Episode 380

[Aazealh]

I don't know how many times I'll need to tell you guys that Miura left no notes detailing the rest of the story. That is not what the Continuation is based on.

As much as I'd like this published out of curiosity, I suspect that the notes are scattered and incomplete, with Mori and Gaga also relying heavily on half-remembered conversations and impressions from Miura. It's not as if Miura had any indication that his death was imminent, and so his notes would have been just reminders to himself rather than a manuscript to execute should something happen to him.

I appreciate your efforts to contextualize it, ApostleBob, but you're still presenting this as if the team was mainly basing itself on direct material from Miura and "also" relying on their memories of casual talks with him, which is misleading. The truth is they are pretty much entirely relying on their memories of random discussions. It's what the initial announcement for the Continuation said, only mentioning "memos" and "character designs" as an afterthought.

Before his passing, Kentaro Miura spoke to his close friend Kouji Mori about the stories and episodes he had in mind for Berserk. He also had similar talks with his studio staff and editor. He wondered, would everyone be surprised if I drew something like this? How about a character like this? Would this storyline be interesting? The talks were not meant as his last words, but were a part of his ordinary days as a manga artist.
Such ordinary days continued for more than a quarter of a century. Our minds and hearts are still filled with the thoughts Mr. Miura shared with us during that time. We have also found memos of ideas he wrote and designs for characters that he drew and left behind.

And this mystery material hasn't been brought up again. Instead, Mori has emphasized in every interview he's given since then that it's tough to make sense of his memories. He's never mentioned them referring to notes.

In short, the idea that they're following a clearly laid-out plan from Miura is a delusion born of wishful thinking. Even if Mori published an article with a few illustrations like he originally planned to, it'd still just be his recollection of discussions with Miura.

 

[ApostleBob]

I appreciate your efforts to contextualize it, ApostleBob, but you're still presenting this as if the team was mainly basing itself on direct material from Miura and "also" relying on their memories of casual talks with him, which is misleading. The truth is they are pretty much entirely relying on their memories of random discussions. It's what the initial announcement for the Continuation said, only mentioning "memos" and "character designs" as an afterthought.

Wow, that's even worse than I recall. I didn't know we had overt confirmation that this is all mostly based on casual conversation. I had thought that there were more post-it notes, rough outlines, and scribbles to supplement the continuation. But that sounds like even that is overstating it.

 

[Aazealh]

Wow, that's even worse than I recall. I didn't know we had overt confirmation that this is all mostly based on casual confirmation. I had thought that were more post-it notes, rough outlines, and scribbles to supplemnt the continuation. But that sounds like even that is overstating it.

Yeah, there's no "rough outline" or anything of the sort. You can bet that if they actually had an outline from Miura, they'd be shouting it from the rooftops. As far as we know, it's all been based on bits and pieces Mori and the team recall from casual conversations.

Honestly, it's unclear at this point whether the material they found is even usable. I think the most we can expect is for some of those character designs to get published at the back on an artbook, many years down the line. But even that is wishful thinking.

 

[cijhho123]

"And even that disappears immediately, With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew."
I miss him a lot today...

 

[Vitris]

At this point I just want this thing to end, whether they'll suddently stop next week or something or not. Mori can't remember everything Miura had told him over the years, and they don't know how to connect the little bits of information that they have. If they really care about delivering the ending that Miura had in mind, they should just release an interview or an article where they reveal what it was supposed to be and put an end to this "continuation".

 

[Xenoskell]

I don't know how many times I'll need to tell you guys that Miura left no notes detailing the rest of the story. That is not what the Continuation is based on.



I appreciate your efforts to contextualize it, ApostleBob, but you're still presenting this as if the team was mainly basing itself on direct material from Miura and "also" relying on their memories of casual talks with him, which is misleading. The truth is they are pretty much entirely relying on their memories of random discussions. It's what the initial announcement for the Continuation said, only mentioning "memos" and "character designs" as an afterthought.



And this mystery material hasn't been brought up again. Instead, Mori has emphasized in every interview he's given since then that it's tough to make sense of his memories. He's never mentioned them referring to notes.

In short, the idea that they're following a clearly laid-out plan from Miura is a delusion born of wishful thinking. Even if Mori published an article with a few illustrations like he originally planned to, it'd still just be his recollection of discussions with Miura.

I knew they didn't have a plan, but at least expected that the had some randomly spread notes about the story.
So it seemed, but from what you told us, there is nothing.

PS: On an unrelated note (no pun intended), is there any thread where we can discuss the previous episodes?
I have a question about something you wrote in the 362 chapter, but I don't know where to post since that thread is archived/closed.

 

[Aazealh]

I knew they didn't have a plan, but at least expected that the had some randomly spread notes about the story.
So it seemed, but from what you told us, there is nothing.

Well keep in mind these were notes Miura wrote to himself. You do that for tentative ideas about specific details you don't want to forget because you might consider them later, not for stuff you're confident about or have long had in mind.

It's not at all like leaving notes for someone else to finish your story, which he definitely didn't do. That's where the confusion comes from. "Notes" in itself means everything and nothing. Anyway, like I said, even the original announcement presented the Continuation as being based on Mori's (and the others') memories.

PS: On an unrelated note (no pun intended), is there any thread where we can discuss the previous episodes?
I have a question about something you wrote in the 362 thread, but I don't know where to post since that thread is archived/closed.

Manga mausoleum is the dedicated section. But if you just want to ask me personally about something I said, you can just DM me or ask in the chat.

 

[kennyscp12]

Well keep in mind these were notes Miura wrote to himself. You do that for tentative ideas about specific details you don't want to forget because you might consider them later, not for stuff you're confident about or have long had in mind.

It's not at all like leaving notes for someone else to finish your story, which he definitely didn't do. That's where the confusion comes from. "Notes" in itself means everything and nothing. Anyway, like I said, even the original announcement presented the Continuation as being based on Mori's (and the others') memories.

Mori and the team have to do something to save the series from now on. The villainy of this episode is that I hope it is at least the last episode where they violate the rules that Miura has set.

We know that Mori and the team read social media, more openly here. Should we post about what they should do and what their rules are? It wouldn't be disrespectful, and it wouldn't be arrogant, it would just be seen as a reproach from concerned fans and a move in themselves to correct the course of the series.

 

[Aazealh]

Mori and the team have to do something to save the series from now on. The villainy of this episode is that I hope it is at least the last episode where they violate the rules that Miura has set.

We know that Mori and the team read social media, more openly here. Should we post about what they should do and what their rules are? It wouldn't be disrespectful, and it wouldn't be arrogant, it would just be seen as a reproach from concerned fans and a move in themselves to correct the course of the series.

I don't want to discourage you but I don't think it's going to get better... and while it wouldn't hurt to give feedback, I doubt Mori and Kurosaki are looking for pointers from fans.

 

[kennyscp12]

I don't want to discourage you but I don't think it's going to get better... and while it wouldn't hurt to give feedback, I doubt Mori and Kurosaki are looking for pointers from fans.

Then shame on all of 'em. We are not betraying the legacy of Miura-san masterpiece.

 

[Ishtli]

I figured that, rather than reading the episode directly, I'd check the summaries here to make the disappointment less impactful...but seeing them make Guts suicidal is a new low and frankly against the very essence of him as a struggler.
Please just put the manga out of its misery already,it hurts seeing it dragged through the mud like this...

 

[Haddish Meraf]

Mori and the team have to do something to save the series from now on. The villainy of this episode is that I hope it is at least the last episode where they violate the rules that Miura has set.

We know that Mori and the team read social media, more openly here. Should we post about what they should do and what their rules are? It wouldn't be disrespectful, and it wouldn't be arrogant, it would just be seen as a reproach from concerned fans and a move in themselves to correct the course of the series.

Wouldn't bother, you'd be drowned out by those who think the Team are doing charity work. Best to make peace with the situation, though i'm still a hypocrite by holding onto some delusion on things getting better, can't help myself.

 

[Arthur Higgsbury]

A little bit off the topic at hand, but if "Guts" truly was at such a low point here, wouldn't it be the right time for his Beherit to activate or am I missing something? I suppose it's possible he's not at his "lowest point" yet, or more likely, the continuation just doesn't remember how those things work.

(Maybe I'm wrong though, not super informed on how Beherits work.)

I would have expected "Guts" to maybe be tempted by his Beherit in some way, but would refuse it's call out of hatred, out of hope, or out of some unwillingness to sacrifice what he has. All speculation though, and again, I'm probably misunderstanding how the Beherit works.

 

[Lawliet]

A little bit off the topic at hand, but if "Guts" truly was at such a low point here, wouldn't it be the right time for his Beherit to activate or am I missing something? I suppose it's possible he's not at his "lowest point" yet, or more likely, the continuation just doesn't remember how those things work.

(Maybe I'm wrong though, not super informed on how Beherits work.)

I would have expected "Guts" to maybe be tempted by his Beherit in some way, but would refuse it's call out of hatred, out of hope, or out of some unwillingness to sacrifice what he has. All speculation though, and again, I'm probably misunderstanding how the Beherit works.

Guts will never be in a situation where "his" beherit would activate. Because it's not his. As early as the Black Swordsman Arc, he is described as one who is "not ordained by the law of causality". As in, he isn't one of the people who are meant to have a beherit and be presented with the choice to become an apostle.

Besides, he's branded and I don't think branded folks can become apostles. It makes no sense.

 

[Arthur Higgsbury]

Guts will never be in a situation where "his" beherit would activate. Because it's not his. As early as the Black Swordsman Arc, he is described as one who is "not ordained by the law of causality". As in, he isn't one of the people who are meant to have a beherit and be presented with the choice to become an apostle.

Ah, ok. I completely forgot that it isn't technically his. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[cijhho123]

Besides, he's branded and I don't think branded folks can become apostles. It makes no sense.

Why's that? I don't think the established lore so far contradict this, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lawliet]

Why's that? I don't think the established lore so far contradict this, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the branded are meant to be sacrificial victims to apostles - they're meant to be killed and then taken to the vortex. Would it make sense for a person to be given that role and also meant to survive the ceremony only to become an apostle later? Sounds like illogical or haphazard planning on the part of the God of the Abyss.

 

[cijhho123]

I see where you're coming from. But since we already know that the act of sacrifing itself is the heart of the invocation, not the victim's actual death - I think that it is still technically possible.

 

[Lawliet]

I see where you're coming from. But since we already know that the act of sacrifing itself is the heart of the invocation, not the victim's actual death - I think that it is still technically possible.

Hmmm. I think apostles and branded are simply categorically opposite beings - predator and prey, killer and victim: they're not meant to mix. So it's less a matter of technical possibility and more of the roles these beings are assigned in the world. In other words, it's not that the God of the Abyss can't make them into apostles, but that it won't.

That's my understanding anyway.

 

[Aazealh]

I think apostles and branded are simply categorically opposite beings

The beherit apostle sacrificed himself and bore the brand, so there's a precedent in the story for an apostle being branded. That being said it's meant to be an exception, and to go back to the original point, Guts isn't meant to be using the beherit and become an apostle. Not just because he's branded or because it's missing a certificate of ownership, but because it wouldn't make any sense thematically.

 

[Lawliet]

The beherit apostle sacrificed himself and bore the brand, so there's a precedent in the story for an apostle being branded. That being said it's meant to be an exception, and to go back to the original point, Guts isn't meant to be using the beherit and become an apostle. Not just because he's branded or because it's missing a certificate of ownership, but because it wouldn't make any sense thematically.

But he was already an apostle, not a branded human becoming an apostle by branding someone else. The latter is what I find illogical or at least very unlikely. That aside, he's an exceptional case as you've said.

Also, I'm always forgetting about this guy, damn it

 

[Beelzebud]

to go back to the original point, Guts isn't meant to be using the beherit and become an apostle. Not just because he's branded or because it's missing a certificate of ownership, but because it wouldn't make any sense thematically.

Also, Guts is without possession of his belongings so it's out of question just because of this. The Beherit is not with him.

 

[Aazealh]

Also, Guts is without possession of his belongings so it's out of question just because of this. The Beherit is not with him.

......Yes, famously if you don't have the beherit on you at all times, you'll miss your chance when the moment comes. (No that's not how it works, the beherit finds its way to you when it's time, even if you've never seen it before)

 

[Beelzebud]

......Yes, famously if you don't have the beherit on you at all times, you'll miss the chance when the moment comes. (No that's not how it works, the beherit finds its way to you when it's time, even if you've never seen it before)

Well, that's exactly what I mean, Guts DOES have the beherit with him all the time, but not now. So first in order for it to activate it should find its heway to Guts.

The same for the best example we have: Griffith that could have his Beherit activated when captive, but it only found it's way to Griffith after that, and we know the why's and how's.

 

[Aazealh]

Well, that's exactly what I mean, Guts DOES have the beherit with him all the time, but not now. So first in order for it to activate it should find its heway to Guts.

Sorry but I think you're missing the point. Whether a character can become an apostle or not has nothing to do with whether they have a beherit in their possession at a given moment. That's because if they are meant to become an apostle, then a beherit will be there when they need it.

More importantly, your reasoning here goes directly against what I was saying in the post you quoted: that it's not just technicalities that prevent Guts from becoming an apostle, but the fact it is fundamentally incompatible with his character. It just wouldn't make sense.

Anyway, this is really far off from this thread's intended topic. This kind of discussion should be taking place in Manga Mausoleum.