How would you complete Guts' line in episode 287?

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
DoM said:
Maybe Guts just told him something like " She is ... a very important person to me" ; and then Roderick took it to "probably the most important to him"

Well yeah, it's possible.
 

Pistol

black heart with brown eyes
"She's my money maker!" and she's so out of sight!

(and... no one got the reference)

Judging by Farnese's reaction it was probably something like "my everything" (... <_< or at least I'd find that very cute)
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
zrexe said:
I was pretty sure the same idea was mentioned in the Berserk manga, but I just cannot remember offhand which part it came from.

Maybe unrelated (to Casca at least), but Godo does tell Guts, "You're a sword without a sheath," when he returns after two years to find Casca missing.

But... referring to Casca as his sheath... that's not Guts' style...

Pakman said:
There have been many examples of him resenting the fact that he has to protect her leading up to the beast manifested itself :chomp: on the tit.

Exactly when? From the time he realized the need for he himself to protect Casca, up until his assault of her, he feels the weight of her life on his sword, but I didn't notice any indication of resentment.

Pakman said:
At least up until SK told him there was a possible fix for her. Now he is trying to find a fix for her even though it might not be what she wants.

If that's the consensus on SK's meaning when he says, "What you want..." then I yield, but my feeling is that SK's reference is that Guts' desire for revenge may not be shared by Casca.
 

Syaoran

I want you to remember
Well disregarding Guts "style" I think he would have said something un-like himself or his answer wouldn't have been covered up

or maybe something like " She's everything to me"
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
I think Guts would have said, "She's my...responsibility." and I also believe that there still would of been a pause regardless of Farnese's own perception of the event.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
einherjar said:
I think you underestimate Guts' depth of feeling for Casca.

No, I have no doubt of the feelings Guts has on the inside for Casca, what I call into question is what he'd be willing to admit to to a near complete stranger like Roderick, as it is he hasn't even shared his past with the many new friends who have been traveling with him for awhile now, (though I think he eventually will) so something like she's my... responsibility is a truthful answer that matches the context and wording, as well as provides a pause to show that it's not an easy question for Guts.
 

einherjar

The Glorious Dead
Guts intestines said:
No, I have no doubt of the feelings Guts has on the inside for Casca, what I call into question is what he'd be willing to admit to to a near complete stranger like Roderick, as it is he hasn't even shared his past with the many new friends who have been traveling with him for awhile now, (though I think he eventually will) so something like she's my... responsibility is a truthful answer that matches the context and wording, as well as provides a pause to show that it's not an easy question for Guts.

Point taken. But would "responsibility" cause Farnese to lose control of her astral body?
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Probably not, except she assumed that he was going to say something more intimate about his relationship with Casca so this made her snap back into her body meaning she never heard what he said, remember?
 
X

Xem

Guest
This thread instantly reminded me of A Link to the Past for SNES. :serpico:

There's a part in the story where Link says "She's my..", referring to Zelda, and doesn't finish the sentence. For a long time people debated on how that sentence would be finished, the most disturbing being "sister!".

But alas, it was later revealed that the correct ending is "destiny." So that's my guess, "destiny." :carcus:
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
That's an interesting comparison, I never thought of A Link to the Past, I even forgot Link directly spoke in any of his games.
 
Hard to believe it's already been a year since they set sail.

Anyway, for the topic, I'd like to propose that the line is complete. I won't claim to be an expert on the series, but my own perception of Guts is that he isn't sure anymore himself. If I were to complete it myself it would simply be, "She is important to me," or more elegantly, "She is my fondest memory."
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
einherjar said:
If that's the consensus on SK's meaning when he says, "What you want..." then I yield, but my feeling is that SK's reference is that Guts' desire for revenge may not be shared by Casca.

There's no consensus.

Guts intestines said:
Probably not, except she assumed that he was going to say something more intimate about his relationship with Casca so this made her snap back into her body meaning she never heard what he said, remember?

And the reason she assumed what he was going to say is because it's been clear to anyone and everyone, friends and strangers, that he loves her. Which kind of disproves your earlier point about him not talking about his past to Roderick (not to mention that his feelings for Casca aren't the past).

Deci said:
This thread instantly reminded me of A Link to the Past for SNES. :serpico:

There's a part in the story where Link says "She's my..", referring to Zelda, and doesn't finish the sentence. For a long time people debated on how that sentence would be finished, the most disturbing being "sister!".

What are you talking about? I'm quite certain that Link never utters a single word in Zelda III.

nfries88 said:
Anyway, for the topic, I'd like to propose that the line is complete. I won't claim to be an expert on the series, but my own perception of Guts is that he isn't sure anymore himself. If I were to complete it myself it would simply be, "She is important to me," or more elegantly, "She is my fondest memory."

I don't know about that, he's been pretty demonstrative even recently I think (spending his days on the boat watching her and all that). Speaking of her as only a memory makes it sound like she's dead to me.
 

Scorpio

Courtesy of Grail's doodling.
Aazealh said:
What are you talking about? I'm quite certain that Link never utters a single word in Zelda III.

I just finished playing through the game a week ago, and he definitely does not say anything.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
Scorpio said:
I just finished playing through the game a week ago, and he definitely does not say anything.

Yeah, it's pretty much a staple of the series.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
Which kind of disproves your earlier point about him not talking about his past to Roderick (not to mention that his feelings for Casca aren't the past).

What do you mean? I only meant that he wouldn't go into the heavier details of Casca and his past, nor go so far as to say some heart warming speech about the nature of his feelings for her, I think he would of said something true about their relationship, just not something overly revealing, even though it's obvious to everyone how he truly feels.

Aazealh said:
What are you talking about? I'm quite certain that Link never utters a single word in Zelda III.

Huh, I knew I wasn't crazy, Link doesn't speak directly in any of the Zelda games.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
Guts intestines said:
What do you mean? I only meant that he wouldn't go into the heavier details of Casca and his past, nor go so far as to say some heart warming speech about the nature of his feelings for her, I think he would of said something true about their relationship, just not something overly revealing, even though it's obvious to everyone how he truly feels.

You said he'd just say she's his responsability, then justified it by telling einherjar that Guts wouldn't admit his feelings to Roderick. What I'm telling you is that since everyone has already guessed his feelings for her (which is what sparked Roderick's question in the first place, as it's honestly a bit obvious how he feels), there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy. :guts:

I think if he had indeed told Roderick that she was his responsability, it'd have implied more about his own feelings for her (fitly, maybe a change from love to responsability, like an old man taking care of a young child) than anything else.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
You said he'd just say she's his responsability, then justified it by telling einherjar that Guts wouldn't admit his feelings to Roderick. What I'm telling you is that since everyone has already guessed his feelings for her (which is what sparked Roderick's question in the first place, as it's honestly a bit obvious how he feels), there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy. :guts:

I think if he had indeed told Roderick that she was his responsability, it'd have implied more about his own feelings for her (fitly, maybe a change from love to responsability, like an old man taking care of a young child) than anything else.

You can't be too sure. This situation probably evokes a lot of feelings of pain for Guts especially to see her the way she is now. You say that because everyone knows it, that Guts would just come out and admit it, well in another situation that would bring up past pain Guts didn't really want to talk about it. I'm talking about that guy who recognized him as the raiding captain of the Hawks, all Guts said was forget it even though the guy expressly remembered it. In a situation like this Guts would tell the truth, (which is a direct move) just not the whole story. By saying she's my responsibility he atleast admits some type of connection to her, and it allows Roderick to think what he may from there. Plus, besides for just his feelings for her I think Guts feels obligated to her protect because he was unable to during the eclipse.
 

Aazealh

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Guts intestines said:
This situation probably evokes a lot of feelings of pain for Guts especially to see her the way she is now. You say that because everyone knows it, that Guts would just come out and admit it, well in another situation that would bring up past pain Guts didn't really want to talk about it.

That didn't seem to be the case in the episode in question. And at this point like I said it isn't admitting something as much as confirming what everybody knows. You talk about another situation in which Guts wouldn't want to talk about it, but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it.

Guts intestines said:
I'm talking about that guy who recognized him as the raiding captain of the Hawks, all Guts said was forget it even though the guy expressly remembered it.

It's Owen, and he was asking Guts whether Griffith was coming to Vritannis' rescue. He was in a hurry and didn't exactly have time to explain everything that had happened ever since the last time they saw each other (which is exactly what he told him), not to mention how he feels about Griffith. I'd say that situation is completely different and not really a good example to take.

Guts intestines said:
By saying she's my responsibility he atleast admits some type of connection to her, and it allows Roderick to think what he may from there. Plus, besides for just his feelings for her I think Guts feels obligated to her protect because he was unable to during the eclipse.

Oh come on, look at what you're saying. Admitting a connection? What for? They're travelling together and he's obviously very fond of her, how could they not be connected? He's the only one in the group that really knows who she is and why she's with them in the first place. There's no doubt they're connected and it's not what Roderick was asking about. He directly asked him if she was his woman. Now, Guts might have answered indirectly, we can't know, but there's no doubt as to what Roderick wanted to know or what his companions thought his answer would be (both Farnese and Schierke).

On a side note, I think we might yet get to see what he said sometime in the future. Roderick could be reminded of that moment, and we'd see the complete line, bringing light on the then current events. Just a thought I've had for a while.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
That didn't seem to be the case in the episode in question. And at this point like I said it isn't admitting something as much as confirming what everybody knows. You talk about another situation in which Guts wouldn't want to talk about it, but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it.

You contradicted yourself just by saying,"but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it", and that's just the thing, we really don't know how much of that pause was because Farnese didn't want to hear the answer, maybe Guts actually does pause before he answers, (which would show that its a difficult question for him) maybe something comes up and he doesn't answer as you said. You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca, for one he's not really the bleeding heart kind of character, and two, that relationship is complicated for many reasons.

Aazealh said:
He was in a hurry and didn't exactly have time to explain everything that had happened ever since the last time they saw each other (which is exactly what he told him), not to mention how he feels about Griffith. I'd say that situation is completely different

The part about him being in a hurry, is not the reason he didn't talk, its because he didn't want to talk about it. Guts as it is doesn't even like the phrase,"the Hawks" mentioned at all, so its pretty obvious how painful that is.

And you honestly believe with more time that Guts would have told him anything? The situation really isn't different because its all connected to the painful crap Guts has endured over the last ten volumes, and asking about Casca and Guts' relationship has to bring up painful memories its not like he has new pleasant ones to reminisce. If I'm not mistakened didn't Guts even say you have the wrong guy as well?

Aazealh said:
Oh come on, look at what you're saying. Admitting a connection? What for? They're travelling together and he's obviously very fond of her, how could they not be connected? He's the only one in the group that really knows who she is and why she's with them in the first place. There's no doubt they're connected and it's not what Roderick was asking about. He directly asked him if she was his woman. Now, Guts might have answered indirectly, we can't know, but there's no doubt as to what Roderick wanted to know or what his companions thought his answer would be (both Farnese and Schierke).

Well as I said, Guts as of now is not really going to admit (and an admission and a confirmation are basically the same) his feelings to really anyone, which I think is only the case because of the way Casca is now. And I think your exaggerating the obviousness of his connection to Casca because its not like he has had any true romantic moments with him, he's mostly shown his feelings for her by protecting to her, the only real time I can think of that actually dealt with their relationship by any of the other group members was when Farnese scorned Casca.


Aazealh said:
On a side note, I think we might yet get to see what he said sometime in the future. Roderick could be reminded of that moment, and we'd see the complete line, bringing light on the then current events. Just a thought I've had for a while.

I think when and if Casca recovers that that'll be the time when their relationship really is spotlighted.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
Guts intestines said:
You contradicted yourself just by saying,"but the fact is he did answer Roderick's question, even though we didn't get to see the end of his line, assuming he completed it"

No, I didn't. Whether he did complete his sentence or not is a different matter entirely, and it doesn't affect the rest of what I said. It's not related to what you were saying either.

Guts intestines said:
and that's just the thing, we really don't know how much of that pause was because Farnese didn't want to hear the answer

Actually, the way it's done, it's not meant to be a pause, just to indicate that we don't hear the end of the sentence. It's like a scene being cut before the big reveal in a movie, you know? If it had been a pause, it's quite likely there would have been suspension points (there weren't). The way things are timed, he could have been simply interrupted as Casca wandered and fell into the water. But then again, I don't favor that possibility much, seeing Schierke's reaction for example (as she could have very well heard the end of what he said herself before going to Farnese' side).

Guts intestines said:
You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca, for one he's not really the bleeding heart kind of character, and two, that relationship is complicated for many reasons.

Well I never said it's illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca. Quite the contrary in fact. Don't attribute things to me that I didn't say. As for the relationship being complicated, it doesn't change his evident feelings for her, nor the fact that he's usually blunt and honest when he speaks.

Guts intestines said:
The part about him being in a hurry, is not the reason he didn't talk, its because he didn't want to talk about it.

Sorry but I believe it did matter quite a bit, and I don't think you can really argue against it. He says so himself, and it was the case anyway.

Guts intestines said:
Guts as it is doesn't even like the phrase,"the Hawks" mentioned at all, so its pretty obvious how painful that is.

In fact, he got more upset when Owen mentioned Griffith directly (and the fact that he was coming their way) than just him have been part of the Band of the Falcon.

Guts intestines said:
And you honestly believe with more time that Guts would have told him anything?

Probably more than he did, yeah. He's not really reserved when it comes to Griffith. That doesn't mean he'd have told him about his whole life.

Guts intestines said:
The situation really isn't different because its all connected to the painful crap Guts has endured over the last ten volumes, and asking about Casca and Guts' relationship has to bring up painful memories its not like he has new pleasant ones to reminisce. If I'm not mistakened didn't Guts even say you have the wrong guy as well?

The context is quite different. The subject is different as well, and the way the conversations were started and conducted. Both topics being connected to his past doesn't make for much of a similarity in comparison to all the differences. Besides, Casca is the present for him, and his answer to Roderick was as spontaneous as the question itself.

And here's what Guts said when Owen told him he recognized him: "Leave it be, that was a long time ago. I'm rather busy right now." And when he asked him about Griffith's location: "I don't know. Why should I know..."

Guts intestines said:
Well as I said, Guts as of now is not really going to admit (and an admission and a confirmation are basically the same) his feelings to really anyone

No, I wouldn't say they the same, especially in the context of what you were saying (where it sounds like he's confessing something he kept secret, which isn't the case). And he basically did answer that question, or started answering it without hesitation (assuming he was interrupted, which isn't more probable than the alternative). I don't see what use there is in denying it. And I don't think you're in any position to affirm what Guts could have said or not. Which was my original point: that you can think he downplayed their relationship, no problem, but that there's nothing to back it up.

Guts intestines said:
And I think your exaggerating the obviousness of his connection to Casca

Hahaha, I'm definitely not exaggerating anything. The fact all the people he's travelling with have deduced she's his lover should be enough of a clue, don't you think? Not one of them doubts it. And there are tons of scenes where it's painstakingly obvious, even for example Serpico stopping him when he was getting angry at Zodd on Vritannis' docks.

Guts intestines said:
I think when and if Casca recovers that that'll be the time when their relationship really is spotlighted.

Well I was talking about that line specifically, not their relationship in general. Because it's highlighted in almost every episode of them we see.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
No, I didn't. Whether he did complete his sentence or not is a different matter entirely, and it doesn't affect the rest of what I said.

Yes you did. By saying he answered Roderick's question, then within the same sentence you said assuming he completed it (his line).

Aazealh said:
Actually, the way it's done, it's not meant to be a pause, just to indicate that we don't hear the end of the sentence. It's like a scene being cut before the big reveal in a movie, you know? If it had been a pause, it's quite likely there would have been suspension points (there weren't). The way things are timed, he could have been simply interrupted as Casca wandered and fell into the water. But then again, I don't favor that possibility much, seeing Schierke's reaction for example (as she could have very well heard the end of what he said herself before going to Farnese' side).

I understand that, however there is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Schierke heard much more than Farnese. Guts could of coughed, sneezed, anything that could have delayed his answer long enough so that Schierke finally went back into her body. There's also the fact that we didn't get any kind of reaction from Roderick that would support the assumption that he got an answer when the scene shifted back to Guts and Roderick.

Aazealh said:
Well I never said it's illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca. Quite the contrary in fact. Don't attribute things to me that I didn't say. As for the relationship being complicated, it doesn't change his evident feelings for her, nor the fact that he's usually blunt and honest when he speaks.

You didn't say it directly, but you did make it sound that way when you said,"there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy" You even supported your argument by saying that everyone in the group knows his feelings for her, so he would be direct. It was you who took shots at my theory, and I don't attribute anything to anyone, I use only what they give me. Anyway, your only analyzing half of Guts' personality when you say he is blunt and honest, you're right when it comes to Guts in battle or dealing with other people, but he is not always blunt and honest when it comes to his relationship with Casca. For instance, the scene when Judeau asked Guts why he doesn't take Casca with him, Guts first tries to beat around the bush, then really only relents when he says that she loves Griffith, definitely anything but blunt.

Aazealh said:
Sorry but I believe it did matter quite a bit, and I don't think you can really argue against it. He says so himself, and it was the case anyway.

I still don't understand why you choose to use this argument, Guts made not effort at all to answer that question even if he was in a hurry he could have choosen to answer it later. You also have to consider the fact that Guts' companions are still in the blank (except Puck) and they're with him all the time, so he has had plenty of opportunities to tell them what's up. All of this points to his inability to completely come to terms with his past, as well the beast becoming prominent and then there's Guts' decision to go off own his and leave Casca.

Aazealh said:
In fact, he got more upset when Owen mentioned Griffith directly (and the fact that he was coming their way) than just him have been part of the Band of the Falcon.

Of course he'd be more upset when Griffith was mentioned, he is one of the main perpetrators. That doesn't mean he isn't at all bothered by the word hawk/falcon being mentioned in reference to the band.

Aazealh said:
Probably more than he did, yeah. He's not really reserved when it comes to Griffith. That doesn't mean he'd have told him about his whole life.

This is untrue because as I said the group is nearly completely in the dark, even in regards to Griffith.

Aazealh said:
The context is quite different. The subject is different as well, and the way the conversations were started and conducted. Both topics being connected to his past doesn't make for much of a similarity in comparison to all the differences. Besides, Casca is the present for him, and his answer to Roderick was as spontaneous as the question itself.

Let's see, two strangers both ask Guts questions that require some introspection and/or reflection of his past involving the two most important people of his life: Griffith and Casca, that's sounds like enough similarities to me.
And again because the scene was left incomplete, there's no for sure way to know the spontaneity of the answer, at this point its supposition.

Aazealh said:
No, I wouldn't say they the same, especially in the context of what you were saying (where it sounds like he's confessing something he kept secret, which isn't the case). And he basically did answer that question, or started answering it without hesitation (assuming he was interrupted, which isn't more probable than the alternative). I don't see what use there is in denying it. And I don't think you're in any position to affirm what Guts could have said or not. Which was my original point: that you can think he downplayed their relationship, no problem, but that there's nothing to back it up.

When you admit something your confirming it, when you admit something you are also technically confessing it, though confession has a much more secretive conotation, but I'll drop this one, because I don't want this becoming some negative, endless semantics war.

Aazealh said:
Hahaha, I'm definitely not exaggerating anything. The fact all the people he's travelling with have deduced she's his lover should be enough of a clue, don't you think? Not one of them doubts it. And there are tons of scenes where it's painstakingly obvious, even for example Serpico reasoning him when he was getting angry at Zodd on Vritannis' docks.

All I am saying is that you make it sound like they show their affection constantly in front of the others, when truthfully all the others see is one-sided love from Guts and that only being from him protecting her and relying on Farnese to protect her. If it was that obvious to everyone why would Roderick even ask that question?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Guts intestines said:
Yes you did. By saying he answered Roderick's question, then within the same sentence you said assuming he completed it (his line).

I'm afraid you have some sort of comprehension problem here. In any case, whether he could finish his sentence or was interrupted, he did reply to Roderick. The intent was there. He didn't tell him to "forget it" or refuse to answer. You understand?

Guts intestines said:
I understand that, however there is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Schierke heard much more than Farnese.

Yet it's still more likely than whatever alternative you're proposing. If you look at the panels, you can clearly see that she comes to herself moments after Farnese. More than enough time to listen to what Guts has to say. In any case, I'm not saying there's only one possibility, just that what you proposed isn't more probable than the rest.

Guts intestines said:
Guts could of coughed, sneezed, anything that could have delayed his answer long enough so that Schierke finally went back into her body.

I'm sure you're aware of how ridiculous this sounds. You've just moved from a random assumption to far-fetched, baseless speculation.

Guts intestines said:
There's also the fact that we didn't get any kind of reaction from Roderick that would support the assumption that he got an answer when the scene shifted back to Guts and Roderick.

Actually we don't see Roderick's reaction, it cuts straight to him spotting Casca in danger and yelling. We can't derive anything from it one way or another.

Guts intestines said:
You didn't say it directly, but you did make it sound that way when you said,"there's no reason Guts wouldn't say something more direct. Especially since he's a relatively direct kind of guy" You even supported your argument by saying that everyone in the group knows his feelings for her, so he would be direct.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid you should re-read what you said. You're probably mistaken about what your own sentence means.

"You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca"

I cannot tell you it is illogical to think fact X. So you mean, it's logical to think so. Fact X is: Guts wouldn't have a problem expressing his feelings: he'd have no problem doing so. The result: It's logical to think Guts would express his feelings about Casca. Which is exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

Guts intestines said:
It was you who took shots at my theory, and I don't attribute anything to anyone, I use only what they give me.

Ah, so it's a theory now? This just gets better and better! Now if only you would use what people give you correctly, then we could go forward. =) And all I did was point out the flagrant flaw in what you assessed as if it was definitive in any way. I don't even think "responsability" is a bad proposition, but your argumentation to prove it's more likely than the rest just doesn't work.

Guts intestines said:
Anyway, your only analyzing half of Guts' personality when you say he is blunt and honest, you're right when it comes to Guts in battle or dealing with other people, but he is not always blunt and honest when it comes to his relationship with Casca.

Hahaha, and it's "Guts intestines" who tells me that. No offense, but I think my understanding of Guts' personality is superior to yours. What's your take, that Guts is too shy to admit he likes a girl? Maybe the reason he didn't get closer on the ship is because he was afraid of getting cooties? And speaking of contradictions, weren't you telling me earlier that he isn't a "bleeding heart" (was a bit out of nowhere by the way)? You need to make a choice.

Guts intestines said:
I still don't understand why you choose to use this argument, Guts made not effort at all to answer that question even if he was in a hurry he could have choosen to answer it later.

It wasn't a question. Owen had already recognized him, he didn't need a confirmation. The only question he asked was about Griffith's location, and he did answer it, telling him he didn't know. So you basically have no point here.

As for answering it later... What are you talking about? Answer it later when? They didn't meet up with Owen again since that time. The city was being invaded by monsters and they had to rush to the docks. I don't understand what you're talking about. Maybe you should re-read this part of the story, because I assure you there was no time, no occasion for them to talk at a subsequent time, and no need to anyway as Griffith arrived shortly after.

Guts intestines said:
You also have to consider the fact that Guts' companions are still in the blank (except Puck) and they're with him all the time, so he has had plenty of opportunities to tell them what's up.

Actually, not so much. They all know quite a bit about him and his life. Including about Griffith. For instance, Schierke and Ivalera saw him in Shet, remember? Then Schierke talked about it with Flora, and was present when Guts almost lost it on the beach after SK merely uttered the word "falcon". Plus she went inside his mind. And Farnese, Serpico, Azan and Isidro were at Albion and witnessed the incarnation. There's more to be said but I think you get the point.

Guts intestines said:
All of this points to his inability to completely come to terms with his past, as well the beast becoming prominent and then there's Guts' decision to go off own his and leave Casca.

You mean the decision he took in volume 14 and that he has since completely come back on and still deeply regrets? Because I don't think it's relevant here. Feels to me like you're just mixing everything together for no good reason. You might also want to remember that the Beast of Darkness has actually retired to a "sleep" state recently, so on the contrary, it's less prominent for now. Your point that he hasn't yet completely come to terms with his past isn't even wrong (though it's got nothing to do with the discussion), but your examples are clumsy IMHO. What's next, that time he and Casca had an argument in volume 5? I fail to see how any of it relates to his response to Owen in volume 30.

Guts intestines said:
Of course he'd be more upset when Griffith was mentioned, he is one of the main perpetrators. That doesn't mean he isn't at all bothered by the word hawk/falcon being mentioned in reference to the band.

Well, he didn't look upset when Owen talked about it. Unlike when Owen talked about Griffith. Just saying.

Guts intestines said:
This is untrue because as I said the group is nearly completely in the dark, even in regards to Griffith.

Stop stating things you can't back up with any sort of fact please. Since I've addressed this already, let me ask you something: do you know the difference between Guts' companions and Owen? Well, Owen knew Guts and Griffith in the old days. So you actually aren't making any point here.

Guts intestines said:
Let's see, two strangers both ask Guts questions that require some introspection and/or reflection of his past involving the two most important people of his life: Griffith and Casca, that's sounds like enough similarities to me.

Case 1: Someone Guts most likely vaguely knew of long ago but wasn't acquainted with remembers him and asks him about the location of his sworn enemy, thinking he's still a subordinate of that enemy (not being aware of the current state of affairs). They're in a city about to be destroyed, in a state of extreme danger and have to rush to the port to try to escape by sea. Guts briefly answers and leave with his friends.

Case 2: A man Guts hasn't known for too long but that's related to his friends, has been greatly helping him and talks to him as if he were some kind of leader asks him casually, on a peacecul day at sea, if the girl he's constantly looking after is his lover. That person isn't aware of anything past and has only witnessed the day to day activities since he joined the group. Guts answers but we don't see the end of his sentence. I guess the main similarity is that in both cases, Guts did reply. Other than that, I don't see much likeliness outside of gross simplifications ("a person talks to another and it involves a third individual").

Note that even the need for an introspection is debatable, as both subjects touched the present (in both cases referring to the present day Griffith and Casca) as much as the past (if not more).

Guts intestines said:
When you admit something your confirming it, when you admit something you are also technically confessing it, though confession has a much more secretive conotation, but I'll drop this one, because I don't want this becoming some negative, endless semantics war.

That's good, I appreciate that. Especially since "confirm" doesn't have the secretive connotation "admit" and "confess" carry, which was my point.

Guts intestines said:
All I am saying is that you make it sound like they show their affection constantly in front of the others, when truthfully all the others see is one-sided love from Guts and that only being from him protecting her and relying on Farnese to protect her. If it was that obvious to everyone why would Roderick even ask that question?

Hahaha, what? I never mentioned anything about them showing their affection toward each other. I mean, Casca's not really friendly to him at the moment, as you must know. I don't know where you got that from. However, Guts does show his care and affection constantly, and that's what the others have clearly seen over and over again. That's why the girls are depressed when it comes to their feelings about him. He's all about her, in his every move and decision. Roderick hadn't been with the group for very long when he asked Guts about it (although he clearly wasn't a stranger either, unlike what you've been saying), which can explain the question, yet he still asked if she was his girl straight away. So even in that short time, he had guessed what their relationship was, or at least what Guts' feelings for her were. And the people who've been travelling with Guts for long (Farnese and Schierke in this case, but the others are the same anyway) had zero doubt about what his answer would be. Because they knew it to begin with.

You know, I think this is a good opportunity right here to stop the discussion from reaching a uselessly large mass, so I'll tell you again what my point was originally: that your justification of why it'd be more likely for Guts to answer like you think he would rather than in a more direct way is flawed. At best we can say that all possibilities are equally plausible. No need to take it farther than that.
 

Guts intestines

Yer breath is bad... It'll go away with yer head
Aazealh said:
I'm afraid you have some sort of comprehension problem here. In any case, whether he could finish his sentence or was interrupted, he did reply to Roderick. The intent was there. He didn't tell him to "forget it" or refuse to answer. You understand?

I'll make this simple, it is not one hundred percent proven that he finished his sentence, intent or not we do not know what happened.

Aazealh said:
Yet it's still more likely than whatever alternative you're proposing. If you look at the panels, you can clearly see that she comes to herself moments after Farnese. More than enough time to listen to what Guts has to say. In any case, I'm not saying there's only one possibility, just that what you proposed isn't more probable than the rest.

Likely or not, you speak as if its fact.

Aazealh said:
I'm sure you're aware of how ridiculous this sounds. You've just moved from a random assumption to far-fetched, baseless speculation.

The point is we don't know if he said anything more in front of Schierke, obviously it what meant to sound ridiculous just to show how easily the sentence could have been interrupted.

Aazealh said:
Actually we don't see Roderick's reaction, it cuts straight to him spotting Casca in danger and yelling. We can't derive anything from it one way or another.

We can only use what Miura gives us, which is why I agree when you said, "We can't derive anything from it one way or another", however you were the one who took a shot at what I was saying, so maybe you should think about what you said.

Aazealh said:
I'm sorry but I'm afraid you should re-read what you said. You're probably mistaken about what your own sentence means.
"You can't tell me its illogical to think that Guts wouldn't have a problem possibly expressing his feelings about Casca"

The only one mistaken about my meaning is you, obviously when you say to someone that their reasoning is flawed (which is what you said in your first reply to me) your saying that what they think is illogical. I said that I thought he'd say that she's my... responsibility because I don't believe Guts would express his feelings more openly with someone like Roderick. I know very well what your saying, and to me it makes much more sense that Guts wouldn't say something like "she's the love of my life" or anything else that requires him delving into their relationship, nor could he honestly right now say that she is his woman.


Aazealh said:
Ah, so it's a theory now? This just gets better and better! Now if only you would use what people give you correctly, then we could go forward. =) And all I did was point out the flagrant flaw in what you assessed as if it was definitive in any way. I don't even think "responsability" is a bad proposition, but your argumentation to prove it's more likely than the rest just doesn't work.

I'm loving your tone, you must of had a big smile on your face as you finished this post. As I said your the one who apparently doesn't know what people give you nor do you know what you said when you attacked my reasoning in the first place. I never said my conclusion was better than anyone else's all nor did I try to prove it was, all I did was defend it, first from einherjar, then from you.


Aazealh said:
Hahaha, and it's "Guts intestines" who tells me that. No offense, but I think my understanding of Guts' personality is superior to yours. What's your take, that Guts is too shy to admit he likes a girl? Maybe the reason he didn't get closer on the ship is because he was afraid of getting cooties? And speaking of contradictions, weren't you telling me earlier that he isn't a "bleeding heart" (was a bit out of nowhere by the way)? You need to make a choice.

Your arrogance is really disgusting, do you take yourself to be a scholar of Berserk? Maybe you can write the rest in place of Miura. It has nothing to do with shyness, more like the fact that its none of Roderick's business, compounded by the fact that their relationship as of now is nonexistent. And by me saying that he wouldn't spill his guts (no pun intended) about his feelings for Casca supports him not being a bleeding heart, I made my choice you just don't see it.

Aazealh said:
It wasn't a question. Owen had already recognized him, he didn't need a confirmation. The only question he asked was about Griffith's location, and he did answer it, telling him he didn't know. So you basically have no point here.

No, my point in bringing that up was that he doesn't like speaking about things from his past, be it Griffith or Casca. You argue that those are too different to compare, but I'm saying that because of the way Casca is now, anything asked about her is too painful for him to answer in a direct fashion by saying something like she's my lover or woman, and I find it out of character for him to say he loves her to Roderick when he has yet to say it to her.

Aazealh said:
As for answering it later... What are you talking about? Answer it later when? They didn't meet up with Owen again since that time. The city was being invaded by monsters and they had to rush to the docks. I don't understand what you're talking about. Maybe you should re-read this part of the story, because I assure you there was no time, no occasion for them to talk at a subsequent time, and no need to anyway as Griffith arrived shortly after.
Again you don't comprehend what I'm saying. Guts made no effort to even say, "If I ever see you again then we can discuss and I'll answer your question", your arguing that had he had the time he would of answered his question, I'm saying he wouldn't have, and that he was avoiding it because again he doesn't like talking about his past.

Aazealh said:
Actually, not so much. They all know quite a bit about him and his life. Including about Griffith. For instance, Schierke and Ivalera saw him in Shet, remember? Then Schierke talked about it with Flora, and was present when Guts almost lost it on the beach after SK merely uttered the word "falcon". Plus she went inside his mind. And Farnese, Serpico, Azan and Isidro were at Albion and witnessed the incarnation. There's more to be said but I think you get the point.

So you argue my point by telling me (which I already knew) what Schierke and Flora know, when my point was that they don't know the intimate details of Griffith and Guts past. All you just told me is stuff they know about Griffith as the falcon of Light, not in regards to Guts' past with him within the Hawks Basically, everything those two know comes from what they could learn by being in touch with the prophecy and by seeing Guts' brand. The others (Isidro, Farnese, Serpico) don't know really anything about Griffith in relation to Guts. Remember when Isidro asked Guts what mercenary band he came from and Guts said that he didn't remember, and the guy that Isidro had refered to was in fact Guts. He lied because he doesn't want to talk about it. As it stands I don't think the others (besides Schierke and Puck) even know half of the details to what Guts' is doing, I think most of them just believe his only mission is to fix Casca.

Aazealh said:
You mean the decision he took in volume 14 and that he has since completely come back on and still deeply regrets? Because I don't think it's relevant here. Feels to me like you're just mixing everything together for no good reason. You might also want to remember that the Beast of Darkness has actually retired to a "sleep" state recently, so on the contrary, it's less prominent for now. Your point that he hasn't yet completely come to terms with his past isn't even wrong (though it's got nothing to do with the discussion), but your examples are clumsy IMHO. What's next, that time he and Casca had an argument in volume 5? I fail to see how any of it relates to his response to Owen in volume 30.

Again you miss the point. Guts has many issues with his past even prior to the eclipse, now the part of his painful past is mostly due to the eclipse. I brought up the fact that he chose to leave Casca because he did that in order to not be reminded of the events of the eclipse, which would be hard to do if he sees her in the state that she's in, period. Since this theme of Guts dealing with the pains of his past runs through all of Berserk it doesn't matter what volume it occured in because its a recurring theme. I can go even further back to Gambino and Donovan, if you'd like. You say you don't see how this relates to Owen but didn't Owen say he recognized him from his past with the Hawks and he assumed Guts and Griffith still were in contact with each other. I said that Guts wouldn't want to answer his questions because he doesn't like being reminded of his past.

What I meant by the beast being prominent is that before the eclipse we never saw the anthropomorphic dog form of the beast, whereas now he has taken a shape and his been more involved with the story because of Guts' rage and hatred that been building, especially towards Griffith. He did go into a sleep state but he also forshadowed coming back with ill intentions, so yeah read what you said he's less prominent for now.

Aazealh said:
Well, he didn't look upset when Owen talked about it. Unlike when Owen talked about Griffith. Just saying.

It was the point of appearing upset, the point was he avoided the question, and only said it was a long time ago
which shows he wasn't comfortable with the question.

Aazealh said:
Stop stating things you can't back up with any sort of fact please. Since I've addressed this already, let me ask you something: do you know the difference between Guts' companions and Owen? Well, Owen knew Guts and Griffith in the old days. So you actually aren't making any point here.

Again you contradicted yourself. According to you the others know plenty even about Griffith. Before you attack others you should really read what you said. Oh and the point I was making was that if Guts wouldn't tell his companions why would he tell Owen anything. You must think he would have by using the excuse about how much time he had.

Aazealh said:
Note that even the need for an introspection is debatable, as both subjects touched the present (in both cases referring to the present day Griffith and Casca) as much as the past (if not more).

I don't know don't you think by now Guts has associated Griffith to the events of the past, his whole reason for trying to kill him is for retribution. Which is why its not debatable at all, Guts present is completely shaped off of his past. He bears the brand from his past, the woman he loves has been mentally destroyed from their past, his whole mission in life right now is based off of his past, Owen and Roderick both asked questions that involve the past. Owen asked him something based off of seeing him as the raiding captain for the Hawks (past) which is why he assumed Guts would know something about Griffith. Indeed, Roderick did ask him what Casca is (present) to him, however all of Guts' positive thoughts (which he would base his answer off of) are from the past with Casca. If he was to base his true feelings off only what's been happening now, his response would be a lot different. His most recent memories with her are of the eclipse, the state she's in, as well as her distrust of him. That's why as she is I don't think Guts would be able to quite say all of what he feels about her to the newcomer. Guts doesn't love Casca for the who she is now, he loves her for the woman that she was.

Aazealh said:
That's good, I appreciate that. Especially since "confirm" doesn't have the secretive connotation "admit" and "confess" carry, which was my point.

Um yeah, that's why within my post I clearly said they have different conotations hell you used the phrase secretive conotation which is what I just said, however they all technically mean to tell something when it all boils down to it.

Aazealh said:
Hahaha, what? I never mentioned anything about them showing their affection toward each other. I mean, Casca's not really friendly to him at the moment, as you must know. I don't know where you got that from. However, Guts does show his care and affection constantly, and that's what the others have clearly seen over and over again. That's why the girls are depressed when it comes to their feelings about him. He's all about her, in his every move and decision. Roderick hadn't been with the group for very long when he asked Guts about it (although he clearly wasn't a stranger either, unlike what you've been saying), which can explain the question, yet he still asked if she was his girl straight away. So even in that short time, he had guessed what their relationship was, or at least what Guts' feelings for her were. And the people who've been travelling with Guts for long (Farnese and Schierke in this case, but the others are the same anyway) had zero doubt about what his answer would be. Because they knew it to begin with.

I meant that you overplay the obviousness of their connection in the eyes of everyone else, of course they know Guts has feelings for her, however Casca in her current state doesn't reciprocate those feelings. So I think they may see this as a much more complicated thing, so like I said the way you described it it sounded like they were openly displaying affection towards one another, the only proof of a connection is Guts protecting her and that she was one of the few who traveled with him from the beginning.

Aazealh said:
You know, I think this is a good opportunity right here to stop the discussion from reaching a uselessly large mass, so I'll tell you again what my point was originally: that your justification of why it'd be more likely for Guts to answer like you think he would rather than in a more direct way is flawed. At best we can say that all possibilities are equally plausible. No need to take it farther than that.

:ganishka: Now you know the average person wouldn't stop the discussion after you just basically blasted me. Its like you left me bleeding to death in the battlefield, and now you wish to stop and sign the peace treaty. But if you wish to stop it now, well by all means :serpico: we've had an equal number of replies to one another. But if you'd like to continue that's fine as well. I think from now on let's stay away from any kind of personal attacks, (though you might be pissed now) even though I'll admit after I read your response I was a little angry, but I'm good now, we're both old enough to discuss this peacefully, and I'm cool with you if your cool with me.

P.S: My name sounds pretty stupid, but I meant it to be Guts' intestines (lame pun I know), I was unable to put the apostrophe.
 
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