Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles

[Proj2501]

Spare me, I'm talking about a game series with the prominent feature of systematically targeting a new and different foreign country and ethnic population, to dehumanize and kill, with each new game.

Ok, so much of back and forth, this and that...and Phoenix has left me a little puzzled suddenly.

Griff, I just need to ask you a direct question.

I don't actually believe that Capcom has a racist agenda to promote. They're a company worried about the bottom line after all, but to that end, I do think they could be using passive racism/xenophobia to subconsciously heighten the effectiveness, and therefore sales, of their games. I don't have a real strong emotional or personal right or wrong investment in that, but I do find it quite interesting to say the least.

Not challenging you or anything. But, what makes you think this? Is it really that much of an issue that Resident Evil goes global?
BTW, I was in error to bring up Africa as RE5 takes place in Haiti.

I mean I get where you're coming from, I do. I still don't agree with you honestly; not to say that you're fuckin' wrong and I'm fuckin' right!!! . But since you and I are civil human beings we can discuss.


Why Haiti?
I say it's to further the plot and keep settings/situations/encounters fresh and unique.
You're saying "Capcom could be using passive racism/xenophobia to subconsciously heighten the effectiveness, and therefore sales, of their games."

I see where you're coming from. Yes, it's easy for Capcom to use racism to puff up sales and then say, "Racism? Nooooo." And if there target IS the white demographic, then it's a plausible, however shady sales tactic. But then, what does that say on how the Japanese view 'Whites'? Do they think we really get an added pleasure shooting Non-white zombies???

Now though, since it's not set in Africa as I thought it was, alot of my Why Africa reasoning is null and void.

Honestly, it's back to the drawing board for me. For now, I will lean back on the idea that we are seeing different settings to spice the series up. As opposed to always having these 'incidents' occur in the US. So not only are we experiencing a new game period. American, European and Japanese gamers are all experiencing it in a setting most would be unfamiliar with. Adding that little something extra to the experience.

Or I could be dead wrong. ...Phoenix Wrong...

 

[Griffith]

Ok, so much of back and forth, this and that...and Phoenix has left me a little puzzled suddenly.

Griff, I just need to ask you a direct question...Wait, I will post what I've written so far, but I need to read something first... PLEASE WAIT

Can't wait, heading out, but I'll get back to you later on whatever it is (and I should probably clarify what exactly I mean myself with that line you quoted).

I know Phoenix will be waiting up for me.

 

[Manji]

Reply to Griffitttttttttttts

Again, why did it come to this? I was simply asking you to examine possible subtext and what it could mean to different people.

Did I not point this out? "Sensitive Context", implying that yes, for some, this is a sensitive issue. However, again, what isn't these days? One could just as easily argue racist issues in RE5's choice of scenery as they could argue why there's something wrong with not having an ethnic male lead since the first one, let alone any work of fiction. People could argue the appearance of a white buff male and sexy female lead is an outdated and sexist way of thinking, again, my point to -you- is your argument is yet another perspective among millions. My MAIN issue was,
"so...why are you targeting RE5? Isn't your quest for perspective better used on more pressing issues?"

You know, put yourself in someone else's shoes. Think about it intellectually and in the abstract.

Someone else's shoes? Like what, a minority? Someone of ethnic diversity? :3 Got you there. Used to be a military brat, lots of foreign and "domestic" places in which I was a minority (read, White, let alone American in some cases). I've been the subject of racism just because of that and by that I mean someone giving me a handicap or gross assumption because of my race/nationality. Again, if I change the zombies to white, where does your problem come from now, or rather "awareness"? Its non existent. Or, change the country to America? Would you still complain that black zombies make a racist statement, however sublime or loud? Something tells me you would. The fact it takes place in Haiti is irrelevant to that situation, its just "icing on the cake" as you would put it.

But, a second time a pattern emerges, and changes the context of the first as well.

You keep saying pattern, I see RE5 just mimicking RE4 verbatim because it was a huge success. As you admitted, people loved the change in locale, the whole entire game. What does Capcom do when they uncover a game winning formula? We've talked about this with SFIV, your own counter argument is self-defeating. Again, I'm stating they did this for game formula success, yes, there's sensitivity due to this "pattern", but that's all there is, and nothing more.

So, despite that specific response to a specific point, you turned it into a tangent about the pattern of RE taking place in white America for the first three games and it must be "racist against whites too omg lol" (yeah, you're sense of history and equality is so enlightened).

...What? No, I was just noting that somehow its wrong for there to be Black and Spanish zombies for -two games- yet massacring thousands of white zombies for nearly 10+ is somehow more acceptable just by skin color. Its not, it's just as morally objectionable. Again, you can't prove how its any more morally acceptable to kill thousands of white than black zombies, its perspective, you know, that's how morality works. Its just a matter of perspective.

Even taking didnifying that with response, it begs the question why these arbitrary location changes? What organic story element directed it towards Spain

Because Raccoon city was nuked and milked by nearly ten games and general consensus was for a change in locale. Devil May Cry, the original RE4, takes place on an island with a castle+hell. The original build of the now known RE4 almost had a supernatural theme going for it and did not feature the Spain-theme that was later released. Not to mention Code Veronica took place in Europe, lot of good you noticed that right? A CHANGE IN LOCALE? No, you just noticed a change in skin color, not nations. Griffith.... Next.

and now Haiti!?

and NEXT THE WORLD.

You say they're just bringing back the status quo like Chris Redfield

Like Jill in RE3, Claire and Chris in CV and Leon in RE4. Oh, and Wesker/Ada in RE4. Oh, and Wesker in UC and CV. Yes, I do say that. When RE5 was first announced and we saw the original trailer and the question was "Who is it?" Capcom announced "It's someone we're really fond of." So yes, I fail to see the subtext worth taking note.

but what's Haiti or any other poor minority village have to do with that?

I don't know, you can tell me when you actually play the game? I think its just a nice change of setting. I loved RE4, I anticipate to love 5, with no racial subtext hampering my enjoyment even in the back of my head.

And what do you have against questioning this?

Perspective. Again, my argument to you is that if we change the race, your racial argument disappears. We'll make the blacks in Haiti white, now the change in locale is justified to you, right? Again, that's all I'm saying.

It's worth mentioning that Colbert is a satire of the ignorant conservatism.

I know.

Anyway, I didn't say anything so blunt, that's just what you saw through your filter where everything READS LIKE THIS!

Like a record baby right round, ...I mean, here we go again, x amount of times I've asked,
"Why does it matter if its in Haiti, and they are black?"
Your only defense so far is that "it was the same thing in RE4" a minority facing a majority ethnic group in a rural area. Ok? Why is it worth noticing even minimally other than just knowing it for the sake of "knowing"?

Yeah, and like I said, that's a pretty narrow ignorant point of view, only seeing cartoon racism in terms of pop culture extremes: KKK, Nazis, and the N-word.

Again, a take on sarcasm too literally. To put it firmer, you must have disliked Black Hawk Down right? At least for "this" reason. A bunch of "crazed" black "terrorists" gunning down the white American heroes?

A real event made into a movie that caused a little bit of racial subtext for some, but wasn't exactly the point of the movie nor the real event.

I just keep aware of it, and don't deny it or rationalize it.

Than what's the point? "I'm aware of it". Yes, I'm aware the people in RE4 were Hispanic and in RE5 they are black. That's not racist or at the very least worth noting.

As I've said before, I'm not even making moral judgments on this one way or another

All I did was change what I understood as a "racist" complaint into "Well its just sensitive to some". If you agree, hey, we're done. if not?
n yes, I see no reason why we're talking about it. If I'm misreading you however, we continue on.

Obviously not, but you understand you have to think a little bit outside the box here, right? Also, as was clear to me a while ago and should be clear to anybody now, we're not even talking about the same kind, or degree, of racism. Should we have clarification session before continuing?

Again Griffith, my point. You know there are more racist, sexist, and discriminating issues in the gaming world. For the x amount of time, why is RE5 worth discussing in that light?
Skipping most of the rest in quoting since it basically went in circles and the like, and much like this post, I'll just have to end up re-iterating/repeating my point with each quote box I take out, so let's get to the point.

Secondly, was I wrong? You did exactly what I said you would except now it's a full 1000 word temper tantrum.

Griffith, the witty sarcasm...Nah, it was better last time. Your next one better be damn good or we're not best friends anymore. I mean it. I'm serious. Totally serious. I'll start hanging out with CnC or Walter. We'll hit all the bars on the street and we won't invite you to the Roxbury. You'll have to stay home, watching the Sci-Fi channel. Yes, Sci-Fi. I think you know what punishment this implies.

 

[Aazealh]

Not to mention Code Veronica took place in Europe

Did it? I don't think we're ever told where Rockfort Island is (officially at least, not on any real European map ;)), and the other half of the game takes place in Antarctica.

you must have disliked Black Hawk Down right? At least for "this" reason. A bunch of "crazed" black "terrorists" gunning down the white American heroes? A real event made into a movie that caused a little bit of racial subtext for some, but wasn't exactly the point of the movie nor the real event.

Well, you can't deny Black Hawk Down did look like an advertisement for the US military and the use of force to solve conflicts in general. It's inaccurate as a whole in telling what happened and I think we can say it's biased.

 

[Manji]

Did it? I don't think we're ever told where Rockfort Island is (officially at least, not on any real European map ;)), and the other half of the game takes place in Antarctica.

Ok ok ok, it pulled a "zanzibar island" and Shadow Moses, the beginning of the game Claire is captured "looking in Europe for her brother" and then the Island/Antarctica.

Well, you can't deny Black Hawk Down did look like an advertisement for the US military and the use of force to solve conflicts in general. It's inaccurate as a whole in telling what happened and I think we can say it's biased.

Never heard of the prior and I don't know of too many in the military (which I know a lot of.) who approve of the movie, so all in all moot point.

 

[nomad]

A few weeks back I was approached by one of my employees who so happens to be a huge video game freak, stating how horrible for Capcom to have a white character going after blacks. Yes he himself is black, my respond to him was very simple. As said by others here, the chain of events has pretty much taken in several places around the globe. I see no need what so ever of why a lot of criticism is taking place for this new RE5 installment. What? Am I supposed to feel insulted because Leon wacks the crap out of entire villages of Spanish domains? Please... After that, he only replied "true". Personally, I can't wait for either Umbrella Chronicles and RE5.

 

[Manji]

A few weeks back I was approached by one of my employees who so happens to be a huge video game freak, stating how horrible for Capcom to have a white character going after blacks. Yes he himself is black, my respond to him was very simple. As said by others here, the chain of events has pretty much taken in several places around the globe. I see no need what so ever of why a lot of criticism is taking place for this new RE5 installment. What? Am I supposed to feel insulted because Leon wacks the crap out of entire villages of Spanish domains? Please... After that, he only replied "true". Personally, I can't wait for either Umbrella Chronicles and RE5.

I've yet to have any black friends, or at least ones I still keep in touch with (Very limited black population here in Texas, at least in the cities I lived. Ironically...speaking of RE4/RE5...I'm sometimes amazed at the racial issues going on not between whites and Hispanics but Hispanics and blacks...its, bad, sometimes, to say the least) but I've yet to talk to any who haven't taken the RE5 "incident" and stride. One actually took a chance to say "FINALLY, black zombies." So yeah, maybe it's because they're as open minded/immoral as me, but the only ones I hear objecting to RE5 (in a more serious note than Griffith) are people who object to just about anything regarding race.

 

[Griffith]

KABOOM!

Okay, I'm going to try and clear this up in one fell swoop, that means I'll try to address all that's been said previously in a less confrontational (well, as best I can =), more statement release style manner.

Griff, I just need to ask you a direct question.

Not challenging you or anything. But, what makes you think this? Is it really that much of an issue that Resident Evil goes global?
BTW, I was in error to bring up Africa as RE5 takes place in Haiti.

I mean I get where you're coming from, I do. I still don't agree with you honestly; not to say that you're fuckin' wrong and I'm fuckin' right!!!. But since you and I are civil human beings we can discuss.

Thank you, question away, it's really a nice change of pace to be asked rather than having my supposed opinion dictated to me, actually. =)

First, positions aren't as extreme as they appear through this escalation. I really don't have a strong opinion either way, and by that same token, I don't appreciate those who strongly and quickly dismiss the supposition, especially since a lot of the reasoning behind that has been faulty and naive. So, I push the idea, someone pushes back with passion, I push back harder, and then someone else goes crazy and wastes their time writing king shit posts that miss the point in so many words, it's a vicious cycle. Like I said, I don't think it's some real conspiracy, I don't really "believe" in it, I don't say it's certainly so, and I don't much care (but man, what balls on these guys, huh? =); after all, I'm not boycotting it or anything. As a matter of fact, at this point, I'm understandably sick of the conversation.

I'm mostly just curious about the all the changes in the RE series and the new emphasis on countries, culture, and race, along with the greater ramifications of that. RE4 and now 5 are basically totally new games from the original three. Different style, different gameplay, different story, and different enemies... in more ways than one. People have pointed out that the zombies in the first three games are predominantly, though not all, white. Well, besides the ridiculousness of the idea that white people are truly equal to all minorities when it comes to racism and oppression ("we can't even hardly get a job over a black at higher pay nowadays!")... here's the thing, zombies weren't so much identifiable as being white, or anything else, as they were as being green. Zombies didn't move like normal people. Zombies didn't use weapons and tools like people. Zombies didn't live rural lives, tend farm, or raise cattle like people. Zombies didn't think or have motives, feelings, agendas like people. Zombies didn't have organization like people. Zombies didn't speak real human language like people. And zombies sure didn't exhibit organic cultural traits like people. Zombies can't pass for people. These enemies can.

Oh, and zombies also weren't an evil alien race/culture with the desire to destroy Western Civilization, probably with an emphasis on white America!

Anyway, whatever the reasons (again, it's very effective), this enemy is certainly a different animal, just like the new games. So, comparing the first three games to RE4 and 5 in these facets and crying hypocrisy and reverse racism is well... walking a fine line between ignorance and enlightenment. And hey, that's how most people roll, myself included.

Now, as an RE fan, I don't really think there's anything eyebrow raising about this race thing, as other have pointed out, we know better about the games. Then again, as a fan, I'm seeing it differently than a lot of people, and may not be seeing it with the most objective eyes. Look at fans of sports teams with potentially racist logos/mascots for example, they have an understandable blind spot for that, and there's really no bad intent behind it, most of them are genuinely innocent, whether you agree with them or not. I'm close to these games and their eccentricities, and while that makes me informed about them, it also makes my experience subjective in a similar way. Think about how you'd view this trailer if it was just some random game instead of the new Resident Evil game. All the valid reasoning behind it might sound more like rationalization compared to the raw truth of what you were seeing.

There's something to be said for the idea that if you can see it, then it's there, regardless of intent. In other words, whether they meant to or not, Capcom has tapped into and identified their game with an issue with a lot of history and baggage. So, what are likely coincidences come to make the game resemble and seemingly follow in the tradition of more sinister and subversive material. We all agree their choices could at least be called insensitive to the issue, and while a lot of this may be accidental, accidents are still caused by negligence. So while we all know Capcom has no regard for any deeper intended message with these games, that also means that aren't conscious of the unintended and potentially dangerous ones they might inadvertently be putting out.

Man, I can't wait to play it!

 

[Aazealh]

Ok ok ok, it pulled a "zanzibar island" and Shadow Moses, the beginning of the game Claire is captured "looking in Europe for her brother" and then the Island/Antarctica.

Not just in Europe, in the PARIS HEADQUARTERS!! Yeah man, these heroic American S.T.A.R.S. can take care of almost any place in any situation, but those croissant-fed soldiers were just too good.

Never heard of the prior and I don't know of too many in the military (which I know a lot of.) who approve of the movie, so all in all moot point.

The US military (not individuals, the governmental organization) officially approved and supervised it, and the contract they had gave them the right to veto anything they didn't like. I followed the controversy back then so I remember. My point's just that this wasn't the best example to take since the movie isn't a very accurate depiction of what historically happened, and most people recognize that it's biased. While I don't think the RE5 controversy is really justified (oversensitive people, etc), I can't say the same about the Black Hawk Down one.

 

[Griffith]

I've yet to have any black friends,

O RLY!?

Just kidding. (you don't mind if she kisses you, right? =)

Not just in Europe, in the PARIS HEADQUARTERS!! Yeah man, these heroic American S.T.A.R.S. can take care of almost any place in any situation, but those croissant-fed soldiers were just too good.

New question, if not "Why Haiti?" Why NOT Paris!? I'm still bitter, I admit!

My point's just that this wasn't the best example to take since the movie isn't a very accurate depiction of what historically happened, and most people recognize that it's biased. While I don't think the RE5 controversy is really justified (oversensitive people, etc), I can't say the same about the Black Hawk Down one.

And I haven't seen it anyway. =)

 

[Manji]

Zombies can't pass for people.

And here we miss a few key points, sans still not getting mine as usual, although slightly more improving as we go along.
1)One of the main reasons we are introduced to the GANADOS in RE4 is a more "keen" enemy. Something more challenging, to create a different atmosphere than slow, stupid, and easily outran zombies. Again, just like RE5, its to do something in the same theme, stronger zombies than White Zombie!
2)Arguing "zombie morality" isn't the point so much as the mass murder of a given race, dead or not, monster or human, and the lack of impact thereof.

My question wasn't "RE5's macabre third world population", it was "So what if they were black or T-Virus infects a ghetto?" It'd be seen as equally racist. Yes, they're zombies, yes, that's why we enjoy killing them. There's no more justification to make the mass of them white for so many games than to make them black, just like the protagonists, yet nobody complained, simply because of that blurred line that's made it more submissive and acceptable yet unacceptable when said game changes ethnicity. Again, I can't find too many games where the use of a Cross of Christian reference in negative terms had completely barred its release or massive demand for change (Though I'm sure there's some controversial titles), yet Zelda OoT merely featured a somewhat Muslim symbol and hymn, and guess what, Nintendo was correcting that in the 1.1 and 1.2 cartridges faster than you can say lawsuit.

Oh, and they also weren't an evil alien race/culture with the desire to destroy Western Civilization, probably with an emphasis on white America!

To reformat it yes. Sadler was either head or part of the Illuminati, you know, that own fictional group people mythologically empower in this day and age? Yeah, his goal was to take control of the western world using Ganados/the President's Daughter etc etc etc.

Anyway, whatever the reasons (again, it's very effective), this enemy certainly a different animal, just like the new games. So, comparing the first three games to RE4 and 5 in these facets and crying hypocrisy and reverse racism is well... walking a fine line between ignorance and enlightenment. And hey, that's how most people roll, myself included.

Well again the only major difference you're arguing as far as the moral choice of killing a human is gory-flesh-dead zombie and mind-controlled-already-dead-but-live zombie. Also forgetting the "still living" white enemies even present in RE4, and also taking into account there's nothing yet to suggest the zombies in RE5 are soley due to the Plagas.

Man, I can't wait to play it though! =)

Damn straight, and I've pretty much reached ground zero with this myself lest you want to speak more.

O RLY!?
Just kidding. (you don't mind if she kisses you, right? =)

Your mother counts!

Not just in Europe, in the PARIS HEADQUARTERS!! Yeah man, these heroic American S.T.A.R.S. can take care of almost any place in any situation, but those croissant-fed soldiers were just too good.

Claire took tons of you down, it took ironically a black man named Rodrigo to end it! And she wasn't S.T.A.R.S, her brother was. But rest assured, we're coming back for your ass in RE UC's final chapter.

The US military (not individuals, the governmental organization) officially approved and supervised it, and the contract they had gave them the right to veto anything they didn't like. I followed the controversy back then so I remember. My point's just that this wasn't the best example to take since the movie isn't a very accurate depiction of what historically happened, and most people recognize that it's biased. While I don't think the RE5 controversy is really justified (oversensitive people, etc), I can't say the same about the Black Hawk Down one.

Well my point with that was even in the US military (at least in regards to every day soldiers) tons of soldiers looked down on the movie. My father even hated it quite a bit, with the only accurate comment he could give on it was "Clinton's "A+" job in his military support" with obvious sarcasm. Most of the other soldiers at the time I was talking with seemed to think not only was it inaccurate (for both "Biased" and "actually inaccurate on our side" reasons).

 

[Aazealh]

New question, if not "Why Haiti?" Why NOT Paris!? I'm still bitter, I admit!

Americans invading Paris?! You crazy, hateful xenophobics just can't stop trying to expand your imperialism, can you? You disgust me!

Claire took tons of you down, it took ironically a black man named Rodrigo to end it!

Bah, she just ran and the copter took down the guys, then she was lucky to blow up those barrels. All in all she didn't do anything, nor did Chris or Jill or anyone else. Look at how Chris doubts himself in the RE5 trailer, clearly the events in Paris (some of which we surely haven't been told) broke his morale.

And she wasn't S.T.A.R.S, her brother was. But rest assured, we're coming back for your ass in RE UC's final chapter.

Same clique, but anyway, I'm not even sure we'll see anything happening in Paris in UC. It seems to take place in a snowy area with the colonel dude, so I'm afraid they'll just drop the whole Paris thing.

Well my point with that was even in the US military (at least in regards to every day soldiers) tons of soldiers looked down on the movie. My father even hated it quite a bit, with the only accurate comment he could give on it was "Clinton's "A+" job in his military support" with obvious sarcasm. Most of the other soldiers at the time I was talking with seemed to think not only was it inaccurate (for both "Biased" and "actually inaccurate on our side" reasons).

I'm not surprised, but this only reinforces what I said about the controversy surrounding the movie being justified, as opposed IMHO to RE5's.

 

[Griffith]

And here we miss a few key points, sans still not getting mine as usual, although slightly more improving as we go along.

To be accurate, I was ignoring them, but I am curious about one thing, though... When you were experiencing stark racial oppression as an American white male occupyi.. er, living in a foreign land, did you ever catch yourself humming an old spiritual or two? Go Down Moses (Let My People Go)? Follow the Drinking Gourd? =)

Kidding aside, those natives can be pretty hot for an "exotic" white. Get any of that good racism, or just high expectations like, "We hear American all have huge penis!?"

Then you could really identify with the black man.

1)One of the main reasons we are introduced to the GANADOS in RE4 is a more "keen" enemy. Something more challenging, to create a different atmosphere than slow, stupid, and easily outran zombies. Again, just like RE5, its to do something in the same theme, stronger zombies than White Zombie!
2)Arguing "zombie morality" isn't the point so much as the mass murder of a given race, dead or not, monster or human, and the lack of impact thereof.

My question wasn't "RE5's macabre third world population", it was "So what if they were black or T-Virus infects a ghetto?" It'd be seen as equally racist. Yes, they're zombies, yes, that's why we enjoy killing them. There's no more justification to make the mass of them white for so many games than to make them black, just like the protagonists, yet nobody complained, simply because of that blurred line that's made it more submissive and acceptable yet unacceptable when said game changes ethnicity. Again, I can't find too many games where the use of a Cross of Christian reference in negative terms had completely barred its release or massive demand for change (Though I'm sure there's some controversial titles), yet Zelda OoT merely featured a somewhat Muslim symbol and hymn, and guess what, Nintendo was correcting that in the 1.1 and 1.2 cartridges faster than you can say lawsuit.

Yes, but in a practical sense, the interchangeable facts within the game are irrelevant to the intangible thematic issues I'm focusing on:

Now, as an RE fan, I don't really think there's anything eyebrow raising about this race thing, as other have pointed out, we know better about the games. Then again, as a fan, I'm seeing it differently than a lot of people, and may not be seeing it with the most objective eyes. Look at fans of sports teams with potentially racist logos/mascots for example, they have an understandable blind spot for that, and there's really no bad intent behind it, most of them are genuinely innocent, whether you agree with them or not. I'm close to these games and their eccentricities, and while that makes me informed about them, it also makes my experience subjective in a similar way. Think about how you'd view this trailer if it was just some random game instead of the new Resident Evil game. All the valid reasoning behind it might sound more like rationalization compared to the raw truth of what you were seeing.

There's something to be said for the idea that if you can see it, then it's there, regardless of intent. In other words, whether they meant to or not, Capcom has tapped into and identified their game with an issue with a lot of history and baggage. Then what are likely coincidences come to make the game resemble and seemingly follow in the tradition of more sinister and subversive material. We all agree their choices could at least be called insensitive to the issue, and while a lot of this may be accidental, accidents are still caused by negligence. So, while we all know Capcom has no regard for any deeper intended meanings with these games; by the same token, they likely aren't conscious of the unintended and potentially dangerous subliminal messages they might inadvertently be putting out.

Bringing this back for emphasis (and to break up quote box monotony).​

To reformat it yes. Sadler was either head or part of the Illuminati, you know, that own fictional group people mythologically empower in this day and age? Yeah, his goal was to take control of the western world using Ganados/the President's Daughter etc etc etc.

Yeah, but Ganados are just stand ins for the real monstrous minorities out there; remember kids, every brown skinned person has a secret monster living inside them that wants to kill you and America!

And while we're reformatting, Chris in RE5 can technically be described as a white superman exterminating an evil race of black sub-humans. =)

Well again the only major difference you're arguing as far as the moral choice of killing a human is gory-flesh-dead zombie and mind-controlled-already-dead-but-live zombie.

The difference I was highlighting was that those monsters can represent, and therefore reflect on, people and cultures in ways zombies can't.

Also forgetting the "still living" white enemies even present in RE4, and also taking into account there's nothing yet to suggest the zombies in RE5 are soley due to the Plagas.

You're right, for all we know, they're just supposed to be normal Haitian people!

Beating a dead horse, but since even we don't know exactly what they are yet, an objective observer doesn't stand a chance.

Damn straight, and I've pretty much reached ground zero with this myself lest you want to speak more.

I'm basically done as well. If there was anything I'd like to add just to promote general interest, it's to reiterate the idea of subliminal use of passive racism/xenophobia to heighten effectiveness (see the IGN blurb on the box =), and to point out that targeting any specific ethnic group like this is a form of racism, though not necessarily malicious, by definition. It might be a coincidence, it might be racist, but it's certainly bloody brilliant. Anyway though, I understand your point of view and hear where you're coming from as well, we aren't diametrically opposed, but let's agree to disagree anyway just to be safe on the safe side, etc etc.

Your mother counts!

Check out our new custom titles.

 

[Aazealh]

By the way, I'm still wondering a little about RE5 taking place in Haiti, though I don't have any reasons to doubt Kotaku's claims. What strikes me as odd is that in the trailer, you can clearly see that the place is identified as an English-speaking country if you look at what's written on buildings and such. Of course it could just be an inaccuracy from Capcom, intentional or not, but they did go the extra mile to make everything Spanish in RE4, so...

I wish someone could find out what the language the sunglasses guy with the megaphone uses is. Or that Capcom would confirm a location. But you know, since it won't be out before at least 2 years, and knowing RE games' development history, in the end RE5 probably won't include black zombies, Chris Redfield, nor a desert area.

Claire and Ada team up to rescue Leon from Saddler's old secret allies as they put forward their "Plan B" to take over the world. Will they save him in time? Will their rivalry to gain his favors get in the way of their cooperation? Don't miss the return of the Hook Man! He knows what you did in Spain last summer.

 

[Proj2501]

But you know, since it won't be out before at least 2 years

Man, this thread is gonna get huge.

 

[Aazealh]

New trailer, showing off some of the weapons: http://www.gamekult.com/video/7768207/

Nothing we haven't seen yet for the most part.

 

[Manji]

when you were experiencing stark racial oppression as an American white male occupyi.. er,

Long history lesson, feel free to skip.

In the place where I was a minority in regards to Black culture, that was quite domestic and not foreign . On that note, after transferring bases and thus counties where I was the minority via white, the next school had about a 70/30 ratio of whites to blacks.

There was a lot of "sensitive context" that this number was due to this county being a typical "rich white suburban" area versus the former county, though in all fairness I went to one of the better schools there and everybody seemed pretty well off (maybe cause we wore uniforms/school was new etc). At the next school, compared to the previous where I experienced (oddly enough) no heated racial barriers, there was a lot of animosity between whites and blacks, at least those ignorant enough to continue such.

One lunch table was called (for racial sensitivity, a little clarification - "by the rednecks") "little Africa" due to that's where a large amount of black students would congratulate to (obviously not all, but enough to notice a racial divide). I remember countless times sitting on the opposite side of the lunchroom hall and seeing a citizen of trailer park lan..I mean, "redneck", I mean, white boy, taking the time to pull out a confederate flag and wave it across to said table of black students.

And sometimes those were more of the tamer events. If you couldn't tell by the above yes, I've experienced a significant source of racism.

living in a foreign land

Didn't have to travel across shining seas for that one, it's right at home in the deep south!

did you ever catch yourself humming an old spiritual or two? Go Down Moses (Let My People Go)?

No, but in drafting class I had a friend named Chris who sat next to my little drafting cubicle and he'd start singing it, namely to get the attention of William. William's mother was in the KKK (yep) and sometimes you'd hear William shout across the room when Russell (teacher) was out "THERE'S GONNA BE A LYNCHING TONIGHT" looking dead serious at Chris' face. Chris would walk up to him, shove him in the chest and get in his face making plenty racist remarks, William would reply "All you swamp and sand

Spoiler

niggers

are going down!" and the class would pause for a minute in shock something was going to happen.

And guess what would transpire?
Nothing. They always fucked with us using racism and making all of us panic that one day they were going to kill each other. William was still from a KKK family and Chris actually having his own ancestors "born and raised" in the "great" south were somehow able to get along and joke about what would otherwise be violent racial arguments. So yeah, I've experienced a substantial amount of both being and seeing "the black man in his shoes".

Personal History lesson over, actually reply below.

Kidding aside, those natives can be pretty hot for an "exotic" white. Get any of that good racism, or just high expectations like, "We hear American all have huge penis!?"

Nothing like that. Basically any typical argument you see in the news/across the internet regarding Americans was something that was pretty much every day life and lingo at some of the places. You're thinking a bit too narrow in that regard, even places like Hawaii have quite a bit of racial tension.

History lesson over

Yeah, but Ganados are just stand ins for the real monstrous minorities out there; remember kids, every brown skinned person has a secret monster living inside them that wants to kill you and America!
And while we're reformatting, Chris in RE5 can technically be described as a white superman exterminating an evil race of black sub-humans. =)
The difference I was highlighting was that those monsters can represent, and therefore reflect on, people and cultures in ways zombies can't.

Well you keep saying zombies but again, have we never had white enemies/monsters/alive in the RE series, let alone other video games?
You seem to come off as that there's been no other video game/series to emphasize the killing of ethnic people or whites in ways that are more "touching" than zombies, when I say there's been hundreds, RE5 being one far more tame, at least at this point.

Yes, for the RE series having a more "living" zombie is a bit new, let alone choosing to throw in a new ethnic mix at this point. But still you never answered my question, what if the previous REs had more black zombies, or casted them as the majority and no/little to none white zombies? Would the games not be seen as racist, even though your point stands that's irrelevant? I think that's the actual contradiction, it -should- be irrelevant as you said, but again, do you really think if after RE3, the next iteration took place during the outbreak in the ghetto with a majority of black people as zombies it'd stir no controversy equaling RE5 because they are "zombies"? It clearly hasn't stopped RE5 from getting such attention, but the only argument you're bringing up on that note is "well...they're a bit more "human" and all I'm saying is

"Come on Griffith, would it even really matter if they were slow/rotting flesh as long as they were still black and Chris still white?"

That's been my only point with bringing up the "white zombies" to begin with, changing that to "black" makes it racist, just like changing RE4's hispanic to "black".

Finally, what I've yet to see you reply on is the similarity between The Serpent and the Rainbow and Resident Evil 5. For those who have never seen the fairly good (imo) movie, here's the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Serpent_and_the_Rainbow
I hope why you see now I see the RE5 choice of copying the look and feel of S&R is hardly racial to me.

Beating a dead horse, but since even we don't know exactly what they are yet, an objective observer doesn't stand a chance.

Also my point, we've used 5 minutes of footage and a locale to argue subtext racism. Not saying its not a sensitive issue, again I've more than acknowledged that as the point in my first reply, however I don't see it as enough to remotely judge the entire game, even if we're out to "Shoot Blacks" till end game. As far as other subtext, Sherry Birkin was a little girl when we met her in 2, now she might be an enemy who we might have to kill or at the very least shoot several times. How is this not objectionable compared to blacks now being made something akin to Ganados? I get the "point" in your regards of "subtext sensitivity" but again, that's all I see here and not actual accounts of racism in the slightest.

Check out our new custom titles.

Gorilla Glue, try that on for size, Rubber!

New trailer, showing off some of the weapons: http://www.gamekult.com/video/7768207/

Nothing we haven't seen yet for the most part.

Thanks for the trailer Aazealh.

 

[Death May Die]

I hope RE UC plays good. I'm very excited about the wesker story side of it. But that doesn't mean its going to play well. Wether it is good or bad, RE5 is looking like pretty good. More Re4;ish.

I once heard Sony was have a potention to remake the resident evil movie francish, of course I don't think it worked.

www.playstationmuseum.com

has obtained a copy of Re 1.5, the Resident Evil prototype that was scapped @ 80% complete!

 

[Manji]

I hope RE UC plays good. I'm very excited about the wesker story side of it. But that doesn't mean its going to play well. Wether it is good or bad, RE5 is looking like pretty good. More Re4;ish.

I once heard Sony was have a potention to remake the resident evil movie francish, of course I don't think it worked.

www.playstationmuseum.com

has obtained a copy of Re 1.5, the Resident Evil prototype that was scapped @ 80% complete!

I personally can see why they scrapped it. Not saying that it looked bad, but unlike PM here, I don't really see a reason to per say prefer it over the official 2. Still looked great though.

 

[Griffith]

Long history lesson, feel free to skip.

Good stories, I only got to hear a little “colorful” language between races while staying in the South, either with family or friends, but I’ve never actually lived there longer than a couple of months. Coolest part was the time I got to meet Frank Smith, someone on here might have heard of him.
Anyway, talk is more sensitive out here, but by the same token, if someone said that shit in my school, they better be ready to get shanked. Plenty of racially affiliated gang activity to go around, white, black, and brown; guys who are young, dumb, and capable of anything because of it.

You're thinking a bit too narrow in that regard, even places like Hawaii have quite a bit of racial tension.

Not the sum of my thinking on the matter to be fair, and I’m aware of the Hawaii situation, but there’s still plenty of places, and girls, where my humorous aside holds true. =)

Well you keep saying zombies but again, have we never had white enemies/monsters/alive in the RE series, let alone other video games?
You seem to come off as that there's been no other video game/series to emphasize the killing of ethnic people or whites in ways that are more "touching" than zombies, when I say there's been hundreds, RE5 being one far more tame, at least at this point.

Basically, I honestly care more about Resident Evil than I do about the racism side of the discussion. That’s a much broader discussion, and the race side of this game and RE4 alone is probably already more than we can chew or possibly do justice to here. If I dilute my focus, I lose interest, do you see getting into this about anything else? I mean, like you say, you can race bait over anything nowadays. I’m not trying to put Resident Evil on trial alone, I just happen to be singling it out for the same reasons I single it out for purchase, it interests me.

And those white bad guys you bring up were probably abolitionists. =)

Yes, for the RE series having a more "living" zombie is a bit new, let alone choosing to throw in a new ethnic mix at this point. But still you never answered my question, what if the previous REs had more black zombies, or casted them as the majority and no/little to none white zombies? Would the games not be seen as racist, even though your point stands that's irrelevant? I think that's the actual contradiction, it -should- be irrelevant as you said, but again, do you really think if after RE3, the next iteration took place during the outbreak in the ghetto with a majority of black people as zombies it'd stir no controversy equaling RE5 because they are "zombies"? It clearly hasn't stopped RE5 from getting such attention, but the only argument you're bringing up on that note is "well...they're a bit more "human" and all I'm saying is

"Come on Griffith, would it even really matter if they were slow/rotting flesh as long as they were still black and Chris still white?"

That's been my only point with bringing up the "white zombies" to begin with, changing that to "black" makes it racist, just like changing RE4's hispanic to "black".

I’m not really arguing those points, Chris’ overt motivations and the plot elements obviously aren’t racial in themselves, this is about something external of game, but concerning what the game itself represents in the context of our culture. This is too superficial of the game than the points you're making. I'm not saying things like "this is racist" as much as "this looks racist."

And while I understand there's also an ironic double standard at work concerning whites/hispanics/blacks as enemies, that's the nature of the beast. You said you agree that this shows a certain amount of racial insensitivity on Capcom's part; did you ever feel that way about the original three (know anyone who earnestly does, or made comments like in Nomad's anecdote)? It may technically be a double standard, but we live in a World built on them. Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's not fair, and when things are unbalanced you almost have to overcompensate to make up the difference. This is even reflected in the law, racial violence is treated more severely than violence in general. But, to me anyway, it's not just "they're BLACK omg!" but more that pattern I spoke of.

There wasn't enough of a bigger picture when RE4 came out to see it, and while the shift to Spain was arbitrary, there was no organic story thread pointing there, and they sure didn't go for the scenery used in the game, the most prominent feature were the people... but, everything had seemingly changed from the originals anyway, it was just unique overall. It was like, "Oh, it's just a different thing in a different place from the first three, unique and refreshing" But the same change again? Not unique anymore now, but it's still as arbitrary as before, if not more, but there is a new emerging pattern, like "Okay, first it was Spain (and hispanics), now it's Haiti (and blacks)?" Again, I'm not saying it is that way, just that it suggests it, among other things. Anyway, for all the valid reasons and defenses behind it, Capcom could just as well give the same treatment to Arabs, Jews, homosexuals, etc or whatever they wanted with each new game, "It's okay, they aren't really human." That is, if nobody complains.

Also my point, we've used 5 minutes of footage and a locale to argue subtext racism. Not saying its not a sensitive issue, again I've more than acknowledged that as the point in my first reply, however I don't see it as enough to remotely judge the entire game, even if we're out to "Shoot Blacks" till end game. As far as other subtext, Sherry Birkin was a little girl when we met her in 2, now she might be an enemy who we might have to kill or at the very least shoot several times. How is this not objectionable compared to blacks now being made something akin to Ganados? I get the "point" in your regards of "subtext sensitivity" but again, that's all I see here and not actual accounts of racism in the slightest.

Well, internally that’s true, like I said, I don’t see it that way either. Like what I was saying before, those technicalities and arguments like "there was a white bad guy too", while true, aren't visible in the more superficial big picture perspective I'm applying, "Hey, I see those kids playing a game about shooting angry black people." This is obviously a lot more on an intellectual and theoretical level than it is the level of my feelings about it; don't much care. That's probably why we're going in circles with each other, it's a mismatch in arguments; you're telling earnestly me why it isn't, I don't disagree, but am pontificating how it could be, which you understand as well. So, for all this blah blah blah, we're really not going anywhere. So, I'm moving on to my next controversial topic...

​

I personally can see why they scrapped it. Not saying that it looked bad, but unlike PM here, I don't really see a reason to per say prefer it over the official 2. Still looked great though.

Agreed, though I wouldn't even say it looked that great.

 

[Aazealh]

Agreed, though I wouldn't even say it looked that great.

The part in the Police Station made a lot more sense than the stupid puzzles we got though. Other than that, I don't regret the change too much. I'm more interested in the "ghost mansion" beta of RE4 personally, even though I love the actual RE4.

 

[Griffith]

The part in the Police Station made a lot more sense than the stupid puzzles we got though.

Bookshelves and chess pieces:

Other than that, I don't regret the change too much. I'm more interested in the "ghost mansion" beta of RE4 personally, even though I love the actual RE4.

Well, I'd love to play this one anyway (if there's a playable version, you'd think this would be possible?). Though it really does look like Resident Evil 1.5, I don't like the look and atmosphere, too clean and static, of it compared to the new style they eventually adopted for Resident Evil 2. Code Veronica suffered from the same problem.

 

[Aazealh]

Well, I'd love to play this one anyway (if there's a playable version, you'd think this would be possible?). Though it really does look like Resident Evil 1.5, I don't like the look and atmosphere, too clean and static, of it compared to the new style they eventually adopted for Resident Evil 2. Code Veronica suffered from the same problem.

Well, keep in mind the game was unfinished, so they probably hadn't added the atmospheric elements yet. As for playing it... Copies of this sell for huge amounts of money, only collectors have them and there only exist very few anyway. Bioflames is the reference on the subject. It's very interesting to see all the differences between it and the real RE2.

 

[Griffith]

Well, keep in mind the game was unfinished, so they probably hadn't added the atmospheric elements yet.

That's true, still not a fan of the art style though, missing that Gothic element RE2 added.

As for playing it... Copies of this sell for huge amounts of money, only collectors have them and there only exist very few anyway.

Oh, I see, selfish bastards won't share with the RE lovers of the world via the Internet!

Great site, BTW.


P.S. Seriously, nobody in the RE loving world is putting out an iso of that thing?

 

[Manji]

To avoid quote boxes this time, you have narrowed down a significant source of our "Debate" to where I'm in agreement with you enough or not in enough disagreement to bother for another technicality viewpoint. To summarize,
-As already explained each post, I agree with the idea of Resident Evil 5 having racially sensitive context
However
-Both this and Resident Evil 4 did not use this to any racism/discrimination that made any blatant degrading of either races (thus far for 5 in my point, and I don't expect it to). To me, the locale change in RE4 was just that. There's honestly nothing "racist" I can pull out of the game, and even when it comes to stereotypes at worst I felt it was actually a jab at American response to 9/11 with the constant "WORLD OF CLICHES" as mentioned, and not something meant to get a "America, FUCK YEAH" response out of us.

Ok, you caught me. I do that every time playing RE4.

Finally, this is something -again- you've yet to reply on. You keep saying "Zombies, Haiti, Blacks, why?"

I keep posting

The Serpent and the Rainbow

I posted the wiki link in my last post. Read the summary featured to get the idea why its not so odd for Capcom to base the game in Haiti this time. After this I hope there's nothing you firmly disagree with me on, again, the only disagreement I have at this point with you is a matter of sensitivity versus intended racial commentary/allusions there in, minuet or massive.