Episode 344

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Ken said:
when we do get a Gaiseric flashback, how long do you guys think it will be?
It could go from only a few pages to, at most, a few episodes.

Feeblecursedone said:
So if Void was the first scholar/sorcerer who experimented with souls, particulary evil ones, perhaps he's the one who came up with the sacrifical brand and beherits themselves. Maybe beherits are made from dead human souls as well, particulary ones filled with dark emotions? Maybe the reason why Beherits react the way they do when the time is right and ascension to apostlehood/godhandhood is about to begin because of the very material that is made of, entrapped souls reacting to a person's soul in distress, which then opens up a portal to God Hand, because of that human connection and connection to IOE.
We know how beherits are made and where they come from. It is shown to us when Griffith's soul descends into the Abyss in volume 13, where they rise up as droplets of ideas towards the "surface". It's further explained by Flora in volume 24, when she tells Guts that the beherits are sent to the corporeal world by a "higher being" (the Idea of Evil) and that it is It who controls them. Therefore, no man can "activate" them, for it is their true master who decides when and where they must be used. That aside, the idea that the Brand itself may have been Void's creation has indeed crossed my mind.

On a side note, I was telling Walter yesterday that it would be cool to see Miura reinterpret episode 83 in the future, during Void's flashback. We could see his descent to the Abyss, his meeting with God and get some juicy details. It'd end like this:

"What do you desire, Albion?"
- Knowledge

Feeblecursedone said:
If Void was the first God Hand member, who's the angel?
Like I said in my post, that tale is quite obviously unreliable. There doesn't need to be an angel. Maybe his own transformation made him pass as one for example.

Wenliinvictus said:
the Eclipse ceremony world was forged out of souls, apostles are forged out of souls
We don't know how the location the Eclipse ceremony took place in was created, but I doubt it was "forged". And apostles aren't "forged" either, they're humans whose souls are infused with evil power.
 

Feeblecursedone

"This hammer has broken Daemons on my anvil, Elf.
We know how beherits are made and where they come from. It is shown to us when Griffith's soul descends into the Abyss in volume 13, where they rise up as droplets of ideas towards the "surface". It's further explained by Flora in volume 24, when she tells Guts that the beherits are sent to the corporeal world by a "higher being" (the Idea of Evil) and that it is It who controls them. Therefore, no man can "activate" them, for it is their true master who decides when and where they must be used. That aside, the idea that the Brand itself may have been Void's creation has indeed crossed my mind.
Ah alright. Been a while since i've re-read the manga. Thanks for explanation. You too Wenlinvictus.



Or it could be that Griffith is unaware of their existence
I find that unlikely. God hand members can see the future and as such are probably aware of most of the things going on in the world. Griffith's attack on spiritual trees all over the world is a proof of that. Its not like he needs a map.

apostles are forged out of souls
I think you meant apostle's soul undergoes a change during an ascension to apostlehood, as Void said something like " your thoughts will be filled with evil " so in an essence, their soul is changed and warped as much as from the ritual as from the evil emotions that led them to reject their humanity.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Feeblecursedone said:
God hand members can see the future and as such are probably aware of most of the things going on in the world.
The God Hand is guided by a higher authority, with higher knowledge, capabilities and goals. Each member's own exact attributes and powers are unknown to us.

Feeblecursedone said:
Void said something like " your thoughts will be filled with evil "
It's Conrad who says "A fissure will open in your heart into which evil will surge."
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
When Ged mentioned that Falcon of Light aka Griffith "devastated the spirit wood", Guts' reaction seemed quite out of character.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Feeblecursedone said:
God hand members can see the future
Slan says otherwise at the end of the Eclipse. They can foresee some things, but not all. They probably are exposed to a vast amount of knowledge as a result of being able to tap into the collective consciousness of mankind, thus they have a deep understanding of things. But “see the future” in the way that you mean here just isn't the case.

I actually really appreciate the specific place Miura has carved for the God Hand — extremely powerful, but not omnipotent; extremely knowledgable, but not omniscient. More powerful than almost anything, but at the end of they day, they aren't gods.

TricksieThiefsie said:
When Ged mentioned that Falcon of Light aka Griffith "devastated the spirit wood", Guts' reaction seemed quite out of character.
Not sure what you mean. Any mention of Griffith tends to get a rise out of Guts. Connecting his personal rival with this massive change in the world is also a big deal for him.
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
Not sure what you mean. Any mention of Griffith tends to get a rise out of Guts.
I don't know, he was as much surprised as Schierke, maybe even more. Last time he made such an expression was when he saw Griffith on Hill of Swords i think. All of this is even weirder when you see him few moments before - he is delighted that Casca might get healed (which is his main quest now). It was too sudden and too dramatic.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
TricksieThiefsie said:
I don't know, he was as much surprised as Schierke, maybe even more. Last time he made such an expression was when he saw Griffith on Hill of Swords i think. All of this is even weirder when you see him few moments before - he is delighted that Casca might get healed (which is his main quest now). It was too sudden and too dramatic.
Based on both of these examples, it doesn't seem to me like you know Guts very well, or at least are forgetting dozens of examples of Guts being surprised. Examine his surprised reaction when he saw the flood in Enoch ("So this is magic!"), or his face after Skull Knight mentioned that it might be possible for Casca to be healed back in Vol 28.

Here, he smiled at the confirmation of the possibility SK had offered all that time ago. That's all. Was a simple, emotional reaction from Guts after his long journey. What's weird about that exactly...?
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
Walter said:
Based on both of these examples, it doesn't seem to me like you know Guts very well, or at least are forgetting dozens of examples of Guts being surprised. Examine his surprised reaction when he saw the flood in Enoch ("So this is magic!"), or his face after Skull Knight mentioned that it might be possible for Casca to be healed back in Vol 28.

Here, he smiled at the confirmation of the possibility SK had offered all that time ago. That's all. Was a simple, emotional reaction from Guts after his long journey. What's not to like...?
I am talking about his reaction after hearing about Griffith's attack. He wouldn't be THAT much surprised and concerned, especially when he is not a magic user. Even especially when his quest is to get Casca healed.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
TricksieThiefsie said:
I am talking about his reaction after hearing about Griffith's attack. He wouldn't be THAT much surprised and concerned, especially when he is not a magic user. Even especially when his quest is to get Casca healed.
I don't see what the big deal is. Yes, Guts is surprised to hear that the big astral event they witnessed was Griffith's doing. That seems 100% normal to me, and I don't see why not being a magic user should change anything in that regard. Finally, the fact his priority is Casca doesn't mean he has completely forgotten about Griffith or has no interest in his whereabouts. That seems beyond obvious.
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
I don't see what the big deal is. Yes, Guts is surprised to hear that the big astral event they witnessed was Griffith's doing. That seems 100% normal to me, and I don't see why not being a magic user should change in that regard. Finally, the fact his priority is Casca doesn't mean he has completely forgotten about Griffith or has no interest in his whereabouts. That seems beyond obvious.
I always thought that Guts gave up on his revenge. He still hates Griffith, yes, but from what I understand he chose Casca over him. He felt the guilt of leaving her for chasing demons and now he has different priorities. It doesn't make sense for him to go for Griffith again just like that, because that would be the same mistake he did a long time ago. Let's assume that Casca is completely sane and able to fight - do we actually believe that he would take her on his revenge path just to do the same thing again?

Something will happen in Elfhelm and that will decide why and how Guts is going for his revenge again.
 
TricksieThiefsie said:
I always thought that Guts gave up on his revenge. He still hates Griffith, yes, but from what I understand he chose Casca over him. He felt the guilt of leaving her for chasing demons and now he has different priorities. It doesn't make sense for him to go for Griffith again just like that, because that would be the same mistake he did a long time ago. Let's assume that Casca is completely sane and able to fight - do we actually believe that he would take her on his revenge path just to do the same thing again?

Something will happen in Elfhelm and that will decide why and how Guts is going for his revenge again.
Do you actually think that as soon as he stops pursuing revenge, Griffith means nothing to Guts? What?
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
Do you actually think that as soon as he stops pursuing revenge, Griffith means nothing to Guts? What?
As I said, he still hates him and still wants him dead, but he won't go the same path he did years ago. The God Hand are extremely powerful and he won't get to them just by killing some demons. Some major plot change will happen soon.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
TricksieThiefsie said:
I always thought that Guts gave up on his revenge. He still hates Griffith, yes, but from what I understand he chose Casca over him. He felt the guilt of leaving her for chasing demons and now he has different priorities. It doesn't make sense for him to go for Griffith again just like that, because that would be the same mistake he did a long time ago. Let's assume that Casca is completely sane and able to fight - do we actually believe that he would take her on his revenge path just to do the same thing again?
Didn't we have that conversation like two days ago? Yes, Guts has chosen to put Casca's well-being above everything else in his life. He took that decision in volume 17, and has been putting her first ever since. I don't see why that should prevent him from being surprised to hear that Griffith was the cause of a world-shaking event. But putting that aside, since that's not really your point. Yes, I believe that Guts will embark on a journey to find Griffith in the future, and that both Casca and his friends will accompany him. Like I told you the other day, it doesn't even have to strictly motivated by revenge. Other factors like the fate of their son as well as that of the world may come into play.

TricksieThiefsie said:
Something will happen in Elfhelm and that will decide why and how Guts is going for his revenge again.
You don't say. :schierke: This is beyond obvious and most of us have been taking that for granted for over a decade.
 
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TricksieThiefsie

Guest
To be honest this is my mistake for starting this discussion. We can't tell at all what is going to happen, we can't tell what Guts is going to hear from Ged, we can't tell what is going to happen with Casca. As much as I love reading theories, it's impossible to think about endgame of this manga now. It's all cool but at the same time very frustrating that Miura hasn't told anything major about The God Hand since worlds merging yet. We still don't know much about Griffith. Makes me worried that we may get a rushed ending because of such unbalanced lore share.

We have to wait rather than talk too much. I'm out till 345 :daiba:
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
TricksieThiefsie said:
To be honest this is my mistake for starting this discussion. We can't tell at all what is going to happen, we can't tell what Guts is going to hear from Ged, we can't tell what is going to happen with Casca. As much as I love reading theories, it's impossible to think about endgame of this manga now.
Well that depends. I mean I went pretty far out speculating about future events myself in this thread in the last 24 hours. It's just that everything you just said is basically what we've always expected. So while I think we all agree about it, there's not much else to say.

TricksieThiefsie said:
It's all cool but at the same time very frustrating that Miura hasn't told anything major about The God Hand since worlds merging yet. We still don't know much about Griffith. Makes me worried that we may get a rushed ending because of such unbalanced lore share.
Patience, it will come. And I'm sure it'll be glorious, too. :guts:
 

Feeblecursedone

"This hammer has broken Daemons on my anvil, Elf.
A sudden thought. What if Guts' next upgrade comes directly from the dwarves? Since they made the armour, it would seem logical for them to thinker with it. Maybe there are some on Skellig but in a further part of the island and the party will have to go parlay with them? Maybe they can enchant it with some magical runes? Both the armour and dragonslayer?

Yeah i said that already but I desperately want to meet them.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Feeblecursedone said:
A sudden thought. What if Guts' next upgrade comes directly from the dwarves? Since they made the armour, it would seem logical for them to thinker with it. Maybe there are some on Skellig but in a further part of the island and the party will have to go parlay with them? Maybe they can enchant it with some magical runes? Both the armour and dragonslayer?
I think it's possible the actual dwarves who made the armor may be in Elfhelm, and they would obviously be in a position to help out with it. It's something we've already speculated about in the past. It remains to be seen what could be done with it though. I don't believe its negative properties will go away, and I also don't believe it'll become "more powerful", since it works by removing the body's natural limits. Those two aspects (benefits and dangers) are rolled up in a single package that can't be extricated. So whatever they do, it'd have to be subtle, akin to the talisman Flora carved on its chestplate.

Regarding the Dragon Slayer, I'm not too sure about runes, but they could always reforge it. It hasn't seen a refresh since volume 17 after all, and who else would be better fit to take care of Godot's masterpiece but legendary artisans?
 

Feeblecursedone

"This hammer has broken Daemons on my anvil, Elf.
Regarding the Dragon Slayer, I'm not too sure about runes, but they could always reforge it. It hasn't seen a refresh since volume 17 after all, and who else would be better fit to take care of Godot's masterpiece but legendary artisans?
Lightning Dragonslayer + 15! Invokes a thunderclap on every fifth strike <.<

Imagine Dragonslayer getting a power of elements.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Feeblecursedone said:
Lightning Dragonslayer + 15! Invokes a thunderclap on every fifth strike <.<

Imagine Dragonslayer getting a power of elements.
Haha, I know you like the Souls series, but nah. This isn't a video game. :iva:

This discussion already took place in volume 24 in a way, when Schierke offered Guts the magical axe. He of course refused it, and then she noticed that the Dragon Slayer already has some magical properties of its own, due to the thousands of evil spirits Guts has slain with it. That's how he could banish Slan from the Qliphoth and wound Ganishka in Vritannis. I think if anything it's more likely that these properties will be honed.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Aazealh said:
who else would be better fit to take care of Godot's masterpiece but legendary artisans?
I know who! :rickert: :carcus:

But joke aside, it'd be nice to have a reforge of the sword by them or someone with the skills to do it.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
jackson_hurley said:
I know who! :rickert: :carcus:

But joke aside, it'd be nice to have a reforge of the sword by them or someone with the skills to do it.
Well if it's not the dwarves then there's no doubt it'll be Rickert.

Anyway, I was thinking yesterday about how Flora encouraged Schierke to join Guts back in volume 24, and how it makes even more sense in retrospect, since she knew she was dying and that Guts was going to Skellig. Sending her pupil there sounds like the best possible thing she could have done.

I was also thinking about Schierke's place in this new village, and I got this idea that Schierke might end up feeling inadequate compared to Molda and the others. That could lead to her going for a walk by herself. Isidro would then find her or vice versa, and he could comfort and encourage her, since he can relate. Would tell her how she made him feel useless and remind her of all the great things she's done. I think that'd be a great way to push their relationship to the next level. :casca:

Also I expect elves in Elfhelm to compliment Puck on finding himself a bride, which should annoy Ivalera to no end. :iva:
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Aazealh said:
Also I expect elves in Elfhelm to compliment Puck on finding himself a bride, which should annoy Ivalera to no end. :iva:
This should be very amusing if it happens, their interaction are always ridiculously funny.

I also like your thought about Schierke. it could be a very nice way to develop their relationship indeed. So much potential coming our way.
 

Feeblecursedone

"This hammer has broken Daemons on my anvil, Elf.
I was also thinking about Schierke's place in this new village, and I got this idea that Schierke might end up feeling inadequate compared to Molda and the others. That could lead to her going for a walk by herself. Isidro would then find her or vice versa, and he could comfort and encourage her, since he can relate. Would tell her how she made him feel useless and remind her of all the great things she's done. I think that'd be a great way to push their relationship to the next level.
Molda seems to be a playful type so i can see her teasing Schierke about Isidro.

Edit: I was also thinking about those old men trees. Could these be deceased magicians who's souls were put into trees in order to avoid being pulled into vortex of souls?
 
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