Near Death Experiences and the Afterlife (or brain=mind?)

So, has anyone looked into this? (or better yet, experienced one, or an out of body experience?)

It's something I've been reading about for the past couple of months, starting from a casual (as in a longtime hobby) interest in mythology, psychological archetypes, a little archaeology (specifically on the Indo-Europeans), and whatever I can understand of physics among other interests (I'm not some erudite robotic genius in any way, so among these "other" interests we're talking about Warcraft, :ganishka:)... predictably, a book called the Quantum and the Lotus was a quick snatch for me. It wasn't until I read it the second time with a better understanding, that I felt it had opened me up mentally to looking into more far-fetched things. Eventually, indirect things here and there (yay for being vague so I can get to the point!) lead me to this topic.

So being the kid with too much spare time on their hands, I tried. I'd say I've gone through the same conditioning in life as most everyone else, enough to be pretty skeptical about this kind of thing, you know? For starts, I threw in "Life After Life" onto my reading list (and it was short, so it skipped a few others in line :chomp:). When I finished, I had enough genuine curiosity built up to look for more information. That persistence is still with me as I continue to look, but I feel like I need to touch base with someone.

By now my ideas of near death experiences being hallucinations, some sort of biologically/psychologically ingrained coping mechanism, whatever I, with the powers of common sense and reasoning :???:, could come up with, had been addressed. There was just something that could be argued for it otherwise, or an explanation, or it was just irrelevant. Whether they're decent and credible is up for debate (and I'll just leave it at that for now).

After reading everything I'm able to understand (and again, not nearly done) from as many sources as I can manage to get my hands on (there is SO much garbage information on it too, even repeating information people hadn't realized was already established), I can't help but feel that there's enough convincing evidence to put it on the consideration table. Not just for me, but for others too, if only they'd just look. For me personally, I'm convinced it's something very probable. And I feel like I'd be getting the crazy look for trying to share that (you, my patient reader, might be cocking the ol' eyebrow as you read this :serpico:)

But it really makes me wonder, why isn't this stuff talked about more? Without the ridiculous light that's been put on it, or the deterrence's like it being too taboo and morbid to even think about. Or peoples' quick-to-stick religious associations (conclusions? validations?) to it, making other people all the more ready to dismiss it (faith can't be proven after all). Is this just a matter of open-mindedness? Apathy?

Or, even though I trust my judgement, am I a fool?

Maybe someone else might have some insight? I haven't been able to talk to anyone else about this, and Berserk dances along these lines somewhat, so here's hoping.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
spineylamb said:
I can't help but feel that there's enough convincing evidence to put it on the consideration table.

What is "it" in this sentence? The existence of an afterlife?

spineylamb said:
But it really makes me wonder, why isn't this stuff talked about more? Without the ridiculous light that's been put on it, or the deterrence's like it being too taboo and morbid to even think about. Or peoples' quick-to-stick religious associations (conclusions? validations?) to it, making other people all the more ready to dismiss it (faith can't be proven after all). Is this just a matter of open-mindedness? Apathy?

I think a lot of people talk about it, just not from a purely scientific point of view. And for good reason: how can you truly apply scientific rigor and analysis to something like that? I'm sure some people tried, and the reason we don't hear about it is because they couldn't find anything conclusive.

Now to be honest I was never really interested in the subject, so I don't know much about it and I'd like to hear what you have to say. :serpico:
 

Lithrael

Remember, always hold your apple tight
I'm generally interested as well and love to get into pointless internet debates with people who have axes to grind on such subjects. My axe is materialist and notes that NDEs generally fall into 3 categories (with some overlap).

First, there's the common experiences that are reported by many people worldwide: the tunnel, the light, OOBEs... these seem to be mechanistic, what the brain will often 'do' when shutting down from lack of oxygen. Test pilots in centrifuges often report the same experiences. Despite what you'll often hear there are as yet no reliable indications that people experiencing an OOBE can see anything that they didn't already know about; they appear to be 'dreaming' what's on top of the fridge or on the other side of the partition. It is also fully possible to induce the 'same' feeling as an OOBE using VR, suggesting that it's related to an error in the 'body awareness' sense.

Second, there's explicitly religious/afterlife experiences. A terror of hell, a welcoming to heaven, meeting deceased loved ones. If there are specific religious aspects, these always line up with the religious beliefs of the subject. These look to me like appropriate subconscious reactions to the situation; essentially dreams.

Third, there's the more random experiences. A sudden vivid memory, 'life flashing before your eyes,' and other similar strong imagery. These look like the same thing as above, to me. They are also the experiences most likely to be interpreted by the subject as, essentially, dreams.

What ideas are you chewing over?
 
Aazealh said:
What is "it" in this sentence? The existence of an afterlife?
Yeah.
While I'm happy with the invitation to share, I don't feel that it would be fair to present the case at my level. :judo:

And I welcome friendly discussion over it, Lithrael :serpico: I don't believe in absolutes, so I'm only 80ish% convinced, but I can take a crack at what you've brought up (I am totally afraid of that axe though)
Lithrael said:
First, there's the common experiences that are reported by many people worldwide: the tunnel, the light, OOBEs... these seem to be mechanistic, what the brain will often 'do' when shutting down from lack of oxygen. Test pilots in centrifuges often report the same experiences.
Yeah. Actually, researches have probed the right temporal lobe of the brain and artificially stimulated the sense of being out of your body (to a point), and I've read about training Navy pilots reporting having out of body experience when they pass out from G forces. But they don't report other things associated with the experience, and they especially don't report other things associated with having a deep one: they don't change their lives afterward. As for the shutting down from lack of oxygen, off the top of my head this (usually overlooked) study by Dutch scientists that took place not too long ago attempted to rule that out: http://www.iands.org/research/important_studies/dutch_nde_study_attracts_worldwide_attention.html
also the case of Ms. Pam Reynolds... actually, I found a Time article that mentions both of these (conveniently at the start) and much more if you want to read past that: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1657919-2,00.html
Lithrael said:
Despite what you'll often hear there are as yet no reliable indications that people experiencing an OOBE can see anything that they didn't already know about
Professionals like doctors and nurses are often the witnesses to a clinically dead person reporting that they were able to tell them in detail what they were experiencing while they were "dead", as well as describing rooms of the hospital they had never seen before, what was being said while they were out, etc. It's a pile up of instances like these that have fueled attempts to run studies in the first place, I'd think.

As someone that's interested in nursing, I've come across an article in a Nursing periodical (April 2007) trying to inform nurses on the proper way to handle a patient that's just had an NDE, and I was surprised at how much "respect" to the phenomenone it gave it. It cautioned "don't challenge or trivialize his experience and don't assume he's had a 'religious' experience or define it for him... If you're ill at ease with this conversation, find a colleague who's more knowledgeable or comfortable discussing an NDE. Document his description of the NDE so that the team is aware of the patient's perception." The article acknowledged them, as well as how to support the patient and even stated "Although NDEs are more common than many people realize, they're not well understood."

OOBs are something that've been reported for a long time, and I'd think to be worthy of its own independent research (even though it's usually related). Quantum Physics (which we really can't test either a lot of times, oy) has overlapped in trying to explain things regarding NDEs, but for the OOBE's, if you'll forgive my linking of a youtube video, this is one of the possible thoughts on it (up until the 4:00 mark): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-sk2qW1tcc

But especially considering things like the whole wave-particle duality (and the observer effect), which is its own animal that I've got a couple print-outs worth of people trying to explain their ideas (in my own dumbed-down words, propositions like that we're tuned into a certain frequency, or the similiarities with how our brains perceive our environment being likened to a projector), we really can't bust our heads over it too much when we can't even study the basics of OOBEs in the lab all that well. I haven't looked too much into OOBE's, but I've heard of a study involving electromagnetic stimulation to the brain (overheard casually on my Discovery News podcast and never followed up on it) that was probably also stimulation to the temporal lobe like I mentioned earlier, as well as a case of a woman that had half of her brain removed (the analytical side, which I think is the left side?) and said she felt like she felt the presence of herself next to her or something. Oh yeah, I do remember a study done by this professor that had found someone that had OOBEs in her sleep, and he would write random letters and numbers on a card somewhere in the room and the woman would wake up and write down what she, going around the room, had seen was on the card. This last experiment hasn't been replicated, so right now it's just not much use to anyone.
Lithrael said:
Second, there's explicitly religious/afterlife experiences. A terror of hell, a welcoming to heaven, meeting deceased loved ones. If there are specific religious aspects, these always line up with the religious beliefs of the subject. These look to me like appropriate subconscious reactions to the situation; essentially dreams.Third, there's the more random experiences. A sudden vivid memory, 'life flashing before your eyes,' and other similar strong imagery. These look like the same thing as above, to me. They are also the experiences most likely to be interpreted by the subject as, essentially, dreams.
Yeah, NDErs of the classical variety (you can run down the checklist of elements that happened that are in common with other ones) pretty much never have the same experience. And definitely, whatever their perception is will be forced onto what they're experiencing, but I subscribe to the thought that it's their way of making sense out of something they don't understand. If it's true about entering a "place" that they commonly have trouble describing that has no sense of time, where feelings are amplified, and where they're not even in their normal physical body, it's probably a great chance for their subconscious to kick in and symbolize things for them like when we're dreaming.

One thing I'd like to stress is that there -have- been studies on this particular phenomenone. A book I'm on the lookout for at the libraries I have access to is http://www.amazon.com/Scole-Experiment-Scientific-Evidence-After/dp/0749921056/ref=cm_cr-mr-title If you check out the reviewer at the bottom, he rattles off a list of noteable researchers, only 3 of them I'm really all that familiar with I'm afraid to admit :serpico: but I'm still going at it.

If anything I've brought up is mistaken, unclear, or just wrong, point them out and I'll clarify, elaborate, or apologize! Like I said, I don't feel ready, and I don't feel like the right person to represent the case for it. But I'll try :D
 
This topic is a rabbit hole. You can keep going and going. Is the after life spiritual or scientific? Is the mind the spirit. The being? Is the afterlife just a dream of wacked out adaptions of life's past experiences.

I don't know whats true. All I know is I don't want "bliss" or "a blur" when I pass. If there is a land of some cloud kingdom or my own planet. I gladly take it. I've lived a honest life, I would like to trust that I have a afterlife as reward. If there isn't, well when I pass away I guess I won't have much to say about that.

But yeah this can go on and on. Ever see the movie "flat liners?"
 
Death May Die said:
This topic is a rabbit hole. You can keep going and going. Is the after life spiritual or scientific? Is the mind the spirit. The being? Is the afterlife just a dream of wacked out adaptions of life's past experiences.

I don't know whats true. All I know is I don't want "bliss" or "a blur" when I pass. If there is a land of some cloud kingdom or my own planet. I gladly take it. I've lived a honest life, I would like to trust that I have a afterlife as reward. If there isn't, well when I pass away I guess I won't have much to say about that.

But yeah this can go on and on. Ever see the movie "flat liners?"
I think I did before I was interested in this, and I think I though tit was stupid, :badbone:. I guess I'd have to see it again with fresh eyes.

I'd say the closest to this stuff I can think of would be the book "What Dreams May Come", something I read years ago and haven't seen mentioned at all so far.

I also think you have the right idea in terms of this whole subject. If there really is something "underneath it all", why worry about it? Just do your life the best way you know how, and don't believe everything you hear 100% as the truth. Scientists are still people, and the field, despite all of its peer reviewing and attempts at exactness, -does- have biases tangled within it. I'm afraid some people are so atheist, they aren't willing to budge in their thinking, and I think that's just about the same thing as being overly religious. A lot of scientists also are taking the word of those before them, not bothering to double check the basics (there's math behind it that makes sense, enough to allow us to apply it to technology reliably enough, but we still can't find a bridge between the fields for the very very small, and the very very large. Hmmm).

As technology's advanced, more people have been resuscitated from death, so this has become a more common phenomenone. The advancement of technology also goes hand in hand with more sophisticated instruments for detecting things our physical 5 senses just couldn't before. It'd be different if it was just an ocean of anecdotal evidence, but it doesn't seem to be just that.

So, because science is mankind's attempt to understand it's world, I'd say this is worth trying to understand as well.
 
I gotta admit, at times I've been curious about the afterlife. However then I realized that I would find out sooner or later so why spend time from my life wondering about it.

Imho all the near death experiences and afterlife stories I've heard of were absolutely and completely ridiculous. I'd go so far as to say that it's a not too shabby way of making money.
 

nomad

"Bring the light of day"
I generally tend to ignore topics like these (no offense btw). But if you're that interested in this sort of thing, I can pretty much tell you my own personal experience in the matter. When I was 14, I had a bad cold. So me with my willing self mental state of "I'm invincible" decided to join my sisters friends on our pool at a 50 degree rainy weather. Little did I know that 1 hour after the event peacefully watching my Robotech series, suddenly I couldn't breathe. Just like that. I knew I was running out of time so I ran to my parents and they grasped what I was trying to say. So in the mix of panic and confusion, I was carried to our car and my father took me to the best damn car drive I ever had =p. Recklessly in his attempt to reach the hospital I only remember not being able to hold on anymore. My airway was shut completely at that time. Next thing I know, I closed my eyes (suddenly became really tired). In all seriousness my panic slowly drifted away, it was one of those feelings where you go "AAaaaaaaaaahhhh" in a good non-sexual way (for you pervs out there). I didn't hear anything, didn't see anything. I only felt lighter and lighter by the second. All of a sudden I feel a massive pressure on my chest, I can hear things again forcing me to wake up. Next thing I know, I opened my eyes with 3 doctors and a shit ton of nurses inserting tubes through my mouth. Apparently I had an inflammation in my esophagus which in spanish they called it "Cru" ( I tried looking up for the english word but meh.... I'm lazy as hell tonight). cutting out the air circulation. Flat lined for 7 minutes... but in honesty, It felt like I just fell asleep for a couple of seconds. That's my own "death" experience. Sorry no goblins or angels were sighted.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
spineylamb said:
But they don't report other things associated with the experience, and they especially don't report other things associated with having a deep one: they don't change their lives afterward.

I think you need to detail those other things. As for "changing their lives", that seems to be a highly subjective and unreliable factor. Any event perceived as important by someone can spark a desire to change their life. And it can be done without anything big happening either.

spineylamb said:
Professionals like doctors and nurses are often the witnesses to a clinically dead person reporting that they were able to tell them in detail what they were experiencing while they were "dead", as well as describing rooms of the hospital they had never seen before, what was being said while they were out, etc. It's a pile up of instances like these that have fueled attempts to run studies in the first place, I'd think.

That's interesting, but are there actual documented reports of these occurrences? It would be interesting to study them in detail. That Times article you posted was interesting, but it doesn't seem to be taking the route of afterlife as an explanation for NDEs.

spineylamb said:
I'm afraid some people are so atheist, they aren't willing to budge in their thinking, and I think that's just about the same thing as being overly religious.

Why even bring religion into it? People can be skeptic of something that's unproven without it necessarily relating to their religious beliefs or absence thereof.

spineylamb said:
The advancement of technology also goes hand in hand with more sophisticated instruments for detecting things our physical 5 senses just couldn't before.

And what have those detected so far in regard to NDEs?
 
Note: It's funny, but if anyone saw this (incomplete) post made earlier, that was probably from my cat Miumiu hitting my touchpad's buttons at some point while I went afk to wash some dishes. Does anyone else have a cat that has a fascination for being around the damn keyboard? It's pretty dog-ate-my-homework, but @_@. Anyway!
---
Thanks for sharing your experience Nomad. I'm definitely open to ANY information anyone can provide me with to further understand this, but you came across as kinda... sneery (in my experience, the 'no offense' disclaimer is a flag for a little contempt). Anyway, I'll do my best at a reply :D

I don't really know how to say what I would think would be a general (I actually want to say "obvious") understanding that not everyone that comes close to death has (what is qualified as) a near death experience. That also, interestingly enough, works the other way; you don't have to be on the brink of death to have one of these. People arguing for NDE's actually use this as a way to refute claims that NDEs are just the result of a dying brain: the neurotransmitters are shutting down, creating this beautiful illusion for you as you die. So if it's a physiological response, wouldn't everyone have one?

-------kind of boring, feel free to skip! IANDS, btw, is "International Association for Near Death Studies" and I honestly haven't looked into them much.
Here's a somewhat related study though, and I can't link to something for you to look at but the researcher would be a "Bruce Greyson". He asked volunteers from a high concentration of people that have claimed to have NDEs (which would be 262 of the approximately 1000 or so members of IANDS) and then volunteers from the psychiatric clinic he had access to (which was 272 out of the 832 outpatients over the course of a year) to fill out a questionnaire.
41 (so 53%) of the people from the clinic that had claimed to have had an NDE, had one- measuring it on the NDE scale (Greyson, 1983) -and the rest of the claimers (47%, or 37 of them) just didn't qualify. Only 20 (10%) out of the 194 participants that didn't make a claim to having had an NDE had actually had one (leaving 90% of the people from the clinic that were right about not having had some crazy NDE!) Predictably, a high number of the people that were members of IANDS were fairly knowledgeable about what NDEs were, and while their table was interesting too, I don't think it's worth spamming even more numbers on here.
Anyway, I hope that was clear enough... but basically, while inconclusive without more studies done, that's a sign that not everyone that says they have had one really did (going by the criteria of the NDE scale, or the WCEI which is the "weighted core experience index"; Ring 1980), while at the same time, not everyone that had one shares or even knows they had one (possibly denial, but that's another train of thought that we don't need until this is more solid).
------end of study spam
There seem to be people in the population that keep their experience to themselves, afraid of being called crazy. A pretty high-profile person I can use as an example would be Elizabeth Taylor. I'm not sure how legitimate this magazine is, but I get the feeling it's a genuine interview with the woman: http://www.aumag.org/coverstory/feb03cover.html You'd have to do a ctrl+f search for the wording, try "afterlife".

Anyway, addressing Aazealh's post after a break.
 

nomad

"Bring the light of day"
spineylamb said:
Thanks for sharing your experience Nomad. I'm definitely open to ANY information anyone can provide me with to further understand this, but you came across as kinda... sneery (in my experience, the 'no offense' disclaimer is a flag for a little contempt). Anyway, I'll do my best at a reply :D
Trust me, I wasn't being sneery at all. So I apologize if I gave that impression. It's just a topic that normally I think twice before posting since well, as said before CAN be a rabbits hole if you will. I just try not to get into these things on forums, such as politics and religion as well. I don't exactly know where my experience falls down to. But the facts were my heart stopped, and well... received numerous brain scans to check for damage. So I guess that could fall under the "death" experience. All I can tell you from my perspective was that it felt good. Sounds scary but I'm just being honest.
 

Okin

The Ultimate Battle Creature
Hippocrates once wrote that the only reason medicine can exist on earth is because we can practice our methods through experience, while above and below the earth, we have no such opportunity. That was the first big break between science and philosophy.

And yes, I have a source.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0248%3Atext%3DPrisc.

Unless we start putting people forcefully through out of body experiences (mental trauma and psychedelics?), we really have no way to practice our theories. So it really is just speculation.
 
Okin said:
Hippocrates once wrote that the only reason medicine can exist on earth is because we can practice our methods through experience, while above and below the earth, we have no such opportunity. That was the first big break between science and philosophy.

Sure. Also, one of the earliest mentions of an NDE description was also made by Plato (although not quite directly by him) http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.11.x.html If you do a word search for "measure", you can see them discussing something similar to what Hippocrates' quote was about. Shortly after that would be the tale of the soldier Er.
Okin said:
Unless we start putting people forcefully through out of body experiences (mental trauma and psychedelics?), we really have no way to practice our theories.
Actually, you supposedly can have an OBE through deep meditation. OBE's on their own might be a lot easier to explain. :D

First of all, meditation's connection with NDEs:
"Since many who meditate have experiences very similar to those of near death the authors postulate a similar mechanism, which could include the mind not being "local" to the brain." (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/310/6988/1211?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=near+death+experience&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT)

Here's a study done on Buddhist Monks during meditation:
"'scans provided remarkable clues about what goes on in the brain during meditation. There was an increase in activity in the front part of the brain, the area that is activated when anyone focuses attention on a particular task,' Dr Newberg explained. 'In addition, a notable decrease in activity in the back part of the brain, or parietal lobe, recognised as the area responsible for orientation, reinforced the general suggestion that meditation leads to a lack of spatial awareness.' Dr Newberg explained: 'During meditation, people have a loss of the sense of self and frequently experience a sense of no space and time and that was exactly what we saw.' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1847442.stm)

This might also be related to one of the common aspects of NDE's being that there is no sense of time or space in the "spiritual realm". I have three pages worth of print out of non-stop quotes mentioning just this lack of space and time described by experiencers, but I obviously can't link to those physical pages, so I ask that you just take my word for it that it's mentioned often.
For anyone pressed to read more on the connection --> http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/127/2/243
------
But there is still more to be explained, which is why I'm not satisfied. Addressing Aazealh now.

Aazealh said:
I think you need to detail those other things. As for "changing their lives", that seems to be a highly subjective and unreliable factor. Any event perceived as important by someone can spark a desire to change their life. And it can be done without anything big happening either.
Elements I consider common (no link since you can probably even wiki this): peacefulness and probably warmth; a sensation (sound effect might accompany it, and it can be a pull, a gentle sliding, a more violent yank, it varies) of separating from your body; an out of body experience (no pain, pronounced disconnection from your physical body, being able to move around the room, lots of times senses are enhanced, being able to witness others around your body or travel elsewhere if you choose, and there's also been mention several times of a sort of "x-ray" vision of multiple rooms); sometimes there's mention of a chord; there's almost always a tunnel (it varies how you go through it); meeting with deceased relatives, including ones you had never met before and people that aren't related to you biologically); a being of light that seems to elicit feelings of unconditional love and advanced understanding (many people seem to interpret this being according to their belief system, although they seem to be mistaken because there are multiple accounts mentioning more than one of these light beings); a life review (also very common, but doesn't seem to be as common cross-culturally from what I've read); an indescribable "environment" or a beautiful setting (it's one of the many things that are probably molded into something more interpretable by the experiencer in an attempt to understand or feel more comfortable. Seems to be a garden/park often enough); a lack of time and space; a reluctance to return the "longer" they're there (many even say it feels like the natural state to be in); a returning to the body (I want to say it almost always happens instantaneously. Reasons vary);
usually the event is followed with the changes in their perspectives on life http://www.victorzammit.com/book/4thedition/chapter06.html (scroll down to "common after-effects") I threw in some lesser brought up ones, but from the stories I've heard, they were also pretty common. I actually have more (such as the being having a sense of humor, or suddenly tapping into a knowledge you weren't aware of having before) but that's enough I'd think.

Personally, I was reminded of Maslow's self actualization: http://www.panarchy.org/maslow/being.1955.html (skim the list at the top), and I'd like to point out after the line break his excited belief that there is an intrinsic good in everyone.

Aazealh said:
That's interesting, but are there actual documented reports of these occurrences? It would be interesting to study them in detail.

It's just commonly brought up in NDE literature that the victim was able to recall things going on around them while they were out, to their witness' surprise. But if you can't take my word for it: "...people who are able to recall specific details of the resuscitation attempts, so in other words a form of consciousness has had to have been present for them to come back and tell us what was happening to them." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1685311.stm) Other-wise there's no records being kept, so this can pretty much fall under hear-say like so many other things. :(

Aazealh said:
That Times article you posted was interesting, but it doesn't seem to be taking the route of afterlife as an explanation for NDEs.

Why even bring religion into it? People can be skeptic of something that's unproven without it necessarily relating to their religious beliefs or absence thereof.
And what have those detected so far in regard to NDEs?

I was just speaking generally about better technology. :D I'm a believer in the human race still having space for technological advancement. It's just a matter of time before we can explain paranormal activity I'd say. For this in particular, if we don't figure it out during our life time, we'll find out afterward won't we :b

And it's true about the skepticism. But I think if you're going to look into something like this (bearing a stigma that's kept many fearful of it, especially in terms of their reputation, or, due to its old and global nature, has possibly been at the origins of religious movements), it's not the ideal to be leaning too viciously towards one side (except unless you're studying it?). Eh, that's my opinion though.

Finally, while the Times article wasn't doing that, I will say I got to the idea due to NDEs being related (in this case, many NDEers claim that you reincarnate) to other phenomenon. If you have any time, try taking a look at this documentary about a boy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdmMEKPFDTY&feature=PlayList&p=E66242EAE6518F01&index=0&playnext=1

But if you don't have time, might I ask that you look and listen to a real NDEer telling their story? I probably should've done it sooner, since it's kind of silly to just jump directly to the boring text on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFQZQYaBL_U

Whew. I'd also like to note that these sources I'm linking are fresh to me as well. They're not what I came across originally for info, but they definitely feed me! (and remind me on how much more I have to read).
 
Thanks for sharing Hoc.

Well, for anyone interested in this topic, I finally came to a pretty satisfactory conclusion. I'm also surprised by how hard it was to find, and really just surprised by how little known about it is, even among "experts", skeptics, and experiencers.

Anyway, all of these feelings of spirituality and paranormal stuff comes from a molecule chain that's produced in our (very under-studied) pineal gland, a tiny pea-sized gland that is tucked in the middle of our brain, near the pituitary gland. The drug produced is called Dimethyltriptamine (or DMT for short).

In 1990, I began the first new human research with psychedelic, or hallucinogenic, drugs in the United States in over 20 years. These studies investigated the effects of N,N-dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, an extremely short-acting and powerful psychedelic. During the project's five years, I administered approximately 400 doses of DMT to 60 human volunteers. This research took place at the University of New Mexico's School of Medicine in Albuquerque, where I was tenured Associate Professor of Psychiatry.

I was drawn to DMT because of its presence in all of our bodies. Perhaps excessive DMT production, coming from the mysterious pineal gland, was involved in naturally occurring "psychedelic" states. These might include birth, death and near-death, psychosis, and mystical experiences. Only later, while the study was well under way, did I also begin considering DMT's role in the "alien abduction" experience.

I'd like to point out that Dr.Rick Strassman is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist (which is in the realm of social science and to my knowledge, aren't considered medical doctors) like many other people investigating spirituality-type cases are.

What's wild about this drug, is it's found naturally in not just people, but animals and plants as well. Infact, DMT is released when we sleep (and for anyone that knows anything about dreaming, you know you have to dream at some point in sleep or you'll come across problems). Apparently, the more DMT is produced, the harder it is to remember the experience (a thought is that your brain is protecting you).

Everything considered, I really believe this is the explanation for these experiences. I'm surprised I didn't come across it sooner because it's brought up in history a couple of times (my favorite reference in it's having been called the "third eye", and certain reptiles literally have a cornea and retina on it, even though it's also deep inside their brain; by the way, it's apparently light-sensitive even without all that).

As psyched about this as I am, it still doesn't resolve whether mind = brain. But I'm not done looking :D
 

Lithrael

Remember, always hold your apple tight
Oh, wow, DMT. Yes. DMT is some amazing and effing powerful shit indeed!! The accounts I've read of people experimenting with it are pretty amazing.

I'm sorry I didn't get back to reply to this properly, I've just been hella busy. But as one of those closed minded skeptics that guys like Zammit can't stand, I want to point out the kind of thing that gets off track over a conversation and might give the wrong impression to both sides of a debate. I mentioned the lack of properly backed up cases of OOBE's seeing things they could not have seen and you countered with properly backed up OOBE's where people were aware of what was going on around them. But I actually agree heartily that there are cases where people have memories of things that were going on when they were out or under or clinically dead, and that's good evidence for the idea of perception continuing despite unconsciousness. I specifically meant there are no properly backed up cases where the person observed something they could only have seen from an actual different position than they were really in, as though they were really-for-real outside their body. And as far as the medical profession treating NDE's seriously - well of course they do! These are often powerful and moving experiences no matter what the cause and should not be crapped on.

Zammit's not the best guy to be reading though; even in the paranormal community he's considered pretty untenable. He's a huge fan of EVP too, which, I haven't yet seen anything that even hints at the idea that EVP is not crap and pareidolia applied to static, background noise, and/or fragments of phone/radio signals.

Most of what you've presented is pretty straightforward though and happily I have little or no disagreement with it. :guts:

ETA: Oh, except the quantum stuff. 99% of quantum physicists will tell you that 99% of non quantum physicists who talk about quantum anything are talking directly out of their butt. The remaining 1% of quantum physicists like to think fancifully so they don't die of how boring the math is.
 
Lithrael said:
99% of quantum physicists will tell you that 99% of non quantum physicists who talk about quantum anything are talking directly out of their butt. The remaining 1% of quantum physicists like to think fancifully so they don't die of how boring the math is.

Well, all I really gotta say about the quantum stuff is, a lot of that stuff is pretty hard to test and confirm in the first place. But ('cause of things like the Large Hadron Collider), maybe we can get some answers in our lifetime. :serpico:
 

Okin

The Ultimate Battle Creature
spineylamb said:
Anyway, all of these feelings of spirituality and paranormal stuff comes from a molecule chain that's produced in our (very under-studied) pineal gland, a tiny pea-sized gland that is tucked in the middle of our brain, near the pituitary gland. The drug produced is called Dimethyltriptamine (or DMT for short).

What's wild about this drug, is it's found naturally in not just people, but animals and plants as well. Infact, DMT is released when we sleep (and for anyone that knows anything about dreaming, you know you have to dream at some point in sleep or you'll come across problems). Apparently, the more DMT is produced, the harder it is to remember the experience (a thought is that your brain is protecting you).

I'm actually very content with that answer, thank you.

spineylamb said:
Everything considered, I really believe this is the explanation for these experiences. I'm surprised I didn't come across it sooner because it's brought up in history a couple of times (my favorite reference in it's having been called the "third eye", and certain reptiles literally have a cornea and retina on it, even though it's also deep inside their brain; by the way, it's apparently light-sensitive even without all that).

I've heard of the light sensitive spot that reptiles have, but I never realized that was the pineal gland. I just assumed it was a specialized sensory organ unique to certain reptiles. The pineal gland has a large role in maintaining our circadian rhythms by producing melatonin as well as its role in dreams and near-death experiences.

 
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