Idea's Downfall

[DarkBlademaster]

Well I have been thinking of this for a while, and thinking about balence in berserk. The Idea of Evil, is made completely of hate, sorrow, desire... all of mans negative feelings. Just look at the name. Idea of Evil. What about the good? One cannot live without the other. Just think about the Yin-Yang.

The dots could represent guts and griff, but thats kind of off subject right now. I might get back to that in another thread. Anyways, Evil cannot live alone. There must be some counterpart to balence the equation (not trying to imitate the matrix in any way), or else the idea will collapes on itself and weave a fate that leads to its own destruction. Your thoughts?

 

[Walter]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Nah...

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=2799

8)

 

[DarkBlademaster]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Damn that hurts... another idea of mine shattered :'(.

 

[atomsk]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Well, you have to consider that most of man's desires are evil. Mankind does have some good desires, and to reflect those, Idea also has some good desires. For instance, Griffith returning to save Midland, who do you think set that up? ;)

 

[Whoa Frank]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Umm... big problem with that. Idea is not made of the conciousness of only Midland-ers. It's made of EVERYONE including Kusharn, so there would be no reason for Idea to cause this to happen. This is Griffith's will rather than Ideas, I think.

 

[atomsk]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Umm... big problem with that. Idea is not made of the conciousness of only Midland-ers. It's made of EVERYONE including Kusharn, so there would be no reason for Idea to cause this to happen. This is Griffith's will rather than Ideas, I think.

Good point, but considering that 1,000 years ago, Gaiseric's empire (aka Midland) was really the be all end all, we can assume that Idea probably also considers Midland to be the most important nation.

 

[Walter]

Re:Ideas Downfall

Umm... big problem with that. Idea is not made of the conciousness of only Midland-ers. It's made of EVERYONE including Kusharn, so there would be no reason for Idea to cause this to happen. This is Griffith's will rather than Ideas, I think.

The Kushans got the short end of the stick in the cosmic ball game. A popular citizen of Midland was chosen as the newest God Hand. Perhaps the Kushan empire could have used their funds for publicity more in the lower regions of The Abyss, because it seems their cries for candidacy in God Hand went unheard.

You snooze, you lose.

In all seriousness though, aren't the Kushans having their heyday right now? Isn't the seizing of Midland a good enough wish, granted by God?

If you're a greedy Kushan fan and want even MORE, well, I'd say most of us forsee the fall of Griffith's future empire. It isn't that wacky of a speculation. And when it happens, perhaps that will be your fabled "Idea's gift to the Kushans". It's god for christsake, it's got everything figured out.

One Dream at a time, ye nation-states, one Dream at a time.

 

[stifler]

Re: Ideas Downfall

In one other post I already proposed that the Idea of Good exists, not as an entity, but as an actual idea, the fact that people actually believe in the goodness of God, that ideal, perfect, loving God IS the Idea of Good, but it is only an idea....hehe

But the shape of Idea of Evil is very symbolic, i'm sure all have noticed that it resembles a heart, right?

 

[Alucard]

As far as we know there is only one Idea/God. If there were a "good" then would it not have revealed itself by now? The Idea stated humans wanted a reason for being so it was created. It was created because nothing was filling that void before meaning if there was a good god it wouldn't follow western ideology. If it is based in Eastern theology it should have said myself and my opposite or mirror version were created from everyones conciousness. The best evidence to support only the idea existing is that there is only hell and no heaven. Good go to one place bad to another. It only makes sense. Grifith himself states about the vortex "It's where everyone goes.". Further speculation about this subject is pointless because there is no EVIDENCE to the contrary.

Continued speculation about the shape of the Idea should be in it's own thread not in one about the Idea's downfall.

 

[Sparnage]

As far as we know there is only one Idea/God.  If there were a "good" then would it not have revealed itself by now? 

Evil is indeed the true power of the Berserk world, but there is still a reasonable amount of good people still. There has to be some kind of good positive power in the world, even if it is inferior.

 

[stifler]

Did you actually read what I said? I never said there is a lump of flesh(entity) that is the Idea of Good, I said that there are common people in the Berserk world that believe that God will offer salvation, and that belief (not the Idea, but idea - lowercase i) is the counter to Idea of Evil.

Simplification:
Idea of Evil: Actually exists (one can touch/see)
Idea of Good: Belief in goodness (CAN'T touch/see)

Get it now?

 

[Aazealh]

There has to be some kind of good positive power in the world, even if it is inferior.

The 4 Elemental Kings anyone?

I said that there are common people in the Berserk world that believe that God will offer salvation, and that belief (not the Idea, but idea - lowercase i) is the counter to Idea of Evil.

I'm not sure there is relevance in confronting the platonic definition of "Idea" with the common use of the word in that particular context.

 

[stifler]

It's just that logically if there is no balance between two forces (of any kind) one always wins, so in order for there to be a balance there has to be 2 forces not 1. If there was only evil, everyone would be evil, however people have hope and that hope is what counters the evil.

And that hope is VERY important, because even in our world, if you do not have hope you become suicidal. That's all I meant, there is no actual entity that looks out for people's best interests in Berserk, there is only the hope in that entity...
K, I'm done with this topic...

 

[darkbane]

It's just that logically if there is no balance between two forces (of any kind) one always wins, so in order for there to be a balance there has to be 2 forces not 1. If there was only evil, everyone would be evil, however people have hope and that hope is what counters the evil.

And that hope is VERY important, because even in our world, if you do not have hope you become suicidal. That's all I meant, there is no actual entity that looks out for people's best interests in Berserk, there is only the hope in that entity...
K, I'm done with this topic...

Our own world is quite different, but I think the premise in Berserk universe was that there was in fact no balance, that the inherent thoughts/feelings/desires of the people gave birth to the Idea. The blind white sheep want to be opressed and controlled, deep down. This has nothing to do with people being evil, or suicidal, or whatnot; it's a statement about the mass subconsciousness.

Lack of balance does not decide the victor - the struggle against all odds (and going against a prevalent evil God is shitty odds indeed) is what makes Berserk appealing, I think. If we had a good prevalent force (the hopes of all the poeple, you said, and I disagree - I will offer an alternative later) in this universe, then it wouldn't be Berserk, it would be Lodoss War.

I don't think people's hopes for salvation count for anything in Berserk - look at what their hopes brought them to at the mock eclipse. The only thing that amounts to anything is people like Guts who struggle against their guiding fate, making their own conscious decisions. Because there have not been many of these forces in Berserk, the universe appears rather dark - and that's how it should be! ;D

 

[Sparnage]

The 4 Elemental Kings anyone?

According to Walter the 4 elemental kings are merely astral projections of the 4 elements to the natural world, not conscious but simply tools that respond to emotion and dedication of spirit.
I guess they could be the only form of good in the world, but if I'm not mistaken they did essentially give birth to the Idea of evil.

 

[Aazealh]

According to Walter the 4 elemental kings are merely astral projections of the 4 elements to the natural world, not conscious but simply tools that respond to emotion and dedication of spirit.
I guess they could be the only form of good in the world, but if I'm not mistaken they did essentially give birth to the Idea of evil.

As far as I know, that's pretty much only guesses (especially the Idea part). They're astral beings, governing over the 4 elements (encyclopedia ;)), not simple projections, and Schierke prayed so they would grant her power to protect people from evil, I don't think the opposite would work. That's involves consciousness IMHO.

 

[Sparnage]

As far as I know, that's pretty much only guesses (especially the Idea part). They're astral beings, governing over the 4 elements (encyclopedia ;)), not simple projections, and Schierke prayed so they would grant her power to protect people from evil, I don't think the opposite would work. That's involves consciousness IMHO.

Fair enough but who knows, in the future we might come across evil magic users.

 

[Aazealh]

Fair enough but who knows, in the future we might come across evil magic users.

Yeah, Ganishka is an example, only he doesn't seem to call to them (woudn't make much sense actually). It'll actually be interesting to learn about that, which I hope we will do once Guts' band reaches Elfhelm.

 

[Herald of Yama]

Idea has moved past the point of the demiurge; its thoughts and feelings are no longer wholly dependant upon the subconcious will of humanity. It thinks, it feels, it acts out what it was designed to do, but it does things its own way now.