M.C. Escher influence in Berserk

[sarahofborg]

I've been discussing this a while with some people. I'm pretty sure myself that Miura had to have been influenced by the key works of M.C. Escher when he drew his vision of Hell in Berserk. I always thought it was very obvious. The first time in my life that I read Berserk and saw his drawings I was very amused because I knew immediately it was a homage. Now, I don't know for a fact that Miura knows Escher existed, but Escher is a very well-known artist, as well-known as Salvidor Dali and Picasso, so he must have known.

Anyhow, I'd like to provide an opportunity for you all to judge for yourself. Here's an image of the Hell in Berserk:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7450/berserk056lu7.jpg

And here's one of Escher's most famous works, although there are many just like it that he created:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6672/escher2wh6.jpg

Note that Escher was the first artist to use the stair illustion in artwork, decades before Miura used it in his artwork. He dealt with optical illusions in general. He invented many new and now commonly copied optical illusions, such as the symetrical animal:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5351/escher1or6.jpg
If it weren't for Escher, most modern artists might not have ever discovered the artistic value of the illusion that he best expressed.
More info on Escher's work, and all of his artwork I hosted come from this website:
http://www.mcescher.com/

 

[Dirty Dog]

actually, you need to read on, because that wasn't "hell".

but yes, he likely got that idea from that piece, or one similar.

 

[sarahofborg]

I understand it's another dimension, but it's where hell was. It's not the fun part of the astral world.
I never really quite got the exact nature of the specific dimensions of the astral world in berserk. Too much metaphysics for me. I just found it interesting that he thinks the afterlife is a world where the common laws of physics don't apply; that there is no up, down, left, right, inside or outside. Actually, that would make it Zero dimensions...

 

[Walter]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it's an Escher shout out. I'd call it more of an homage than inspiration though since it's a very literal interpretation of Escher's work. Also, it's the Nexus, not Hell. Hell is the Vortex in the Abyss see this diagram .

 

[sarahofborg]

*stares at for 5 minutes straight*

....huh...

It all makes more sense now...I think...

dammit I suck at metaphysics. They make me forget I exist. Dubito, ergo Cogito, ergo sum, biotch.

The important thing is that you know what I meant :)

 

[Aazealh]

I just found it interesting that he thinks the afterlife is a world where the common laws of physics don't apply; that there is no up, down, left, right, inside or outside. Actually, that would make it Zero dimensions...

No, actually it'd mean there are more dimensions than we can perceive. There can't be zero dimensions... Anyway, the homage to Escher is pretty evident in that scene, it's nothing new. There's another one in volume 10, when Griffith sees the God Hand for the first time while in jail.

 

[sarahofborg]

Well then I can safely say now that I'm glad I'm finally right about something without having to have it explained to me, and then just get utterly confused anyway.

But actually, doesn't the term Dimensions refer to the directions one can move in space? First dimension is forward/backward. Second dimension is left/right. Third dimension is up/down, and there is no fourth.

Lack of any of those dimensions means zero dimensions. A world like that of MC Escher has no dimension because up is down, left is right, in is out, ETC. Such a universe is impossible, which is why the art is known as impossible realities. I think it's particularly genius of Miura to think that this universe of impossible realities is where the afterlife, the devine, the soul reside, and even the collective conscienous of mankind resides.

*Head implodes from paradoxes*

I'm still a bit boggled by the metaphysics of Berserk, no matter how many times I read it. Still, I think I've learned more from rereading it this time.

 

[Aazealh]

But actually, doesn't the term Dimensions refer to the directions one can move in space? First dimension is forward/backward. Second dimension is left/right. Third dimension is up/down, and there is no fourth.

That's not really how it works. The fourth dimension is commonly accepted as being time for one. I'm sure you'll find plenty of resources on the subject if you search on Internet.

Lack of any of those dimensions means zero dimensions. A world like that of MC Escher has no dimension because up is down, left is right, in is out, ETC.

No, that's not it. I think you should read more on the subject. Like I said, a world like that implies that there are more dimensions than we can perceive, dimensions that go beyond the visual spectrum.

 

[sarahofborg]

Right I knew I was fogetting something: time, although that's not official.

But otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't use Escher's world to express the concept of an extra dimension. Eschers world has no dimension, the ...er...Vortex was it?...it has extra dimensions that are inconceivable. What's more inconceivable than a world with no dimensions? That makes sense to me...if only me.

I told ya it's a paradox :)

 

[Walter]

Escher's work is a way of describing the fourth dimension. The Klein Bottle shape Void produces when Skull Knight attacks him is also a mathematical expression of a fourth-dimensional object. I don't think it's necessary, but I'd be willing to cite sources to back these claims up.

 

[sarahofborg]

I don't need sources I trust your word...your the "wiseman" after all. But I am intrigued. Now I assume you meant the 4th, non-existent reality, not time (the so-called 4th dimension.)
I really haven't read up on Escher's work or life myself. I just saw the connection and wondered what it meant. You could say Berserk made me more interested in Escher.

Didn't I post this in Speculation Nation? Did it get moved, or am I confused? Cause I feel like this is speculation on my part, so I figured it went there.

 

[Walter]

Now I assume you meant the 4th, non-existent reality, not time (the so-called 4th dimension.)

I just mean extradimensional space. The fourth dimension, in scientific terms, is just a broad way of describing space that's beyond our reach and grasp, as Aaz initially said.

Didn't I post this in Speculation Nation? Did it get moved, or am I confused? Cause I feel like this is speculation on my part, so I figured it went there.

It was moved because it's not really a speculation that Escher's work is featured in Berserk. It's pretty obvious. Still, it's been fun reviewing these topics.

 

[sarahofborg]

Well I'm glad you're having fun. I'm still scared shitless I'm gonna make a fool of myself. Still, I've learned a lot here without having to do hours and hours of research. This is why I joined :)

 

[Walter]

Well, doing research beforehand is always advised. Otherwise, you're walking into the saloon without your six-shooters. Never a good idea.

SKnet as a saloon in the old west... It's a pretty accurate analogy actually, especially when you post a thread in Spec Nation

 

[sarahofborg]

Yhea but I'm not gonna work all week long researching a topic before I post. If I did my research, I would have found the answer myself eventually right? I went through the trouble to first discuss this topic with others, then I searched out the place where I could find the right images of Escher's work. I did as much as I was willing to do before I posted it.

Gimme some credit man, I think this is the hardest I've ever worked to join and post at a message board.
I'll admit it. I'm 6 bullets short of a six-shooter when it comes to some topics. That's why I came here. I didn't come to post on stuff I'm an expert on because then I'd have nothing to say. Meh, here I go again, reading too much into this...I'm going to bed before I reek more havoc.

 

[Walter]

There's no reason to be sweating bullets when you start a thread as long as you've given some time into researching topics that have been discussed here before. Just for your info, a simple search for "Escher" produced this:

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=797.0

Not the greatest thread as far as conciseness, but it does contain almost identical information as far as discussion of extra/multidimensional space.

Anyway, I'm personally all about discussion. Hell, it's in my custom title. Especially since that other thread is almost 6 years old. But when people make threads titled: IS GRIFFITH FEMTO WHYD HE HAVE TO KIL JODO? You can understand our attitude to some repeated questions.

edit: Wereallmad... I SEE YOU. Come out of the closet dude!

 

[sarahofborg]

Not sure what your edit was about

But ah, before my head explodes, I'm gonna mention that I just looked up the scene where Void is attacked and the thing he produces doesn't look like a Klein bottle to me...but I must not have understood what you meant. I did actually skim that thread though, but only the part where Escher was named.

But um...yhea...sleep calls...sleep is good...

 

[Walter]

Well, I'm no expert either. But from what I know through research, it looks and functions like a Klein Bottle should to me - it redirected matter through the shape.

 

[sarahofborg]

That makes more sense, it just didn't look like the diagrams of them I saw, but the concept is the same. Heck, explains a lot.

Blow your mind and click this. If you put water in there, is there Any way to get it out?

 

[Aazealh]

Right I knew I was fogetting something: time, although that's not official.

Time is a non-spatial dimension in which events occur in sequence, that's as official as it gets. That's what is taught in schools.

But otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't use Escher's world to express the concept of an extra dimension. Eschers world has no dimension, the ...er...Vortex was it?...it has extra dimensions that are inconceivable.

Now you're contradicting yourself. The world that is depicted there has indeed extra dimensions (and I insist on the plural). It has the 3 dimensions we know and love, plus others that we can't perceive. That's why it appears the way it does. What you're talking about, this "no dimensions" thing, doesn't make any sense. It's just not possible. People exist in there, Guts stood and fought with the God Hand. If there was "no dimensions" like you say then we'd just see a blank page with maybe a dot in the middle. I don't know what's confusing you about this...

Try to read some information on Hypercubes, maybe that'll help you understand. They're cubes in 4 dimensions.

it just didn't look like the diagrams of them I saw

There are different ways to represent them anyway.

If you put water in there, is there Any way to get it out?

Nope. And Klein Bottles are 2 dimensional objects too, it's important to note it. They are non-orientable surfaces, meaning their inside is their outside. Just like Mobius strips, they have to be represented in 3 dimensions in order for us to perceive them for what they really are. In 2 dimensions we couldn't grasp the complexity of their nature. So a similar object in more than 3 dimensions isn't something we can visually represent accurately. Which brings me to the fact that Void's defensive move was only similar to a Klein Bottle in concept, it's not one per se.

PS: I'm renaming this thread to M.C. Escher, so that the name is spelled correctly at least.

 

[Gurifisu]

Blow your mind and click this. If you put water in there, is there Any way to get it out?

Well you never said you couldn't alter or destroy it.

And don't worry about it... to understand the different levels of Berserk you need to have at least have studied philosophy, but it's not a requirement to enjoying the manga.

 

[OmegaSeamaster]

You know what else is neat? The artist H.R. Giger who designed "The Alien" from ALIEN has a 2007 calendar out.

On the cover is the EXACT same pagan god statue that the count's wife was screwing in BERSERK Vol. 3.

All the details are the same - the pose, the cadeuceus, everything.

Miura probably is a Giger fan as well.

 

[Aazealh]

On the cover is the EXACT same pagan god statue that the count's wife was screwing in BERSERK Vol. 3.

That's Baphomet, an old pagan divinity and certainly nothing H.R. Giger invented (and actually, if you look at it in details Giger's version is relatively dissimilar to the more traditional representation found in Berserk). Of course you could have learned that with a simple search on the forum. =)

 

[OmegaSeamaster]

I was also going to say that it could have been a common representation of the god, but then again I'm not an expert!

 

[Forest Wraith]

This line of discussion is really bolstering my current understanding of how The Godhand and The Idea of Evil operate. Griffith's counter of Guts' attack, Void's Klein Bottle reflection of Skull Knight's, the mathematical nature of the Nexus and any other examples that I may be missing (Don't forget that Void and Femto are also mathematical terms as well as the names of the pivotal members of The Godhand): Indicate to me that their powers are based on the manipulation of Physical Reality on Mathematical parameters through sheer force of will and/or strong emotions if you prefer.

This highlights The Idea of Evil and The Godhand as very cold, pathological beings; The Mathematical nature of their manipulations of Time and Space underly their extreme, ruthless, methodical Nature. The Idea of Evil isn't just the desire for reasons why?: It is the Manifestation of the Desire to Defy The Natural Order and to Selfishly Carve out a place in the Cosmos that makes comfortable room for not just Us but all of our False-Truths' and Pettiness: Even if it means Cutting out our Hearts and Annihilating anything else unfortunate enough to get in the way of that goal.
That's a big part of what Miura has been getting at with the Entire Storyline of Berserk.