Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer?

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Great question, eh? We all know Berserk as a rather realistic manga, aside the apostoles and all, but a part of that realism is in question. How can Gatsu use the Dragonslayer?
It is impossible for a human to use such a sword or not?
This is a debate very famous in some countries where Berserk manga is available, but I haven't seen it here. Whaddda ya say?
Can Gatsu, implying that he is human with human limitations, brand that huge sword?
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

It was actually debated a while back on BSOM.  There was a bunch of crap on it and it even got a little scientific, examining the dimensions of the sword and trying to figure out it’s actual weight, I think Wereallmad said something about some university students doing something on it, though I don’t remember so I could be totally wrong.  I think it was determined that the sword would just weigh too damn much for any man to successfully wield it, let alone one of Guts size. Maybe someone else remembers it better than me.

-Griffith
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

Well, in the post section of the italian manga there was much speculation, even the university students and other scientific guys said a lot of interesting stuff. In my opinion, it is remotely possible to wield such a sword if it was made of an brom iron alloy, mixed with the elvish factor of godo's mines.
If it weighs over 100 kg it's impossible, also due to Gatsu's muscular definition. It is possible, however, to truly use really heavy weapons if you practice your whole life with them, something gatsu did. As much as I'd want to, I can't believe it's possible. I tried to wield an original broadsword, nothing like the dragonslayer, but trust me, it's a fantasy to efficently use such weapons in battle. YOu can make a show of it, but when it comes to fighting...way out.
 

BOB

poruno sutâ
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

A few months ago at work i discovered some sunshades that were about the size of the dragonslayer.
What followed was absolutely premature ;D
these things were damn heavy if you ask me and nearly impossible to lift them just grabbing the lower end and i'm working out 5 times a week doing 120 kilos benchpressing (no joke)
Besides this popular weight question how is guts able to swing it with his mechanical arm alone assuming that the iron hand opens and closes because of a magnetic centre?
Why doesn't he  have problems walking down stairs?

And a question i've been asking myself over and over is how do you draw that damn thing. Your arms would have to be about two meters long.


one further question. How do i get some friends of mine who are into role playing (AD&D etc.) to let me join them playing that guts character. they always get these uncomfortable smiles when i begin with that sword :-/
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

Well, the pectoral muscles aren't so involved as the triceps and the biceps (for drawing) and the lower back muscles for successfuly wielding it. However, I'm glad that you acknowledged the impossibilty to wield it by trying the shades thing. I am much weaker than you, as far as the benchppress goes, and I would suggest to every one to try and wield something heavy for a moment, just to get the idea of how HEAVY must it be for gatsu(not that you didn't already try, eh?)
 

magoamoth

Please... my egg... don't do anything to it... pro
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

I didn' do a scientific study but I think it's reasonnable to think a man (powerfull,muscled off course) can be able to lift this sword in front of him.
But thinking that Gatts has to bear his artificial arm also (pure iron,I think its weight must be 10kgs at least)....
He swings the sword with the strenght of his 2 shoulders (good trapezoid and deltoid muscles) but one and only arm! (his biceps and tripceps must be harder than rock)..

And how can he do for jumping with this heavy stuff?( knees should be turned in dust).

But the main thing i wondered: What this weapon is made of??
With it,Gatts can cut in half:
-trees
-steel
-bones
-heads
-apostles (more resistant but quite possible)
-horses :)

How Godo could make such a dangerous thing?
Maybe like in legends ,Excalibur would have been made with some mysterious stones fallen from heaven(it could explain for my mind this unknown and invincible alliage......)

.....or Godo stole the secret of NASA's rockets.... ^__^
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

It was actually debated a while back on BSOM.  There was a bunch of crap on it and it even got a little scientific, examining the dimensions of the sword and trying to figure out it’s actual weight, I think Wereallmad said something about some university students doing something on it, though I don’t remember so I could be totally wrong.  I think it was determined that the sword would just weigh too damn much for any man to successfully wield it, let alone one of Guts size. Maybe someone else remembers it better than me.

-Griffith
Quite the contrary. It was determined that (depending on how it was contructed) a normal man probably would be able to lift such a weapon.

However using it in battle would be an impossibility.

This is to say, if it were made of iron.

But the fact is, Griffith and perhaps other people in the world of Berserk have swords which are almost certainly forged of steel.

And we have to remember that Godo is a master swordsmith. The sword is described as "a slab of iron" I think, but you never know, it could have been forged of steel.

There is a very real possibility that Godo used another allow as well. He could have stumbled upon a recipie for "Damascus Steel" (BTW, Damascus steel is no longer a secret, some blacksmith somewhere managed to find out how to make it, the reason other swordsmith's couldn't, is because you actualy have to ADD a specific impurity to the metal, don't ask me anything more, I'm not a scientist). Which could probably make the sword light enough for a man Guts' size to wield to an extent.

And of course there is hte whole "supernatural alloy" theory.

Still, even swinging a normal sword as fast as Guts does with his dragonslayer, is virtualy impossible.

Besides this popular weight question how is guts able to swing it with his mechanical arm alone assuming that the iron hand opens and closes because of a magnetic centre?
This REAL german soldier had a REAL mechanical hand. One which allowed him to lift a lance.
http://www.karlofgermany.com/Goetz.htm


Why doesn't he  have problems walking down stairs?
WTF?

And a question i've been asking myself over and over is how do you draw that damn thing. Your arms would have to be about two meters long.
Actualy they wouldn't. You don't "unsheath" the sword or anything like that.

In volumes 1-3, there is hook on Guts' right shoulder. The chain link on the Dragonslayer hooks onto that. There's nothing more at all. It's basicly less sophisticated then a coat hangar.

In volume 14+ and in hte anime, Guts adds a second part.

The hook on hte right is stille there, but Guts also now has a long chain hanging from his left shoulder. After Guts hooks the sword onto the hook on his right, he pulls the chain over the sword, and snaps it onto his belt.

BTW, this subject has been debated MANY times on hte BSOM board. It was probably one of the earliest debates ever.

There was a lot of very interesting scientific stuff posted on it. Probably the best debate on hte subject was on the first (as in origional) BSOM BBS. Anyone have a link to that one?

It's a really good read, I recomend it.
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

I don t really dig meatallurgy, but you don't make swords from pure iron. You mix the alloy with magnesium and other lighter metals I think. Also, summing up the ramblings from various sources, mixing brome and the above mantioned "unknown" elf metal godo must have used (adamantium ;)), let's say you could make a sword like that weighing some 100 kg. It's the lowest I'd go. Maybe 90 kg's, if we o easy on miura's realism.
Still, gatsu can't swing it. Not even with both arms. I do however understand the premise of miura's idea. U should use the roteating force(english name doun't come in mind) of the weight, and thus wield without stopping, but merely rotating on and on. This however doesn't satisfy gatsu's quick movement. His ankles should be all messed up too.
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer


I don t really dig meatallurgy, but you don't make swords from pure iron.
Not today you don't. But there were indeed plenty of swords made soley from iron.

Modern swords are made from steel, an alloy. Rather then iron, a mineral.


Also, summing up the ramblings from various sources, mixing brome and the above mantioned "unknown" elf metal godo must have used (adamantium
As I said, alloy's like Damascus Steel are very real, and very old, nearly mythical types of metals.

The stories told about alloys like that shit are wilder then anything Miura could cook up.

You never know, Godo could indeed have stumbled upon something similar.


U should use the roteating force(english name doun't come in mind) of the weight, and thus wield without stopping, but merely rotating on and on. This however doesn't satisfy gatsu's quick movement. His ankles should be all messed up too.
Tourque?

And yes, that much rotational force would probably shear his lower back apart.
 

BOB

poruno sutâ
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

Posted by: White_Hawk Posted on: August 27th, 2001, 3:09am Well, the pectoral muscles aren't so involved as the triceps and the biceps
it is rather a problem for the shoulders and when lifting it for the triceps because of the leverage ( these sunshades were about 70 kilos :p)
Because of the length of these fuckers i had to bend back a bit, too.
now about an hour later when this thing is in the air you have to stabilize it. mmmmmh and swinging it downward without letting it crash onto the floor was impossible
So IMO fighting with it would only be possible if it's weight was less than hmm let's say 50 kilos
 

wunwong

NOw...To gEt mY hANds uNstUcK.....
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

I think what thi debate is neglecting here is the rather different view of physical capabilites byt Japanese(and many Oriental) people. For most who studied fighting in the Orient, they assume that movement can be supplemented with Ki, or CHi. Most Martial artists of adequate calibur can do things that are 'normally impossible', like breaking bricks(the basics), swallowing liquid metal and LIVE relatively unharmed, tighten muscle to the extent that small sharp objects like spear tips and needle can't penetrate their skin, etc. Miura is likely thinking of those when he drew Gatts, not only at the limit of human Muscle strength, but at the higher end of the Extraordinary Feat of Strength(EFS? :)) spectrum as well. As to whether you can wield dragonslayer, the feat of strength necessary is fairly impressive, but not really more unbelievable than the ones performed by REAL martial artists/Yogi/mystics across the world. So I thik its possible for someone like Gatts, who more or less regularly go into trance during hard battles, to acquire that EFS ability. Also, this fits the context of the story, since the spirit made flesh/influences reality is prevalent.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

Well, no matter how scientific this debate gets (I like DFInc’s EFS thing personally) I think in the end you have to just suspend belief. One scene that comes to mind is when Guts lifts Mozgus over his head using the Dragon Slayer and then does a forward flip, throwing Mozgus over the wall and into the crowd. Counting the weight of the Dragon Slayer, his armor and then adding in a huge, fully armored Mozgus you come to the conclution that Guts is capable of doing a forward flip with more or less a thousand pounds of weight on him! When you think about that, wielding the Dragon Slayer seems like no big deal.

-Griffith
 

Asir

that facil is to die, that dificil is to be born
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

good, in the sleeve and encourage all is able we see the points in favor of Gatt the since it was a boy has coached using long swords a great deal but large and heavy that the same one, we remembered ademas that including can maintain a sword with a man stopped upon her (as with Griffit) if we do memory, when it went battles with the I exercise Tudor, Gatt perdio his sword and Zod, I lend the his, that but parecia a machete destaza oxen, but or less than the same type that the Dragon Slayers, with the one that partio to the half to Boscone with all and armadutra put together with his horse





another point is, that Gatt becomes accustomed to carry superhuman training in the campiña where lives Godo, asi that is normal that its curpulencia fisica intensified ottro done that many have forgot, is that before the persons were not as smooth as they are it now, before the persons always worked with their hands and musculos in all types of routine things, np habian comforts and the climate and the illnesses the endurecian to upper levels of athletes olimpicos present, they remember, that the weight that carried a young man assembled with all and armor, elevation of malla, sword, shield,heavy spear and other things, sumama a great deal but that 40 kilograms (that explains tambien because the people was something chaparra) for which is very possible, that someone as Gatt, that uses but its feet that a horse to be transferred to all parts, walks fighting the majority of its life, and sobretodo, this in the age of greater vigor fisico and muscular capacity, can enter a sword of heavy iron,moving it as if out of paper and ademas carrying it to its backs another point to its favor is the fisica, because the does not have necessarily that to maintain the sword all the time, utilizes its propío weight to be able to balance the weight of the sword and moving it in all directions, that permits it ademas, to save energias for the moment of fights but serious and hard Aqui the bad point comes of using a weapon asi. The bones tend descalsificarse in consequence of the continuous pressures that they receive, the possible one that inside some years Gatt presented a series artritis reumatoide, asi as of a severe attack of osteoporosis, surely, for before complying with the 40 years, Gatt, podria to suffer from the bones quebradizos or including deformacion osea. segun I see it, the pósible weight of the sword oscillates among the 40 and 60 kilograms, a weight that Gatt, can carry, for now
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Meh at large.
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

well my guess is that Miura was thinking the same thing as me. one midevil men probley fought wars after wars so you would have to be really fit. two they didn't use little swords they used long nasty swords too split there enemys head. three like someone else said they probley started from smaller to larger swords.
 

White_Hawk

The Only True Free Spirit / Dark Horse Rider
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

It is true, and part of my theory, that if you train since a kid with a certain weapon, you can develop a specific muscle configuration which is specialized in the kind of fighting you do. For example, since the beginnig of my training with weapons (bo, nunchaku, tonfa,treesection staff and bokken), we always used a rather heavy bo since we had nothing else.
After a year or so of trainig one kata, I didn't develop any new muscles (I'm really skinny) but I did manage to handle the bo with enormuos ease. Comparing to some new guys that came later, all well built, it was hilarious.
Point is, even tough my phisical constitution did not change, I did manage the weapon much more easily, as my body got used to it. The discussion of chi or ki in the use of weapons is rather tricky. It is hard to channel ki through a weapon, especially without training. Personally I find it impossible, even after 10 years of trainig martial arts(including tai chi).
You can only apply the ki stuff to your self (breaking bricks, the easist thing in the world, and the most futile when done in public, believe me).
Gatsu must have developed a certain body structure which allows him to wield great swords easily. If he was to use a pike, a simple sword and shield, I don't think he'd really show us anything. Then again, it's a manga, it's fictional...but there are the arguments
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

sword ki? that stuff is so prevalent in chinese martial arts "mythology"....i guess japanese people had to rip that off too...

despite popular opinnions, the katana was actually a weapon that the chinese used -- the japanese stole the design during the tan dynasty (the time of chinese glory)

the japnese changed to grip and call it their most revered weapon -- ironically, in the ming dynasty, the chinese people had problem fighting the japanese pirates who used the katana, so the chinese people took the katana style back and revert the grip back to the chinese form (so that it's easier to perform the more flexible techniques)

just a little weapon history, and that is all
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer


sword ki? that stuff is so prevalent in chinese martial arts "mythology"....i guess japanese people had to rip that off too...

despite popular opinnions, the katana was actually a weapon that the chinese used -- the japanese stole the design during  the tan dynasty (the time of chinese glory)

the japnese changed to grip and call it their most revered weapon -- ironically, in the ming dynasty, the chinese people had problem fighting the japanese pirates who used the katana, so the chinese people took the katana style back and revert the grip back to the chinese form (so that it's easier to perform the more flexible techniques)

just a little weapon history, and that is all
Sorry, that's totaly inacurate.

The sword that the Japanese stole from China was called the "Ken" (I think Ken means fist, but I know it's also associated with sword-related words, so it might be more accurate to say it means sword).

The "Ken" was a souble edged straight sword. Even shorter then the modern katana.

When hte mongol's invaded Japan (not sure of hte date)however, this sword simply broke off in the mongol's leather armor. The Japanese added an arc to the blade and developed the popular folding technique which yeilds "spring steel".

The new sword was remarkably different from the ken. As far as the metalurgy, design, shape, weight. There is in fact, no resemblance whatsoever to any chinese made sword.

Also, the chinese never "took back" the katana, at least not officaly. They adopted use of katana on a widescale. There are many documented "refits" of katana's, using Chinese hilts. But these were personal weapons, and not ones used by hte miltary.

In other words, get your facts straight.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

Sorry, that's totaly inacurate.

The sword that the Japanese stole from China was called the "Ken" (I think Ken means fist, but I know it's also associated with sword-related words, so it might be more accurate to say it means sword).

The "Ken" was a souble edged straight sword. Even shorter then the modern katana.

When hte mongol's invaded Japan (not sure of hte date)however, this sword simply broke off in the mongol's leather armor. The Japanese added an arc to the blade and developed the popular folding technique which yeilds "spring steel".

The new sword was remarkably different from the ken. As far as the metalurgy, design, shape, weight. There is in fact, no resemblance whatsoever to any chinese made sword.

Also, the chinese never "took back" the katana, at least not officaly. They adopted use of katana on a widescale. There are many documented "refits" of katana's, using Chinese hilts. But these were personal weapons, and not ones used by hte miltary.

In other words, get your facts straight.
nope, i'm not referring to "ken", but "tou", if you understand what i'm saying

true enough that the chinese "tou" were a bit shorter than the katana, but the japanese were using the taichi (sp?) before they adapted to the faster and shorter katana.

the usage of the taito diminished after the sengoku era (the japanese segoku that is), and the chinese were using the tan-tou already (if i remember correctly)

let's remember that chinese weaponry is insanely diverse -- the tan-tou (the katana prototype) was popular among the chinese army (at least for the officials)

although the swords that those wacky hidden dragon junkie used were the most popular among swordsman, and don't give the crap about tou being a fat saber like a scimitar -- i'm talking about tan-tou, not da-tou (in general)

one thing i should not mention but i'll do it anyway is that the chinese emphasized the difference between the tou and the ken (i think the main difference were the blade's disposition and usage in technique?), therefore, they should not even discussed as similar weapons  :-/
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

The tanto is still used by the japanese "pseudo-military", as I call it. As well as the American Navy Seals, and other military organizations.

I've never heard this story about it being developed by the Chinese, and I'd have to see some major references cited before I'd buy it.

The japanese have always been credited with both the tanto, as well as the katana.

If the chinese used the tanto, I would assume that it was they who stole the weapon, rather then the other way around.

However, if you do indeed have proof to back up your statement, you are welcome to share it.
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

i'm not talking about the tanto!

i'm talking about the tan-tou!

tan (as in tan dynasty)
tou (a single edged blade)

get it right man! ?)

i could show you pictures when i get myself a scanner (i've got a chinese weaponry encyclopedia of sorts --screw the mainstream japanese weaponry!) ?D
 

eintrigga

Today's Yamaba?
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

ok, i couldn't find a tan-tou, but i did manage to find the
wugou-tou (which was developed in the chinese feudal ages -- which also means that it was developed before the tan dynasty and therefore the tan-tou)

http://sword.tacomall.com.tw/product/dao/sw-13.jpg

translation for the tou is knife, which is a direct translation but hardly an accurate translations in terms of western culture (it's too freak'n long to be a knife)
 

wunwong

NOw...To gEt mY hANds uNstUcK.....
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

I hate to get in between a healthy, if somewhat heated discussion...but perhaps you should start a different thread else where or something. While your discussion of weapon history is interesting, its a bit off topic here... you guys can probably compare notes for days without definitive results... :D

Back to the topic, I sorta agree with what white hawk said about the body growing into a configuation that handles the weapon better. ;D That makes so much sense with Gatts' experience. I still believe EFS was involved for him to use Dragonslayer in the first place, but with a proper muscle configuration it would be less of a strain.
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer


ok, i couldn't find a tan-tou, but i did manage to find the
wugou-tou (which was developed in the chinese feudal ages -- which also means that it was developed before the tan dynasty and therefore the tan-tou)

http://sword.tacomall.com.tw/product/dao/sw-13.jpg

translation for the tou is knife, which is a direct translation but hardly an accurate translations in terms of western culture (it's too freak'n long to be a knife)
It's simply a curved, single-edged, short sword. There is a hell of a lot more to a katana then simply the shape. That's like saying a scotish broadsword and a claymore are the same thing (which they are not).

Also, a single image of hte weapon, along with your description isn't exactly what I'd call evidence.

I'd have to see these facts comming from another source.

You've got one part of it down (an image), now you need supporting sources of evidence.

I'd hardly take your word over dozens of reputable books on hte subject.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

actually, assuming it's made from steel (of most any sort), it's entirely possible for gatts to wield the dragonslayer. he has been using similar weapons his whole life, white hawk's right about that. also, he trains CONSTANTLY. there's a big difference between what he does to survive & even daily excercises of the modern variety, no matter how strenous or well developed. his are, & have always been, far more intense, rigorous, etc. so do i think gatts could wield the dragonslayer in a normal battle? absolutely, just swing & aim. could he virtually fence with it, as he sometiems does? hell no, that's why fencing foils are so light. so against apostles & stuff like that, what he does is impossible for a human. but, what he does normally, that's not terribly far fetched.
 

fletch

Treading trodden trails for a long, long time.
Re: Is it possible for man to use the Dragonslayer

oh, & i'm totally discounting the possibility of iron as that really would be ridiculous.
 
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