Episode 255

Walter said:
However Xech, I think I get your point. You think that even now, Serpico will stand down at some point in the duel, acknowledging his defeat, but still wanting to live. And hopping away, he'll say "My only pair of shoes, too!"  I disagree. This duel has finality (and fatality  ;D ) to it. 
Serpico has always escaped by various tricks when Guts were to kill him and that was when Guts could also kill him without any remorse- Serpico was just an obstacle.
That is point number one that I believe you minimize.
Point number two is that Guts could care about Serpico at this point -he definatelly sees him with a different point than before at least. Let me just repeat about Guts warmth feeling about his new companions.
Point number three is that Serpico's character's cause isn't to assasinate Guts first place. Besides that could damage also Farnese's relationship as you said. Or does Serpico plan to dispatch all of them, the whole company -Schierke, Isidro, Puck and Ivarella to say? I profoundly disagree.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Point number three is that Serpico's character's cause isn't to assasinate Guts first place. Besides that could damage also Farnese's relationship as you said. Or does Serpico plan to dispatch all of them, the whole company -Schierke, Isidro, Puck and Ivarella to say? I profoundly disagree.
Your first two points are good, and were indeed elements that I hadn't been focusing on.  But here, you drop the ball.  You seem to see Serpico as 100% calculated.  I believe he's more 90% calculated 10% romantic.  Even though logic states that he has no chance of winning the duel, he is devoted to her, and would, I believe, die for her.  His mission is to defeat Guts, to nip the hindrance in the bud.

If, by some freak accident Serpico were given the upper-hand in this duel, do you think he would hold back and NOT seize the chance to forever end the nuisance Guts has been to Farnese/Serpico's relationship? Would he sheathe his sword, wave his arms up, "Whoa! Why so serious? By now, Farnese is on a carriage! Ha ha! Ciao!"  I don't think so. 

As for becoming a serial child killer, I think that's a little far-fetched.  But, then again, he did kill his mother for Farnese.  8)

PS: I think we've both stated our points several times. Let's move on to the next level.  IF Serpico loses, but Guts, being the warm, sweety that he is, spares his life. What then? Would the defeated Serpico travel with the Band still? Guts would surely win Farnese back over. Would Serpico stand for that? Would the Band even let him back in? ;D Tune in next month!
 
Walter said:
I believe he's more 90% calculated 10% romantic.  Even though logic states that he has no chance of winning the duel, he is devoted to her, and would, I believe, die for her. 
I agree, and I furthermore believe that this isn't even a romantic point to actually die. Dieing at this point or even killing Guts would be 90% stupid or insane, 10% romantic.


Walter said:
If, by some freak accident Serpico were given the upper-hand in this duel, do you think he would hold back and NOT seize the chance to forever end the nuisance Guts has been to Farnese/Serpico's relationship? Would he sheathe his sword, wave his arms up, "Whoa! Why so serious? By now, Farnese is on a carriage! Ha ha! Ciao!"  I don't think so. 
I just don't see Serpico killing Guts even at this freak point. What I do see is that Guts should step back and not claim passage to Serpico by his sword anymore (remember also that there is some input of etiquete (Griffith-Guts duels). At this point perhaps Schierke should come ahead and claim passage.


Walter said:
As for becoming a serial child killer, I think that's a little far-fetched.  But, then again, he did kill his mother for Farnese.  8)
Yeap, if he killed Guts why shouldn't also go on and eliminate the rest to not let Farnese ever know. He didn't kill that Noble in that duel and now he is gona kill Guts if he could spare him?
Anyway, now the question would be how could he ever kill the two elves...oh those basterds!  ;D
 
Walter said:
For the first time since Millennium Falcon began, Farnese is physically and emotionally detached from the Band. This is Serpico's first opportunity to kill Guts and still maintain his relationship with Farnese.
Taking a step backwards, I felt this point was off base. It seems to me that Farnese is still _very_ attached to the group and is simply trying to sacrifice herserlf for their benefit. Basically, it's as if she is burning herself at the stake-- it's the only way she knows how to work. She burnt other people before, now she's doing it to herself, the way she made Serpico make his mommy crispy.

My point is mostly that the last few episodes have shown Farnese repeatedly cherising the artifacts of her time with the group, practicing her magic with the apple, reminiscing. I'm not saying she isn't being caught up in all the attention she's being payed by Magnifico and Roderick and her mom. That's true too. (And if that's what you meant by "emotionally detached" than I agree). I'm just saying there's adequate proof to justify that she seems to want to stay with the group too.

Was she simply warming herself by Gut's fire? I dunno for sure yet. I would say she's thrown her lot in with his, but we'll have to wait and see. Serpico definitely was though.

And that is why I think Serpico is so interesting. As I said before in the 255 thread, he's really working for himself here. He may not even know that himself. He may actually be lying to himself, and making himself think he's fight for her sake. In truth, though, he wants things to stay the same between him and Farnese, but things are changing, she's changing, and in ways that he is not necessarily changing with her. He's being left behind by her emotionally. He's fighting for selfish reasons. He's fighting for his desires, not for what is really best for Farnese.

He's stopping Guts here out of desperation-- it's obvious to most of us that he can't win, however good of a fight he were to put on, and I think he probably knows that too. Dueling Guts is a death wish. The only reason Serpico is fighting him, seems to me, is that Serpico is out of other ideas about how to stop Farnese's growing attachment to the group and to Guts, and this place is, tactically, a very good space for Serpico to fight.

Of course, Serpico hasn't really given us his dissertation yet on how he feels. Perhaps he'll go into more detail about why he's fighting in the next eps. :)
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
xechnao said:
You don't get it, perhaps you can't or you just don't want for whatever reason, don't know why. Let me make a final try to set a basis on this discussion:
Like I implied before, if a guy wants to really kill somebody in a script he just does so. Sets a fatal trap, shoots him or whatever. He doesn't present himself in front of the other guy and claims. Making offensive claims is part of a duel thing. Serpico has been traveling with Guts for some time. He isn't fatal towards Guts. Guts when he wanted to kill Donovan or king's brother he just shot them without warning -or even Griffith on the hill of swords. Serpico's case is different you see. He just duels on Guts to give Farnese some time.
I gave you some examples. Now, if you still disagree point out where exactly.
No, I think you're the one that doesn't understand, the situation or what I'm saying, I'm not saying you're totally wrong, but inaccurate (you also ignored everything I said but a quote you argued against out of context: THANKS). You're too attached to that single idea and are ignoring other important aspects of the situation, making simple presumptions about Serpico's motives and character. I'm just saying it's not so simple.

As for the trap point; this IS a trap. ::)

He obviously didn't have time to set up some Home Alone-esque situation, and he knows better than to think such a thing would work on Guts anyway. This is the only "trap" Guts himself would willingly walk right into to.

Also, I think you misunderstand me, like I think they're lusting to kill each other. I don't think that's the case, but I accept that they are certainly willing to.

Trust, I've seen this coming for a LONG time. Seriously, go look at all their scenes concerning the other again.
 
Goddamnit Xech

Walter said:
This topic diverged into Guts Vs Serpico and the rest can be found in Episode 255's thread, in the middle of Page 8, which is here.
Sorry, this is locked for some reason. I' ll post here my reply over there quoting the last post:

"Griffith No More!" said:
(you also ignored everything I said but a quote you argued against out of context: THANKS).
No, I think that phrase was on par with what you were saying: "tension" that can end up to a fatal point, no holds barred, wasn't it?
Something, which, I disagree.

"Griffith No More!" said:
You're too attached to that single idea and are ignoring other important aspects of the situation, making simple presumptions about Serpico's motives and character. I'm just saying it's not so simple.
"Griffith No More!" said:
As for the trap point; this IS a trap. ::)
It's not like the trap to catch a fox. Serpico presents himself, warns them and lets them know what they will face. A trap doesn't ask it's victim nor presents itself: it is supposed to do its work while hidden or disguised.

"Griffith No More!" said:
He obviously didn't have time to set up some Home Alone-esque situation, and he knows better than to think such a thing would work on Guts anyway. This is the only "trap" Guts himself would willingly walk right into to.
I agree: Serpico wants Guts to be willing for this: it's a duel of a sort, the way I put it.

"Griffith No More!" said:
Also, I think you misunderstand me, like I think they're lusting to kill each other. I don't think that's the case, but I accept that they are certainly willing to.

Trust, I've seen this coming for a LONG time. Seriously, go look at all their scenes concerning the other again.
Well, I still disagree with you quoting me first place on that very first remark.
Besides, Guts when he duelled with Griffith he stopped his sword just a second before. Griffith didn't care to kill him. I believe neither Serpico nor Guts share Griffith's willingness: rather they are more near Guts way of reaction. Not that they consider each other the way Guts considered Griffith, but anyway they are not to kill their adversary. Threaten him to the limit, but not kill him.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Re: Farnese, Casca, and Guts-- similar dynamics to the Band of the Hawk??

Well, I guess I'll agree to disagree since I'm not much on arguing the definition of a trap. Anyway, I still think there's more to it than that and suggest you take another look, as will I.
 
Re: Farnese, Casca, and Guts-- similar dynamics to the Band of the Hawk??

"Griffith No More!" said:
Well, I guess I'll agree to disagree since I'm not much on arguing the definition of a trap. Anyway, I still think there's more to it than that and suggest you take another look, as will I.
And that I will. :)
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I also concede nuetrality.  There's really no point in arguing this, since next episode will likely more concretely define the situation (for those who refuse to investigate), Serpico's motives being the foremost controversy.
 

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
There isn't any room for Seripico amongst the relationships Farnese is currently developing either.

He's lost either way.

Maybe this way he can at least force Farnese to acknowlege some sort of emotion for him. And then die.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Meh at large.
"Griffith No More!" said:
I'm reminded every time I post. ;D

But seriously, Schierke needs to straighten out her priorities. I'm starting to think she's stupid yet well-educated. =)
Well that is very possable. I've seen PLENTY of people like that... THERE IS NO REASON TO THROW A MORTAR ROUND AGAINST A FUCKING TREE MISTER SMART GUY! >:(
 
QUeeN typhonblue said:
There isn't any room for Seripico amongst the relationships Farnese is currently developing either.

He's lost either way.

Maybe this way he can at least force Farnese to acknowlege some sort of emotion for him.
I thought this was the most succint and clear description of Serpico's situation by anyone so far. This is basically exactly what I'm thinking, but said better than I said it.
 

Mitsu_dunDee

Sparkles + will-o-the-wisp = BOUM
Well well well,
don't you think that Serpico just want to see if guts can control !?
His point is just to get the "beast" out of Guts............................

If serpico is defeated by Guts ===> 0K (He'll even surrender somehow )

I let the other case to your overwhelming and far fetched fantasies (there is a lot of people here , na ? ;D ).

Well, anyway if this point was dealt with earlier-on then it does not matter since
you really seem to enjoy arguing each others especially when the matter is not worth.... ::)

But this can't be helped, you really need some action, berserk chapters come soooooooo slooooowwwwwwwwwwlllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :-\
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
haha, it would be funny if Serpico could get Guts to change into the Beast and when he does, the local soldiers/militia/dance ball crowd comes down and see's him. That would be pretty messed up but exciting!
 

Begemot

STOP UNDRESSING ME WITH YOUR EYES!
Be funny if Guts used the hand cannon.

I get the feeling the fight is going to be interrupted by the Kushans.
 
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