Guts and Causality

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
This is just a small little thing I said earlier on some other post but didnt really make it as clear.

If you ask me, Guts is something that God Hand, Causality didnt exactly expect. He is able to survive pretty much anything, and he is purely human, minus the brand. Even still, he is able to utterly destroy many apostles, and live on through the 'edge of reality'. Some fans have even gone as far to say that Guts could be the USO, based on the fact that he has never given in to Idea. I.E. everything he has gained has been through his own works. Guts has avoided death on several, countless occasions, and if you ask me, any one of them was something designed by Idea to kill Guts, to erase him from the picture, for in the original plan of causality, Guts was meaningless, just another human not nearly as important as someone like Griffith, for whom an entire era of people were manipulated. and so, Guts survived his frightening birth, survived the attack with gambino, survived countless battles, the 100 man assault, Zodd, the eclipse, countless apostles, the count, Roshinu, Mozgus, a second fight with Zodd.....any of which could have been meant to wipe guts out of the picture.

However, if Guts was supposed to be killed off earlier, and yet remained a 'flaw' in the system of causality so to speak, then why/how did he play such an intricate role in Griffiths decision to enter the ranks of God Hand? In the end, Griffith chose the line 'you were the only one that was able to make me forget my dream' as if Guts was the catalyst for Griffiths role, and in many many ways, he is. So then...where does Guts lay (or did lay, since he is now branded, completely outside the picture if you ask me...but thats just theory) in the plan of causality? Intentional casualty of war? Unintentional flaw in the system? A way 'out' for Idea?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
A way 'out' for Idea?
I don’t discount the thought, but I personally think Idea is out for it’s own self-preservation. And I think Griffith is the agent of that cause now whether he knows it or not. Give people a little happiness and freewill and their creativity will start to flourish, I think Idea has been weakening since Gaiseric’s age but if Griffith brings about an age of darkness, mankind will depend on Idea more than ever!

I don’t see why some find the even the idea of Guts being the USO so improbable, Guts has been going against Casualty…well, literally since birth. He never had a purpose in life, nothing driving him except survival, I think that means something. He essentially hasn’t gone with ‘the flow’ like everyone else since a young age, if he has the power to ignore it, why is it so hard to believe he can’t go against it and win. I don’t think it’s a done deal, I don’t think Guts will start cutting through Apostles and God Hand’s like butter and become some kind of superman, if anything, it will become infinitely harder to go on. But I think Guts can do it, I don’t even think he even considers whether he can or not, nor does he care. Guts goes on, despite whatever obstacles may be in his path, he doesn’t give up, and so far he’s unstoppable. People ask, “How can Guts destroy Idea?” well now I’m asking just how Idea is supposed to destroy Guts?

-Griffith
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
How can Guts destroy Idea ? Through an antithesis of how it was created. How can Idea destroy Guts? Well....poop.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
See, that's just it... Idea COULD have destroyed gatts, many many times. sure, things seem impossible all the time for gatts, but let's think for a second... when are the odds ever REALLY stacked against gatts? his birth was weird, but we really don't have much information about that. gambino didn't stand a chance against gatts, not in the state gambino was in at the time. sure, he caught gatts by surprise as well, but that didn't last too terribly long. he was never in any serious danger during those battles, due to his skill & his over-sized sword. the 100 man battle was also less difficult than it appeared. the forrest did block gatts' LOS in some places, but it also meant that, given the setting, there were only so many angles that enemies could come at him, limiting the number of attackers at once, & their attack lines. also, the setting certainly helped against archers, for obvious reasons. plus, they WERE mercenaries, so their motivation wasn't nearly what gatts' was.
as for the apostles... gatts has only ever fought one at a time (right? i'm pretty sure i'd remember a multiple apostle fight...). if Idea REALLY wanted gatts dead, it could just send 2 or 3 of the bigger ones after him (or just very politely ask zodd to stop toying with gatts & get it over with). plus, it seems the godhand are rather tough... you'd think they could intervene directly. 4 of them against gatts at once, along with a bunch of obligatory spirits, zombies, undead warriors, demons, etc. could probably do the job. yes, gatts is one tough bastard, but he is, in the end, human. he could be killed. i'm pretty sure that gatts is still part of the plan of causality, it's just a subtle plan.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
>>>>>>>it could just send 2 or 3 of the bigger ones after him (or just very politely ask zodd to stop toying with gatts & get it over with). plus, it seems the godhand are rather tough... you'd think they could intervene directly.


(old school bsom style reply)
Idea doesn't "tell" anyone to do anything. Idea influences before "birth". There is no hierarchy or orders or subordination. Another thing, remember God Hand aren't physical beings, thus aren't technically "tough".
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
but they ARE tough, psionically speaking, & psionic strength can affect somebody with physical strength, a la gatts... well, that makes em difficult opponents.

&, as for Idea... i think there's enough evidence to assume he's got pretty hefty amount of influence over bloodlines, & if he can successfully manipulate bloodlines (if i stop making sense at this point, it's because my girlfriend is trying to distract me from my holy duty of being contrary on message boards by... uh nevermind) with a high degree of accuracy as he seems to do with griffith, it implies that he has other powers as well. we're not told that Idea's power is limited to that extent, merely that that's something that he can do. but my point, i think, is that he could "influence" many an apostle to attack gatts or any number of other things
um i'm going to finish posting this later.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Now Im torn. Idea "influences the lower level of human consciousness", yet God Hand have been seen at several sites of "human negativity" :

1) Volume 17, Conrad at the piles of plague-ridden bodies in the form of hundreds of thousands of Rats.

2) Slann at the gathering of the orgy in volume 18.

However, all of this could easily just be an era with reactions that were pre-determined. "by manipulating history, I paved the way for the times you would be born in" which infers that the above is true...However, for either argument (constantly influenced, or pre-determined) there isnt enough evidence to argue either concretely.

Or is there?
 
I think that the Causality is a "plan" that keeps changing.

For example, the Count went against it in volume 3.

Also, if Casca was supposed to give birth to the "new Griffith" from the beginning, how was she supposed to survive the Occultation?
(of course, we're not even sure that the Skull Knight rescuing Guts and Casca was an "unexpected event"... it was unexpected for Slan, Ubik and Conrad, but Void could know something they didn't... and maybe he was the only one who knew about Griffith's incarnation?)

Slan said that the Skull Knight's appearance could be "one of the possible destinies", so I guess that Causality isn't "_one_ path". The destination is what matters, not the way.

I think the Idea and the God Hands know what they're trying to achieve, but don't have _complete control_ over the events. They're constantly influencing them so that they eventually serve their "project".
Otherwise, what are the God Hands doing when they're not luring humans in becoming Apostles? They're supposed to "manipulate man's destiny" aren't they?

Another theory of mine would be that their number determinates their influence: maybe they needed to be 5 in order to "create" this "Falcon of Light dream" and to prepare the world for "the Messiah's arrival".

These are mere theories, of course... ^^;
 
this thought just struck me, but it may have been covered in a post somewhere else before but:

since Idea is created from the negative thoughts of humans, perhaps Griffith will create a kingdom so peaceful and so just that there will be no need for Idea any longer, thus destroying Idea and Griffith becoming like a God...

i dunno, just thought id share it...
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
ok, to complete my post from last night (that was a lengthydistraction), i basically agree with oliver, though i think the "falcon of light" could've been created by any of the godhands... i just think that they don't directly influence humanity's destiny that much because it's usually not required.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
one day i will make a full post, one when my girlfriend isn't around to distract me... it hasn't happened yet, but one day it will...
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Well, how about this:
Gatsu's birth is still a mystery. The tree with the dead people, who were they?Peasants? Not clear.
The slow acceptance by Skully. At first he didn't give a rats ass bout gatsu,but slowly he became sort of a champion.
And the unusual fondness of griffis towards this brute man called gatsu.
First let's see griffis. My theory is that griffis was never human in mind, but only femto dreaming. Griffis was great, but he wasn't real. Gatsu is a berserker. Maybe the beast within gastu attracts the evil sleeping withing griffis. Even God Hand like gatsu for a moment, yet nobody says he's important.
Is there more to him than just a man. I do think so. Nobody knows the true intention of idea, so maybe the true destiny assigned to gatsu is unrevealed for now. My guess is that he is the main player, even bigger than griffis. HAR HAR.
That'd be it.
 
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