Episodes 365 & 366
- Thread starter Aazealh
- Start date
Guts trying to hold back the armor and not let it consume him might very well mean that he watches out for Casca & co.
Otherwise he might just have put on his helmet and rage away and the next time he became sane again everyone is dead because he didn't notice what happened to the others.
Tho some inner thoughts of Guts would have certainly helped to make it more clear
You also can't forget that this is the first time he sees him like that since quite some time. Guts finally thought he achieved something. Brought his friends to a somewhat safe place and healed Cascas mind.
On top of that, the kid that made Casca so happy turns out to be Griffith, so Guts got fucked over by him again.
We just saw the first couple of seconds/minutes of their first encounter since a long time. Let's see how Guts behaves in the upcoming episodes
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If Guts is meant to be understood as protecting Casca and the others, they sure did a poor job of presenting that. The beast eye, the mindless swinging, the "GRIFFITH" shout, and so doesn't paint a picture of anything but a mindless fury to me. So no, I don't think your defense holds.
Guts is a man who's been on a hell of a journey, and has matured significantly in it. I would expect more of him at this point than what we saw.
But yes, we will see what the next episodes hold in store.
Reading this now is difficult to really take in and I know that it's not the same without Kentaro Miura, but looking at these two episodes back to back. It really shows that the artists involved gave nothing but their 100% to stay as close to what Miura drew, granted it's not completely Miura and I'm fine with that.
As for the story itself, it's not quite what I was expecting but given how 366 ends I think we're in for quite a wild ride as this arc steers to an end.
But overall, it feels weird seeing Berserk back and I have alot of faith in Kouji Mori & Studio Gaga considering how much they are walking on Eggshells to conclude this story, but I loved every bit of this.
As for the story itself, it's not quite what I was expecting but given how 366 ends I think we're in for quite a wild ride as this arc steers to an end.
But overall, it feels weird seeing Berserk back and I have alot of faith in Kouji Mori & Studio Gaga considering how much they are walking on Eggshells to conclude this story, but I loved every bit of this.
Sure, but it is also entirely possible that there may be some new plot-point/device introduced in the future episodes that may explain how Zodd navigated the World Tree's branches (if Sonia does end up not being present and/or right behind Zodd) to arrive on Skellig.
If it does turn out to be a new plot element introduced to explain Zodd’s presence, I guess readers will have to judge for themselves whether they think it was something that Miura was originally planning for, or if it is Studio Gaga and/or Mori simply guessing on the "how" of something that they only knew the "what" of (e.g. Mori and Gaga may have definitively knew Miura planned on having Zodd arrive in Elfhelm, but they didn't/don't have any definite knowledge of how Miura was planning to depict it).
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That's a lot of words to essentially repeat what I said. Except I don't find it plausible at all that Miura would have planned a secret way for Zodd (that's spelled with two Ds) to not need Sonia or Griffith to lead the way while he established it less than 10 episodes ago.
I feel that in 366 his facial expressions switch quite a bit between desperation and anger. Not just pure fury.
Desperate that he doesn't seem to be able to hit him and scared Griffith might get too close to the others since he seems to keep his position between Griffith and his party up until Zodd descends.
It's fascinating that not only are these episodes very polarizing. There also seems to be an inversion of opinions about Berserk throughout the community since the team unveiled their work.
For example, I've seen some readers who have been critical of Miura and Berserk in the past come through the woodwork to support this. And some fans who have stood by eagerly with each release are critical of how the new team handled these episodes.
I'm trying to understand this phenomenon myself. But maybe removing Miura removes any perceived stigmas that accumulated around him among readers who have for various reasons not been happy with Berserk. So for them, maybe these episodes simply feel like a fresh start and an injection of new talent. But if you were already a big fan of Berserk and Miura, then this shift to a new team can look clumsy and misguided.
I'm unfortunately in the latter camp. I've loved Berserk probably even more as the series rolled on, not less. So despite the new team's passion, which is clear on the page, it's difficult to watch them forcibly assemble a facsimile of what we've had in the past. Of course, it didn't need to be this way. The difficulty level was raised to maximum when they decided to attempt "Episode 365" and continue on as if nothing had changed, instead of working on something like a distillation of concepts for where the series was headed. I understand that decision was made with Mori's involvement, and he knew Miura's heart. But that doesn't make this proposal any easier, or any less fraught.
The problem with following this continuation is that we'll never be able to know what Miura would have done or how he would have done it. Every decision on every page will be scrutinized, even if it's unconscious. Every release will feel like watching over the shoulder of someone defusing a bomb.
Going into this episode, I was hopeful, a little excited. And my heart goes out to the team making it. But in the back of my mind, I knew that it still needed to pass a smell test. Would this still feel like Berserk? Unfortunately, having seen it now, I can't not second-guess how it's portrayed when Guts swings the Dragon Slayer into the ground over and over for a full page, without any internal monologue, without any actual threat of the beast overtaking him despite the futility of his struggle, and his greatest enemy is right here. I can't not wonder if the depiction of the Dragon Slayer going right through Griffith's head as if he were water was really how Miura would have portrayed Griffith being untouchable. And those are just the two substantial issues I had with these episodes. I don't think there's any value in picking on every page, but there are quite a lot of things that got in the way of me enjoying this. For example, when the leaks were happening, I saw two pages (Zodd appearing and Guts reacting) that, based on the quality of the art, I assumed was fake fanart someone had inserted to trick people for laughs (you know... like we're guilty of doing!). Then I saw them in the actual magazine. So yeah. There's that!
Even though Miura was a great artist, I was always more interested in his storytelling ability. And I don't just mean his words, but also the paneling, the arrangement of action on a page. He was really fucking good at it. Your eyes knew where to go, and the visuals he chose to depict made sense for each scene. And these episodes made it even more clear just how good he was because it was quite confusing following not only the obvious actions but the subtler ones too (like the moment that Schierke is pulled into the maelstrom). It's a relatively simple sequence of events between 365-366, but I had to read it maybe 2x to fully understand what was happening between the perspective transitions. I don't think I've had to do that before with Berserk.
For example, I've seen some readers who have been critical of Miura and Berserk in the past come through the woodwork to support this. And some fans who have stood by eagerly with each release are critical of how the new team handled these episodes.
I'm trying to understand this phenomenon myself. But maybe removing Miura removes any perceived stigmas that accumulated around him among readers who have for various reasons not been happy with Berserk. So for them, maybe these episodes simply feel like a fresh start and an injection of new talent. But if you were already a big fan of Berserk and Miura, then this shift to a new team can look clumsy and misguided.
I'm unfortunately in the latter camp. I've loved Berserk probably even more as the series rolled on, not less. So despite the new team's passion, which is clear on the page, it's difficult to watch them forcibly assemble a facsimile of what we've had in the past. Of course, it didn't need to be this way. The difficulty level was raised to maximum when they decided to attempt "Episode 365" and continue on as if nothing had changed, instead of working on something like a distillation of concepts for where the series was headed. I understand that decision was made with Mori's involvement, and he knew Miura's heart. But that doesn't make this proposal any easier, or any less fraught.
The problem with following this continuation is that we'll never be able to know what Miura would have done or how he would have done it. Every decision on every page will be scrutinized, even if it's unconscious. Every release will feel like watching over the shoulder of someone defusing a bomb.
Going into this episode, I was hopeful, a little excited. And my heart goes out to the team making it. But in the back of my mind, I knew that it still needed to pass a smell test. Would this still feel like Berserk? Unfortunately, having seen it now, I can't not second-guess how it's portrayed when Guts swings the Dragon Slayer into the ground over and over for a full page, without any internal monologue, without any actual threat of the beast overtaking him despite the futility of his struggle, and his greatest enemy is right here. I can't not wonder if the depiction of the Dragon Slayer going right through Griffith's head as if he were water was really how Miura would have portrayed Griffith being untouchable. And those are just the two substantial issues I had with these episodes. I don't think there's any value in picking on every page, but there are quite a lot of things that got in the way of me enjoying this. For example, when the leaks were happening, I saw two pages (Zodd appearing and Guts reacting) that, based on the quality of the art, I assumed was fake fanart someone had inserted to trick people for laughs (you know... like we're guilty of doing!). Then I saw them in the actual magazine. So yeah. There's that!
Even though Miura was a great artist, I was always more interested in his storytelling ability. And I don't just mean his words, but also the paneling, the arrangement of action on a page. He was really fucking good at it. Your eyes knew where to go, and the visuals he chose to depict made sense for each scene. And these episodes made it even more clear just how good he was because it was quite confusing following not only the obvious actions but the subtler ones too (like the moment that Schierke is pulled into the maelstrom). It's a relatively simple sequence of events between 365-366, but I had to read it maybe 2x to fully understand what was happening between the perspective transitions. I don't think I've had to do that before with Berserk.
I mean that’s essentially one of major inherent cruxes of the issue of Mori and Studio Gaga doing a manga continuation going forwards. Every single reader will have their own set of parameters of what they think is plausible for what Miura may have planned (plot-wise) and what they think is entirely original from Studio Gaga and/or Mori. And even if people could ask them exactly what, or even if Mori and Studio Gaga might eventually potentially volunteer to specify what exact story information they remembered from Miura and what they didn’t, it ultimately comes down to how much faith/trust/benefit of the doubt an individual is willing to give them in regards to the veracity of the continuation’s story.That's a lot of words to essentially repeat what I said. Except I don't find it plausible at all that Miura would have planned a secret way for Zodd (that's spelled with two Ds) to not need Sonia or Griffith to lead the way while he established it less than 10 episodes ago.
Also my bad about the Zodd spelling, I have recently been reading Superman comics, so the spelling of Zodd must have gotten mixed up subconsciously.
Like someone said earlier, if this wasn't berserk the team was making then I would have nothing but praise. They are exceptional artists. Unfortunately they are making berserk and the comparison is Miura 
I honestly don't know what I want anymore, there is no solution to this uncanny feeling we have reading. I will be back to read the new episodes anyway so theres that.
I honestly don't know what I want anymore, there is no solution to this uncanny feeling we have reading. I will be back to read the new episodes anyway so theres that.
I get it, but I would say that directly contradicting a recently established story element would not leave much doubt. It's kind of useless to talk about it further because I really don't expect them to make that mistake.
I don't think there's any reason to doubt Mori's intentions. At most he could misremember something, but to me the main factor at play remains how the staff will interpret the information they have and then execute it on the page.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I called it in the chat, the Berserk Civil War is here!
I think that's definitely a factor, and in many cases it could also be as simple as if you were more open to criticism of the manga previously, or believed Miura could do wrong to put it another way, then you're ironically going to be more open to and forgiving of mistakes from a brand new team attempting to carry on his work under difficult circumstances. Whereas if you thought Miura was pretty close to perfect... well, who the fuck are these guys to call their lies Berserk!!?
That's an extreme exaggeration of the feeling, but like you said about second guessing everything, this could even just be subconscious. This is the equivalent of when Grunbeld introduced himself to Guts as a member of the Falcons!
I think there's also an inversion of... if your way of consuming Berserk involved bitching about it and Miura, you basically came to the wrong place! But now it's open season, and the guys like me that would previously rationalize everything even before the ensuing episodes did can now theoretically tear it apart in real time because it's not attacking Miura anymore, but arguably defending the integrity of his work.
My biggest issue with this is simply that a fully conscious Guts would more quickly recognize the futility of this and pivot his approach, not just keep hitting the ground. At least in my mind, but do *I* know better than Mori and Studio Gaga? I wouldn't think I know more than Miura if he portrayed that; then it would just show how out of sorts Guts is!
Why wonder though? It's not! We know this because he didn't draw it. I don't think anybody thought they'd pull it off to where we couldn't tell the difference in every aspect. Does that mean they couldn't do better? Well, we'll see what they can do with what's to come. If this is the extent of it, that will indeed be limiting.
Isn't a lot of that, acknowledging the objective fact this isn't as good as what Miura could and would produce, more wrestling with our own expectations and perception? Now, they invited it by "continuing Berserk" in this manner, but we of all people know better. So, that's more we're chaffing at the way this is being framed, purportedly Berserk, than it not living up to... what? Actually being indiscernible from Miura? We knew that wasn't happening, so, it's really the way it's being presented rather than what's being presented (because we knew that couldn't be as good already) that's galling.
Justifying this thing to myself, I'm kind of looking at it as more is more; like, I'm still going to get more information this way than from an illustrated summary. I'd rather have something more complete than less, since I'm not getting the real thing anyway (this opinion may change =). I think for everyone except the most casual fans there's going to be an undeniably stark demarcation between volume 41 and beyond, it's just a matter of whether people will acknowledge this as an inherently imperfect, different continuation by his friends or 41 as the true end of Berserk and this some total folly (I might even mark it at episode 363, the last released in Miura's lifetime
).They can mimic the art style, but they can't recreate the artistry.
Anyway, I'm only responding to sort of interrogate these topics with another longtime fan. I'm not trying to convince you or change your opinion. Nobody has to like this. I guess I just see it as so inherently different that I'm not minding the differences yet or seeing them as problematic beyond... an acceptable margin of error; it's all things that are baked into the cake when you continue an auteur's seminal work without them. It ain't going to be like they would've done it.
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But if it’s simply a new development to reveal something new about the plot/lore/a character/etc. that doesn’t necessarily make it a contradiction/mistake? A story having characters state something as fact and then later having something in the story subvert/adding a wrinkle to what the characters said isn’t uncommon in fiction, especially fantasy and sci-fi.
Oh I didn’t mean doubt in regards to trusting their intention, I more meant, like you said, doubt/trust about whether they are interpreting and/or executing the information they have “correctly” (and what constitutes a “correct” interpretation/execution is a relatively subjective (at least in terms of plotting) discussion as well).
Oh and on a separate note, does the Hakusensha site not accept Visa credit cards anymore? I have been trying to purchase the digital Young Animal issue and the site doesn’t seem to be accepting the payment method I had been using before.
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RaffoBaffo
Ex-Newser of the late Berserk Chronicles
Coldn't he simply have followed the Moonchild like that time on the beach?
I read it, I enjoyed it and I'm more then happy looking forward to what Gaga and Mori have for us next. I knew from the moment I finished these two episodes that Miura would have drastically changed the way these were written, paneled and storyboarded but I'm still impressed with the detail and love that is on these pages. I hope we can give our full support to the team and still provide good criticism at the same time.
I'd say it's useless to try to analyze the thought process of the "content consumers" part of the readership. The main factor is probably simply that they're happy there's more content to consume (among the other content on their weekly list). Another one is that these two episodes are all about ACTION! When you don't look at the big picture and how events have to be set up before there can be a pay off, you end up thinking episodes 360 through 364 sucked and those two new ones are awesome!!! All about the action, finally!!! The same people may be really bummed out when the story goes back to character development. =)
I don't think anyone's been "tearing apart" these two episodes in this thread, though. Some people are just melancholic because they realize anew what a monumental loss the death of Kentarou Miura has been. If anything, we rather still have the same kinds of random guys coming in to try and disparage Miura and Berserk based on their misconceptions about the series. The more things change...
To try to explain this in terms a neuroatypical individual might understand, there is only a given amount of leeway in a story for introducing elements that change the status quo to the point where it directly contradicts previously established facts. If you do it all the time, it's just not a very good story. This is part of the basics of storytelling. Beyond that, if you look at how Miura constructed the story over the years, he was always very deliberate about introducing various things and having them pay off later. From all of that, it is statistically unlikely that what you propose would happen in this case. Anyway, we'll find out soon enough!
Very different situation. Zodd just flew from the Band of the Falcon's camp at the time, and it's even possible he carried the boy there himself, because he couldn't travel through the World Tree at the time. However in this case he's coming in a day later through the branches of the tree. It's the same process as shown in episode 357.
Well that's for sure. But maybe use that uncertainty to your advantage.
They give us a visual glimpse into Miuras plans for the story. People that spent decades with Miura and therefore it's probably the closest way to show how things might have gone.
Enjoying it as its own thing, and use whatever they create as a basis to guess what Miura might have done or done differently. I think that's a fun way to approach it
At least we didn't just get a bullet point list.
But Miura (almost certainly) wouldn't have drawn that scene, that's the whole point.
This is what I fear the discussions around Berserk will ultimately devolve into: "Oh, if Miura drew this, you wouldn't have complained!". A convenient cop-out but an invalid response.
I said before that Berserk is flawless and I stand by that. But my faith in Miura wasn't so blind that I would say that it is a guarantee the manga would have remained perfect if he finished it all through. I'd have high confidence, based on what he delivered so far, but not certainty.
So with that being said, had Miura drawn that scene, it would have not made sense anyway. Unless he would have made it work somehow, which I doubt in this case. This scene in and of itself is nonsensical.
RaffoBaffo
Ex-Newser of the late Berserk Chronicles
Yes, but time flow different, on the Island.
And maybe even in the branches.
That's why the boy could stay there more than one night. But it's not like only 5 minutes elapsed in the outside world. In fact, the episode title specifically refers to the fact it's the next day.
I'm a bit disappointed after reading those 2 episodes. I thought I had my expectations in check but I guess my subconscious was just expecting Miura's Berserk?
I was really looking forward to the Guts and Griffith confrontation but it felt flat with no real dialogue, inner monologue, or interesting expressions. It's just lacking the tension and gravity that Miura would execute perfectly. The art is obviously not as good throughout but I think we all expected that (except the Griffith panel on page 11 -- that one needs to be called out specifically
).
Overall, I'm not sure if I even want to continue reading the rest of the series; if I try to think of what the story post-364 would look like, it's becoming harder to imagine without panels of these two episodes seeping through. I still hope we get a text form of what Mori remembers, which imo should be released alongside these new episodes anyway.
I was really looking forward to the Guts and Griffith confrontation but it felt flat with no real dialogue, inner monologue, or interesting expressions. It's just lacking the tension and gravity that Miura would execute perfectly. The art is obviously not as good throughout but I think we all expected that (except the Griffith panel on page 11 -- that one needs to be called out specifically
).Overall, I'm not sure if I even want to continue reading the rest of the series; if I try to think of what the story post-364 would look like, it's becoming harder to imagine without panels of these two episodes seeping through. I still hope we get a text form of what Mori remembers, which imo should be released alongside these new episodes anyway.
Dark Emperor
Dweller of the Lotus Moon
If they actually do that, that will make me suspicious of their intentions. Mori seems like a genuine guy, but others surrounding this project could be posers that are there for money and that’s it. Only time will tell.
It isn't perfect - and even flawed compared to "classic" Berserk over this new contemporary continuation. I liked some of the imagery, like Zodd's hand coming down.
It's hard not to be critical. It's decent enough where I'll follow along - but I am already sort of dreading re-reads of the series once it's concluded. At least, after Miura.
Hopefully they welcome the feedback and adapt. For their first endeavor - I enjoyed it enough. It's more of a tease now, though. Because instead of imagining how certain events would have taken place - I'll now compare them conceptually to how we actually see them.
It's hard not to be critical. It's decent enough where I'll follow along - but I am already sort of dreading re-reads of the series once it's concluded. At least, after Miura.
Hopefully they welcome the feedback and adapt. For their first endeavor - I enjoyed it enough. It's more of a tease now, though. Because instead of imagining how certain events would have taken place - I'll now compare them conceptually to how we actually see them.
RaffoBaffo
Ex-Newser of the late Berserk Chronicles
It's the day after the fool moon on the island, is that the case on the outside?
You go on an island with a different flow of time and you enter during a full moon.
You want to go out, on the island there's still the fool moon, on the outside days have passed, what happens when you go out?
A big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.