believe things will go down that way. They're all free to do as they wish, and I'm convinced that by the time the group leaves Elfhelm they'll have been told about Guts & Casca's past (which will in itself be interesting even if it's narrated by the interested parties and not directly experienced in their minds).
Beyond that, I don't think "revenge" will be the sole motivation for going out there, nor do I believe that Guts or Casca's motives would be somehow less valid than Isidro's or Serpico's based on objectivity. That being said, I'm sure those questions will arise at some point in the story and I look forward to it.
You know, I'm not sure I'd agree to say that Rickert is necessarily completely objective about Falconia, or that Schierke is 100% objective about Guts. And it's not just a matter of age but of feelings and life experiences too. But more importantly, those are characters in the story, and there's simply no need for them to be an "objective lens" for the reader. We get to see events as told to us by the author and so our own objectivity is enough, especially since we know more about the story than all of the characters combined.
This talk of "lens-seers" sounds like hogwash to me, and I have no idea what you're getting at with your last two sentences.
His love for her has certainly been shown, and he has said that he will never abandon Casca again. As Aaz said, when Casca recovers it is up to her and her alone how their relationship will evolve.Alucroas said:Saying your heart belongs to someone, and showing that your heart belongs to someone are two very different things, and the love between them cannot be shown in their present state. This is what I mean by insight. If you're diving into Casca's mind, you're diving into her experiences with Guts, what made them close and what broke her in the first place. It also lends them greater insight into why Guts may or may not make the decision to leave and go after Griffith, and the same with Casca.
May you please not resort to using sexist insults to describe female characters? She wasn't being indecisive anyway, her overwhelming feelings of guilt and duty led her to make the painful, self-sacrificing decision to stay with Griffith and the Hawks.I'm assuming here, because the last time Casca had a chance to make character progress, she admitted that she was being a stupid indecisive bitch.
Where did you get this idea?When Guts first watched the kid inside the cabin at the beach, he considered killing the fucker
We don't know anything about how those feelings will carry over. Casca might trust Farnese afterwards, but that doesn't mean she will feel comfortable asking for advice. Casca becoming sane is going to change the dynamics of their relationship completely.Do you think those trusting feelings won't carry over when she's brought back? That all that trust will simply vanish. Casca isn't the type to make a decision on her own without talking about it with a third person.
Again, may you please refrain from using sexist slurs? It's unnecessary.Farnese may not be a fucking therapist with a Ph.D, she's no Dr. Phil either, but she's far from being an inexperienced twat when it comes to overcoming mental trauma and learning how to deal with it.
Alucroas said:Saying your heart belongs to someone, and showing that your heart belongs to someone are two very different things
Alucroas said:and the love between them cannot be shown in their present state.
Alucroas said:If you're diving into Casca's mind, you're diving into her experiences with Guts, what made them close and what broke her in the first place.
Alucroas said:It also lends them greater insight into why Guts may or may not make the decision to leave and go after Griffith, and the same with Casca.
Alucroas said:What reduction...where? I said it would give us an external lense through which to view the situation
Alucroas said:You can have your opinion and still keep it to yourself without saying a word, and in Schierke's case, we just happen to be able to see her opinion. That's what I meant.
Alucroas said:I think we need another perspective, and I believe Schierke may be able to offer it, even if she chooses not to voice it.
Alucroas said:I'm assuming here, because the last time Casca had a chance to make character progress, she admitted that she was being a stupid indecisive bitch.
Alucroas said:Regardless of what Femto did to her, Femto has her SON, which is going to lead to some massive indecision. Even in her mentally handicapped state, she is ferociously protective him, and will not let Guts anywhere near him. Do you really believe that these instincts won't remain after she's healed, that she won't be able to put two and two together, that she won't recognize his hormonal scent (yes, people do this, it's a proven fact, go look it up) and feel uneasy? Try looking at this from another perspective.
Alucroas said:There are typically two full moons a month.
Alucroas said:then the KoFS or whoever has the most knowledge has to say: "Sorry, Casca, he went back to being apart of Griffith
Alucroas said:When Guts first watched the kid inside the cabin at the beach, he considered killing the fucker, and I don't doubt that his brand won't still be tickling him the next time he shows up.
Alucroas said:Farnese has been taking care of Casca, she has literally acted as her mother, who she trusts instinctively and runs to when she's afraid. Do you think those trusting feelings won't carry over when she's brought back?
Alucroas said:Casca isn't the type to make a decision on her own without talking about it with a third person.
Alucroas said:She went to Judeau for this constantly, because Judeau was trustworthy, Judeau knew how to say the right thing at the right time.
Alucroas said:Remember, Farnese made the decision to follow Guts on her own. If she's bright enough to make a life-changing decision for herself and stick to it, then she's smart enough to give Casca advice. And yes, I am aware of the lvls of difference in trauma they experienced, and what the results were, but the fact of the matter is they've both gone through horrifying experiences.
Alucroas said:I don't think revenge will be either, I'm just debating the popular topic.
Alucroas said:I frankly believe that somewhere, deep down, Guts and Griffith want to sit down and talk.
Alucroas said:Nice dodge, and try not to bridge two methods of observation again and then try to detonate that same bridge before other people have a chance to walk across it. Characters determine the outcome of the story, and that's more important than my, yours, or everyone else's opinion on this board and elsewhere's combined as the author chooses to portray the story.
Alucroas said:And this is not a story told to us, it's a story shown to us
Alucroas said:Rickert's perspective isn't more important than Schierke's, and Schierke's isn't more important than Rickert's, because both of their perspectives are rooted in what other people have told them. Rickert saw the Eclipse from the outside but had no idea what the fuck was going on inside. Schierke caught a glimpse of the Eclipse, albeit more directly, but never quite got a front-row seat to it.
Having your cake and eating it too means you want to be able to have both of their opinions, but still raise one as being more important than the other. I'm not saying you did this, I am speaking of it as a general bit of advice for how I think the value of character perspectives should be measured, and there perspectives are important because Guts' has a family now and he has to do what's right for that family which he clearly sees himself as being responsible for.
Alucroas said:Furthermore, everything Guts and Casca decide to do from that point on will effect the entire party.
Alucroas said:Yes, Serpico, Schierke, Farnese can choose to stay, but the fact of the matter of these people have all bonded with each other on some level. Saying "Fuck you, this is my decision, I will make it" sounds ridiculously selfish and just straight-up bitchlike without them knowing the full-depth of their decision and why they chose to make it.
Alucroas said:You can't gain full insight, and you can't gain full, true perspective without actually witnessing what has happened to a person on some visceral level, no matter what everyone else says or tells you to believe.
His love for her has certainly been shown, and he has said that he will never abandon Casca again. As Aaz said, when Casca recovers it is up to her and her alone how their relationship will evolve.
May you please not resort to using sexist insults to describe female characters? She wasn't being indecisive anyway, her overwhelming feelings of guilt and duty led her to make the painful, self-sacrificing decision to stay with Griffith and the Hawks.
Are you sure? We have no idea how things will happen, and just diving into her mind to bring her back won't necessarily involve going over her experiences with Guts. That's certainly not what drove her insane.
Where did you get this idea?
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you sure you've read the series? Guts definitely did not consider killing the boy at any point, and the Brand doesn't react to him either. You have a serious comprehension problem if that's what you took away from the scene.
We don't know anything about how those feelings will carry over. Casca might trust Farnese afterwards, but that doesn't mean she will feel comfortable asking for advice. Casca becoming sane is going to change the dynamics of their relationship completely.
Again, may you please refrain from using sexist slurs? It's unnecessary.
Farnese as she is now doesn't come off as someone who can offer useful advice. She has not been one to react objectively, her behavior when she yelled at Casca while giving her a bath in in episode 331 are two examples. She has been motivated entirely by her feelings.
Second, showing? Showing what? You're thinking of some voyeuristic experience where snapshots of Casca's past experiences with Guts would somehow indubitably prove something that mere words wouldn't?
Guts loves her in spite of her state, he's shown it, and it's been recognized by all interested parties. Anyway, like I said, their relationship will change when she regains herself, that's obvious.
Are you sure? We have no idea how things will happen, and just diving into her mind to bring her back won't necessarily involve going over her experiences with Guts. That's certainly not what drove her insane.
We're able to see any character's opinion so long as Miura sees it fit. That's not particular to Schierke, and her opinion on whether going against Griffith is worth it or not is not especially more valuable than anyone else's to me.
Could you please not gratuitously insult the characters? Because not only is what you're saying completely untrue, it's puerile and annihilates any attempt you may make at being taken seriously.
Because as readers, we definitely don't need Schierke to see Casca's traumatic memories in order to have "an external lens" (that doesn't mean anything, by the way) on whether or not going up against Griffith is "worth it".
But the problem here man is that we can get many perspectives on the situation without resorting to the scenario you've concocted. For one thing, like I've been saying, I doubt revenge will be the main drive for the group to go after Griffith. Why would they all follow if it were the case? Besides, Guts has forsaken his revenge for Casca's sake so far, and while we know he'd like to face him it's not like he'll be desperate to get off Elfhelm right after arriving there, dragging everyone with him against their will. That's a pretty big assumption on your part that warps all of what you're saying.
How about you try looking at it from another perspective yourself: do you not think Guts will be unwilling to kill his own son? Because if so, you're sorely mistaken. Which ties to what I've been trying to tell you: it's not going to just be about revenge.
Uh, what? The lunar cycle is a little over 29 days. That's once a month.
That isn't true. Casca was a leader, and she acted as such on numerous occasions, taking initiative when needed. Asking for people's counsel doesn't mean you can't take decision on your own, and I feel that's a deliberately disingenuous comment on your part here.
What the hell are you talking about? Like I've said, all characters in the story have their own perspectives, but they're just that: the perspectives of characters in a story. The reader does not need one or two of those perspectives to be somehow "more objective" than that of every other character, because the reader has the ability to enjoy the story from outside, by virtue of being a reader. I'm not sure why you started talking about lenses and "lens-seers" and nonsensical stuff like that, but I can assure you it's not going anywhere.
Affect. Affect the entire party.
There's no ground at all for that line of reasoning, that someone would take a decision without caring about the others, and I actually argued against that possibility in my previous post. It's also pretty funny that you seem to forget that Farnese and Serpico had both decided to leave the group without giving any proper reason to the others in Vritannis.
That's not a valid point at all. You don't need to witness something in order to believe what someone tells you. Saying otherwise is rather ridiculous,
Please don't take the Band of the Hawks translation as canon.
Alucroas said:This is my last post for this particular debate.
Alucroas said:I'm not here to entertain your misguided feminist sensibilities, so cut it out, or I'll just stop replying to anything you have to say from here on out.
Alucroas said:tl;dr Grow up.
Alucroas said:It's not that not all that crushial to your point.
She called herself that in an inaccurate scanslation.Alucroas said:She called herself a bitch outright, thought of herself as one, and admitted to acting like one. This isn't a social ethics class, and I'm not here to entertain your feminist sensibilities, so cut it out.
He wanted to kill him so much he prevented the child from falling on the throwing knives shortly after..He looks at the boy, then looks at the knife in his hand. Put two and two together. Holy shit, he's thinking about throwing the knife at the boy so he can practice his circus tricks.
It's a pejorative word used towards women, and you are using it to insult the female characters. I'm fine with you not replying to me since my "feminist sensibilities" and polite requests have been enough to annoy you. But I'll reiterate that this interpretation of her character is based off a shoddy translation.She called herself a bitch, and she has yet to redeem her bitchy quality, and no it's not a sexist slur. And again, I'm not here to entertain your misguided feminist sensibilities, so cut it out, or I'll just stop replying to anything you have to say from here on out.
Gummyskull said:She called herself that in an inaccurate scanslation.
Gummyskull said:He wanted to kill him so much he prevented the child from falling on the throwing knives shortly after..
Gummyskull said:This thread is going way off topic. So how about we go back to the event of Casca being cured. Do you think that The King of the Flower Storm has some very powerful dust that can treat the mind or might more than elf dust be involved? Like maybe some of the wizards that populate are will come together to help. Just throwing out some points to discuss.
This goes far beyond just a spelling error. Affect and effect have two different uses, and it has nothing to do with spelling, but everything to do with using the correct word.Alucroas said:Relevancy, your honor? Don't point that out. I don't care, but I'll sure not to make that mistake again, so I don't have to mock you for using misspellings as stacking tools to make a point. In other words, don't get uppity about tomato tomato or potato potato.
Agreed. I'm really hoping for something a little more involved that some fairy dust. I hadn't even considered Guts possibly having to dive into her psyche to bring her back, but that would be pretty incredible if it ends up going that direction.jackson_hurley said:I'm more with the others that it's gonna be some diving into the head of Casca to cure her instead of powerfull elf dust. Well that's what I'd like to see.
Alucroas said:This is my last post for this particular debate. If you don't like what I had to say, well get over it, because it's just an opinion. I did not like having to get aggressive and if I sounded like an asshole, well, I'm only 10% sorry.
Alucroas said:No, it hasn't been shown, not at it's full capacity. They have never seen Guts and Casca, hug, kiss, or do anything even remotely affectionate that displays just how much they truly love each other.
Alucroas said:She called herself a bitch outright, thought of herself as one, and admitted to acting like one.
Alucroas said:I'm absolutely, damn, 100% sure. She ELOPED WITH GUTS after revealing her true feelings with them, struggled between the ones she had for him, and the one she held for Griffith, decided she wanted to stick with Griffith to protect and nurse him back to health. What happened after that?! In a cruel twist of irony, that same person RAPES her, violates and tramples her love for Guts in the worst possible way, WHILE MAKING HIM LOOK AT HER AND FOR HER TO VIEW THE FUCKING ENRAGED LOOK ON HIS FACE.
Alucroas said:No, you have a serious accusation and dismissal problem.
You also have an IMAGE COMPERHENSION problem. I suggest you fix them.
He looks at the boy, then looks at the knife in his hand. Put two and two together. Holy shit, he's thinking about throwing the knife at the boy so he can practice his circus tricks.
Alucroas said:This is why we're in a speculation thread, not a black and white thread, called "This will happen because I say so compounded with the fact that I disagree with you."
Alucroas said:She called herself a bitch
Alucroas said:It proves the sheer depth of why he's protecting her as well as his violent reaction to Apostles that never fails to enrage him beyond any reason. It's about more than him just loving her and protecting her, it's about what he wants to protect her from, ontop of shedding insight as to what in the fuck caused the Beast of Darkness to be borne inside him. All this shit has to be addressed, all of it, it is all interconnected and none of it is even remotely separate. Farnese, Isidro, Serpico, and with the borderline exception of Schierke all know JACK SHIT about the true nature of his past with her.
Alucroas said:What is this "in spite of her state" thing all about. There's no spite, he hasn't openly shown rage against Casca, the beast of Darkness which is a mental creation from his mind doesn't hate her or spite her either, save for the specific context that it views her as an obstacle to getting to Griffith.
Alucroas said:Yes, their relationship will change, now stop telling me things that I'm not disagreeing with you about. It's a cheap attempt to give yourself some delusional high ground and it's pretty annoying.
Alucroas said:I explained it to the other girl but I guess I have to explain it twice. [...] I say again, it's all connected. How is it connected? Because Griffith -- okay Femto (don't want to trigger the cynical part of you again) -- DESTROYED THE RELATIONSHIP THEY HAD DAYS AFTER IT HAD FORMED. DUH.
Alucroas said:This is what I mean by "Nice dodge." only this time it's like an ant trying to dodge an asteroid. It won't work. Stop hiding behind the author to make you points, because we all know the author, Mr. Miura isn't here to back you up and he's not interested in doing it either. The author provides points for us to look at in the story, he also provides us with future points to speculate on, and that's exactly what point we're at right now as it pertains to this debate.
Alucroas said:If you truly don't understand this point, which I'm not interested in explaining multiple times, simply don't respond to it because I'm not going to waste time here having an intellectual shit-flinging contest.
Alucroas said:Well, since you said please, I'm going to assume it's not a rule. NO. Do that thing you do again, where you quote the wrong panels to prove your point against me and I might just reconsider. Other people's moral opinion of me isn't my concern, not when it pertains to arguing a real point about Casca's mixed feelings. Furthermore, we're reading Berserk. If you can handle rape, pedophilia, and other horrible things, then you can handle me referencing it as a point of contention.
tl;dr Grow up.
Alucroas said:Who is we? You're the admin of a discussion board, not Miura's spokesperson and while I appreciate you doing your best to help me and provide a place to discuss Berserk, I am in no way obligated to count myself among the collective opinions that you seem to think are orbiting around your brain.
Alucroas said:And while you're at it, stop with the statements of absolution, so I can actually have a two-way discussion with you and not constantly resist the urge to say things that might get me into serious trouble. And at least have the decency to say it to me directly, not in parenthesis.
Alucroas said:None of what you just said is anything I am arguing aside from the "concocted scenario".
Alucroas said:Enough of these attempts at using dead-end methods of arguing your points. I don't fall for them, I don't listen to them, and I don't acknowledge them as valid, but I will acknowledge their invalidity.
Alucroas said:Oops. Guess that means Casca will be even more pissed off when she finds out she only gets to see him once a month instead of twice. This is starting to feel like a custody battle.
Alucroas said:Last we saw her, she couldn't make the decision as to whether she loved Guts or Griffith
Alucroas said:Don't tell me you feel I'm being disingenuous, because I will throw it back in your face as far as this debate is concerned.
Alucroas said:Because the characters help to tell the story. If you can't grasp what I meant by "lens-seers" and other sensical stuff like that, then I can assure you, you'll be the only one not going anywhere.
Alucroas said:Relevancy, your honor?
Alucroas said:Well since you agree with so much, why don't you stop pretending to be the teacher, and I the student in your imaginary classroom.
Alucroas said:Saying otherwise means other people take different levels of convincing to believe what a person says.
Alucroas said:*Slap*
Don't troll me if you want me to take you seriously. That's why my responses are becoming less professional and more geared toward poking fun at their absurdities, while using them to aid my own arguments.