Episode 372

[Walter]

Kind of like a CEO stepping down and a new one taking the rains. Promising everything to be as good as before, to preserve the image of Miura and to check all of the marketing B**S** boxes in their statements, but in the end all they are thinking about is making as much profit as possible for as long as possible.

A corporation will naturally outlive its creator. But with a story written and drawn by one person, there's no expectation that the series must continue after their death. So what Studio Gaga did by mandating it to continue to a previously discussed conclusion is both admirable and reckless. And while I’m sure it’s nice that Miura’s assistants get to keep their jobs, I don't think the continuation is exclusively about profit for the people who are working on it. For Hakusensha (the publisher)? Sure, of course. Easy decision to make, right? But for Mori, I do believe it's very personal for him; I do think he's trying to do right by his friend. I just think he made the wrong decision.

Are we taking about previous intentions of Griffith, not Femto, here? That's a doubt I always have(not just with the continuation) because we know that Femto doesn't have any human emotions on him, Griffith humans intentions was just a causality parallel to his future God Hands "role"(if that's a thing) or Femto just still want to finish his later human intentions (i know that's surely not the case, but is something that always comes in my mind) and that's a signal of some weakness to exploit, apparently he doesn't have any weakness besides the obvious Moonlight Boy.

He meant what Griffith said in Ep 358, when he laid out the plan for the "second empire." It's not about emotions. Whatever human Griffith wanted is synonymous with what Femto wanted and is in the cards for the God Hand's ultimate plans. That's how causality works.

Just sharing my thoughts here because if Mori plans to finish Berserk with 4 episodes a year, and in less than five years (just hypothetically) them that's a thing that he have to explicit know Miura's intentions for us to have an end for the story.

The new team did 7 episodes in 2022.

 

[Aazealh]

I feel like the true fans interest will fade away in time as they await for the eventual release of the "Miura's Berserk ending" bullet point list.

That's pretty much what we're doing already, except the bullet points are released episodically.

that's a thing that he have to explicit know Miura's intentions for us to have an end for the story..

To add to what Walter explained, I think the logical expectation is that Griffith will have conquered the entire continent, or will be well on his way to doing so, by the time the series end. Most of it will have occurred offscreen, however. For a reason we don't fully understand yet, the God Hand's masterplan relies on reproducing the conditions that existed during Gaizeric's reign. At that time, Gaizeric and his allies managed to thwart Void's objectives somehow, even though it came at great cost. So now they're doing it in a way they fully control, with one of their own as the emperor-to-be, and it's the culmination of a thousand-years-long plan. But it will fail because of Guts & Casca's son. A fitting karmic retribution for Femto's sins during the Eclipse. One might called it causality.

You are right, it's just a expectation that is hard to not have. I think not talking about it is the better thing now.

Well I mean, it's up to you, but it's always going to come down to the same conclusion.

But we had to agree that that Zodd is special to a "normal" Apostle, he had something that looks like a "moral"

Zodd is indeed special, but he's not a nice person and his subordination to Griffith is not in doubt.

 

[Phonon89]

Oh I guarantee you that someone somewhere is already convinced of this. .

Unfortunately, I already saw a YouTube video talking about this. I won’t share here of course to not spread these sorts of “theory” videos.

 

[Odysseus]

Berserk's western fanbase has always been plagued by misconceptions about the series, and I feel like that's only gonna get worse with the continuation being so dialogue sparse and bad at conveying what's going on. Click bait theory videos shall thrive lol.

 

[Xenoskell]

Perhaps Zodd is not fulfilled enough, because he didn't get to properly fight an worthy opponent by a while.
His encounter with Guts was so fast that I wouldn't even call it a fight itself.

But, no doubt, he's completely devoted to Griffith, and, in that particular scene, by no means he's standing "unhappy" behind the pillar.
Rather, he's just idling and waiting for orders sent by Griffith, nothing less, nothing more.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised at all if Mori fucks up and changes his personality.
I may be exaggerating, but after reading the disrespectful tweet from that assistant at Studio Gaga, I don't even think these guys are caring about the work anymore, and I don't trust them either.

 

[Griffith]

Oh I guarantee you that someone somewhere is already convinced of this.

Your very next point...

But... Irvine kneels immediately as he arrives.

At least the misreading of everything will now be less egregious relative to the quality of the storytelling. You should have fun with it Aaz, "Yeah, sure, maybe, I mean why the fuck not at this point?"

Clearly lots of work went into this episode from Studio Gaga. Backgrounds, armors and costumes, poses and angles... It really can't be said they aren't trying

Yeah, clearly a lot of effort is being made to produce this result, it's Herculean even the way they're doing their own reproduction of Berserk's style in a way that a casual observer might not notice, but you can't simply replicate Miura's overall authorial talent and genius with effort, "Mozart died before the big concert tonight... hey, didn't you help tune his piano and transcribe some!?"

You are right, it's just a expectation that is hard to not have. I think not talking about it is the better thing now.

It'll help the further away we get as this naturally develops into its own thing that's progress can be judged on its own merits against itself. In retrospect, having to start at such an incredibly significant moment and inflection point for the series couldn't have been a worse setup as far as starting expectations. They could really only disappoint.

Are we taking about previous intentions of Griffith, not Femto, here? That's a doubt I always have(not just with the continuation) because we know that Femto doesn't have any human emotions on him, Griffith humans intentions was just a causality parallel to his future God Hands "role"(if that's a thing)

Yeah, like Walter said I meant his recent declaration, but yeah, whatever questions may have existed about Griffith's versus Femto's goals, it's a distinction without a difference at this point; even without the lost episode indicating Griffith/Femto was always meant to be like this, it's clearly a feature and not a bug.

For a reason we don't fully understand yet, the God Hand's masterplan relies on reproducing the conditions that existed during Gaizeric's reign. At that time, Gaizeric and his allies managed to thwart Void's objectives somehow, even though it came at great cost. So now they're doing it in a way they fully control, with one of their own as the emperor-to-be, and it's the culmination of a thousand-years-long plan.

What's unfortunate is that the reasoning for all this is probably nuanced and abstract enough that the continuation's version is almost certain to dumb it down and leave a lot to be desired.

Zodd is indeed special, but he's not a nice person and his subordination to Griffith is not in doubt.

BuT hE's A tRu WaRiEr WiT HoNuR!

Berserk's western fanbase has always been plagued by misconceptions about the series, and I feel like that's only gonna get worse with the continuation being so dialogue sparse and bad at conveying what's going on. Click bait theory videos shall thrive lol.

Again, it might actually get better because there's going to be a lot less to misunderstand and misinterpret. Sure, that's never going away, but it's hard to be confused when they literally do an episode and half on Guts' sword missing Griffith and another episode plus on him being sad about his sword missing (and that's basically all there is to it =).

On the other hand, I would not be surprised at all if Mori fucks up and changes his personality.
I may be exaggerating, but after reading the disrespectful tweet from that assistant at Studio Gaga, I don't even think these guys are caring about the work anymore, and I don't trust them either.

Well, I don't think they have bad intentions or aren't caring or trying, it's just the fact they're not HIM and that's not going to change.

 

[Aazealh]

Berserk's western fanbase has always been plagued by misconceptions about the series, and I feel like that's only gonna get worse with the continuation being so dialogue sparse and bad at conveying what's going on.

You're right, and part of that is people haven't adapted to the fact Miura's not drawing the manga anymore. So they expect a similar attention to detail while it isn't there. Things that would have been meaningful before, like mentioning two different ways to refer to the World Tree, are not anymore.

Perhaps Zodd is not fulfilled enough, because he didn't get to properly fight an worthy opponent by a while.

Honestly? I don't think it means anything. What they tried to do is reproduce the shot from volume 23 when Mule goes to meet Griffith, with Zodd guarding the space. But his facial expression looks more like a frown here, so he seems pensive or even sad. Add in the useless "........." speech bubble that probably shouldn't be there and it's not surprising people are drawing conclusions.

Yeah, clearly a lot of effort is being made to produce this result, it's Herculean even the way they're doing their own reproduction of Berserk's style in a way that a casual observer might not notice, but you can't simply replicate Miura's overall authorial talent and genius with effort

Exactly. If anything it just validates Miura's belief that with enough practice his assistants could have handled more of the work under his direction, a few years down the line. It's such a shame he was taken so early.

What's unfortunate is that the reasoning for all this is probably nuanced and abstract enough that the continuation's version is almost certain to dumb it down and leave a lot to be desired.

That is a risk indeed. We can only hope it relies on a big, striking concept that will work even without Miura's touch.

 

[Walter]

There IS precedence to think of Zodd as an outsider among the apostles. That's always how he's depicted. Though he's the foremost (and first!) of the apostles who serve Griffith, he's been shown to have his own code. But using this panel as some kind of triggering moment is premature. There's no indication Mori is hitting the ZODD REBEL button here. It's an ellipsis. And he's only really there to show that he's there. That's his function in this scene.

A few years ago we talked at length about Zodd on a podcast (98)—including possible ending scenarios for him, why he’d likely die at Guts’ hands, and how he could indirectly disobey one of Griffith’s orders, if it went against his warrior code. He's a great character. There's lots of potential for him. But I think people are grasping at straws idly to turn this little moment into something bigger than it is. That's somewhat understandable, given that there's not a ton to discuss here.

 

[manvsdestiny]

Though he's the foremost (and first!) of the apostles who serve Griffith, h

i wonder how zodd knew griffith was gonna incarnate into the corporeal world but then again skullknight did to,his origin is very mysterious but somehow it ties into sk hopefully this all gets figured out one day.

 

[Walter]

i wonder how zodd knew griffith was gonna incarnate into the corporeal world but then again skullknight did too

Everyone who needed to be there got an oracle/mass dream of what was about to happen. That's in Vol 17.

 

[Goat]

Reading Puella's translation:

Page 17

Casca: If I… don’t go back…

Casca: …Gu…

That "Gu" is Guts, I guess.
So, if Casca does not go back... Guts what? What's the implication of this? Just another random blurry filler inner dialogue?

 

[Aazealh]

Reading Puella's translation:

Page 17

Casca: If I… don’t go back…

Casca: …Gu…

That "Gu" is Guts, I guess.
So, if Casca does not go back... Guts what? What's the implication of this? Just another random blurry filler inner dialogue?

It's deliberately unclear, and to be honest I would say it's not even sure the "Guts" part is connected to the rest, given that it's in a separate panel. It could be, but she could also just be calling his name in despair. Anyway, yeah I wouldn't read too much into it. She's just desperate to go back and wants to be reunited with Guts.

 

[Beelzebud]

He meant what Griffith said in Ep 358, when he laid out the plan for the "second empire." It's not about emotions. Whatever human Griffith wanted is synonymous with what Femto wanted and is in the cards for the God Hand's ultimate plans. That's how causality works.

Ah, i get it. I always feel kind of dumb here(I'm not offended or something) because you guys are literally living encyclopedias

The new team did 7 episodes in 2022.

Yeah, i was just speculating and trying to make an hypothetical scenario of the future, not a deep estimation.

Zodd is indeed special, but he's not a nice person and his subordination to Griffith is not in doubt.

Indeed

BuT hE's A tRu WaRiEr WiT HoNuR!

Already heard some fanfiction about it
He just has some type of code of his own, a glimpse of his humanity.

It'll help the further away we get as this naturally develops into its own thing that's progress can be judged on its own merits against itself.

I'm already feeling that time is helping, somehow, with the acceptance of Berserk future (and present).

But it will fail because of Guts & Casca's son. A fitting karmic retribution for Femto's sins during the Eclipse. One might called it causality.

Yeah, like Walter said I meant his recent declaration, but yeah, whatever questions may have existed about Griffith's versus Femto's goals, it's a distinction without a difference at this point; even without the lost episode indicating Griffith/Femto was always meant to be like this, it's clearly a feature and not a bug.

With all the discussions here, you guys(and most of us who read yours comments) absolutely know the direction that the story is leading, but

What's unfortunate is that the reasoning for all this is probably nuanced and abstract enough that the continuation's version is almost certain to dumb it down and leave a lot to be desired.

that's probably what concerns me the most. Hopefully Miura planned the final plot long ago(Mori said something about him planning the plots for years) and the new team will be able to give at least the idea of what Miura want to give us( or don't )

 

[lividfire]

I'm going to have to go through with photoshop and shorten all the necks in this continuation by about 2 feet when this is all over so I can have a solid readthrough without being distracted by it. That's really what is bothering me the most about this. Casca's is just jarring and ridiculous.
I haven't been on the forums in quite a while so maybe other people have complained about it and I didn't see, but I feel like I'm the only one truly bothered by it. Maddening.

 

[Xenoskell]

I'm going to have to go through with photoshop and shorten all the necks in this continuation by about 2 feet when this is all over so I can have a solid readthrough without being distracted by it. That's really what is bothering me the most about this. Casca's is just jarring and ridiculous.
I haven't been on the forums in quite a while so maybe other people have complained about it and I didn't see, but I feel like I'm the only one truly bothered by it. Maddening.

While there's a lot of things to complain about the art (specially in previous episodes), this is one of the things that are not bothering me at all.
They seem natural.
Mainly because Miura has done this as well at some panels or artwork, such as this :

Or this :

To expand upon this, old masters from the Mannerism period had a tendency of painting figures like that, with the most popular one being "Maddona with the Long Neck" by Parmigianino :

Madonna with the Long Neck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The main reason for doing elongated members/limbs is because it makes the characters more elegant, or graceful, divine, maybe innocent as well.
So, if we see in this context, it makes sense that Casca has a longer neck than in other chapters, since she's being treated like a noble figure, at least on the outside ; her clothes and her room all resemble that.

Now, someone may say that the assistants wouldn't go as far as paying attention to these details...but I've seen some rare evidences that they do, such as when they did this homage to the 1997 anime:

Spoiler

 

[Aazealh]

Now, someone may say that the assistants wouldn't go as far as paying attention to these details...but I've seen some rare evidences that they do, such as when they did this homage to the 1997 anime

Mori's the one doing the storyboards as far as I know, and I'd say it's probably a coincidence that these shots of Guts walking away resemble each other, because it'd be utterly nonsensical to do an "homage" to that.

 

[Xenoskell]

Mori's the one doing the storyboards as far as I know, and I'd say it's probably a coincidence that these shots of Guts walking away resemble each other, because it'd be utterly nonsensical to do an "homage" to that.

Perhaps he just used that as reference then.

 

[Walter]

Perhaps he just used that as reference then.

I dunno, man. You’ve paired those panels in a way that seems superficially convincing. But that doesn’t feel intentional, to me.

 

[sangattsu]

I dunno, man. You’ve paired those panels in a way that seems superficially convincing. But that doesn’t feel intentional, to me.

I don't think it's just the way he paired those panels. I immediately recognized the similarity when I read the episode for the first time. It could just be a coincidence though. There are only so many ways one can draw Guts turning around and walking away. That being said, I don't see why it's too ridiculous to believe that Mori would include an homage to Berserk '97's OP.

 

[Aazealh]

That being said, I don't see why it's too ridiculous to believe that Mori would include an homage to Berserk '97's OP.

Mori's mission statement for the continuation was to faithfully convey what he knew of Miura's plans for the story, without adding things of his own. In that context, including random homages would be a strange liberty to take. More important is the fact it'd be completely meaningless. What's there to give an homage to, exactly? That sequence from the '97 anime doesn't hold a special significance, and for the original work to do a call back to a random sequence in an old adaptation frankly just seems bizarre and uncalled for. Since we're talking about the guy who made Falconia into a coastal city, I'm not going to say he's above that sort of stuff, but it certainly would be a ridiculous thing to do as far as I'm concerned.

I guess we'll know for sure if they do a randomly burning flower next. Then we can have an innkeeper talk about how terrible things have been since Griffith became king.

 

[Xenoskell]

I dunno, man. You’ve paired those panels in a way that seems superficially convincing. But that doesn’t feel intentional, to me.

The image was not made by me. I saw it on Reddit.

I admit that calling it "homage" may be a stretch of mine.
But it's completely normal to use it as a reference, since it's a nice moment in the 1997 anime opening.

Mori's mission statement for the continuation was to faithfully convey what he knew of Miura's plans for the story, without adding things of his own. In that context, including random homages would be a strange liberty to take. More important is the fact it'd be completely meaningless. What's there to give an homage to, exactly? That sequence from the '97 anime doesn't hold a special significance, and for the original work to do a call back to a random sequence in an old adaptation frankly just seems bizarre and uncalled for. Since we're talking about the guy who made Falconia into a coastal city, I'm not going to say he's above that sort of stuff, but it certainly would be a ridiculous thing to do as far as I'm concerned.

I guess we'll know for sure if they do a randomly burning flower next. Then we can have an innkeeper talk about how terrible things have been since Griffith became king.

Maybe Mori has a huge reference catalog and he just happened to pick this scene from the opening.

PS: IIRC, didn't Miura liked this adaptation a lot?
I remember that he even did this short comic (which was pretty funny btw) :

I don't think it's just the way he paired those panels. I immediately recognized the similarity when I read the episode for the first time. It could just be a coincidence though. There are only so many ways one can draw Guts turning around and walking away. That being said, I don't see why it's too ridiculous to believe that Mori would include an homage to Berserk '97's OP.

I also didn't understand why that would be ridiculous.
If it was a change in the story, I would agree though.

 

[Aazealh]

But it's completely normal to use it as a reference, since it's a nice moment in the 1997 anime opening.

No, I don't think one can say it's "completely normal" to use the opening sequence from the 1997 adaptation as a reference for a scene in which Casca has a nightmare about Guts leaving her in 2023. For one thing, any mangaka that's good enough to be published can storyboard a scene of a guy turning around without needing a reference. And for another, it's pointless and meaningless as far as the story is concerned; it amounts to saying "hey remember that?" and nothing more.

Maybe Mori has a huge reference catalog and he just happened to pick this scene from the opening.

This just seems completely unlikely to me. Either it's specifically meant to evoke the anime or it's a coincidence, but to suggest Mori is using a "reference catalog" to do this kind of stuff, and that it would happen to contain stills from the anime series that was produced 26 years ago? It just doesn't hold water. Artists use reference material for detailed anatomical shots or complex architecture, not for this sort of stuff. In addition, regarding what Walter said about choosing specific frames to make it more convincing, see the comparison attached showing more of the sequence where it's not quite as similar.

I also didn't understand why that would be ridiculous.
If it was a change in the story, I would agree though.

I mean, inserting an "homage" that couldn't possibly have been intended by Miura is about as needless a change or addition as you can make it.

 

[Xenoskell]

No, I don't think one can say it's "completely normal" to use the opening sequence from the 1997 adapation as a reference for a scene in which Casca has a nightmare about Guts leaving her in 2023. For one thing, any mangaka that's good enough to be published can storyboard a scene of a guy turning around without needing a reference. And for another, it's pointless and meaningless as far as the story is concerned; it amounts to saying "hey remember that?" and nothing more.



This just seems completely unlikely to me. Either it's specifically meant to evoke the anime or it's a coincidence, but to suggest Mori is using a "reference catalog" to do this kind of stuff, and that it would happen to contain stills from the anime series that was produced 26 years ago? It just doesn't hold water. Artists use reference material for detailed anatomical shots or complex architecture, not for this sort of stuff.

And regarding what Walter said about choosing the right frames to make it convincing, see the comparison attached where other frames give a different result.



I mean, inserting an "homage" that couldn't possibly have been intended by Miura is about as needless a change or addition as you can make it

If it's meaningless then it isn't ridiculous to use that scene as reference.

Ok buddy, I already said that I stretched when I called that "homage".
No need to keep insisting on that.

Let's move forward.

 

[Aazealh]

If it's meaningless then it isn't ridiculous to use that scene as reference.

I said it would be ridiculous to include it as an homage because it's meaningless.

However, regarding what you suggested about Mori having a "reference catalog" that would somehow contain very specific still frames taken from the opening of the '97 animation, I explained why I don't think it would be a "completely normal" thing to do, given the way Mori and Studio Gaga seem to work, and the way artists work in general. It doesn't seem like you paid attention to what I said in the post you quoted.

Ok buddy, I already said that I stretched when I called that "homage".
No need to keep insisting on that.

Let's move forward.

I'm just replying to what you said, no need to get all prickly. And the conversation in this thread had died down before you revived it, so there's nowhere to move forward to. Which is fine by me, I'm happy to leave it at that. None of this is very important!

 

[AndroidLB]

PS: IIRC, didn't Miura liked this adaptation a lot?
I remember that he even did this short comic (which was pretty funny btw) :

Not saying that Miura didn't like the 97 anime, I'd think he for sure was happy how fine adaptation his young and still not yet so popular manga got. But just saying that that comic was made as a promotional type of material (part of Berserk Gaiden /eng: side story).

IMO Mori doing a homage to the anime is bit of stretch. As if you look at the scene composition, Guts is "leaving" turning his back. That's just the simplest way to portray it. There could be some implication that Casca thinks that Guts is turning his back to her. But that guessing by this scene and it didn't really hapoen and it isn't explored after wards, so just throwing an empty observation.