Is Griffith so great?

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waqas786uk

Guest
I'm writing this post in response to those people who questioned whether griffith would be an evil emporer like gaiseric. I've noticed that some people here seem to quite like griffith, why? I dont know. To me he's the biggest, well I wont insult the guy but instead explain why I dont like him and why I think he's headed down the same road as gaiseric....

From the beginning of berserk griffith has spent all his time in pursuit of his dream. His every action was directed at achieving his goals, even when he seemed to be "heroic". For example early on in the anime he saved gatts from a group of enemy cavalryman (Ep 3), i dont think he would have done that for just anyone. Gatts was special to grif because he knew that gatts was essential for fighting battles to bring about his dream. Its also worth mentioning that before gatts showed up caska was is right hand so to speak but with gatts arrival he seemed less interested in her, and why not? Gatts could better help grif achieve his dream than the weaker caska.

Griffith's relationship with Caska began when he saved her from a lecherous nobleman and that seemed like a genuinely kind act, but did he do it to save her innocence or boost his own ego? Later on when Gatts arrived griffith fought and defeated gatts easily in a one one one duel but then decided he liked him. Gatts was severly injured during the fight because and had lost a lot of blood forcing him to rest for a couple o days. Griffith, to insure that gatts would survive made caska sleep naked by this stranger for two days to ensure his health. At this point griffith's concern for caska's purity seems to have deminished a bit don't you think? Or maybe he didnt really care that much in the first place?

Griffith also did some unbelievable things for his dream, such as prostituting himself to a rich nobleman for a chest of gold. As he gained more power he seemed to become increasingly ruthless with his enemies, the kings brother, the queen amongst others were all murdered because they got in his way. Granted his reasons were perhaps justified because they were trying to kill him but you have to admit grif has always been brutal with his enemies.

I dont believe that grif is completely evil, in fact far from it. I believe griifith is someone that spends his life calculating risks and weighing up his options to decide which is the best route for him to take. He did this a countless number of times on the battlefield, he did it when he had most of the royal family murdered, he did it when he seduced princess charlotte, and he did it when he sacrificed his friends, oh sorry, i mean his associates, the hawks. Griffith had always viewed the hawks as his associates, people who would help him achieve his dream and if this meant their deaths, then so be it. After all they were willing to give thier lives for him in the battlefield. So why not just sacrifice themselves in one go so that he can get one one step closer to what he wanted?

I am aware that before the eclipse griffith had been tortured for a year leaving him both physically and mentally scarred. Some people on this board have suggested that his pain, as well as his feelings of being betrayed by the hawk's led him to do what he did. I think they're partly right but I dont think any of it's really an excuse. Griffith's feelings came from his suffering, hatred, and anger. His torture left him a broken man and being the proud man that he was me must have been extremely ashamed of what he had become, after all he didnt even seem to be in a fit state to stand up let alone lead a kingdom. My point is proved when griffith steals a cart and rides off right after he's rescued by the hawk's. He had been humiliated already and so to stay and recieve the pity of people he had felt were 'beneath him' was more than this proud man could take.

Then he got the chance to realise his dream during the eclipse, I think many have wondered what went through his head when he was given the chance to become a member of God's Hand. Griffith knew deep down that he had no one to blame but himself for his downfall but being griffith he rationalised that though the hawks would die, his dream could be come true. In short, he mused to himself......

"Should I betray my dream, or these people?..........Fuck them."

Thats all. I'd like to hear what you think.

Bye

waqas
 

wunwong

NOw...To gEt mY hANds uNstUcK.....
I think you made quite a few good points, but missed one of the most important theme in Berserk. The control(not quite absolute) of 'Fate' by the God Hands. Yes, Griffin was fairly calculating, and took every opportunity he could to chase his dream. He was willing to sacrifice those closest to him for it in battle, since it was unavoidable. But not in such a slaughter. To me, the powerful scene in the Anime version, and possibly the manga as well, was Griffin's visions during the eclipse. When Ubik, and Conrad took the guise of an old woman who 'guided' Griffin toward the road to the castle. The sight of them under that mask was in a way, the symbol of the extent they manipulated Griffin's Fate. He was set up, and played expertly like an istrument for this specific purpose, and they still had to convince him to follow that path. THere was every indication that if they didn't give him that vision, he might have weighted the Hawks, particularly Gatts, as more important than his dream. He was borken by his captivity, yes. He was broken further by his rescue in the hands of Gatts right before the eclipse. But he did not forsake them until after that vision(he tried to rescue Gatts from falling from the Giant arm, remember?). Like some of the other apostles(the count, Rochine), I don't think he really understood what was happening while summoning the GodHands, initially. So the decision to sacrifice the Hawks, was made after some prompting from the God Hands. In terms of did he do a very bad thing, yes. In view of all the things he accomplished before, regardless of whether its due to fate or due to personal effort, i would have to say yes. ;D
 
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waqas786uk

Guest
You make a very good point, and your right, I did overlook the fact that griffith was fated to do what he did and that he was guided by the god's hand.

While watching the eclipse seen in the anime I didnt think that griffith would do what he did and until he saw the vision there wasnt much indicstion that he was willing to sacrifice the hawks.

But the fact he saw the vision only seems to underline the fact that griffith was selfish. He was given a simple choice. On the one hand there was his great dream to rule his own kingdom, on the other were the hawks. He knew the consequences of the decision he would have to make, and lets face it no on was twisting his arm, it was his decision. He made it by himself.

bye

waqa
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I've noticed that some people here seem to quite like griffith, why?
For the same reason we like Guts.
Griffith's relationship with Caska began when he saved her from a lecherous nobleman and that seemed like a genuinely kind act, but did he do it to save her innocence or boost his own ego?
Why even bring that up?  You can’t prove his feelings at that very moment either way.  I say neither because Griffith didn’t save Caska, he gave her the power to save herself.  Would Griffith have saved Caska had the nobleman grabbed the sword instead?  I don't know, but I think the act was a genuine one.  Also, how large is Griffith’s ego that he would prostitute himself to another man, another “point” you brought up and I’ll discuss later.
For example early on in the anime he saved gatts from a group of enemy cavalryman (Ep 3), i dont think he would have done that for just anyone. Gatts was special to grif because he knew that gatts was essential for fighting battles to bring about his dream. Its also worth mentioning that before gatts showed up caska was is right hand so to speak but with gatts arrival he seemed less interested in her, and why not?
True, Griffith risked his life to save Guts because he was special to him, but not in the way your saying.  Griffith cared for Guts very deeply and it had nothing to do with his dream, quite the opposite.  Guts was the only person whom ever made Griffith forget about his dream because of his feelings for him, that’s why Griffith would risk his life (and his dream) to save Guts. Griffith truly cared about Guts, mor so than he was willing to admit to Guts or himself, Caska was the only one who caught on.  Another thing, Caska pointed out that Griffith never treated anyone the way he treated Guts, including her.  How can you use how Griffith supposedly treated Caska before Guts arrival as an example of anything since it's never depicted in the story!?
Griffith also did some unbelievable things for his dream, such as prostituting himself to a rich nobleman for a chest of gold
Did you forget why he did this?  He did it so his men wouldn’t have to die in battle to get the funds.  Or was that just for his ego too?
I believe griifith is someone that spends his life calculating risks and weighing up his options to decide which is the best route for him to take. He did this a countless number of times on the battlefield, he did it when he had most of the royal family murdered, he did it when he seduced princess charlotte
That is completely WRONG.  Seducing the Princess wasn’t calculated at all, it was a stupid and reactionary thing to do, and in case you didn’t notice, it didn’t serve his dream very well.  He slept with her to get over Guts leaving him, it was a BIG mistake for his dream but he didn’t seem to care at the time. In short, he betrayed his dream because of his feelings for Guts.

As for everything else, yes, the Hawks were created just to get Griffith’s dream and Griffith used them as such at the Eclipse.  But you are incorrect about his reasons, sacrificing the hawks, Guts & Caska and getting his dream was not a matter of pride, hate or insanity, getting his dream was all that mattered to Griffith.  He forgot his dream once when he slept with Charlotte over Guts.  Was he really supposed to give up his dream again?  His dream was also philosophy, it was who he was, what he was about.  He sacrificed himself for his dream as much as anybody else, his happiness, his humanity and his emotions, he had to suppress those in order for his dream to even have a chance.  His actions were monstrous indeed, but he’s never made excuses for them.  That’s just who is like him or not, and he never claimed to be anything else to Guts, so how did Griffith betray him?

-Griffith

P.S. What I don’t understand is why so many people who like Guts dislike Griffith so much when they are so alike.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Well, Guts was only thinking of his dream (To kill Griffith/Femto) with total disregard for the lives of anybody (he even abandoned Caska) else. That sound like someone else we know? ;)

-Griffith
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith as a character epitomizes the chasing of ones dream to the depths of insanity. He never compromises his dream (well...not NEVER, but you know.) He lives for the completion of his dream. While I was hurt by the Hawks loss, It made me love Griffith even more. He is the most complex character in the series. Waqas mentioned that Griffith was manipulated by God Hand. While I cannot deny this, God Hand never lied to him. They just told him, word for word what kind of man he was. They summarized who he was, and the choices he must make to gain what he desires.

"Reaching for that castle in the heavens, following a path paved with the dead...Thats who you are." -Ubik

"If fate is a principle that is beyond human comprehension...One that capriciously torments man...Then it is causality that man confronts it by embracing sorcery." -Void.

They do not lie...

So in restrospect: "Is Griffith so great?" abso-fuckin-lutely.
 

Fishbomb

Fear the slightly white swordsman!
There is not much I can say which has not been said already. You made many good points, and what I didn't agree with Griffith and Walther has already pointed out.

I for one, love Griffith because he is such a complex character. Because I find the confict between his single minded determination to fulfill his dream, and his attepts of dealing with his feelings for Gatts utterly fashinating. Would I have loved Griffith as much if Gatts had not been in the comic, or if Griffith had the same feelings for Gatts as he has fo Casca (loyal, useful)? No... probably not. What interests me about characters is not the easy parts, the black and the white, but the cracks in between.

-Griffith's love for Gutts which leads him to ruin his own dream, his very reason for living.

-Cascas admiration and loyalty for Griffith, to the point of being ready to abandon her love, Gatts, for him. Just because he needed her. And because she needed him.

-Gatts desire to be a real Friend to Griffith, instead of an associate. Thus leaving the hawks to walk his own path, because that seemed the only way Griffith would really respect him (the scene with Griffith and Charlotte at the fountain, when Griffith explains what a friend is).

The irony of it all is that right now Gatts is on the verge of doing exactly what is neccesary for Griffith to REALLY respect him. He has chosen his own path, his own dream, even if it is in opposition to Griffith's own. Gatts walks his own path for the first time in his live, no longer driven by simple revenge. He has finally realised what is important to him. His friends. Casca. To belong somewhere.

And Casca... while she is insane right now, I think that if nothing else, Griffith's betrayal and rape of her would break the mental 'bond' she had with him, would make her stand firmly on her own two feet for once, not looking to her white knight for guidance. She might hate Griffith, or she might forgive him, but no matter what he is no longer a God in her eyes.

As for Griffith... what will he have learnt from the whole ordeal? Right now it looks like nothing, he is if anything even more cold and focused.b Will that change? Look at my post about 'Griffith's mental state' for more details.

And yeah... Griffith is a bastard who needs to let his hair down once in a while, Gatts is a cruel cynic who doesn't care and Casca is a follower latching on to other people to define her life. Was that mean? Yeah, but I love them all the same... ;D
 
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