Episode 364

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
he is the perfect being

I would not say Femto is a "perfect being". Probably not even from the point of view of Griffith when he was human.

he is actually a pure being, resembling that of elves, he is to put it simply a child.

It's a mistake to equate the fact his Od is similar to elves to him merely being a child. Like Danan says, he's not an ordinary boy.

it actually makes me wonder about episode 358 because in that episode he says something like" this night.. yet again" and he transforms, maybe there could be a double meaning there, he's saying again i will fall into a deep dream and become him again, and maybe he is thinking yet again i will feel those warm feelings.

Why would Femto care to feel the emotions of the boy? That's contrary to how you describe him yourself. Besides, when he's talking about the warmth he had missed, he's referring to the boy, not himself. I mean, even as a human, Griffith didn't exactly care to "be embraced". And he thinks those thoughts as Charlotte lays in his bed, too.

At the hill of swords Griffith wanted to confirm to himself if he still feels something towards Guts, and he was right he didnt feel anything, but in that moment we also get the reveal of the boy and him sharing the body, i feel this wasn't a coincidence having these moments so close, he reaffirmed his belief that his heart was indeed frozen, but the boy had yet to really take over his body yet, i think it was foreshadowing something that the boy would maybe thaw out his frozen heart little by little.

Actually you're missing the point of that scene. At that time, Griffith feels his heart beating as the boy sees his father fight Zodd. That's when he realizes the boy still exists within him, and that he feels for his parents. Then there's the even more shocking scene of him saving Casca, again due to the boy. That's actually what prompts him to leave. So it's never been about Griffith and always about the boy. That's why this scene at the end of episode 364 isn't as revolutionary as some people think. It's visually striking and very powerful as a result, but the new information it reveals (that Griffith feels the emotions of the boy for a fleeting moment as he takes back the body) isn't groundbreaking.

More importantly, I must point out that you're completely overlooking the cruelty of Femto towards the boy in that scene. Imagine what the kid must feel like as he's suffocated into the recesses of his mind while Femto reasserts power. That's his tears you see on Griffith's face. His despair. And this is really what Griffith's comment is all about: that all of the boy's feelings disappear immediately when he gets back in control. He's basically saying that he himself is unaffected by them, save for that one streak of tears. This is meant to emphasize the tragedy of this situation for Guts and Casca's son, not to fuel fantasies about Femto becoming a nice person.

to get back to the final episode i know those are not Griffiths feelings but Griffith for a fleeting moment during all the times the boy has transformed is feeling emotions from that child, he shares his body with a pure heart, ive always thought this could lead to some amazing things in Griffiths final moments this can be the key to him finally regaining a semblance of himself again in the end, as Griffith he realises what he has done and what his dream and his ambitions has lead to, this is one way for Griffith to have an emotional death

I can guarantee you this would never happen. The dramatic tension regarding Griffith right now is all about the boy. Can the boy survive the destruction of Femto? That's emotional. Just imagine the impossible dilemma this would have provided for Guts and Casca. Could Guts' revenge justify the death of his own son? In a way, it's the point of having them cohabit in that body. It makes the prospect of Griffith's death extremely riveting because we don't know what would happen to the kid, and wouldn't until the very end.

this is one way for Griffith to have an emotional death, i see in this moment a single tear of blood in Guts dead eye, i dont think guts will actually be emotional in that moment but his eye will cry blood, a final tear of blood for his friend which i would think would be really fitting because it resembles both emotion and pain. many people say no Griffith will remain cold and evil until the end and that he will remain a monster, Griffith has done horrible things, and yes he probably doesnt deserve to be redeemed that's not what i really want, but i want Griffith for one moment, a fleeting moment if you will were he remembers his old feelings and cries as griffith not as the boy.

Honestly I don't know what to tell you. If you think both Guts and Femto will cry of sadness when the latter dies, then you're hopelessly deluded. Griffith is not Guts' friend. He's his sworn enemy, and outside of flashbacks Guts has spent the entire series hating him. As for Femto, he absolutely is remorseless and beyond redemption. To think he would feel regret for what he did at the end... Not only does it not fit his character, but it's been shown to be an impossibility in the manga. As a human being, Griffith was a nuanced character with redeeming traits. But that man ceased to be during the Eclipse. His last act was an unforgivable, unredeemable offering of his comrades as sacrifices so he could be reborn as Femto. And as Femto, a deeply evil being, he is not prone to sentimentality over the people he's sacrificed.

And, you know, even as a man, Griffith's pride did not allow him to become "lesser", to accept a simple life with his dream forgotten. He did not yield. So for him to cry as he lay dying at Guts' feet? What a monumental humiliation that would be, a travesty of his character. One last thing: Griffith's death could be emotional for the reader without him weeping and telling Guts he's sorry. Just like the two of them could have a meaningful last exchange that doesn't require Femto to somehow becoming remorseful and sad.
 

C@psella

they/she
Hi all! Been lurking for a while after being introduced to the manga a few years ago by my current partner. I'd listened to the newer podcast eps before Muira's Muira's passing but decided to start from the beginning after the release of 364. I'm happy to say I've finally caught up to where you are at in the re-read (like Isidiro chasing after Guts!) and will be looking forward to new podcast eps on that series.

I listened to the podcast ep for episode 364 for the second time last week (first time when 364 came out) and I keep coming back to something @Gobolatula said about how the boy climbing onto Guts' back reminded him of when Schierke had done so and gotten sucked into the armor with Guts. Additionally, the boy has now climbed up Guts' cloak in a similar fashion multiple times, putting him in proximity of the opening to the armor.

We know the boy has astrally projected himself inside the armor but what would happen if he were to get sucked into it physically? Would Femto and the boy be separated into their astral forms? Is there a way to transfer the boy & Guts back to the physical realm and trap Femto's spirit in the armor which could them be destroyed?
. It could be as simple as wanting to play with his dad. Climbing on his back or getting inside his breastplate didn't serve a particular purpose that we know of.
Yes, the boys actions could stem primarily from his fondness for Guts but that could be what keeps bringing him to the armor and even leads him to be pulled inside (voluntarily or not) on, but as we know, repeated actions in Berserk often point in singular direction which is what makes it hard to think there's not more to the boy's relationship with the armor.

Curious how I might be wrong tho, or if this has come up in prior discussions.:shrug:
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Hi C@psella, glad you're enjoying the podcast! Let me try to answer your points/questions.

Additionally, the boy has now climbed up Guts' cloak in a similar fashion multiple times, putting him in proximity of the opening to the armor.

He's climbed on his dad's back a couple of times. Both times he clearly has an interest in his dad specifically and not the armor itself. I'm not sure what you mean about "the opening of the armor". It's an armor: it's got holes for various body parts but it's not like you can "enter" it spiritually in that manner. When Schierke goes into it, she does so with her astral body and she doesn't need to go through a specific "entrance".

We know the boy has astrally projected himself inside the armor

He has not done that. He went up to it and "shocked" it both times. You can actually see that he's outside of it both times. What he does is quite different from the techniques Schierke uses.

but what would happen if he were to get sucked into it physically? Would Femto and the boy be separated into their astral forms? Is there a way to transfer the boy & Guts back to the physical realm and trap Femto's spirit in the armor which could them be destroyed?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. When Schierke goes into the armor, it's with her astral body (body of light), not her corporeal body. And when the boy interacts with the armor to help his father regain control, he uses his body of light as well. Now, we do see the boy physically get into the chest piece in episode 364, but he's just playing with his dad and not trying to activate it or anything. If you want to look at a possible subtext, it could be that he's trying to take it away from him because he understands it's dangerous, but even that is very speculative given the ensuing scene where they just play together doing a pretend sword fight. Basically what I said in the sentence you quoted.

As for Femto getting separated from the body, I'm not sure how that would work exactly. Femto is extremely powerful and it's very unlikely the Berserk's armor could overwhelm him. But beyond that, it's just not really how it works. I don't see how it could separate the two of them or anything of the sort.

Yes, the boys actions could stem primarily from his fondness for Guts but that could be what keeps bringing him to the armor and even leads him to be pulled inside (voluntarily or not) on, but as we know, repeated actions in Berserk often point in singular direction which is what makes it hard to think there's not more to the boy's relationship with the armor.

I'd say it's beyond "fondness". He loves his dad. Every interaction he's had with the armor was because his dad was wearing it. Note that he was interacting with Guts long before the armor came into play, and nothing hints that he has a personal goal relating specifically to that item, separate from his dad. Also, just as a reminder: he's a young boy. He's a very special boy, that's for sure, but he's still just a little kid. I don't think he has some secret plan to get rid of Femto.
 

C@psella

they/she
Salut @Aazealh & merci beaucoup for the reply (corrections) to the post!

I reviewed some of the panels again where a lot of the groundwork for this idea is laid and am planning to put together a more in-depth post on my theory because some approximation of this armor sucking souls idea is going to be my head cannon until I'm definitively convinced otherwise by the text and since Berserk is over you guys are going to be stuck with me! :ganishka:

Without going into it too much now, I do think the role of the armor in the separation/defeat of Femto is a piece of the pie and not the whole shebang and I do think it pairs nicely with what I saw you mentioned about Farnese and Schierke doing a ritual as a part of the separation of the boy and Femto. Something is tickling in the back of my mind about the inscription Flora did in the armor creating a boundary of sorts that kept Guts' from being destroyed by the armor as being relevant as well. And SK's soul also bound in armor.

I do want to respond to a few of your comments now tho:
I'm not sure what you mean about "the opening of the armor". It's an armor: it's got holes for various body parts but it's not like you can "enter" it spiritually in that manner. When Schierke goes into it, she does so with her astral body and she doesn't need to go through a specific "entrance".
What I meant here was the opening where Schierke was pulled into it but that was incorrect recollection as you noted. When she is pulled into the armor involuntarily when she is on his back before the fight against Daiba and yes, the armor has definitively closed but her body of light is pulled in involuntarily (in part because of her physical proximity to the armor maybe?)

Which leads to...

As for Femto getting separated from the body, I'm not sure how that would work exactly. Femto is extremely powerful and it's very unlikely the Berserk's armor could overwhelm him. But beyond that, it's just not really how it works. I don't see how it could separate the two of them or anything of the sort.

Fair point. It's unlikely the Berserk's armor could overwhelm him by itself. There is definitely a missing link in this theory but all we've got is time now so I'm going to try to find it while re-reading the text. With Muira Miura.

Also, just as a reminder: he's a young boy. He's a very special boy, that's for sure, but he's still just a little kid. I don't think he has some secret plan to get rid of Femto.
Again, fair point and well taken, but did have me curious how conscious MB is of the situation with his very mean babysitter? Because being able to physically manipulate their body while not in control with feelings of concern for safety as MB did with Casca when the rocks fell is doing not nothing obviously.

I'll leave it there for now but on a closing thought: I'm looking forward to more about what you folks have to say on the podcast about the parts of the story with interactions between Guts & Schierke/MB/Berserk's armor because I think the part you mentioned about how what the MB and Schierke are doing something different is really interesting as well and could also play a part in the final resolve.

:beast:
 
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Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I reviewed some of the panels again where a lot of the groundwork for this idea is laid and am planning to put together a more in-depth post on my theory because some approximation of this armor sucking souls idea is going to be my head cannon until I'm definitively convinced otherwise by the text and since Berserk is over you guys are going to be stuck with me! :ganishka:

That's how it always is: people never want to let go of their wacky ideas. :slan:
Also, "sucking souls" isn't really what's happening, it's Schierke entering the armor in her astral body.

Without going into it too much now, I do think the role of the armor in the separation/defeat of Femto is a piece of the pie and not the whole shebang and I do think it pairs nicely with what I saw you mentioned about Farnese and Schierke doing a ritual as a part of the separation of the boy and Femto.

Just to be completely clear: I'm 100% certain the Berserk's armor would not be used to split the boy and Femto apart. That is not what it is designed to do and nothing indicates it even has that ability. It's also not what its role is in the series. It's a powerful item that acts as a double-edged sword: it makes Guts more formidable in battle while endangering him and his friends in both the short and long term. Honestly, to me there's no way that the final battle in the series would be about trying to trap Femto in Guts' armor.

Something is tickling in the back of my mind about the inscription Flora did in the armor creating a boundary of sorts that kept Guts' from being destroyed by the armor as being relevant as well. And SK's soul also bound in armor.

In what way would it be relevant? As for the Skull Knight's condition, it's another thing altogether. He died wearing the Berserk's armor, and then his soul was encased in a different magical armor (the one he's currently wearing) so that he could subsist in the corporeal world.

What I meant here was the opening where Schierke was pulled into it but that was incorrect recollection as you noted. When she is pulled into the armor involuntarily when she is on his back before the fight against Daiba and yes, the armor has definitively closed but her body of light is pulled in involuntarily (in part because of her physical proximity to the armor maybe?)

The first time, on the docks in Vritannis, yes she is taken in involuntarily. Afterwards she does it on purpose on Isma's island. It happens because she holds on to the armor as it activates. Presumably the fact she's a witch and can easily leave her corporeal body facilitates it. She may also have been attempting something that made it possible. The point being that it's not at all sure someone else could achieve the same thing. It's worth noting that Schierke also enters the armor a different way twice, simply by "flying" into it with her astral body. First during the battle at Flora's mansion, second on the beach. She tries it again on the solitary island, but by that time the armor's Od has become too strong and she's repelled.

With Muira.

It's Miura. Please get it right.

Again, fair point and well taken, but did have me curious how conscious MB is of the situation with his very mean babysitter?

Well he's very aware of his situation, as evidenced by the ending of episode 364, where he cries a single streak of tears as Femto overtakes him and regains control. Griffith even describes the boy's feelings: desolation. In a sense the boy is held hostage.

I'll leave it there for now but on a closing thought: I'm looking forward to more about what you folks have to say on the podcast about the parts of the story with interactions between Guts & Schierke/MB/Berserk's armor because I think the part you mentioned about how what the MB and Schierke are doing something different is really interesting as well and could also play a part in the final resolve.

Sure, it's all very interesting regardless of potential future developments.
 
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