Enough strawmans. Can we get some modus tollens please?
Actually I seem to remember someone scoring zero once. Anyways, the goal is to progress by taking it again and again, so it's up to you to get better!IncantatioN said:I guess I'm the only one who scored just 1 answer correct on that Test >_>' ... but hey, I'll take that!
I agree with Walter. I mean if they wanted to they could just not show them having sex, but not featuring that apostle at all would be a loss since she's the one who killed Carcus.supa_pokute said:I know it's too early to tell, but if they decide to do the black swordsman episodes after the golden age films, do you guys think they might omit the beginning scene with Guts and the apostile that killed Carcus? I'm curious since they left it out of the TV series.
Shit man we get enough of these in Speculation Nation threads as it is!frankencowx said:Enough strawmans. Can we get some modus tollens please?
I can tell you're not (and you're right to be, they don't deserve such attention), because, yes, most of it is a soulless transcription of what's in the book.I'm not familiar with that series, [Happy Potter] however I know for certain that it isn't a "perfect transcription of every detail" from the books.
Oh boy, what's that, an ad hominem or what? You reap what you sow buddy. Deal with it.Vinsssounet said:Aaaah, so agressive. I should have known better ; it's not like I had not read you before.
So he didn't leave it behind, and Casca didn't find it along with his armor, holding it to her chest longingly? That's kind of a big deal given how it underlines the evolution of her feelings towards him. I pointed that out weeks ago, too bad you didn't take the time to read some of the thread.Vinsssounet said:- it could, as well, being the sword repaired. Those things happens.
Hahaha, yeah Ok. And that's a valid reason for you to change it, something made necessary by the transition from the manga medium to the animated film one. What a joke. Guts lost his sword while fighting against Boscone. Whoops! Slipped from his hand!Vinsssounet said:it could be that the sword was just not broken during the fight. It could be lost, out of range or whatever.
And why would they want that? What's their reason? It only takes away from the story. That is not respectful. That is not taking good care of it. And more importantly, that's absolutely not made necessary in any way by the manga to anime adaptation process. It's complete bullshit.Vinsssounet said:As for WHY those changes ? Let's imagine a second for x reason they don't wish to integrate Zodd appearance during the siege, giving its sword to Guts. In that case, they might want Guts sword not being broken. Therefore, they should make the issue of the fight uncertain and show Boscone is not to be taken lightly, in another way.
Sounds greeeeat. Changing stuff for the sake of it. Lamify away!Vinsssounet said:If they were to do such thing, I would certainly hope they would also show us in a different scene that Zodd "cares" about Guts survival.
Then don't pretend to be defending them, because they're ridiculous and are indefensible. You're wasting everybody's time here by posturing on behalf of nothing and for no reason at all. The changes you suggest are shitty and not warranted by anything, period.Vinsssounet said:That being said, that's not that I would be specially happy to see such changes
Can you spare me the bullshit talk about "getting the soul of Berserk" or "getting the purpose of Zodd" for a second and realize that faithfully transposing the manga's events is not only the best but also in almost every case the only way to get it all right? Are you saying you trust these guys to "get it" better than Miura did? How about taking a step back and thinking about what you're saying for a second. Look at what the TV series tried to do and how they fucked up. Good example of taking liberties while "getting it," yeah. I mean I'm not sure at all that you "get it" yourself here, to tell you the truth. And I don't mean to hurt your feelings by saying that.Vinsssounet said:the thing is, as long as they did get the purpose of Zodd, and this part of what he desires is a part of the anime character, I wouldn't mind. It can be a pleasure to see newly imagined scenes, as long as it got the SOUL of Berserk.
Yeah sure I can, and I've done so 15 pages ago as a matter of fact. I'm simply asking you to put your money where your mouth is, which you obviously can't do, and that's the very reason I asked in the first place. You mentioned "dozens of potential valid adjustments" and I'm not seeing any. That's all there is to say.Vinsssounet said:So, you made me invent exemples for the purpose of the discussion ; yes, I'm sure you can quote them one by one and show us how wrong they are ("WHAT ? an identical sword ? did we read the same manga here, because I seem to recall seeing this very sword was outstanding people, so it's not likely there would be lots of it").
Rhythm issues like what? Throwing that sword looked fine in the previous animation. Hey, maybe they should replace the Dragon Slayer by something else too. Might look a little dumb in anime, or any reason. As long as they get the soul of Berserk it's fine!Vinsssounet said:You might also ask me "and why shouldn't we see Zodd during the siege ?". We could imagine rythm issues, or the fact that throwing a giant sword at such range could look a little dumb in anime, or any reason.
Yeah, I noticed that. It's part of the problem, in case you haven't noticed. You're just winging it and expecting us not to mind, but what you say doesn't have any ground and that is actually not fine with me.Vinsssounet said:That could go endlessly, but my point is not to have accurate exemples
These things as a whole are what, together, make Berserk great (sorry for not using that bullshit spiritual terminology of yours). If you remove enough of these, then the adaptation will lower in quality. It's such a simple thing to understand.Vinsssounet said:I'm only stating, once again, that I don't mind about such changes if Berserk spirit is understood and present, and that the adaptation could have valid reasons to do such changes.
Then why were you complaining when I said you didn't care how sloppy the adaptation would be? Changing stuff without a reason (just "to show us something new") is what I call being sloppy.Vinsssounet said:I personally look forward new scenes, whether they are here because of adaptation need, or because they wanted to show us something new.
It becomes a matter of caring about quality or not. Now, it's fine if you choose not to care, but be nice in the future and don't come telling people who do that they shouldn't.Vinsssounet said:I can get one would not be so happy to see such new things ; this becomes a matter of taste.
Hey frankencowx man, check it out! Just what you asked for!Vinsssounet said:Yet, on Zodd scenes we saw on the first teasers, we can see pillars having the very same details that are drawned in the manga ; this is quite some solid proof of a detail-oriented anime in my opinion. If they can pay enough attention to get a pillar right, then it is not lack of accuracy that makes them change an armor, a sword or anything ; it is a choice.
A valiant effort to be a smartass, which will no doubt be followed by a whiny, falsely innocent surprise at an "aggressive" response, but I didn't forget anything. Your original statement was "mindless perfect transcription of every detail put together without talent". "Most" is not a "perfect transcription of every detail". I asked you to show some good faith, but I see that you're obviously not listening, nor trying to be amiable here. You're just out to make a fool of yourself. Well done. Now it'd be nice if you stopped shitting up the thread though, since it's really running around in circle.Vinsssounet said:And yes, I said "most part of the Harry Potter movies" were such thing ; never did I say they were entirely that. You should know better and not forget the "most", you don't like inaccurate, and it changes what I said to not include it, making it wrong, or right.
Agreed entirely.Draculoid said:The fact that her eyes a obscured definitely adds to the mystery/tenstion/mood of that character/scene especially when you start seeing Conrad and Ubik literally under the disguise. I would be quite dissapointed if they showed the old lady in her entirety throught that scene. Again with the whole adaptation/accuracy nonsense arguements but I just really feel revealing her in full does nothing but take away from that scene, there is no GOOD reason for it.
Fortunately, once again, we're not actually presented with such a false dilemma of extreme choices, which both sound pretty shitty to me. We can actually hope for the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, given what you're saying, we're far more likely to get the worst: movies that don't respect Berserk, understand it or its essence, that arbitrarily throws away characters and chapters, and gives us a mindless bastardization without talent. But hey, as long as it's a cool anime movie, who cares!Vinsssounet said:I'd totally rather these movies respect Berserk, understand it and put the essence of it in a screen, even if I have to see some characters and chapters disappear, rather than a mindless perfect transcription of every single detail put alltogether without talent.
I think it's a little of both, which makes it interesting when he redraws the young Griffith in the current volumes. Though the evolution of Miura's style is obvious and reflected, so are the intentional design differences based on age, and not only for Griffith.Theoden said:If he had to do it himself, would Miura really would do Griffith with this proper style? I believe it has some chances that, no, he wouldn't do the same because of his own style evolution, in some proportions and limits of course.
I didn't mean the hair, though I think you make the point better than I did by pointing out it's hard to say what's wrong exactly because the entire face doesn't correspond (it's just kind of awkward looking, ok for post incarnation alien Griff, but not when he's supposed to be disarmingly boyish). I certainly don't expect them to relate Miura's style changes, as I agree even he draws young Griffith differently now than he did then. As for Griffith's change in hair, I think it was an intentional design change based on Miura's stylistic evolution, not a design specifically to reflect age. It starts getting puffier and wavier in volume 6, and I believe the first time you see it like it will become is in episode 008, Assassin (1). In the previous episodes, especially Sword Master (2) right before, you can see it getting puffier on top and wavering at the ends, but it's still straight. Then in Assassin, BOOM, first time you see Griffith and it's like he got a perm (it still fluctuates at times, but the tide is clearly shifting as far as straightness vs. waviness is concerned =). So yeah, maybe Griffith started doing his hair differently in the morning, but it was definitely an intentional change going on (maybe Miura was influenced by drawing Julius' wavy hair). By the the end of the volume when we see flashbacks of Griffith even younger, his hair is wavier than ever, and again when we see him as a child, so his overall design was clearly changed. Given that, of course I wouldn't expect the new anime to adhere to a design Miura himself abandoned, just like I wouldn't expect Guts to be wearing tight leather pants if the Black Swordsman arc we're adapted today, but something more along the lines of his original Black Swordsman costume as depicted right after the eclipse.Theoden said:The point I try to make is there must be some substantial changes between the manga and a more actual animated version of it; simply because they couldn't imitate the evolution of Miura's style, it wouldn't make sense I believe, everyone knows that already I guess.
So, If Griffith has a different style, I can understand why, but that doesn't mean this one
is the "right one"...
I assume Griffith ( the member not the character ) that you were mainly talking about his hair style; which tends to become more and more curly by the time. Once more I'm not saying that If you change the hair style then we're done, I never thought that. I can't really say what else is wrong on this Griffith because it's just the entire face that doesn't correspond...
Yeah, given the circumstances it definitely seems it's her. Though, it's still weird, because Griffith doesn't run straight by but immediately stops to talk to her, and it doesn't seem like they were just talking either... oh well, we don't know the exact direction they'll take, maybe he'll run by and go back or something. Anyway, my point was that it's disconcerting that they'd make her nearly unrecognizable, and though she wasn't a big character, her look was designed to suit her role. She's supposed to seem like a bystander at first, not stand out like an evil old baba. Plus, her face was also designed to look like a mask later. So, another good example of what we've been talking about, what seems like a "minor detail" can make a significant difference in the interpretation and depth of a scene. Also, something the '97 anime got right, no excuse why this team can't.Theoden said:Well it's definitely young Griffith because of the hair, the size of the body. So this old woman should be the one showing him he way to the castle.
So, I agree that this old woman isn't a main character and doesn't have the same importance than a Guts or a Griffith. But then again, it shows well that they doesn't seem to hesitate to clearly modify the way some characters does look like.
I was thinking : The less "important" the character is, the more they allow themselves to make changes; I hope it's not the case but with what we can actually see it tends to be that way; I assume there is no need to repeat the other character changes we saw, even in a trailer.
It might be, but I'm still hopeful Wyald makes it. To me there's not much point otherwise, why adapt it again if you're just going cut out the same things? Another reason skipping the Black Swordsman stuff bothered me in the first place.Theoden said:Good point... I really don't know and It's disturbing... Maybe I don't get enough culture ( well it's probable ) but I don't remember any other animation movie which could be as serious as the tone of Berserk; involving on the big screen these kind of elements ( like Wyald and his giant spiky penis-tongue ) . Don't want to repeat what you said but I don't feel very optimistic about this...
I guess maybe it's a private freedom only for the manga form...
Wow... nice choice. You couldn't have picked a non sequitur defending the misspelling of Guts' name or something?Turkitage said:LOL! holy crap that's funny. I've never had a signature here before but you just earned a spot!
Please don't twist that rationalization into a rebuke of those discrepancies' potential negative implications. It's not.Vinsssounet said:- as Griffith suggested, it could be very simply an identical sword.
You're confusing laziness with creativity. The fact that you're just making this stuff up off the top of your head only goes to show how bad it would be if that's all they could come up with during production. What we want is actually much harder. Of course adapting the material to films requires changes, but it's a fine balance, just any clumsy changes won't do. To use your language, too many "newly imagined scenes" could in fact lose the soul of Berserk, or at least the more tangible points.Vinsssounet said:As for WHY those changes ? Let's imagine a second for x reason they don't wish to integrate Zodd appearance during the siege, giving its sword to Guts. In that case, they might want Guts sword not being broken. Therefore, they should make the issue of the fight uncertain and show Boscone is not to be taken lightly, in another way.
If they were to do such thing, I would certainly hope they would also show us in a different scene that Zodd "cares" about Guts survival.
That being said, that's not that I would be specially happy to see such changes ; but the thing is, as long as they did get the purpose of Zodd, and this part of what he desires is a part of the anime character, I wouldn't mind. It can be a pleasure to see newly imagined scenes, as long as it got the SOUL of Berserk.
Well, we know that's not true because it's already been portrayed effectively. If this team can't do it as well as the last, that's their fault. Also, I'd hope they'd be talented enough to find a better ways to adapt the series to the rhythm and pacing of film, as that would be a pretty blunt solution, especially working within a trilogy. Again, that's the challenge, this sort of work requires a scalpel, not an axe.Vinsssounet said:You might also ask me "and why shouldn't we see Zodd during the siege ?". We could imagine rythm issues, or the fact that throwing a giant sword at such range could look a little dumb in anime
I think this line gets closer to the truth of the matter with you.Vinsssounet said:or any reason.
Except you haven't given valid reasons in your arbitrary "exemples" because they don't really justify the necessity of the change to serve the adaptation any more than leaving it relatively the same. Despite your claims to the contrary, the substance of your examples is basically just arguing for change for the sake of it, and you pretty much say it outright below.Vinsssounet said:That could go endlessly, but my point is not to have accurate exemples ; I'm only stating, once again, that I don't mind about such changes if Berserk spirit is understood and present, and that the adaptation could have valid reasons to do such changes.
That's the thing though, when it comes to the new Berserk anime you seem more excited about the "new" and "anime" than the actual "Berserk" part, which you've actually put down at every opportunity in favor of the unknown.Vinsssounet said:I personally look forward new scenes, whether they are here because of adaptation need, or because they wanted to show us something new.
Indeed, and when it comes to having it or not, guess who I'm betting on? Those with extremely high and specific standards, or those up for anything as long as there's the dubious promise of it of it being "good" in some vaguely rationalized sense of subjective taste? Yeah, the former. =)Vinsssounet said:I can get one would not be so happy to see such new things ; this becomes a matter of taste.
More objectively, it's just inconsistent.Vinsssounet said:Yet, on Zodd scenes we saw on the first teasers, we can see pillars having the very same details that are drawned in the manga ; this is quite some solid proof of a detail-oriented anime in my opinion. If they can pay enough attention to get a pillar right, then it is not lack of accuracy that makes them change an armor, a sword or anything ; it is a choice.
You keep mentioning the spirit and soul of the piece and all that other art journo mumbo jumbo, but you have no reason to think that will be intact whether they do it exactly or not. It's almost like religion versus science here; we're talking about the facts of what we know and can see, you're literally expounding on your faith in the film based on ignorance, or what we in fact don't know. So, yeah, thanks for sharing your personal hopes, dreams, and fantasies about this with us, but they have little bearing on the reality of this adaptation, or our discussion of it for that matter.Vinsssounet said:I can tell you're not (and you're right to be, they don't deserve such attention), because, yes, most of it is a soulless transcription of what's in the book.
You mean Griffith's hair?Vinsssounet said:PS : I'm glad to see Casca socks will not be forgotten so soon.
Well, that's not surprising given that you don't seem to be funny or appreciate Berserk otherwise.Vinsssounet said:PPS : oh my, it's gonna so terrible when I'll have to say that I don't appreciate the humor in BerserK. My my!
Well said, man.Draculoid said:Nice analysis of the old lady Griffith! I thought the same thing when it looked like the alley and Griffith running by. The fact that her eyes a obscured definitely adds to the mystery/tenstion/mood of that character/scene especially when you start seeing Conrad and Ubik literally under the disguise. I would be quite dissapointed if they showed the old lady in her entirety throught that scene. Again with the whole adaptation/accuracy nonsense arguements but I just really feel revealing her in full does nothing but take away from that scene, there is no GOOD reason for it.
Yeah, it's interesting, but, as you can see I got WAY too into it above.Draculoid said:Also an interesting point about Griffith looking already "other worldly" in the Golden Age. I didn't really think about it too much but he certainly does look just about identical to how he does in the CMs they showed of him on the hill of swords. Not as bad as the old lady thing for me but still, definitely see your point here.
There's no reason to believe that anyone from the former anime's staff, Studio VAP, would now be working for Studio 4°C.MaN said:Actually, it would be interesting to know how many of the old animators are on helm of the anime project.
I believe it'll be for fans. Afterall, they went out of their way to say this, "The aim of the project is to make the movies faithful to the original."Which brings me to the burning questions "Who is going to be the target for the anime series? The Berserk manga loyalists or new readership/viewership". I really hope, as Griff has been saying, that they strike a good balance.
Not true. The beherit is introduced in the second episode, and Zodd is what, Episode 6? Giant minotaur with wings. That's pretty supernatural.The last anime project (IMO) had one purpose alone "Increase manga readership". Which is why as someone mentioned earlier, they got rid of everything supernatural until the last episode
Worth repeating once more since we'll be holding them to their word.Walter said:I believe it'll be for fans. Afterall, they went out of their way to say this, "The aim of the project is to make the movies faithful to the original."
Yeah, this idea that they were intentionally toning down the supernatural elements has been mentioned a few times, and I don't buy it. Zodd was certainly in the mix, even for his cameo at Doldrey, and I honestly think that Silat and Wyald came down to production costs more than anything else.Walter said:Not true. The beherit is introduced in the second episode, and Zodd is what, Episode 6? Giant minotaur with wings. That's pretty supernatural.
It'll be nice to spread our wings from this thread, "The Oral History of the New Berserk Animation Project confirmed."Walter said:BTW guys, we're launched a new section in light of the bustling activity on this thread the past month or so. Please think about thread ideas in the coming weeks and try to be constructive!
I was thinkin' that myself, eventually. We'll see.Truder said:Griffith's Berserk Anime Recut would fit nicely in this section.
You know that whole "Griffith in the movie looks too otherworldly" is a joke, right? The art style is really nothing like Miura's no matter what "era" you're looking at.MaN said:Actually, it would be interesting to know how many of the old animators are on helm of the anime project. It might just be that apart from Miura the people are mostly accustomed to drawing the characters as they look now (say last 5 years) and hence the cels showing Griffith, for example, are much similar to recent manga episodes then the Goldern Arc 'era'
It's for both of course.MaN said:Which brings me to the burning questions "Who is going to be the target for the anime series? The Berserk manga loyalists or new readership/viewership". I really hope, as Griff has been saying, that they strike a good balance.
Nah, I don't think that's how they saw it when they were making it.MaN said:The last anime project (IMO) had one purpose alone "Increase manga readership".
Which is why, among other things (like the fact no one's ever going to read a 50+ pages thread, the result of which is endlessly recurring discussions), we're now locking it down. You can all forthwith make dedicated threads for the anime-related topic you want to discuss. Enjoy!Walter said:BTW guys, we're launched a new section in light of the bustling activity on this thread the past month or so. Please think about thread ideas in the coming weeks and try to be constructive!