If the God Hand was killed

If the 5 God Hand members were killed, would Guts' and Casca's brands disappear? Or better yet, what if Idea was killed (most likely impossible). Or are Guts and Casca basically going to "hell" when they die no matter what? I don't think there is an answer to this but I was thinking maybe if the one who branded you dies then you're free of the curse. Or maybe it would have to be all 5 God Hand and Idea. We wouldn't really know if that's true because it seems everyone who has ever been branded has died immediately. So even if Guts and Casca live long enough to die of old age, do you think they're screwed no matter what?
 
Brand of Sacrifice said:
If the 5 God Hand members were killed, would Guts' and Casca's brands disappear?
It's impossible to know.

Brand of Sacrifice said:
Or better yet, what if Idea was killed (most likely impossible).
I don't think you can apply the concept of death to the Idea of Evil. I'd like to think that it's so abstract, powerful, and mysterious that death cannot limit it. I do believe that it's influence can be limited, as for how, I don't know.

Brand of Sacrifice said:
I don't think there is an answer to this but I was thinking maybe if the one who branded you dies then you're free of the curse. Or maybe it would have to be all 5 God Hand and Idea. We wouldn't really know if that's true because it seems everyone who has ever been branded has died immediately. So even if Guts and Casca live long enough to die of old age, do you think they're screwed no matter what?
Again, we cannot know until we have further knowledge of how the brand actually works, along with some more information on the God Hand and Idea. As for your last question, I can't imagine an ending like that. The entire series is Guts struggling against the Law of Causality, so it'd be pretty silly for the God Hand to have the last laugh. :p
 
Brand of Sacrifice said:
If the 5 God Hand members were killed, would Guts' and Casca's brands disappear? Or better yet, what if Idea was killed (most likely impossible). Or are Guts and Casca basically going to "hell" when they die no matter what? I don't think there is an answer to this but I was thinking maybe if the one who branded you dies then you're free of the curse. Or maybe it would have to be all 5 God Hand and Idea. We wouldn't really know if that's true because it seems everyone who has ever been branded has died immediately. So even if Guts and Casca live long enough to die of old age, do you think they're screwed no matter what?
I'm pretty sure that all souls end up in the so-called "hell" regardless of whether or not they were branded or killed by Apostles. Theoretically, they could survive together and live a ripe old age if they stayed out of trouble and kept the seals renewed on their Brands. I suspect some supreme act might undo the Brands but it remains to be seen what that is. Somehow, I suspect it's not as simple as killing the entire God Hand.
 
I don't think they're damned to hell per se, I see it more of a link to the spiritual world, as an offering to the God Hand /apostles. I think Guts' role as the "struggler" , the fish that tries to swim against the current of fate, is still open - maybe he can claim his own destiny. We've seen him overcome his own humanity and nearly impossible feats ( with the aid of magic and what not).

I don't see the "idea of evil" or the apostles as "god/satan" or demons. Its hard to explain, but I look at it more at a - they exist because of the collective subconcious , they're manifestations of what humanity has dreamed up, or had nightmares about. As J.R.R Tolkien used to say - you have to look at fantasy under its own rules.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
I'm pretty sure that all souls end up in the so-called "hell" regardless of whether or not they were branded or killed by Apostles.
Sankari said:
I don't think they're damned to hell per se, I see it more of a link to the spiritual world, as an offering to the God Hand /apostles.
This exact topic was covered recently in this thread: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14304.msg228763#msg228763
 
Walter said:
This exact topic was covered recently in this thread: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14304.msg228763#msg228763
Sorry then, I didn't see that before. Plus I read a pretty bad portuguese edition - lots of text weren't that accurate. Thats why I'm trying to purchase the new ones from Dark Horse
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Sankari said:
I don't think they're damned to hell per se, I see it more of a link to the spiritual world, as an offering to the God Hand /apostles.
The Brand is a curse, let there be no mistake about this. And it does damn them to hell.

Sankari said:
I think Guts' role as the "struggler" , the fish that tries to swim against the current of fate, is still open - maybe he can claim his own destiny. We've seen him overcome his own humanity and nearly impossible feats ( with the aid of magic and what not).
That's not really how that analogy goes. Slan comments during the Eclipse that the Skull Knight is like a fish swimming against the current of Causality, but you have to differentiate "causality" from "fate" here.

Sankari said:
I don't see the "idea of evil" or the apostles as "god/satan" or demons. Its hard to explain, but I look at it more at a - they exist because of the collective subconcious , they're manifestations of what humanity has dreamed up, or had nightmares about. As J.R.R Tolkien used to say - you have to look at fantasy under its own rules.
You're correct in that the Idea of Evil has nothing to do with "Satan". However, it's not the manifestation of a nightmare either, it was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness in order to provide humans with reasons for their sorry lives.
 
Walter said:
This exact topic was covered recently in this thread: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14304.msg228763#msg228763
Gah, I need to reread the series again...it just really rubs me the wrong way to think that the women Wyald raped and murdered along with Vargas and the old Band of the Falcon are suffering in Hell right now just for being victims. At least if all souls were going to the same place, that would mean that would mean that Heaven and Hell was two sides of the same coin. Geez.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
it just really rubs me the wrong way to think that the women Wyald raped and murdered along with Vargas and the old Band of the Falcon are suffering in Hell right now just for being victims.
Nothing says that the poor people killed by Wyald ended up in the Vortex of Souls. Vargas did because he had let himself be consumed by his desire for revenge and other such "bad" emotions, even though he did show some kindness to Guts and Puck. In the end, his overall life had leaned that way. As for the Band of the Falcon, it's because of the Brand. That being said, these are people who earned their living by killing others, so they might have ended there regardless.

Red Dingo said:
At least if all souls were going to the same place, that would mean that would mean that Heaven and Hell was two sides of the same coin. Geez.
There is one great ocean of souls (where they all go), among which there seems to be specific regions. The one we are familiar with is the Vortex of Souls, which is akin to hell. Presumably, there is at least another one, calmer, which would be similar to heaven.
 
Aazealh said:
Nothing says that the poor people killed by Wyald ended up in the Vortex of Souls. Vargas did because he had let himself be consumed by his desire for revenge and other such "bad" emotions, even though he did show some kindness to Guts and Puck. In the end, his overall life had leaned that way. As for the Band of the Falcon, it's because of the Brand. That being said, these are people who earned their living by killing others, so they might have ended there regardless.

There is one great ocean of souls (where they all go), among which there seems to be specific regions. The one we are familiar with is the Vortex of Souls, which is akin to hell. Presumably, there is at least another one, calmer, which would be similar to heaven.
I don't know, I figure the reality that Miura would opt for is the one that sucks as much for innocent bystanders in death as it did in life. I'm just reminded of the woman who was raped and murdered by Wyald after helping the Hawks. When Wyald's body reverted to human form, we saw her face amongst various souls draining from the physical plain. It gave me the impression that she was heading for wherever the evil in Wyald's body was heading.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
I'm just reminded of the woman who was raped and murdered by Wyald after helping the Hawks. When Wyald's body reverted to human form, we saw her face amongst various souls draining from the physical plain. It gave me the impression that she was heading for wherever the evil in Wyald's body was heading.
I don't think we see her in there. There's only one female figure that's somewhat human-looking in there, and for the little we see, she doesn't really look like her (specifically, her ears are very different).
 
Aazealh said:
I don't think we see her in there. There's only one female figure that's somewhat human-looking in there, and for the little we see, she doesn't really look like her (specifically, her ears are very different).
The facial structure and hair shape is the same. There's a difference in ear shape but I figure that was just spectral distortion.



I'd rather hope that I'm wrong but from what we've seen, it looks as though the victims of Apostles are condemned to hell as well. Slan's comment about the fate of "those related to evil" also suggests that to me.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
For things like this, I tend to think if we were supposed to recognize her, then it would have been made more obvious.
 
Walter said:
For things like this, I tend to think if we were supposed to recognize her, then it would have been made more obvious.
She was centered in the middle of the panel amongst other female shapes. That's pretty damn obvious for an unnamed character. It's pretty similar for poor Hanna in the Troll Den.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
She was centered in the middle of the panel amongst other female shapes. That's pretty damn obvious for an unnamed character.
It's inconclusive, but yeah, you might have a point here. While I don't think the resemblance is a slam dunk, what swayed me was that she's the only semi-recognizable face among the mass. The rest looks quite monstrous and unidentifiable. I have to imagine that was done for a reason, and like you said, placed center stage for the viewer.
 
Walter said:
It's inconclusive, but yeah, you might have a point here. While I don't think the resemblance is a slam dunk, what swayed me was that she's the only semi-recognizable face among the mass. The rest looks quite monstrous and unidentifiable. I have to imagine that was done for a reason, and like you said, placed center stage for the viewer.
Of course, assuming that it was her and the rest of the forms were the souls of Wyald's victims, that wouldn't mean they end up in hell him. Now that I think about it, they could just be how the Vortex collects the bodies of dead Apostles.

We know there's strings of Causality that tie the world of Berserk together and guides the course of events. This is just a hypothesis but perhaps the strength of such strings between two entities is proportional to how directly and drastically they affect one another. Given how drastically and directly an Apostle affects the lives of its victims, their souls would have the strongest threads connecting them to the life of the Apostle. When an Apostle dies, the Vortex reverses the polarity of those causal threads to turn the victim's souls into chains that drag the Apostle's soul to hell.

Or perhaps not. I'm pretty convinced that Heaven just does not exist in Berserk's cosmos.
 

Walter

Administrator
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Red Dingo said:
We know there's strings of Causality that tie the world of Berserk together and guides the course of events. This is just a hypothesis but perhaps the strength of such strings between two entities is proportional to how directly and drastically they affect one another. Given how drastically and directly an Apostle affects the lives of its victims, their souls would have the strongest threads connecting them to the life of the Apostle. When an Apostle dies, the Vortex reverses the polarity of those causal threads to turn the victim's souls into chains that drag the Apostle's soul to hell.
It's a neat idea, but it's enough to say that in death, an apostle's soul can be dragged down by those whose lives they destroyed.

Red Dingo said:
Or perhaps not. I'm pretty convinced that Heaven just does not exist in Berserk's cosmos.
Depends on what you envision as "heaven." There does appear to be an alternative to "hell." Flora says that in the afterlife people are divided according to their karma into regions that could be called heaven or hell.
 
Walter said:
It's a neat idea, but it's enough to say that in death, an apostle's soul can be dragged down by those whose lives they destroyed.
I like to figure out the mechanism behind the phenomena. Why would would souls of their victims drag an Apostle's soul down? Because those souls were the most affected by that Apostle's actions and provide the strongest link between the Vortex and the Apostle.

Depends on what you envision as "heaven." There does appear to be an alternative to "hell." Flora says that in the afterlife people are divided according to their karma into regions that could be called heaven or hell.
That's a bit more comforting although I can't imagine heaven being anything more than a temporary reprieve before the souls go to wherever is next.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
I like to figure out the mechanism behind the phenomena. Why would would souls of their victims drag an Apostle's soul down? Because those souls were the most affected by that Apostle's actions and provide the strongest link between the Vortex and the Apostle.
I dunno, I think you're going a bit off script by attempting to detail it in this way, beyond what the text supports.

That's a bit more comforting although I can't imagine heaven being anything more than a temporary reprieve before the souls go to wherever is next.
That's not the implication of what she says, unless you think the same of the vortex.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Red Dingo said:
Speculation.
Of course, I'm just saying that you're going too far for me to feel comfortable agreeing with it.

It's all going into somewhere ain't it?
The vortex? Not all souls necessarily end up there. How did we end up in a circular argument?
 
Don't mean to derail the thread, but in the lost episode the IoE explains to Griffith that he manipulated his entire ancestry and the events of his life in order for him to become Femto. If the IoE has power on that kind of level, then I have to question why the full cycle of the God Hand took a millennium? It seems an unnecessarily convoluted process. Are we to believe that only five worthy individuals arose within a thousand years? It stands to reason that the IoE would've wanted the God Hand to have been appointed opportunely to serve its underlying master plan. So either the IoE wasn't able to accomplish that, for whatever reason, or it chose not to? :idea:
 

Lithrael

Remember, always hold your apple tight
It's not like they're on a schedule. If you need a thousand years to get the five most awesome beings, you take a thousand years to get the five most awesome beings. They're recruiting Alexander the Great, not Alexander the Pretty Good.
 
Lithrael said:
It's not like they're on a schedule. If you need a thousand years to get the five most awesome beings, you take a thousand years to get the five most awesome beings. They're recruiting Alexander the Great, not Alexander the Pretty Good.
Hello, Lithrael.

I take your point on board and I've considered that the Idea of Evil has no real concept of time, insomuch that he exists apart from the material realm. The God Hand ARE on a schedule, however, because it's explicitly stated that a new God Hand member is chosen every 216 years. I mean, let's take your Alexander the Great example. That presupposes that there weren't other contemporaries of renown during Alexander's time. Someone like, say, Aristotle? It's probably a safe bet to assume that the God Hand didn't all share the same background. They could've been great philosophers, prophets, holy men, etc. you name it. And we're supposed to believe that it took over a millennium to bring them together, with a near-omniscient being pulling the strings of causality itself?
 
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