Episode 232

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SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Olivier Hague said:
That's not really the name of the city. The city is called "the Holy City/Capital" ("Seito"). And it looks like that's where the Holy See is.

It was referred to by Shierke and Farnese as the Vatican. And that wasn't just the translation that I used from the Hawks.

LG
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Olivier Hague said:
Well, the Holy See is also a good description. And at least, it's a description that makes sense.
Calling "Berserk"'s Holy See "the Vatican" is like calling the department of defense of some fictional country "the Pentagon" eventhough there's nothing "pentagonal" about it.

If it's referred to as the "Pentagon" in some other country you can bet that most people would sumrise that it's got something to do with defense even if it 'isn't shaped like a Pentagon.'

I stick to what I say. The Vatican was referred to by both Farnese and Shierke. It was where Farnese got her orders from for the Holy Iron Chain Knights...and it was the same power that persecuted the pagans for their beliefs and put the narrow-minded churches in their place. If you read the part where Shierke is lamenting over the loss of magic's influence and power, she's standing near a bunch of circular stones that resemble ' Easter Island/Stonehenge/Basic pagan stuff. She talks about how ...and I quote..." THE VATICAN" took away the old belief system. Which is why the witches had to go into the forest and live there so the wouldn't be persecuted. Sound familiar? Kind of like real-life history?

In the section where Charlotte talks to GUTS and CO on their way down to see poor old Griffith in the Tower, she tells the legend/story of how " FOUR ANGELS" destroyed Gaiseric's empire. I also saw that translated as FOUR KINGS. Angels, Kings, whatever...it amounts to four 'things' with an incredible amount of power and force to be able to bring down a kingdom as great as Gaiseric. How much do you want to bet it's the four elementals? And has nothing to do with God Hand?

And yes, by the way, Void was the 'minister' that MOSGUZ referred to. After he finishes slamming his head down a thousand times, he tells Farnese and Serpico that " In this very chamber, a wise man was being tortured, and called down the powers..." wise man=Void. Who the fuck do you think became the first God Hand and it's leader?

By the way Olivier, it's okay to admit you're just another fan of Berserk and that you're not Miura himself. My friend from Japan tells me that you are on the French BBS boards quite often and you're every bit as arrogant and condescending there as well. When I was telling her to check out the long thread about how you didn't believe me that copies of volume 26 were already obtainable BEFORE they were officially released from the publisher, she wasn't surprised. The sad thing is, other members here told me how a few years ago, you were actually nice and not this 'know it all' arrogant person that you are now. It's kind of a shame because I think Miura himself would be shitting if he knew just how much of an attitude you have. Now HE'S the one I would give hats off to.

Do here's from I don't Give A Shit About Being Hagued ( or banned, for that matter). I'm not about to kiss the ass of someone here when there are plenty of other members who have demonstrated the ability to give just as decent translations, not to mention scans of the latest YA chapters...without the attitude.
 

Darok

Melancholy (Holy Martyr)
You ever walk into a room, look around, and see that your mom is standing there in bloodstained panties toting a knife, and good ol' dad, with a shotgun welded to his crotch, is shooting his "load" all over her?

Yeah, that's what posting here feels like.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Isn't that what SkullLord wants LOL? Now that Walter is gone...which I think is personally the biggest tragedy here...I can't believe he'd give up on something that he put so much time and effort into ( YOU HEAR THAT WALTER??? AND I GAVE YOU THAT LOST CHILDREN STATUE !!!!).

LH
( LG no longer exists.)
 
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Lady Hagued said:
If it's referred to as the "Pentagon" in some other country you can bet that most people would sumrise that it's got something to do with defense even if it 'isn't shaped like a Pentagon.'
It's still stupid.
I stick to what I say. The Vatican was referred to by both Farnese and Shierke.
No, they say "Hôôchô". And calling the "Hôôchô" "the Vatican" doesn't make any sense, here.
and I quote...
... a translation. You do realize that, right?
the legend/story of how " FOUR ANGELS"
Or five.
I also saw that translated as FOUR KINGS.
Bad translation.
Angels, Kings, whatever...
Yeah, it's all the same, right?
And yes, by the way, Void was the 'minister' that MOSGUZ referred to.
1) You don't know that.
2) He doesn't say anything about a "minister".
" In this very chamber, a wise man
See?
was being tortured, and called down the powers..." wise man=Void.
You don't know that.
Who the fuck do you think became the first God Hand and it's leader?
1) We don't know if Void was the first God Hand.
2) According to your theory, the guy called the Four Kings of the World. What does it have to do with him becoming a God Hand? Did Schierke become a God Hand?
When I was telling her to check out the long thread about how you didn't believe me that copies of volume 26 were already obtainable BEFORE they were officially released from the publisher
I simply said that volume 26 wouldn't be released at that time. And that's not when it was released.
I also said that the offical release date was made official by the publisher. And that's true, obviously.
As for your friend getting copies a couple of weeks early because she has connections, maybe it's true. Personally, I have no reason to believe you, but hey.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Olivier Hague said:
It's still stupid.No, they say "hôôchô". And calling the "hôôchô" "the Vatican" doesn't make any sense, here.... a translation. You do realize that, right?Or five.Bad translation.Yeah, it's all the same, right?1) You don't know that.
2) He doesn't say anything about a "minister".See?You don't know that.1) We don't know if Void was the first God Hand.
2) According to your theory, the guy called the Four Kings of the World. What does it have to do with him becoming a God Hand? Did Schierke become a God Hand?I simply said that volume 26 wouldn't be released at that time. And that's not when it was released.
I also said that the offical release date was made official by the publicher. And that's true, obviously.
As for your friend getting copies a couple of weeks early because she has connections, maybe it's true. Personnally, I have no reason to believe you, but hey.

You have no reason to DISbelieve me either LOL.

I think what the problem here is you're not able to connect the 'real world' with the 'Berserk world' so therefore, talking of things like the Vatican or Holy See ( which is a real word in the real world, referring to the POPE), don't make sense.

Let's say there was FIVE angels/kings/beings. The FIFTH elemental could be SHADOW. That was the deadliest of all the elementals. Earth, Fire, Water, Wind, and Shadow. There you have it. So either way you look at it, four or five, there's a thing called elementals...

Now you're simply saying that referring to the Pentagon/defense is 'still stupid.' There ya go. YOU think it's stupid. That doesn't mean other members here or other people won't think it makes sense to call the Holy City the Vatican. ( or we could also say Jerusalem, but given Berserk's world, with the Churches, priests, Holy Iron Chain Knights...it has a very strong CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC element to its theme...so therefore, the Vatican would sumrise as the Holy City, which, I say again,and will continue to say, Farnese and Shierke both refer to.

Mosguz was the one who said " a wise man was being tortured" in the VERY CHAMBERS where he did his gruesome thousand head knocks ritual. This wise man, while being tortured, called down the 4( or 5) angels to destroy the kingdom of Gaiseric. Now, Mosguz was the one who clearly stated this. He did not say 'minister' per se, but I can sumrise myself, as with most people, and they have here before, that Void was some kind of wizard/magician/holy man or even a minister simply by looking at a motive as to why Gaiseric would have him tortured to begin with.

Where did I ever refer to Shierke becoming a God Hand? Where would I even infer that she would become a GodHand? She's a practioner of magic and someone who was aware that those who practiced it could be persecuted by the Vatican ( in fact that was the exact sentence where that dreaded word of yours, Vatican, was used). Take a look at why Flora lives in the woods to begin with! Because she and her kind, those pagan followers of the old religions Shierke referred to, would be persecuted and at worst, burned at the stake.

In fact, if you look very closely at the events in BERSERK's World, you will see they parallel very closely the events in the REAL WORLD historically. The Catholic Church did indeed do exactly what Shierke is speaking about in the REAL WORLD. It's obvious that Miura himself has used as inspiration real events and real cultural phemonena in his storyline. Why is that so hard to believe that there is a Vatican in the world of Berserk as well as in the real world? As well as a Holy See? As well as persecution of 'heretics' ( pagans) and the Plague that destroyed many people in Europe, as well as in Berserk?
The reason why anyone would become a Godhand is because of one thing: they had the red behelit. And somehow that behelit was tied in with all the other events that are leading up to the Apocalpyse with Griffith at the helm.

Mosguz refers to this 'wise man'...and since Mosguz was a religious fanatic himself, the way he spoke of this 'wise man' was REVERENTIAL. I like to think reading BEHIND and BETWEEN the lines, Olivier, is another source of finding meaning, not just word for word translation. Of course, that's the MOST important. But you can also sumrise from imaging how the characters look, talk, and think to add to the story translation as well.

NOW, taking THAT into play, a 'wise man' ( the exact words Mosguz used) then could also POSSIBLY BE a priest, minister, or even a magician or wizard who somehow had the connections/power/KNOWLEDGE to summon the angels/kings down from the sky to destroy the kingdom.

If it was four angels, I say it's earth, wind, fire and water.

If it was FIVE, I'd say it's earth, wind, fire, water, and SHADOW, the fifth and most unstable elemental of all.

LG
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
About the name "Holy See" :
see here means diocese: Holy See for the Catholich Church means the See ( diocese) of Saint Peter ( the first Pope , that was martyrized at Rome, that is considered his diocese and of all the Popes, his successors) .

http://catholicism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholic.net%2FRCC%2FIndices%2Fsubs%2Fvatican.html

In the world of Berserk I suppose it means something like " the diocese of the founder of the church" or something like that.

EDIT
This is what the catolich church consider the real "Holy See":

St. Peter's Basilica

In the main altar is a wooden throne encased in bronze, said to have been used by Saint Peter

http://goitaly.about.com/cs/rome/a/vatican.htm?iam=momma_100_SKD&terms=%22vatican%22
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Yes I stated that the Holy See, according to the dictionary as well as OpusDei, the Catholic Church's society, that it means and refers to the POPE.

But in the Berserk world, I believe it refers to some kind of prophecy writing. I'll have to look back on old translations and manga to find the actual sentence where the Holy See is referred to as an actual document, or some kind of text similiar to the Bible. And when I get it up here, Olivier can eat his own coeur.



LH
 
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Lady Hagued said:
I think what the problem here is you're not able to connect the 'real world' with the 'Berserk world' so therefore, talking of things like the Vatican or Holy See ( which is a real word in the real world, referring to the POPE)
There's a Pope in the world of "Berserk".
There's no "Vatican Hill" in the world of "Berserk".
Let's say there was FIVE angels/kings/beings.
Again, nobody called them "kings".
The FIFTH elemental could be SHADOW.
And for all we know, there's a sixth one. And a seventh one.
there's a thing called elementals...
And there are things called "theories".
Now you're simply saying that referring to the Pentagon/defense is 'still stupid.' There ya go. YOU think it's stupid.
It is.
call the Holy City the Vatican.
So now, you're using the same word for the Holy City ("Seito") and the Holy See ("Hôôchô")? ^^;
or we could also say Jerusalem
"Avignon" would make more sense. Of course, it would still be stupid.
This wise man, while being tortured, called down the 4( or 5) angels to destroy the kingdom of Gaiseric.
Mozgus didn't say anything about the number of angels, actually.
He did not say 'minister' per se
He didn't say "minister" at all.
I can sumrise myself, as with most people, and they have here before, that Void was some kind of wizard/magician/holy man or even a minister simply by looking at a motive as to why Gaiseric would have him tortured to begin with.
1) You're still assuming that was Void being tortured. You don't know that.
2) You're also assuming about why the wiseman was being tortured.
since Mosguz was a religious fanatic himself, the way he spoke of this 'wise man' was REVERENTIAL. Taking that into play, a wise man then could also be a priest, minister
Keyword being "could".
or even a magician or wizard
I thought they didn't like pagans?
who somehow had the connections/power/KNOWLEDGE to summon the angels/kings
Nobody said anything about them being "kings".
Lady Hagued said:
the Holy See, according to the dictionary as well as OpusDei, the Catholic Church's society, that it means and refers to the POPE.
Not just the Pope.
in the Berserk world, I believe it refers to some kind of prophecy writing.
And you're wrong.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
SKuLL LoRD_GRiFfiTH_LoST said:
HOLY GOD ARE YOU WRONG!

B IS FOR THE BAD TRANSLATIONS YOUR PROMOTING! A IS FOR ATTIUTUDE YOUR SHOWING! N IS FOR NOT LISTENING TO THE HAGUE! N IS FOR NOT SHUTTING UP YOU HAG! E IS FOR ENDING UP ALL UPPITY AND DEFENSIVE! AND D IS FOR GOD-DAMMIT, SEXTEPPLPOSTING!?!

PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER, THEY SPELL

banned.gif

OKAY, I JUST HAD TO GET THAT OUT OF MY SYSTEM! NO BANNING TODAY! BUT ARE YOU OKAY? GOT ALL THAT OLIVIER-ANGST OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM YET? OR DO YOU NEED A FEW MORE UPPITY-DEFENSIVE POSTS TO MAKE THE POINT THAT YOU ARE IN FACT A WOMAN? JESUS!!! STOP POSTING FOR CHRISTSSAKES! IT’S EMBARASSING!! YOU JUST KEEP DIGGING THE HOLE DEEPER! I PERSONALLY CAN’T WAIT FOR THE HAGUE TO SLAM DUNK YOU ON THIS, BUT LET ME BREAK IT DOWN FOR YOU ANYWAY:

OLIVIER:
ghost.gif
YUO:
ghost.gif


YEAH, OLIVIER SEEMS TO BE THE REAL INSECURE ONE ABOUT ALL THIS! HAHAHA!!!!22!21 OLILVIER READS JAPANESE! YOU HAVE SOME CHEESEDICK TRANSLATIONS YOU’VE JUST PINNED YOUR EGO TO BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOMETHING PERSONAL AGAINST OUR BERSERK GURU.MY QUESTION; HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WILL THIS END WELL FOR YOU? OH, AND YOU SHOULD KISS OLIVIERS ASS BECAUSE HE’S GOING TO KICK YOURS, AND YOU’VE MADE IT A PREETY BIG TARGET! HAHAHAHAHA!!! THIS IS BETTER THAN MY STORIES ON CHANNEL 7!!!!11!! BTW, IT’S CALLED THE “MODIFY” BUTTON AND ITS OUR FRIEND!

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
ghost.gif


No, actually my mother can read and write fluent Japanese, as that is her heritage. So I don't just have cheesedick translations, hollowhead...I have someone who writes, speaks, and understands Japanese as a FIRST LANGUAGE. Okay? Now that you're done lambasting ME for once, let me tell you something. Everyone here on this board is sick to death of you. You've pretty much managed to undo a lot of good things Walter did...and his worst mistake was to put you in charge. Can't say I really know what he saw in you other than the obvious sense of sick humor you have. So you know what? You can fucking ban me. If you want to insult me as a woman, go ahead! Who the fuck do you think gave birth to you, you fucking asswipe? You think you fell out of the sky from your father's underwear? Get realistic about your origins before you haul my gender into this shit.

Now you can ban me, fry me, Hague me, do whatever the fuck you want! You're on such a power trip, your big head and your little head must be the same size.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Olivier Hague said:
There's a Pope in the world of "Berserk".
There's no "Vatican Hill" in the world of "Berserk".Again, nobody called them "kings".And for all we know, there's a sixth one. And a seventh one.And there are things called "theories".It is.So now, you're using the same word for the Holy City ("Seito") and the Holy See ("Hôôchô")? ^^;"Avignon" would make more sense. Of course, it would still be stupid.Mozgus didn't say anything about the number of angels, actually.He didn't say "minister" at all.1) You're still assuming that was Void being tortured. You don't know that.
2) You're also assuming about why the wiseman was being tortured.Keyword being "could".I thought they didn't like pagans?Nobody said anything about them being "kings".Not just the Pope.And you're wrong.

Mosguz was the one who referred to the wise man being 'tortured' in the very chambers that he banged his head in. That happens, by the way, to be called PENANCE.But I digress. MOSGUZ was the one who referred to the wise man whom I sumrise was VOID, calling down the angels. I said CHARLOTTE was the one who was telling the story of these ANGELS, and yes, she said specifically, it was either four OR five, to Guts and Co when they were spiralling down in the abyss down to get Griffith out. You're getting mixed up here in your haste to be right, sweetie. I haven't seen this much reply from you since I decided to add my theories ( and that's what you said they were, right? THEORIES. So if it's a THEORY, then we can both be right, and we can both be wrong). Guess you decided to come down to earth over there to converse with an American, even if it's on a BBS board? LOL.

Charlotte's translations, my mother said, could be sumrised as either KINGS or ANGELS or even HEAD HONCHOS. Yup, that's right, HEAD HONCHOS. I'll put that in for good humor. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but someone who speaks Japanese as a first language and writes kanji isn't going to make much of a margin for error.

Avignon? LOL. Nope, that French city won't work. It's the Vatican. Quit saying Hill because the Vatican is the Vatican, SANS Hill.

If there's a sixth one, I have yet to see it mentioned anywhere in Berserk's manga. Could you throw up text and translations LOL of that possibility, or is all this going back and forth rattling your world a bit?

NO ONE is sure that's true whether it was Four or Five angels. But whatever number, I can tell you now...my gut feeling says ELEMENTALS. What GodHand members were possibly existing at the time when Gaiseric was king?

LG
 
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Lady Hagued said:
I didn't say Mosguz referred to the angels, I said CHARLOTTE was the one who was telling the story
No, you said "This wise man, while being tortured, called down the 4( or 5) angels to destroy the kingdom of Gaiseric". Charlotte didn't say that.
Charlotte's translations, my mother said, could be sumrised as either KINGS or ANGELS.
Your mother is wrong.
Avignon? LOL. Nope, that French city won't work.
The Holy See was based there from 1309 to 1378.
the Vatican is the Vatican, SANS Hill.
The Vatican is called "the Vatican" because of the hill.
If there's a sixth one, I have yet to see it mentioned anywhere in Berserk's manga.
You never know.
Could you throw up text and translations LOL of that possibility
Well, Schierke never said there were _five_ elements. Before the Darkness was mentioned as an "element", we could believe there were only four of them.
my gut feeling says ELEMENTALS.
In other words, it's just a theory.
 
R

Radzeke

Guest
Lady Hagued said:
No, actually my mother can read and write fluent Japanese, as that is her heritage. So I don't just have cheesedick translations, hollowhead...I have someone who writes, speaks, and understands Japanese as a FIRST LANGUAGE. Okay? Now that you're done lambasting ME for once, let me tell you something. Everyone here on this board is sick to death of you. You've pretty much managed to undo a lot of good things Walter did...and his worst mistake was to put you in charge. Can't say I really know what he saw in you other than the obvious sense of sick humor you have. So you know what? You can fucking ban me. If you want to insult me as a woman, go ahead! Who the fuck do you think gave birth to you, you fucking asswipe? You think you fell out of the sky from your father's underwear? Get realistic about your origins before you haul my gender into this shit.

Now you can ban me, fry me, Hague me, do whatever the fuck you want! You're on such a power trip, your big head and your little head must be the same size.

OKAY, I WILL BE SERIOUS FOR ONCE BECAUSE I LOVE MY MOTHER AND ANYONE WHO DOESN’T IS A SUCKA! AND I’M SURE YOUR MOTHER KNOWS HER SHIT IF ITS HER FIRST LANGUAGE! THEN THE PROBLEM MUST BE…

JUDGES?

YOU!

ALL OLIVIER WAS SAYING, IF I'M CORRECTO, IS THAT THE CHARACTERS DON’T ACTUALLY CALL IT “THE VATICAN.” THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT ISN’T BASED ON THE VATICAN, WHICH IT OBVIOUSLY IS. IT’S AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO THE VATICAN AS YOU SAY. BUT THE BERSERK WORLD ISN’T ACTUALLY MEDIEVEL EUROPE IS IT? SO IN BERSERK IT’S THE HOLY WHATEVER IT’S CALLED. AS I UNDERSTAND IT LISTENING TO BOTH YOUR ARGUMENTS. YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT, BUT YOU AREN’T FIGHTING THE SAME ARGUMENT!!!! HAHAHAHA! AND YOU’RE PUSHING YOUR POSITION TO SUCH AN EXTREME IT BECOMES WRONG! THE REST OF YOUR ARGUMENTS WITH EACH OTHER ARE FULL OF THE SAME TYPE OF CRAP! MIXING THEORIES WITH FACTS AND BERSERK WORLD FACTS WITH REFERENCES THE AUTHOR IS MAKING OUTSIDE OF THE STORY TO THE WORLD! HAHAHA! HOW FUNNY IS THAT!?

LET ME DIGRESS THOUGH TO THE DEEPER STUFF OF THIS ARGUMENT, THIS NEW PHENOMINON; OLIVIER-ENVY! YOU KEEP CHALLENGING OLIVIER, SAYING HE THINKS HE’S ALL KNOWING BUT IS NOT! THIS IS TRUE! BUT HE MAY BE RIGHT JUST THE SAME! AT LEAST THE ARGUMENT HE’S MAKING! BUT YOU KEEP MAKING IT PERSONAL! YOU EVEN BROUGHT YOUR MOTHER INTO IT HAHA! YOU CANT WRITE THIS STUFF! WHILE HE JUST STAYS FACTUAL AND TO THE POINT! ALSO YOU CONTINUALLY LAUNCH PETTY PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST HIM BECAUSE OF SOME GRUDGE! AND HE HASN’T EVEN RESPONDED TO ONE OF THOSE LAME BARBS! SO WHO IS REALLY BEING AN ARROGANT ASSHOLE HERE TRYING DESPERATLY TO BE RIGHT!? ALL I’M SAYING IS, THE ONLY THING YOU ARE PROVING RIGHT NOW, IS THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO PROVE!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!11@! BUT KEEP THE GOOD TIMES ROLLING GUYS! FEUNNEY STUFF! LOTS OF HATE AND DISCONTENT!!!! HAHAHA!!!

AND YES! MY FORESKIN IS THE SIZE OF A HUMAN HEAD; MUCH AS MY DICK IS SIX FEET LONG!!!

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
ghost.gif
 

puella

Berserk forever
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Lady Hagued said:
Charlotte's translations, my mother said, could be sumrised as either KINGS or ANGELS or even HEAD HONCHOS. Yup, that's right, HEAD HONCHOS. I'll put that in for good humor. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but someone who speaks Japanese as a first language and writes kanji isn't going to make much of a margin for error.

Well. there are really the words of king and angels in the panel.
But it isn't like what you said.
It says

"....But god who wouldn't put up with the deed of the Skeleton King any more sent five angels down to the world..."

And LG, can you give us the page number with "Vatican" ?
I think I've never read that word in berserk?

As for Holy See, I think it's something like religious headquarters.
And we use usually the kanji "chô" in "Hôôchô"(Holy See) for some place or authorities or building.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
As soon as I find the word Vatican in the manga translations I have I will post it here. I can also send it to you via e mail as well in a scan with translations. But I would not be arguing about something here if I did not feel I was right about it.

Okay so there we have it. ANGELS. Not kings. But coming from someone to whom Japanese is a first language, don't you think it's a bit broad to translate as angels, kings, AND head honchos? Sorry, Puella LOL you might not understand the last one, 'head honchos.' It's a slang for leaders.

Let me also find the part about the Holy See. I am positive that it refers to some kind of biblical text prophecy thing. ( whoa, what a description). But in 'real life' Holy See=Pope. It could just be people around here get the SUBTLE translations lost.

OpusDei, a society of the Catholic Church, refers to the Holy See as the Pope.

Now, it COULD BE that my translations that I have here for those earlier manga volumes could have some errors. But I am POSITIVE it was Farnese, and SPECIFICALLY Shierke, who used the word VATICAN to refer to a 'holy city' in which the Pope of Berserk lives in. It may be that the translation I have was a bad one. But I can't imagine why something as specific as VATICAN can't also be interchanged with HOLY CITY, meaning they're words for the same thing: a spiritual/religious central.

In any case let me go back and find the translations and I'll post them here. As I said I can also e mail them as well.

LH
 

puella

Berserk forever
Lady Hagued said:
Sorry, Puella LOL you might not understand the last one, 'head honchos.' It's a slang for leaders.

::)
Why did you say that?
My former post was just about the line in the panel and my thought on Holy See since many people here had been talking about that. ???
 
R

Radzeke

Guest
puella said:
::)
Why did you say that?
My former post was just about the line in the panel and my thought on Holy See since many people here had been talking about that. ???
I’M GLAD LADY GRIFFITH IS NOT CONDESCENDING LIKE THAT OLIVIER!

HEY PUELLA, DID YOU GET THAT!!!???

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
ghost.gif
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Re:Olivier/ Hagued, who gives a shit?

Olivier Hague said:
No, you said "This wise man, while being tortured, called down the 4( or 5) angels to destroy the kingdom of Gaiseric". Charlotte didn't say that.Your mother is wrong.The Holy See was based there from 1309 to 1378.The Vatican is called "the Vatican" because of the hill.You never know.Well, Schierke never said there were _five_ elements. Before the Darkness was mentioned as an "element", we could believe there were only four of them.In other words, it's just a theory.

Olivier


I think you're getting mixed up here as to WHO SAID WHAT. I specifically stated that CHARLOTTE said it was " four or five angels came down and destroyed Gaiseric's empire.

I did NOT say she was the one who mentioned the WISE MAN BEING TORTURED. I mentioned MOSGUZ was the one who said that.

Yes, I am aware that Avignon was the city in which the Holy See was based during those years. In fact that was mentioned in a tour I took of the city many years ago as part of a LOL Catholic tour of Europe.

However, the Vatican is not referred to specifically as Vatican Hill anymore than the Capitol is referred to as Capitol Hill in the US. Both may be on 'hills' but most and nearly all Catholics refer to the Vatican as simply that, SANS hill. That's why I was stating it as plainly as I could when I said Shierke referred to this city, the 'Vatican', the holy city/center, in which the powers of the Church became such that they persecuted the pagans.

You stated that ' I thought they didn't like pagans?' when referring to my THEORY that Void was indeed the wise man being tortured, whom MOSGUZ spoke about. His words were spoken reverentially, as with many fanatics do about fellow or other martyrs of a religious nature.You're from France and you might or might not be Catholic, but you know what I mean. Mosguz was telling Farnese and Serpico that in the chambers where he was banging his head for penance, that " You know, here in these very chambers once, a wise man was tortured..." and then from that, I also sumrised that this wise man being tortured must have been Void. We know Void and SK have a grudge. It's been theorized, and
speculated that SK of course, is Gaiseric. Sumrising from that, this 'wise man' must have been Void when he was obviously human.

Possessing the red behelit as all GodHand members must, then he may have used that, or his own powers and knowledge of magic/wisdom/whatever it may be, to call down the four/five angels to destroy the kingdom of Gaiseric. I'm sure that's probably why Gaiseric and Void have a long-standing grudge, but there may be more to it. On the other hand, remember that the bodies at the bottom of that 'pit' that Charlotte and Guts and Co were looking into so to speak, all the skeletons/bodies there bore the brand of sacrifice. My theory? Void as a human 'wise man' who owned the red behelit summoned the elementals to destroy the kingdom. Slann may have followed suit as the next Godhand as she may have been Void's mistress...somehow connected to Gaiseric since he referred to her as the mother of all prostitutes LOL. It could be...that Gaiseric 'caught' Void and Slann together as human lovers and threw Void in the torture chamber, from whence he then appealed to the 'angels.'

As you said, a 6th or 7th angel or whatever...yes that is a possibility... But NO WHERE has it been read about or seen SO FAR in Berserk. I was simply going by what has been presented HERE AND NOW, up to the current translated chapters. And that was the FOUR OR FIVE angels. It's more BELIEVABLE to me, that it was FOUR angels, because a kingdom doesn't need a shadow element to be destroyed. Powerful winds, floods, fires, earthquakes, hey, what more do you need?

LG
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
puella said:
::)
Why did you say that?
My former post was just about the line in the panel and my thought on Holy See since many people here had been talking about that. ???

I was JOKING, didn't you see the LOL after my statement? I was saying that if English is your second language you might not understand what I meant or what my mom meant by 'head honcho.' I was being funny, not facetious.

LG
 
Lady Hagued said:
As soon as I find the word Vatican in the manga translations I have
We don't care about what your translations say. They're just _translations_.
coming from someone to whom Japanese is a first language, don't you think it's a bit broad to translate as angels, kings, AND head honchos?
Oh, it certainly is.
"Tenshi" means "angel". That's all.
Your mother is wrong.
Let me also find the part about the Holy See. I am positive that it refers to some kind of biblical text prophecy thing.
You're wrong.
in 'real life' Holy See=Pope.
Again: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Holy%20See
It may be that the translation I have was a bad one.
No shit.
 
R

Radzeke

Guest
Lady Hagued said:
But I would not be arguing about something here if I did not feel I was right about it.
I THINK “FEELING” YOU ARE RIGHT INSTEAND OF KNOWING YOU ARE RIGHT IS THE PROBLEM HERE!
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Lady Hagued said:
Okay so there we have it. ANGELS. Not kings. But coming from someone to whom Japanese is a first language, don't you think it's a bit broad to translate as angels, kings, AND head honchos? Sorry, Puella LOL you might not understand the last one, 'head honchos.' It's a slang for leaders.

HAHAHA! ARROGANT OLIVIER COULD LEARN SOME MANNERS FROM YOU! MAYBE IF YOU TYPE IN CAPS LOCK VERY SLOWLY SHE’LL UNDERSTAND!! THAT’S WHY I TYPE LIKE THIS!

IT’S NOT WORKING THOUGH!
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Lady Hagued said:
Let me also find the part about the Holy See. I am positive that it refers to some kind of biblical text prophecy thing. ( whoa, what a description). But in 'real life' Holy See=Pope. It could just be people around here get the SUBTLE translations lost.
AGAIN, HOW HUMBLE AND CLASSY OF YOU! I’M GLAD YOU COME OUT AND SAY HOW STUPID EVERYONE IS, OLIVIER JUST SAYS FACTS THAT MAKE PEOPLE LOOK DUMB FOR BEING WRONG… LIKE A JERK!
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Lady Hagued said:
Now, it COULD BE that my translations that I have here for those earlier manga volumes could have some errors. But I am POSITIVE it was Farnese, and SPECIFICALLY Shierke, who used the word VATICAN to refer to a 'holy city' in which the Pope of Berserk lives in. It may be that the translation I have was a bad one. But I can't imagine why something as specific as VATICAN can't also be interchanged with HOLY CITY, meaning they're words for the same thing: a spiritual/religious central.
UH OH! NOT SO FIERY AND CONFIDENT AS WE WERE! PSHYCHING UP FOR THE BIG L UH?

“OH I’M SORRY I WAS WRONG! BUT I’M SMARTER THAN YOU GUYS STILL BECAUSE I WAS ON THE CATHEOLIC TOUR OF EUROPE!!”

HAHAHAHA!!!11 MUST SEE SK-TV!!!12

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
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SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
SKuLL LoRD_GRiFfiTH_LoST said:
OKAY, I WILL BE SERIOUS FOR ONCE BECAUSE I LOVE MY MOTHER AND ANYONE WHO DOESN’T IS A SUCKA! AND I’M SURE YOUR MOTHER KNOWS HER SHIT IF ITS HER FIRST LANGUAGE! THEN THE PROBLEM MUST BE…

JUDGES?

YOU!

ALL OLIVIER WAS SAYING, IF I'M CORRECTO, IS THAT THE CHARACTERS DON’T ACTUALLY CALL IT “THE VATICAN.” THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT ISN’T BASED ON THE VATICAN, WHICH IT OBVIOUSLY IS. IT’S AN OBVIOUS REFERENCE TO THE VATICAN AS YOU SAY. BUT THE BERSERK WORLD ISN’T ACTUALLY MEDIEVEL EUROPE IS IT? SO IN BERSERK IT’S THE HOLY WHATEVER IT’S CALLED. AS I UNDERSTAND IT LISTENING TO BOTH YOUR ARGUMENTS. YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT, BUT YOU AREN’T FIGHTING THE SAME ARGUMENT!!!! HAHAHAHA! AND YOU’RE PUSHING YOUR POSITION TO SUCH AN EXTREME IT BECOMES WRONG! THE REST OF YOUR ARGUMENTS WITH EACH OTHER ARE FULL OF THE SAME TYPE OF CRAP! MIXING THEORIES WITH FACTS AND BERSERK WORLD FACTS WITH REFERENCES THE AUTHOR IS MAKING OUTSIDE OF THE STORY TO THE WORLD! HAHAHA! HOW FUNNY IS THAT!?

LET ME DIGRESS THOUGH TO THE DEEPER STUFF OF THIS ARGUMENT, THIS NEW PHENOMINON; OLIVIER-ENVY! YOU KEEP CHALLENGING OLIVIER, SAYING HE THINKS HE’S ALL KNOWING BUT IS NOT! THIS IS TRUE! BUT HE MAY BE RIGHT JUST THE SAME! AT LEAST THE ARGUMENT HE’S MAKING! BUT YOU KEEP MAKING IT PERSONAL! YOU EVEN BROUGHT YOUR MOTHER INTO IT HAHA! YOU CANT WRITE THIS STUFF! WHILE HE JUST STAYS FACTUAL AND TO THE POINT! ALSO YOU CONTINUALLY LAUNCH PETTY PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST HIM BECAUSE OF SOME GRUDGE! AND HE HASN’T EVEN RESPONDED TO ONE OF THOSE LAME BARBS! SO WHO IS REALLY BEING AN ARROGANT ASSHOLE HERE TRYING DESPERATLY TO BE RIGHT!? ALL I’M SAYING IS, THE ONLY THING YOU ARE PROVING RIGHT NOW, IS THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO PROVE!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!11@! BUT KEEP THE GOOD TIMES ROLLING GUYS! FEUNNEY STUFF! LOTS OF HATE AND DISCONTENT!!!! HAHAHA!!!

AND YES! MY FORESKIN IS THE SIZE OF A HUMAN HEAD; MUCH AS MY DICK IS SIX FEET LONG!!!

SKuLL LoRD ------)----@
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First of all, DickLord,

I DO have something to prove. That the word VATICAN was the specific word used by people, Farnese and especially Shierke. Olivier says it was nowhere mentioned in Berserk. I disagree and say that I read that in a specific translation of the manga. If I thought Olivier was trying to say it was 'Vaticanlike' or 'like the Vatican' and that really was the case,I wouldn't bother to dissent the fact that it was Vatican like or 'something exists in the berserk world that is LIKE the Vatican."

What I specifically read was THE VATICAN. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

He knows he's arrogant, why should he dissent that with a member of the board who simply stated what she thought? I could name other SK members who have been longtime posters here, as well as my friend in Japan, who doesn't normally say a bad word about ANYONE on ANY board, and coming from someone who knows the AOW people personally, is friends with Kentaro Miura himself...coming from HER, to state that she believed Olivier was both extremely arrogant and CONDESCENDING? I don't take her opinion lightly. AT ALL. So if you think that because someone thinks he's an arrogant, 'looks down on everyone else' kind of guy, I'm certainly not the only one with that opinion. And an opinion can be misconstrued as a 'personal attack' when in fact it is simply that...an opinion. But if other people feel the same way I think it's safe to sumrise that I'm not the only one 'personally' attacking....Olivier? LOL.

People with theories or who know they have seen things mentioned SPECIFICALLY in print and translations ARE trying to prove something. They are trying to prove their theory or what they say is backed by something. I don't have the manga in my hands at this MOMENT, so as soon as I get it, I will certainly post where it states VATICAN and HOLY SEE. OF COURSE I'm trying to prove something...that Olivier is mistaken because those two words, Vatican, were mentioned...and I don't see YOU offering disproof of that, and the other word, HOLY SEE, was mentioned in context of what I considered to be a translation that was referring to something of a Bible or a prophecy. So if YOU'RE point was to hit below the belt and say I am trying to show that I have 'something to prove.' Well no SHIT, SHERLOCK, all the speculations and theories we have here, whether it comes from Olivier, you, me, or any other member, are things that in time would like to be PROVEN to be TRUE. I wouldn't bring up something as trivial as two words or something regarding elementals, or a wise man whom I believe is Void, if I didn't HAVE something to prove. MY THEORY and WHAT I HAVE READ AND SUMRISED FROM MY TEXT AND SCANLATIONS.

As far as me 'attacking' Olivier, I hate to say it, but my opinion of the man is that he is arrogant, and if that's wrong to say because you feel it's so 'personal', tough shit. Go beat off to make yourself fall asleep or something. I feel that while he adds a great deal to this board, his attitude is that 'he knows it all' and HE DOESN'T. He's NOT MIURA, and he didn't believe that I was able to obtain copies ahead of time from the actual publishing release. So to me, that's arrogance. If YOU think it's arrogant for me to state my opinion of a person who at one time, former and older Sk BBS members have told me, was actually a lot NICER and LESS KNOW-IT-ALL, then that's too bad, because I'm not the only person on this board who thinks Olivier Hague is an ARROGANT KNOW IT ALL. Anyone who thinks they KNOW IT ALL don't. The less a man talks, in fact, the more he knows. I don't have to start quoting famous philosiphers now, do I?

He doesn't leave room for other people's theories or even admit if there's a POSSIBILITY he could be WRONG. And it isn't just the 'post only so often' members who agree with me about his arrogance...this comes from some members who remember him when this board was barely in existence over two years ago.

So let me just tell you something, SK. It's NOT a personal affront to Olivier, or to you or anyone who admires him, for me to state that he is ARROGANT. An opinion does not necessitate, nor does it facilitate, personal attacking. If I say you're a piece of shit, so fucking what? LOL. Does that mean it's personal? Hell nah...it's an opinion. YOU can CHOOSE to take it personal and as an attack.

Now Puella even told me long ago that sometimes her english got a little off and that was why I was joking about the 'head honcho' thing because I didn't think she would understand what that meant in English slang. It was not meant as anything else but to let her know what it meant, and in humor, not sarcasm.

LG
 

Kart

Resident /b/tard
I believe Shriek said that "The four angels you worship are the same as the four elements" during the time they defended the town, i will look this up more indepth later on but I believe lady griffiths idea the fifth element of shadow (it is mentioned) is likely as any other guess, and since we just now ARRIVED at five god hands if five angels did decend it would probably be elements not god hands, i'll post more accuratly in the morning.

PS. I just came up with this and i don't want to lose my thought over night so here it is.

as was said "karma is a spiral" I think this may be the reason Gutts wasn't in the tower that griffith was, It may have been originally geasric becomes king with the wiseman at his side (Gutts being wiseman griffith being geasric Caska being zodd in this little play), the wiseman sees the country being destroyed and decides to speak out, Geasric dislikes this and locks him up in the tower, Caska is not a female but a male, still fiercly loyal to geasric, the wiseman is tortured but prays for salvation to the elements and they come and strike down the kingdom, Geasric has the red behelit, its activated and he sacrifices his falling kingdom for a much greater destiny and void is born. The wiseman rescued by the elements becomes the skull knight (possibly summon shadow elements while donning some armor and he got consumed (lazy explaination)) the equal of caska is turned into zodd the immortal who doesn't like the wiseman for the same reasons caska originally didn't like gutts.


There you have it, a spiral of karma involving a fantastic little play of characters. (will edit it tomorrow and improve the idea)
 
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