Episode 301

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Ramen4ever said:
Maybe what's needed is an eventual explanation on why it's the collective darker feelings of human's that created the Idea of Evil. Why the darker side, why not the good side (well okay there would be no story otherwise).

Yeah, and does anyone really sit and think really hard, "Man I really need an explanation for how awesome the world is."?

Especially in a world like Berserks'.

Also, if people accepted the creatures from the realm of the dead or interstice if you prefer.. would a large scale acceptance or maybe just an understanding of those creatures diminish the fear and hate in the world? I mean look at what's happening now, the humans are kind of accepting the apostles. If they no longer fear them and they accept them.. wouldn't that reduce.. maybe just slightly.. the overall amount of darker negative feelings in the world? Or would a reduction even effect the Idea of Evil?
Considering that magic users have an understanding of how the world works.. I think it might actually be "knowledge" maybe about the truth of how the world works, that will determine how things end.

The Idea of Evil may have been created by man, but I'm pretty sure it's an entity of it's own at this point, free of man's influence.

Or maybe by revealing the apostles and the different monsters in the world.. Miura is setting up the humans to eventually unite and fight all the monsters in the world? I don't think that would effect the Idea though.

I'm sure Miura will work it all out nicely in the end though.

If it was humans vs monsters in a war, I'd hate to be on the human's side.
 
Deci said:
The Idea of Evil may have been created by man, but I'm pretty sure it's an entity of it's own at this point, free of man's influence.

Obeying the essence of humankind
I don't know if I'd call it entirely free. Though changing the essence of humankind isn't something that I think is really possible. The Idea of Evil provides reasons for peoples pain, sadness, life, death and things that transcend human knowledge. If people had more knowledge about such things, like Flora, whats reason would the Idea of Evil exist for?

And I produce those
As it is what I've been brought into existence for
I control fate

If people were able to control their own fates.. what purpose would the Idea of Evil serve? I guess what I'm trying to get at is what happens to something in the Ideal world if it loses it's purpose?
 
Ramen4ever said:
I don't think the Idea of Evil is something you can destroy with a sword. As long as human's exist, it exists.
Something I'm not too sure about ..but didn't Miura remove the Idea of Evil by removing the lost episode 83? Or at least all that remains is like two comments from a "mysterious voice" to Griffith.
I'm not too sure that the Idea of Evil will actually be confronted. The GH maybe, but the true "mastermind" behind it all is basically untouchable.

Gut's sword is more then a material, iron sword. It has been infused with loads of spiritual energy from slaying apostles and other otherworldly beings. So beyond just the pure physical force and entity of the Dragonslayer, there is now also the spiritual essence. So even if something can't be hurt by a metal blade, the spiritual energy within the blade can still cut and harm them.

And furthermore, this is more of a speculation or whatever from my side, I think that in the future mental strength will play a bigger role as far as directly having an influence on stuff. The spiritual realm and real world are flowing together and in the spiritual realm, peoples feelings and thoughts can become real. So, someone like Guts who has a very strong persona from everything he has been through, will become more and more powerfull under such conditions when he finally comes to terms with himself etc. The whole "mind over matter" thing. So even if the Dragonslayer was just a metal slab in itself, in Guts' hands it also powered by his spiritual power.
 
Shadax said:
Guts sword is more then a material, iron sword. It has been infused with loads of spiritual energy from slaying apostles and other otherworldly beings. So beyond just the pure physical force and entity of the Dragonslayer, there is now also the spiritual essence. So even if something can't be hurt by a metal blade, the spiritual energy within the blade can still cut and harm them.

If there's one theory I have serious doubts about .. its that Guts is going to personally take the Idea of Evil down with the DS.
 
Ramen4ever said:
If there's one theory I have serious doubts about .. its that Guts is going to personally take the Idea of Evil down with the DS.

Yeah, agree since that doesn't seem to fit with the whole direction everything is just going, just wanted to react to what you said about the dragonslayer.
 
Shadax said:
Yeah, agree since that doesn't seem to fit with the whole direction everything is just going, just wanted to react to what you said about the dragonslayer.

Well I never really had the dragonslayer in particular in mind when I posted that. Just a general term that the likelihood of the Idea of Evil being taken down be physical means is negligible. If there is one sword that may have a chance it would be Sk's Behelit-sword. Though I believe that if the Idea of Evil will somehow at the end of the series be dealt with. It would be something either magical or maybe a change on a global scale in the Berserk world. Or maybe all that will happen is the death of the GH and most of the apostles. Maybe the IoE will just be set back in whatever plans it had.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Episode 83 aside, we've only been given a brief glimpse of the Idea of Evil at the end of episode 82 and in the Shadow of Idea episodes. That being said, if the Idea of Evil is to eventually be defeated at the end of Berserk, I doubt we've encountered the force necessary to best it, if there is any. We know Skull Knight crafted the Yobimizu no Tsurugi in order to fight the God Hand, but I somehow doubt it has the power to stand against the Idea. Anyways, we're getting pretty far into the speculation side of things so we should probably stick to the most recent of events and the speculation of their outcome, versus the climax of the manga. :serpico:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I'm actually semi-serious here with the Merlin connection (or VERY serious if you judge by the amount of busywork I put into it =).

Although, as Wally says, it certainly wouldn't be as simple as Merlin (what is?), the groundwork for something similar is there within the discussion in volume 24, and even somewhat demonstrated in volume 25 with the Lady of the Depths.

From that basis in the series, and the next step taken in Merlin, we need only use our imaginations...

berserlin.jpg
 

Jarome

The Destroyer Of Worlds
^^ wow Griffith that was amazing but I guess we're in such a huge need of new Berserk content that the speculation is getting out of hand :p

Personally I believe the :idea: shall be destroyed by Griffith's repentance and by thus, giving the "happy ending" that Miura claimed he'd do... But something Merlin-like isn't impossible either.

But seriously Griffith, this is some incredible work! :griffnotevil:
 
Jarome said:
^^ wow Griffith that was amazing but I guess we're in such a huge need of new Berserk content that the speculation is getting out of hand :p

Personally I believe the :idea: shall be destroyed by Griffith's repentance and by thus, giving the "happy ending" that Miura claimed he'd do... But something Merlin-like isn't impossible either.

But seriously Griffith, this is some incredible work! :griffnotevil:

There is no repentance for Griffith, because there is no more humanity in him for him to repent. It just isn't there, which is demonstrated by the fact that he didn't waver in front of Guts.

There might be a happy ending, but it won't be for Griffith, IMO. :griff:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
yota821 said:
There is no repentance for Griffith, because there is no more humanity in him for him to repent. It just isn't there, which is demonstrated by the fact that he didn't waver in front of Guts.

You may be right, but we won't know for sure for a while. In the meantime, I don't think that can be said with any such certainty, or that we should get caught up in defining what can or cannot be when we honestly don't know. The events on the hill of swords were more contradictory than definitive, and in fact raised more questions than answers. Also, while Griffith's case is unique, Apostles supposedly sacrifice their humanity as well, yet look at past examples of final repentance or redemption, such as the Count and Rochine. Repentance and redemption has been a continuing theme running through the story from the beginning, with inhumans being no exception; so, considering the author's past writing choices and patterns, I don't think one can rule out the possibility for the story's most prominent and complex antagonist.
 
while Griffith's case is unique, Apostles supposedly sacrifice their humanity as well, yet look at past examples of final repentance or redemption, such as the Count and Rochine. Repentance and redemption has been a continuing theme running through the story from the beginning, with inhumans being no exception; so, considering the author's past writing choices and patterns, I don't think one can rule out the possibility for the story's most prominent and complex antagonist.


Exactly! Two-dimensional "villains" are so fucking boring, anyway, and the last thing I expect from either Berserk or Griffith is to be bored.
 
Griffith said:
You may be right, but we won't know for sure for a while. In the meantime, I don't think that can be said with any such certainty, or that we should get caught up in defining what can or cannot be when we honestly don't know. The events on the hill of swords were more contradictory than definitive, and in fact raised more questions than answers. Also, while Griffith's case is unique, Apostles supposedly sacrifice their humanity as well, yet look at past examples of final repentance or redemption, such as the Count and Rochine. Repentance and redemption has been a continuing theme running through the story from the beginning, with inhumans being no exception; so, considering the author's past writing choices and patterns, I don't think one can rule out the possibility for the story's most prominent and complex antagonist.

I guess, since Griffith still has someone else who is important to whom (Charlotte, although her importance can vary from just pure "usefullness" or genuine concern), but compared to many of the other apostles that have vanquished along the way (the Count and Rochine, for example) his sacrifice, IMO, was much more complete (the Count still had his daughter, and Rochine still had Jill).

They were 'imperfect' monsters, contrasted with Griffith's 'perfect' evil. But I guess we'll we won't find out until the very end (and who knows what curve balls :miura: will throw at us....
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
THE END.jpg
It's awesome as expected. The way you rotated some of the shots really made it seem SOMEWHAT genuine. Which is impressive given how familiar I am with the source material.

I do hope that picture effectively ridicules that theory enough that we won't hear from it ever again though :void:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
I do hope that picture effectively ridicules that theory enough that we won't hear from it ever again though :void:

That may be how you see it what with your blinders on maaaaan, but no way, I'm in "TILL THE END!" :badbone:

Seriously though, I wouldn't completely dismiss the theme in some form, obviously not as congruently as depicted, or so blunt, but it is a theme consistent with elements introduced first in 83 concerning the nature of the Idea and expanded to the nature of the universe in 24. The caveat being what could make humanity no longer yearn for their desired God? Still, I won't allow it to be ridiculed by conventional wisdom or narrow-minded Merlin prejudice! =)

Not in a World with Apostles and humans, living together, mass hysteria!
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
Seriously though, I wouldn't completely dismiss the theme in some form, obviously not as congruently as depicted, or so blunt, but it is a theme consistent with elements introduced first in 83 concerning the nature of the Idea and expanded to the nature of the universe in 24. The caveat being what could make humanity no longer yearn for their desired God? Still, I won't allow it to be ridiculed by conventional wisdom or narrow-minded Merlin prejudice! =)
The problem I have with it is this issue was specifically addressed by Schierke as soon as the concept was introduced in vol 24. She mocked Isidro for thinking along the same lines. :isidro: :schierke: Don't have the volume handy since I'm at work, but it's essentially: "It's not that simple." Once something comes into being, even if through thought or notion, it will exist in some form. The reverse isn't necessarily true.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
The problem I have with it is this issue was specifically addressed by Schierke as soon as the concept was introduced in vol 24. She mocked Isidro for thinking along the same lines. :isidro: :schierke: Don't have the volume handy since I'm at work, but it's essentially: "It's not that simple."

I don't even have to check, I think you hit that particular line on the head. But...

Walter said:
Once something comes into being, even if through thought or notion, it will exist in some form. The reverse isn't necessarily true.

... it isn't necessarily untrue either. What she specifically points to when debunking Isidro's simple plan is the subconscious. Now while people can't directly control their subconscious, that doesn't mean it can't change, or be changed. We've arguably already seen similar examples with the mass-dream about Griffith, and the concentrated desire of the people dying at Albion, and I'm obviously talking about a change on that drastic, macro level, scale of sum human consciousness.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
... it isn't necessarily untrue either. What she specifically points to when debunking Isidro's simple plan is the subconscious. Now while people can't directly control their subconscious, that doesn't mean it can't change, or be changed. We've arguably already seen similar examples with the mass-dream about Griffith, and the concentrated desire of the people dying at Albion, and I'm obviously talking about a change on that drastic, macro level, scale of sum human consciousness.
Well as long as we're still talking off-the-deep end, I do think the people of Midland will be fundamentally changed by the end of the series. Not talking specifics, but I just foresee them coming to their senses, so to speak, after this pact with demonkind goes awry. Whether that will result in the ouster of the God Hand's grip on the world remains to be seen. Maybe a human rebellion will coincide with a resistance of another kind in a _deeper_ layer of the world? :guts: :badbone:

Another thing regarding the changing power of the subconscious -- the bearer of those keys is The Idea of Evil. Unless Schierke can hack into that terminal and upload happy_thoughts.exe to all human ports, I don't see how the Idea of Evil could be undone in the same manner it maintains its rule.

That being said, all theories so far-reaching as this, my own included, are still fundamentally flawed because there's still so much we don't know about the Berserk universe and how it works. We're sparring with the blast shield down. All we can do is get shot over and over by that floating sphere and get heckled by Han Solo.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
Well as long as we're still talking off-the-deep end, I do think the people of Midland will be fundamentally changed by the end of the series. Not talking specifics, but I just foresee them coming to their senses, so to speak, after this pact with demonkind goes awry. Whether that will result in the ouster of the God Hand's grip on the world remains to be seen. Maybe a human rebellion will coincide with a resistance of another kind in a _deeper_ layer of the world? :guts: :badbone:

Yeeeah, now we're talking! I'm really not thinking much on details beyond that same feeling. This is just a way it could manifest itself.

Walter said:
Another thing regarding the changing power of the subconscious -- the bearer of those keys is The Idea of Evil. Unless Schierke can hack into that terminal and upload happy_thoughts.exe to all human ports, I don't see how the Idea of Evil could be undone in the same manner it maintains its rule.

I'd say because it's a desired rule, humanity is surrendering that control. Like how the American people are the President's boss, they're voting for Idea every term. =)

Walter said:
That being said, all theories so far-reaching as this, my own included, are still fundamentally flawed because there's still so much we don't know about the Berserk universe and how it works. We're sparring with the blast shield down. All we can do is get shot over and over by that floating sphere and get heckled by Han Solo.

I don't think there's been an unflawed one yet, and I'm getting more liberal on my allowances every day, I'd rather be way out there than bottled up. I mean, if you'd told us about witches, trolls, and elementals back around volume 23, we'd have balked. Actually, we did. =)

That's why I think it's okay to take a some quantum leaps, as long as it's still sensible and I can imagine Miura doing it well.

yota821 said:
I guess, since Griffith still has someone else who is important to whom (Charlotte, although her importance can vary from just pure "usefullness" or genuine concern),

I also think his relationship with Guts and Casca is far from settled.

yota821 said:
but compared to many of the other apostles that have vanquished along the way (the Count and Rochine, for example) his sacrifice, IMO, was much more complete (the Count still had his daughter, and Rochine still had Jill). They were 'imperfect' monsters, contrasted with Griffith's 'perfect' evil.

On the contrary, Griffith's sacrifice is the only one we know of that's technically "incomplete", and he's by no means a perfect monster with that vessel of his. Furthermore, Griffith doesn't have the benefit of his sacrifices being dead and gone. The Count's wife was dead. So were Rochine's parents. If they had regrets, there was no outlet for them. There was no turning back... no choice or changing your mind, and that's how it's supposed to be. But Guts and Casca are still alive, and I wonder if that's Griffith's saving grace.

yota821 said:
But I guess we'll we won't find out until the very end (and who knows what curve balls :miura: will throw at us....

That we'll always agree on. :guts:
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Walter said:
Another thing regarding the changing power of the subconscious -- the bearer of those keys is The Idea of Evil. Unless Schierke can hack into that terminal and upload happy_thoughts.exe to all human ports, I don't see how the Idea of Evil could be undone in the same manner it maintains its rule.

My friend and I were talking about this and although it would be impossible to get rid of the Idea of Evil/Evil out of everyones hearts it would be much more plausible to make him less in control of things.

If the Idea of Evil/God is comprised of all the negative feelings and the "Why" for the reason for all the suffering in the world, then the quicker that the people understand and realize that its because of themselves that are causing this suffering the sooner that the Idea of Evil loses it's power.

So instead of blaiming god for all their hardships they should be realizing that them as Humans are causing it.

Hope that makes sense. :judo:
 

Th3Branded0ne

I'll be back.
SaiyajinNoOuji said:
My friend and I were talking about this and although it would be impossible to get rid of the Idea of Evil/Evil out of everyones hearts it would be much more plausible to make him less in control of things.

If the Idea of Evil/God is comprised of all the negative feelings and the "Why" for the reason for all the suffering in the world, then the quicker that the people understand and realize that its because of themselves that are causing this suffering the sooner that the Idea of Evil loses it's power.

So instead of blaming god for all their hardships they should be realizing that them as Humans are causing it.

Hope that makes sense. :judo:


Well, is a good concept, but I doubt "everyone " is going to understand and realize they are causing the suffering. In the berserk world, we see some people suffer because they are poor and have to obey to nobles and kings. So they feel is not fair. Also, nobles fight each other for power and popularity among the peasants. So all this negative feelings build up inside the people and through time made what we know as the Idea of Evil. I may be somewhat mistaken on this in many of parts. But I do know that I think it would be a long shot for everyone realize they are the ones causing the suffering.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Well its that/something similar or the alternative which would be Gut's navigating through the Idea of Evil like Luke went through the first Deathstar and blows it up from the inside as he shoots out of it just in time in his escape! :ganishka:

I know that everyone wont go for it much like our present real world but if they are to learn about alternatives... My case being when Gut's and Co went to the town of Enoch to clear out the trolls. By the end of that area the Priest had learned from Shierke that there used to be an old praying ground for one of the Elementals there. That guy was pretty gung-ho about God and what not but by the end of it not as much.
 
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