My Image of Skull Knight - (not only) based on speculations

Like everyone who has seen at least single page showing the Skull Knight, I was wondering what his story was. While reading the manga, I was hyper focused on everything related to him in pursuit of putting the puzzle together. Although it is impossible to complete the puzzle without having all the pieces, I wanted to share my "image" of a SK. Actually, not only share my thoughts, but also engage discussion on this topic and challenge my "image". Since there is a lot of text, I've decided to arrange it in specific way:​
  • Quotes from manga are written in italic - "Example quote",
  • When quoting, or mentioning fact, I use reference to specific chapter where something was said, or happened (e.g. [ch. 300] means chapter 300),​
  • My opinions, and speculations are written with underline - Example opinion,
  • Rest (usually common knowledge) is written "normally".​

1. WHAT is SK
Current "body" of SK seems to work like Wicker Man. Wicker Man were defined as "fetish that uses the life force of sacrifices" [ch. 343]. We know that current armor of SK was made by Hanarr [ch. 361]. We know that Volvaba is "master of curses and manipulation of departed souls" [ch. 361]. Summoning of Wicker Man by Molda was recognized as forbidden/taboo, so soul manipulation is likely too [ch. 343]. Flora played the role of Schierke in SK journey (helping to resist his inner demon during usage of Berserker Armor), and was accused of breaking the Taboo. SK, previous owner of Berserker Armor bled out. So all the tools are there, that's certain. My approach is that SK "ego" was transferred into new armor making him effectively Wicker Man. Well, it's commonly accepted thesis, nothing new.

2. WHO is SK
Well, that's way more tricky than the first point. So I will divide it into subsections.

2.1 Is he apostle?
No. He swore to slay godhand/apostles. Brand does not react with him. He is friends with inhabitants of Elfheim. Also, we see the moment of his death, and this usually was the moment sacrifices were made. All of it points to a fact that he did not make a sacrifice.

2.2 Is he branded?
In his current state, no. While Guts was fighting with dead spirits seemed to ignore SK [ch. 91]. Also, in the same chapter, after Guts "win" his fight, the spirits have found "another torch" which was Casca and not SK. Nothing suggests that he is branded in his current form.

2.3 Was he branded?
It's way more tricky question. However I believe he was not. In conversation with Guts, he compares them to shadows on the water, but when confronted with Guts determination, he admits that some unpredictable things may happen, suggest that brand may be unanticipated aid and wonders if that makes Guts different from him (fish vs shadow on the water) [ch. 142]. Also, effect of possible lack of brand is mentioned in 2.6. Cant really find anything more for or against this thesis, however I stand by it.

2.4 Who was his beloved one?
Well, the answer is simple: Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms. Lets go to the next one... right? Not really. We can not ignore the fact that Flower Storm Monarch exists. Both Guts and Schierke are shocked by their resemblance [ch. 363]. Flower Storm Monarch ("monarch" meaning both king/queen, and butterfly) wields a staff with cherry blossoms. Also, her elven form has both wings and antennae just like Lady Priestess necklace [ch. 362]. So visual depictions of both Lady Priestess and Flower Storm imply strong connection between the two. We know from retrospection that both SK and Lady Priestess died [ch. 362]. We also assume, that SK was revived by Flora (reasoning explained in point 1. of this post). Gedfring explains that Flora "was very fond of the BOTH OF THEM", but "her feelings were too strong" and "Flora violated a taboo" [ch. 363].

That's what makes me think that Flora actually revived both of them in a way - putting SK's soul into the armor, and Lady Priestess spirit into the tree in Elfheim. After all, the tree itself is called "Spirit Tree" [ch. 363]. Another Spirit Tree we've encountered was the Flora mansion [ch. 200]. It is explained by Schierke that surroundings of Spirit Tree are in "a slightly deeper astral domain" so it can help sustaining constant presence of astral entities [ch. 203]. Also, she mentions that "In the physical world this tree rotted about two hundred years ago" and "the stronger the power of existence is in physical world, the longer and more splendid its shape will be fixed in the astral world" [ch. 203]. This would explain why Flora says that her time will be over soon, she also mentioned that "we magi have learned and inherited the practice of releasing our ethereal bodies" and she expects to do soon [ch. 201]. As further explained by Flora "in the relatively shallow layer of the astral world [...] various ethereal beings exist as living legends" including elves, unicorns, etc. [ch. 201]. Those "living legends" were omnipresent in entire Elfheim due to the Spirit Tree (e.g. throne hall during welcoming of Guts party) [ch. 346].

Gedfring explains to Schierke nature of "Daimons" - they are "beyond the spirits native to natural world" (so they live deeper in astral world than elves) [ch. 360]. He also mentions that "Daimons [...] in life they were human... heroes and sorcerers among them." [ch. 360]. So we know for a fact that potent magi's can transcend. Although based only on single case (Floras) we can assume, that transcendental form of such magi could be related to their life. Flora died in flames [ch. 224] and then reincarnated as fire Daimon [ch. 353]. Also, we witness that Spirit Tree can "uphold" presence of Floras Daimon (even that the tree power was weak) [ch. 229].

After bringing all those facts, I can finally start assembling them, so bear with me. I believe the Lady Priestess was a human magi. Flora brought both SK and Lady Priestess bodies to Elfheim. Transferred SK soul into the armor, and buried Lady Priestess remnants under the Spirit Tree. Maybe specific place of burial was enough, or some additional magic was involved, but it was enough to establish constant presence of Lady Priestess Daimon. Her Daimon took the form of the elf (we know that she had at least strong connection to the elves - hence the necklace from [ch. 362]). I assume that Spirit Tree of Elfheim is far more stronger than the one from Flora's mansion, so her presence can be sustained (Spirit Tree from mansion was cut down long ago, yet proved to be functional). In my opinion Flower Storm Monarch is Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms in form of Daimon.

While I'm not sure if Flora took any part in Lady Priestess revival, breaking the taboo with SK spirit transfer was more than enough to exile Flora from Elfheim (it could even be the first decree of Flower Storm Monarch). We also know, that Flora regrets what she did, since she told Schierke "You, as a sorceress, should know how sinful it is to live beyond the extend of your allowed time" [ch. 224]. Flora was so fond of SK and Lady Priestess love, that she broke that taboo. Even if my point is that Lady Priestess/Flower Storm Monarch are the same "person", I will still use both names to distinguish time before and after her "death". First of all, Flower Storm Monarch can shape-shift swiftly between elven and human form which was presented on many occasions [ch. 363]. I assume that one, who is originally elf, could (by use of magic) conceal her elven visual traits (especially when she was among humans). I also assume that elf who earlier concealed her looks, would return back to "normal" in moment of death, and we do not witness it [ch. 362]. So in my opinion, Lady Priestess is NOT Flower Storm Monarch. Lady Priestess Daimon is manifested as Flower Storm Monarch. Just as SK is not his former self (hence he goes by other name).

If I am not mistaken, or lost in translations, Flower Storm Monarch is king/queen of elves, but it is not specified that she is actually an elf. I think she is not an elf, but Daimon, heavily influenced by her relation with elves. Why would she be so "large" and human-sized compared to all the other elves we've seen? Also, she can shape-shift between her human form, and Daimon form, just like Flora (she was first the "old lady" then she swiftly swapped to "fire lady") [ch. 353]. For the last, not least, lets embrace SK and Flower Storm Monarch reunion [ch. 363]. Flower Storm Monarch greets SK with words "Do you come calling to visit the grave of the Lady Priestess [...]? Sir Knight." [ch. 363]. It perfectly pictures the separation between both of them. Flower Storm Monarch distances herself from Lady Priestess, since they are not longer the same thing. Also, she distances herself from SK since she know how hollow he is, so she calls him "sir knight". We can see that Daimon is capable of feelings, since Flora's Daimon manifest emotions by how she speaks to Schierke [ch. 353]. However, SK told Guts truth about Berserker Armor which is "each time you wear that armor and fight as the Berserker... light... voice... warmth... you will come to lose many things" [ch. 237]. So we can surely say that "losing" yourself to Berserker Armor means losing humanity (which is mentioned later in the same chapter). After losing life to Berserker Armor, all SK has is single purpose - grudge against inhumans [ch. 363]. Meeting of the lovers in chapter 363 is one-sided since only Flower Storm Monarch can feel anything. However SK clearly understands his (previous) relationship since he mention that "I have not the heart to bathe in the lambency of my mortal days" [ch. 363]. But if his lover was TRULY dead, shouldn't he feel grief or anger standing in front of her grave? Yet he mentions "lambency" of his mortal days, which could mean that he, in his current state can not enjoy his reunion with Flower Storm Monarch (which would explain why Flora regret her decision after all). Guts and rest quickly leave the place of lovers reunion since "it appears we are not invited" [ch. 363]. Their relationship is clearly significant. So yeah, lots of words, but SK beloved one is very crucial to decipher him.

2.5 What about thorns and rose?
Lets go with something easier now. SK shield insignia depicts rose entangled in thorns [ch. 88]. His armor and sword also share thorn motive, but lets focus on shield insignia. What is commonly associated with rose? Love, beloved ones, feelings of HEART. I guess it's pretty straightforward. One could argue it's other flower like... cherry blossom. But it wouldn't change anything in SK's case. We can see that in dreamworld, Cascas heart is entangled with thorns [ch. 354]. Since Guts and SK story is parallel, it simply means anguish of strugglers beloved, including pain caused by struggler itself. What about the thorns on the swords handle? Well, it sounds very inconvenient. Even Guts is amazed with this idea after he wields it and bleeds: "WHAT'S WITH THIS SWORD...?" [ch. 91]. I believe it is a reminder to keep struggling, and to keep fighting. Also, a reminder to THINK TWICE BEFORE STARTING A FIGHT (about that in 2.6). I have not found any additional meaning behind thorns on his armor, besides helmet. Such helmet with thorns resembles a CROWN (about that in 2.8).

2.6 How did his beloved died?
We are back to the speculation realm. But bear with me. In SK death retrospection we can see his beloved ones dies while entire surroundings are burned in the shape of the brand [ch. 362]. Just like during the incarnation ceremony which Guts witnessed. In chat between SK and Guts, the former one wonders if Guts is any different from him, yet he warns him that he has to "fight... or rescue..." since "it won't be as simple as catching two birds" [ch. 142]. Lets remember that SK lost his beloved one during such an event. When the dead spirits began to merge into shape of godhand during incarnation ceremony, Guts realizes "shadow...?! then these... ain't the real thing?!" [ch. 164]. Split seconds later, Guts realizes "I'm this close, but that sharp pain in the brand's not there...?!", and then he concludes "They're not real." [ch. 164]. The only reason that Guts comes to this conclusion is fact that he is branded. This is what SK meant by saying that Guts brand could be "unanticipated aid" and made them both different [ch. 142].

Lack of sharp pain in his brand stopped Guts from going frenzy on "shadow" of godhand, and he reminded words of SK "fight, or rescue [...] it wont't be as simple as catching two birds" [ch. 164]. SK beloved died, because he believed that godhand he met during incarnation process were "true" one. He was deceived by "shadow on the water" and went on his frenzy. Absence of brand did not allow him to distinguish true godhand from imitation, so he went on frenzy instead of saving her. This is why I think that SK has thorns on blade to remind him to THINK TWICE BEFORE STARTING A FIGHT. His beloved one died (already branded) in his hands during incarnation ceremony (based on the background), however incarnation ceremony did not engrave brands on victims [ch. 362]. So she was sacrificed before, but died as a collateral damage during incarnation ceremony. We have little no none hints about how could this happen, but SK conversation with Luca shed some light on the matter. SK was during the hunt for Egg of the Perfect World, yet when he saw, that Luca willingly sacrificed her life, he delayed his hunt for the sake of saving her [ch. 156]. Before her heroic sacrifice, he couldn't care less (since tons of people were dying all around). Her motive and action instantly caught his attention - he wanted to know "Why did you chose to die?" [ch. 156]. After they escape together from the den, he advises her to escape, yet she denies [ch. 165]. He wonders about how she can "with that much horror before her eyes, to cast herself back into middle of it... and without even hint of wishing to rely on my power" [ch. 165]. At first he judges it as "Ignorant fool-hardiness", but then reconsiders it as something different and we see quick flashback - fire which occurred during incarnation ceremony [ch. 165]. He notices the similarity between actual and previous incarnation ceremony, and acknowledges that "if my assistance was solicited now, I would be unable to comply" [ch. 165]. The very same moment, Zodd appears in front of him, and as SK says, "All moves as if parallel to that time..." [ch. 165]. So the current course of action reminds him previous incarnation: a woman who sacrificed her life heroically, and him being unable to help, because of fight with Zodd. One could say that going frenzy with Berserker Armor and fighting Zodd is not the same thing, however bear with me - I will explain it later in 2.9.

2.7 Who sacrificed his beloved?
I believe it was Void. Obviously, the Void was entity the human sacrificer had just become, but it makes the most sense to me. When SK appears on the Femtos Eclipse, he goes straight to attack Void (even if Void is most far away, standing on thumb of the hand sculpture) [ch. 87]. They also share a stare down [ch. 88]. It was personal. SK even quoted Void sardonically during Femtos Eclipse [ch. 80]. Also when we look at retrospection from Berserk Armor, we can see that Void is present there [ch. 362]. Rest of figures during this retrospection seem to be depicted as of lesser importance (and none of them are confirmed to be godhands). Also, Void seem to be only one branding people. Who is Void? I don't really have strong opinion for now. Yet I have to admit that he is articulate, and he seems to lead godhand, at least as the master of the eclipse ceremony. Also his appearance resembles torture victim - cut off nose, sewn-in eyes, face skin stretched [ch. 88]. Just like a prisoner convicted of treason or heresy. Well, during meeting between Mozgus and Farnese it is said "that a sage once imprisoned in this tower by supreme king Gaiseric continued to proclaim the sins of the king to god, in midst of every possible torture, until in time an angel was made to descend" [ch. 138]. Well, sage makes a good candidate considering Void's enormous brain (and I assume that demonic form caricaturizes traits from before transformation). Sage had his skirmishes with Gaiseric, not Skull Knight, right? Lets then talk about Gaiseric now.

2.8 Did Gaiseric become Skull Knight?
Well, I bet on it. Older residents of Elfheim call him "Majesty" and "King" so they know him and his status [ch. 361]. We also know that Elfheim "was attacked by a great kingdom on the continent, long ago" which could be the one Gaiseric ruled [ch. 361]. SK also comments that, what Guts have seen in Berserker Armor retrospection was "the end of a foolish king" [ch. 362]. Someone can say, that he could be some other king but... Well, its too much of coincidence. First of all - visuals. Skull helmet on both of them, both heavy armored horse riders with shield [ch. 53]. Gaiseric was called "Demon King", "Skull King", "King of Galloping Death" since "he would don a dreadful helmet shaped after a skull" [ch. 53]. Well, sounds familiar. Also, the timeline works. Gaiseric ruled "about a thousand years ago", and we know that SK is alive for at least thousand years (since he witnessed both incarnation ceremonies, and each occur every 1000 year) [ch. 142]. For me it's more than enough. During lifetime he was Gaiseric, after "death" he became Skull Knight. He don't use his old name, since he is not the same person anymore.


2.9 What about the Zodd?
That's way more tricky. SK is very old. However Zodd has to be very old too since he recognized Berserk Armor, and asks SK "you would have him follow you... down that same path into hell?" [ch. 226]. Some may argue that he is way younger, since legends of "Nosferatu Zodd" last for only 300 years. However it is important to see the monologue of Zodd from battlefield. He thought "wandering for three hundred years. I guess seeking among man really is useless. I've stood before the apostles so many times... but somehow they're no good" [ch. 128]. It explains why the legend among humans is only 300 years old, while Zodd being much older. It's also interesting that he fought against apostles probably longer than against humans.

So Zodd and SK have a long story together, at least 1000 years old. They respect each other, and fight on numerous occasions. Strong bond between two can be noticed, and it's manifested in their everlasting fight. Zodd went as far as to say "I'm the only one who can hold you off" [ch. 224]. He did not say "kill" or "defeat". He said "hold you off". It's important, because as mentioned in 2.6, SK's beloved one died because he was "hold off" with fight. Also, during Femtos Incarnation, Zodd showed up and hold SK off so if Luca asked for his help, he wouldn't be able to do so. Also, during Femtos Eclipse, Zodd hold off SK for some time - the whole story might have been different had it not been for this delay.

Rickert, judges that SK has advantage over Zodd in fight, which would fit since SK managed to enter eclipse after all [ch. 88]. SK attacks seem to be nonlethal for Zodd - even when he was dismembered, he "reassembled" himself (same thing happen when Guts and Griffith faced Zodd for the first time) [ch. 88]. So their battle cant really conclude, which is why it's "everlasting".

Zodd proved to be different from other apostles we meet in many ways. He says "I have no interest in their indulgent spree. What I seek are the strong." when he meets SK during Femtos eclipse [ch. 80]. So Zodd has goal which is independent from godhands plan. He is interested only in one thing, which is fighting, yet he is honorable with it. He allow to delay battle with SK after eclipse [ch. 88]. He also allows guts to walk away, even defends him from being killed by other apostles [ch. 278]. He agreed to cooperate and fight side by side with Guts, allowing their fight to be postponed [ch. 277]. He seems to care about only one thing: fighting the strong.

He can be only hurt within his "dozing. The dusk between dream and consciousness" as white hawk did [ch. 128]. Lets stop there for a moment. SK fights inhumans for 1000 years and godhand members are exceptionally strong, even among apostles. We know that SK tried to strike Void with his sword (not enchanted by behelits at this moment) [ch. 88]. SK came to the eclipse to fight godhand, not to save anyone (he said to Guts "Don't thank me. It was incidental") [ch. 92]. So it's safe to assume that his sword was capable of killing godhand members (even the oldest one we know, Void). Yet Zodd, slashed to pieces by SK sword did not suffer any permanent damage. Either SK could not kill him, or didn't want to. During entire story, we witness Zodd getting permament damage on single occasion - by white hawk. Zodd screams that he seeks "only the ABSOLUTE strongest" and he meets one, seconds later which made him bow to Griffith [ch. 128]. Word "absolute" have many meanings. Absolute both as "strongest among strong" and "complete". I don't think it was about raw power. I think it's related to Griffith being present on all realms at once, hence he is "complete". Griffith was born in Physical World, transcended into Astral World as Femto, and due to masses of people who believe in/follow him, he also came to life in Ideal World as White Hawk. Only White Hawk could actually permanently damage Zodd, which makes me think that Zodd is also bound to Ideal World (about that later).

That makes me think that Zodd has not made a (behelit related) sacrifice. He seems to be recognized as "enigmatic" even among apostle commanders [ch. 277]. What would he sacrifice to gain such power? I can't see anything, since he only cares about fighting strongest, and it was not taken from him. Sadly, we do not have a single encounter which show how Guts brand reacts to Zodd (he was always accompanied by other apostle). However there was no indication that Guts were suffering during flight directly on the back of Zodd [ch. 277].

I think that Zodd is embodiment of SK's "dark side" (as "demon hound" was Guts "dark side"). Zodd resonates the same kind of aura as SK, Guts mistook SK for Zodd during their first meeting and even SK's shadow cast shape of Zodd human form [ch. 37]. As explained in 2.8, SK was Gaiseric. Zodd silhouette and hairstyle seems to fit Gaiserics depictions [ch. 53]. Also, Gaiserics helmet combines skull and a shape resembling a likeness of Zodd "demonic" form [ch. 53]. As we know, Beast of Darkness (Guts Hound) existence is not caused by Berserker Armor. We can see it in action before Guts wears Berserker Armor for the first time [ch. 190]. Obviously, using Berserker Armor empowers Beast of Darkness, yet it is not it's source. Guts Hound, even when it was relatively weak, was able to entirely take control over Guts body [ch. 190]. Both Zodd and Guts Hound share straightforward and direct motivation (however slightly different). Those facts make me think, that Zodd is Gaiserics Beast of Darkness. In addition, I believe that Beasts of Darkness reside in Ideal World (since they are born of humans thought and emotions). This is what makes Zodd invincible to SK attacks.

There is NO grave of Gaiseric in Elfheim
(at least it's not shown). We know that Lady Priestess (so probably also Gaiserics) remains were brought to Elfheim. Why not bury him there? Why not the same place as his beloved one? Also, Flora engraved protective rune onto Berserker Armor [ch. 222]. Why so late? Well, with Gaiseric, things went out of control too quickly. When talking about usage of Berserker Armor, Flora says "People may appear to repeat the same mistakes... but karma is by no means a circle. Indeed, it is a spiral. Those children... are not bound to chose the same paths you and I did." to which SK agrees [ch. 222]. So both Flora and SK agreed on the fact that Berserker Armor is extremely dangerous to it's user, so they felt obliged to carve this protective rune which protects "ego" of the wielder.

Zodd (Gaiseric Beast of Darkness) held him off during various moments, especially during incarnation ceremony where SK beloved one lost her life. He submitted to his Beast, and during this event, from among "fight" and "rescue" he have chosen "fight". We can not see Lady Priestess mortal wound, yet she was not burned at stake, and most probably not ripped apart (which would be two of most possible deaths at that moment) [ch. 362]. I believe, that Gaiseric went on frenzy, and accidentally killed her. After he realized what he'd done, he regained his "senses" (hence his face is full of terror, and his helmet in "basic" form, not Beast of Darkness form) [ch. 362]. Lady Priestess forgives him, which is suggested by her hand gesture, and then they both pass away [ch. 362]. Flora (or someone else) bring both remains to Elfheim, and proceed with her ritual, breaking the taboo (at least on SK). I believe that during that ritual, Gaiseric was divided into SK and Zodd. How? I believe that, Beasts of Darkness reside in Ideal World, since the Gaiseric was dead at that moment, the Beast itself was also dead/dormant. However, SK "ego" was transferred to different vessel, effectively leaving his body with Beast of Darkness inside. Moment the SK "ego" awakened inside new body, his thoughts (Beasts of Darkness cause of existence) were back again. Zodd (Beast of Darkness) was truly born then, by possessing "ego-less" body of Gaiseric, yes still fueled by his thoughts (that would also explain lack of grave).

Such course of events explains a lot
, and I've struggled to find it contradicting with the manga. However I'm far from being omniscient, so I encourage you (readers) to undermine my "image" of SK. After all, I'm interested in knowing the real story :)







 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
My favorite subject!

Still, I have to ask -- how did you write this massive essay, make note of dozens of citations, but still manage to spell it "Elfheim" ?

I appreciate you going into detail about each claim. But I do think that writing out all this "evidence" muddles the points you're trying to make. You're writing out your reasoning in a way that feels like you're talking yourself into the ideas during the draft. I think you could instead summarize your points in a way that actually lends itself to conversation, not give us all of your notes and then make us do the homework in order to reply.

I can't respond to every single claim, or my post would end up just as long as yours. So I'm just going to reply to the ones that caught my eye.

My approach is that SK "ego" was transferred into new armor making him effectively Wicker Man

Agreed, but SK's clearly not exactly like the Wicker Man, which is an assemblage of many souls. It's one soul in one armor. I think invoking the Wicker Man makes the idea sound more faulty than the truth at the core of it—his soul was transferred to the armor.

2. WHO is SK
Well, that's way more tricky than the first point.

Not that tricky. This isn't like a scientific thesis where we have to delineate gravity as a theory, not a law. It's a story that people should be able to follow pretty easily. And so I don't think there's any point in not just spelling out what Miura has over time made clear without any deviations: He was once Emperor Gaiseric. We can say this confidently because of ample context clues: Volume 10's flashback sequence, Slan calling him King, Gedflynn saying he once held audience with him, and of course the crown of spikes on his helmet.

2.1 Is he apostle?
No. He swore to slay godhand/apostles. Brand does not react with him. He is friends with inhabitants of Elfheim. Also, we see the moment of his death, and this usually was the moment sacrifices were made. All of it points to a fact that he did not make a sacrifice.

This notion really doesn't need to be entertained. Apostles are subservient to the God Hand. So how would he have struck at Void, Femto, Slan, etc.? Why would Zodd say that "you have opposed us for 1,000 years" if he were also an apostle?

2.2 Is he branded?
In his current state, no. While Guts was fighting with dead spirits seemed to ignore SK [ch. 91]. Also, in the same chapter, after Guts "win" his fight, the spirits have found "another torch" which was Casca and not SK. Nothing suggests that he is branded in his current form.

It’s actually less clear to me because there’s nothing that proves or disproves the idea of him being branded. You mention the specters not being attracted to him as a proof, but what would they possess? They require flesh. Beyond that, do you recall that Flora applied a talisman to the Berserk Armor that kept specters away? Who's to say SK doesn't also have that applied to his armor? Why shouldn't he? Seems pretty useful!

Instead, the idea of Gaiseric being branded before he died makes a lot of sense. For one, it would be a strange aberration of causality for someone to be INSIDE a sacrificial ceremony and NOT be branded (the only instance I can think of is Theresia, but she was there because she was supposed to get branded). That would be particularly strange given the assumption that the one doing the sacrificing here was Void, someone who we also have to assume had a close connection with Gaiseric. Why would he be left out...? Doesn't really add up.

But also—Guts and Skull Knight are so similar. As Miura kept developing Guts and Skull Knight, he gave us several reasons to compare these two characters. By the end, in 363, Gedflynn even spells it out: "Maybe it’s because he sees his former self in you." They both harbor a deep grudge against the God Hand because their loved ones were killed/damaged by the God Hand, they both wore the Berserk Armor, the Flora/Schierke thing, and on and on it goes.

2.6 How did his beloved died?
Sorry, this entire section is a complete mess. I don't even know where to begin in responding to it.

Seeing the brand in the background of 362 does not mean with certainty that the branded woman died in an incarnation ceremony. It means a mass sacrificial event occured, that's it. You went down a deep rabbit hole by making assumptions based on assumptions, comparing the different ceremonies in a way that led you far afield from anything that feels authentic. I honestly don't think a single one of your guesses is correct.

Split seconds later, Guts realizes "I'm this close, but that sharp pain in the brand's not there...?!", and then he concludes "They're not real." [ch. 164]. The only reason that Guts comes to this conclusion is fact that he is branded. This is what SK meant by saying that Guts brand could be "unanticipated aid" and made them both different [ch. 142].

The brand is of aid to Guts because, as Skull Knight explains, it places him a half-step away from the corporeal world. Not because of this very specific thing with the God Hand's reflection. Guts would have realized those weren't the real thing about 10 seconds into the fight.

SK says, "All moves as if parallel to that time..." [ch. 165]

Did you consider that SK meant it's parallel to the time of the Eclipse in Volume 13, when he and Zodd last squared off...?


So their battle cant really conclude, which is why it's "everlasting".

There's no reason to assume Zodd can't be killed, like any apostle. He's just a powerful warrior AND an apostle, so he's hard to kill. If SK was intent on doing so, he likely could finish Zodd. Storywise, I think Miura was saving that for Guts to demonstrate how he was able to rise above both dead-end paths (SK's and Zodd's).

2.9 What about the Zodd?
That's way more tricky. SK is very old. However Zodd has to be very old too since he recognized Berserk Armor, and asks SK "you would have him follow you... down that same path into hell?" [ch. 226]. Some may argue that he is way younger, since legends of "Nosferatu Zodd" last for only 300 years. However it is important to see the monologue of Zodd from battlefield. He thought "wandering for three hundred years. I guess seeking among man really is useless. I've stood before the apostles so many times... but somehow they're no good" [ch. 128]. It explains why the legend among humans is only 300 years old, while Zodd being much older. It's also interesting that he fought against apostles probably longer than against humans.

Zodd is old, but just because he recognized the Berserk Armor does not mean that he MUST be as old as the Skull Knight. Zodd regularly references 300 years, not just in Vol 17, but also in Vol 5. That's the ceiling as far as I'm concerned. That's when he became an apostle.

When talking about usage of Berserker Armor, Flora says "People may appear to repeat the same mistakes... but karma is by no means a circle. Indeed, it is a spiral. Those children... are not bound to chose the same paths you and I did." to which SK agrees [ch. 222]. So both Flora and SK agreed on the fact that Berserker Armor is extremely dangerous to it's user, so they felt obliged to carve this protective rune which protects "ego" of the wielder.

Given the length of this, I'm surprised you didn't go into this more, but what Flora says here implies a tragedy associated with the armor itself. Of course, it could be simply referring to the death of Gaiseric in the armor (which we witnessed in 362). But ever since that time, I've wondered if it were even more tragic. Perhaps it was the armor that led to the death of Gaiseric's lover. As in, SK did it while on a rampage, and came to his senses too late, mirroring what's almost happened with Guts so many times now. It would be strange if that dire consequence of the armor never actually manifested in the story, don't you think?
 
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Still, I have to ask -- how did you write this massive essay, make note of dozens of citations, but still manage to spell it "Elfheim" ?
Well... this is awkward haha :) I guess I read it that way once, and it stayed with me (I was sure until this moment that it was spelled "Elfheim").

I can't respond to every single claim, or my post would end up just as long as yours.
I would actually love to read that ;) Not the affirmations of the fact's you agree with, but points in story which contradicts my speculations.

But I do think that writing out all this "evidence" muddles the points you're trying to make.
It was thinking about form of my post for some time (before actually registering on forum), and I was afraid it could be received this way...
I have ongoing discussion with my friends about SK - references and quotes were supposed to help recall them specific moments (since we challenge each other's theories). I even made my "essay" longer for purposes of this forum and maybe stated the obvious from time to time (needlessly as it turned out).

It’s actually less clear to me because there’s nothing that proves or disproves the idea of him being branded.
That's true. It's very unclear, since we simply do not have enough information.

I would still argue that SK/Gaiseric was never branded. Flora mentions that her protective sigil on brand "Should reduce the evil spirits it can draw... or at least protect against you yourselves becoming possessed". If sigil on armor works permanently, then why bother putting it again on Guts neck while he is already wearing Berserk Armor [ch. 256]?

For one, it would be a strange aberration of causality for someone to be INSIDE a sacrificial ceremony and NOT be branded
But do we actually know when he entered sacrificial ceremony? SK entered Griffiths ceremony after he already transcended into Femto. From flashbacks, we know that Void already was incarnated.

Void, someone who we also have to assume had a close connection with Gaiseric. Why would he be left out...? Doesn't really add up.
We witness various types of sacrifices, on both ends of spectrum. Beloved ones and hated ones. It's not that easy to tell if he actually was fit sacrifice.

Seeing the brand in the background of 362 does not mean with certainty that the branded woman died in an incarnation ceremony. It means a mass sacrificial event occured, that's it.
My speculations/opinions are far from certainty - otherwise we would call them facts haha :) I wouldn't call this a generic mass sacrificial event. How would SK know that Incarnation Ceremony would happen (every 1000 years)? Also, why would this sacrificial event take place outside of Astral World (as, e.g. Count sacrifice took place) or outside Eclipses "whirlwind". We can see on "flashbacks" that Void's location is entirely covered in tentacles and stuff, yet background is "normal" (stones etc.) during Lady Priestess death. Her brand seems to be pretty "intact" during her death, while it should be flooded with blood during close encounter with godhand member (Void). Many of Miura's "clues" were hidden in visuals, and we can not deny similarity between Incarnation Ceremony and sacrificial event from flashbacks.

The brand is of aid to Guts because, as Skull Knight explains, it places him a half-step away from the corporeal world.
Then how exactly did it help him?

Did you consider that SK meant it's parallel to the time of the Eclipse in Volume 13, when he and Zodd last squared off...?
It may be. Yet consider the fact, that it happens literally at the same time Casca is tied to the pile, and Guts realizes that true Griffith is not there and stops fighting "shadow" of godhand.

Zodd regularly references 300 years, not just in Vol 17, but also in Vol 5.
True, yet he mentions humans both times.

Zodd is old, but just because he recognized the Berserk Armor does not mean that he MUST be as old as the Skull Knight.
Gaiseric was the last person to wear Berserk Armor (1000 years ago). Armor was then hidden by Flora. How could Zodd recognize it? We know no one wear it since Gaiserics death. If it is a common knowledge among apostles, then how did Grunbeld know nothing about it (during fight with Guts)?
 

Walter

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I would still argue that SK/Gaiseric was never branded. Flora mentions that her protective sigil on brand "Should reduce the evil spirits it can draw... or at least protect against you yourselves becoming possessed". If sigil on armor works permanently, then why bother putting it again on Guts neck while he is already wearing Berserk Armor [ch. 256]?
I actually messed that part up. There are two things at work here—the symbol etched into the armor protects Guts' ego from being overtaken. And the symbol painted over the brand masks the brand's presence to things like specters. Still, what would the specters possess if they forced themselves on SK (sounds funny)?

Like I said, it's inconclusive no matter how you slice it. I just think there's more weight on the thematic side of the story for him being branded than otherwise.

But do we actually know when he entered sacrificial ceremony? SK entered Griffiths ceremony after he already transcended into Femto. From flashbacks, we know that Void already was incarnated.
True, we know hardly any specifics about the event from 1,000 years ago. Then again, that cuts both ways right? And when he crashed through the eclipse, it seemed like a rather exceptional occurrence to me.

We witness various types of sacrifices, on both ends of spectrum. Beloved ones and hated ones. It's not that easy to tell if he actually was fit sacrifice.
If the parallel of SK/Guts is supported by Miura's own writing, then why not take a small leap to Void/Griffith being their parallel adversaries, too? You were already willing to offer the theory of the wise man being Void (which I also subscribe to). If Gaiseric was the author of that man's pain and eventual descent into the series of events that led to him becoming Void (hmm, sounds like Griffith in a weird way, hm?), then it's not that hard to imagine he'd have some very special feelings for him.

I wouldn't call this a generic mass sacrificial event.
Neither would I. It was one that created a God Hand member, based on the way the scene is shown (would they really peel back the curtain just to show us an apostle ceremony? if so, then where's the apostle?)

How would SK know that Incarnation Ceremony would happen (every 1000 years)?
How does SK know most of what he does? He has (had?) an inside source.

Also, why would this sacrificial event take place outside of Astral World (as, e.g. Count sacrifice took place) or outside Eclipses "whirlwind". We can see on "flashbacks" that Void's location is entirely covered in tentacles and stuff, yet background is "normal" (stones etc.) during Lady Priestess death.
I think you're drawing too much meaning from a ground texture. Who's to say they weren't there in the astral world at that moment? But even if you want to emphasize that texture, perhaps what we see in 362 is the event as it is ending. So we see a before (tentacles) and after (woman dying).

Her brand seems to be pretty "intact" during her death, while it should be flooded with blood during close encounter with godhand member (Void).
Was she that close...? The fact the brand isn't bleeding tells us all we need to know. There'd be no difference between a fresh brand and an established brand anyway, right?

Many of Miura's "clues" were hidden in visuals, and we can not deny similarity between Incarnation Ceremony and sacrificial event from flashbacks.
There's nothing hidden about that giant ass brand though. Does it visually evoke the incarnation ceremony? Sure. But that doesn't mean this was absolutely another incarnation ceremony. Because if you look carefully at it there are crisscrossed lines in the brand, which if anything, to me look like city streets from afar. So the brand we see was on the capital city itself—which falls in line with what little we know of the events from the capital's collapse in Gaiseric's legend.

Then how exactly did it help him?
Precisely like the Skull Knight explains to Guts in their scene in Volume 18. The brand places Guts slightly outside the reason of the world. So for a small instance, he can act during a junction of time and make a difference, just as Skull Knight does.

True, yet he mentions humans both times.
What would be the purpose in distinguishing how long he's fought each type of being...? Anyway, check Volume 5's scene again, specifically episode 4. He's referring to fighting for 300 years, implying that's how long he's been a warrior seeking the strong.

Gaiseric was the last person to wear Berserk Armor (1000 years ago). Armor was then hidden by Flora. How could Zodd recognize it? We know no one wear it since Gaiserics death. If it is a common knowledge among apostles, then how did Grunbeld know nothing about it (during fight with Guts)?
Sure, that's the puzzle. And I don't really have a great answer for this. But I'm not willing to bet the farm that Zodd is 1,000 years old just because he referenced the Berserk Armor, as it goes in the face of all his 300 years stuff. I think there may (have been) another missing puzzle piece for sorting this all out. But we might not get it now.
 
Still, what would the specters possess if they forced themselves on SK (sounds funny)?
Yeah, that wouldn't work I guess.

Void says about brand that "The lives of those engraved with the brand.. are our demonic offerings. To the last drop of blood. To the moment of agonizing death.". SK explains later that dead spirits desire Guts warm flesh and blood. I guess even if SK was branded during lifetime, it would not matter now, since he both died, and has no flesh now.

How does SK know most of what he does? He has (had?) an inside source.
That's a possible explanation, yet more plausible to me is that SK is actually re-living all those (not exactly the same) events from past.

Neither would I. It was one that created a God Hand member, based on the way the scene is shown (would they really peel back the curtain just to show us an apostle ceremony? if so, then where's the apostle?)
Then why there was no eclipse?

[...] perhaps what we see in 362 is the event as it is ending [...]
True, it could be possible explanation.

Was she that close...?
Well, I would say that if it was normal sacrifice, she would (like Count's daughter). But if it was mass sacrifice, she wouldn't. However during mass sacrifice (like Incarnation Ceremony), there were no brands engraved.

There's nothing hidden about that giant ass brand though.
By "hidden" I mean things that are visually similar, and after some time, they are confirmed.

Does it visually evoke the incarnation ceremony? Sure. But that doesn't mean this was absolutely another incarnation ceremony.
There is no absolute certainty in speculations, that's true. But some could say many years ago "Does SK visually evoke the Gaiseric? Just because he has skull helmet?". Yet there are still people, who suggest that SK was actually not Gaiseric, but some other random, never mentioned, king ;)

So the brand we see was on the capital city itself
I agree on that. That's also what makes me think it's actually Incarnation Ceremony. During Femtos Incarnation, new world was born. During previous Incarnation, old world was buried.

The brand places Guts slightly outside the reason of the world.
Good point.

Anyway, check Volume 5's scene again, specifically episode 4.
Actually, there is very important line "Maybe that's why i've remained alive these three hundred years". However it is very vague how apostles life/death works. Wyald seemed to be afraid to die in physical world [ch. 68/69]. It was like summoning eclipse/entering astral world would grant him survival. So maybe there is big risk in fighting in physical world as apostle.

For now I still lean towards 1000 year old Zodd, because of his Berserk Armor knowledge, and it's difficult to find any suggestions on how could he posses this knowledge. Only one I got is that Floras mansion (BA location) Spirit Tree rotted about two hundred years ago - maybe it was Zodd doings?
 
The purpose of the discussion was not to cause pain, but to find inaccuracies in my approach :) Each reader of this manga creates his own image of the story and it's obvious they won't overlap (that would be boring). The reason why I created this post was to challenge my image of SK in search of contradictions with manga. And we've already found at least one (the "Elfheim" thing haha).
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
The purpose of the discussion was not to cause pain, but to find inaccuracies in my approach :) Each reader of this manga creates his own image of the story and it's obvious they won't overlap (that would be boring). The reason why I created this post was to challenge my image of SK in search of contradictions with manga. And we've already found at least one (the "Elfheim" thing haha).

No offense but your post is rife with inaccuracies, misconceptions, wrong deductions and the like. So many, in fact, that I think it's beyond hope (so don't ask me to help!). Misspelling Elfhelm is really the least of your problems here. That said, since you seem to care, you should know that individual issues of Berserk are called episodes and not chapters. We cover it in this thread.
 
No offense but your post is rife with inaccuracies, misconceptions, wrong deductions and the like. So many, in fact, that I think it's beyond hope (so don't ask me to help!).
None taken :) Also, participation in the discussion is voluntary. I did encourage the willing to challenge my view, but I wont ask anyone to participate (because it would be pointless and forced). Inaccuracies, misconceptions, wrong deductions are hollow words, considering speculative nature of my post. Sometimes all we can do is agree to disagree, but sometimes we can point out contradiction with source, which is necessary and sufficient condition to refute some (even speculative) argument.

Misspelling Elfhelm is really the least of your problems here. That said, since you seem to care, you should know that individual issues of Berserk are called episodes and not chapters. We cover it in this thread.
Note taken ;) Yet I've decided not to alter my original post since it would invalidate point made by Walter.
 
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