Scientific access to Guts' power

[roberto999]

But I think Guts is taller than Arnold.
So he is more than 100kg I guess.....

** Anyway, I thought about instantaneous power when Guts wields DS. It will be very huge.
I'd say such a power is almost equivalent to the power you get when trying to lift up a car?
What do you think? More? or less?

I mean I want to figure out concretely when/how such a power works in our life. ::)

If dragonslayer really weighs 100kg ( I doubt it too- I think that the estimate of your Korean friend is more accurate)to try to lift it and move it around would like trying to lift Arnold himself and to try to strike someone with his head keeping him by the legs. ;D Well dragonslayer is more balanced than Arnold (for striking purpose of course ) so it would be a little more easy.
If Dragonslayer weighs about 40 kg,think a skinny woman or a boy.
While the feat is not really impossible far a very strong man , I don't think that it would be possible to keep it going for a entire night like Guts does.

 

[Mizar]

He arbitrarily supposed DS weigh 40kg.

I really think that estimation is a bit too low, look at how much trouble Ishidoro had when trying to lift the sword at only one end. If we assume Ishidoro has the strength of an average 13 year old boy, he'd at least be able to lift a 70-80 kg object a few inches from the ground with all his might. So I think the DS has to weigh at least 60 kg to be able to make it Ishidoro this difficult. Maybe the sword is 1.5 cm thick?

speed

he just got straight speed not rotation one.
and the extent of wielding DS is 2-3m considering Guts can cut off 3-5 at a time.

The problem here is that because of rotation the far end of the sword is moving and accelerating at a much higher speed than his arms and hands that are applying the actual force. Considering the sword rotates at least 180° degrees in a full swing motion untill the first impact, the end of the sword will at least travel 3,14 x radius > 7-8 meters untill it hits. That's about three times the distance his hands are moving. I think your guy might have overlooked this.

Speed of nerve reaction of normal ppl is 0.25sec(he was not sure of this) but no doubt Guts has much faster one.
So he supposed the speed of Guts be less than 0.1sec.
It could come to around 0.01sec because Guts has fucking fast speed.
If it is 0.01sec, speed will be 200-300m/sec, which is almost equivalent to the speed of sound.

Because of what I wrote above, the actual speed of the far end of the sword would be much greater than the speed of sound, around 700-800 m/sec (= 1575-1800 miles/hour). And since we've never seen any indication that his sword broke the sound barrier during a fight, these numbers might be a little too optimistic. ;)

Anyway, he got 0.05sec for Guts' speed of nerve reaction.
Then speed is 100-150m/sec, acceleration is 8000~12000m/s².

Huh? My calculations come up with an average acceleration of 2000~3000 m/s² of his hands, and around 6000~9000 m/s² for the far end of the sword.

ahands = v/t = (100~150)/0.05 = 2000~3000 m/s²
asword = (300~450)/0.05 = 6000~9000 m/s²

And to calculate the force we need to use ahands, since that's where the force is applied, so I'm afraid this guy's calcutions are incorrect.

F = ma = 40 x 2000~3000 = 80.000~120.000 N. (= 8000~12000 kg)

Still strong enough to lift a big ass mercedes of the ground with only one hand. ;D

 

[puella]

I really think that estimation is a bit too low, look at how much trouble Ishidoro had when trying to lift the sword at only one end. If we assume Ishidoro has the strength of an average 13 year old boy, he'd at least be able to lift a 70-80 kg object a few inches from the ground with all his might. So I think the DS has to weigh at least 60 kg to be able to make it Ishidoro this difficult. Maybe the sword is 1.5 cm thick?

Agree. I also thought about Ishidro.
And... considering Guts lifted up Casca and Schierke as if they are just a potato, ;D I guess DS is much heavier than 40kg at least.

The problem here is that because of rotation the far end of the sword is moving and accelerating at a much higher speed than his arms and hands that are applying the actual force. Considering the sword rotates at least 180° degrees in a full swing motion untill the first impact, the end of the sword will at least travel 3,14 x radius > 7-8 meters untill it hits. That's about three times the distance his hands are moving. I think your guy might have overlooked this.

Yeah, he also said about that. Rotation speed is a bit complicated to calculate so he just took straight speed.

Because of what I wrote above, the actual speed of the far end of the sword would be much greater than the speed of sound, around 700-800 m/sec (= 1575-1800 miles/hour). And since we've never seen any indication that his sword broke the sound barrier during a fight, these numbers might be a little too optimistic. ;)Huh? My calculations come up with an average acceleration of 2000~3000 m/s² of his hands, and around 6000~9000 m/s² for the far end of the sword.

ahands = v/t = (100~150)/0.05 = 2000~3000 m/s²
asword = (300~450)/0.05 = 6000~9000 m/s²

And to calculate the force we need to use ahands, since that's where the force is applied, so I'm afraid this guy's calcutions are incorrect.

F = ma = 40 x 2000~3000 = 80.000~120.000 N. (= 8000~12000 kg)

Still strong enough to lift a big ass mercedes of the ground with only one hand. ;D

Yeah, I also think the power he calculated is too big for the 40kg DS though I don't know physics well. Just instinct maybe?
And his acceleration is very different from yours.

But incorrect calculation? Yeah, it's true because it's just his rough estimatioin.
Then what is correct calculation?

I think it's pretty impossible to get actual power calculation as I said before? ::)

 

[Mizar]

But incorrect calculation? Yeah, it's true because it's just his rough estimatioin.
Then what is correct calculation?

With incorrect calculation I meant that I'm thinking that he has made an error somewhere in his calculations. If I'm stating in my calculations that 1 + 1= 3, then I've made an incorrect calculation; calculations are either correct or incorrect within their own set of rules. The only thing that makes this estimation 'rough' are the assumptions we make and the model we're using, but the calculations themselves are never 'rough'.

Anyway, with the information you have provided I can't come to the same conclusions he came to, so either he miscalculated somewhere or I'm overlooking something myself. And looking at his calculations I'm personally thinking that he applied the wrong value for the acceleration. I think he should have used the acceleration at the position of Guts' hands, not at the end of the sword. This makes a huge difference....

 

[xechnao]

Speed and acceleration of DS

Speed of nerve reaction of normal ppl is 0.25sec(he was not sure of this) but no doubt Guts has much faster one.
So he supposed the speed of Guts be less than 0.1sec.
It could come to around 0.01sec because Guts has fucking fast speed.
If it is 0.01sec, speed will be 200-300m/sec, which is almost equivalent to the speed of sound.
Anyway, he got 0.05sec for Guts' speed of nerve reaction.
Then speed is 100-150m/sec, acceleration is 8000~12000m/s².

"Speed of nerve reaction of normal ppl is 0.25sec":
This is irrelevant.
Acceleration has nothing to do with nerves but with muscle contraction. When a nerve gives the message of contraction the muscle doesn't necessarily contract a slight minimum bit and then wait for the next nerve signal to make the next contraction. The muscle contraction regarding force can be considered something steady in function with time. If Guts wants to contract at maximum this is the case. Muscle tone is totally a different propblem.
So max acceleration is not measured this way. To measure max acceleration you just have to concentrate on simple mechanics.
Oh and another thing: all the people have the same nerve signal transmission speeds and when I mean the same it is exactly the same. Guts cannot be different in this one than other people. The mechanism of this is based on an electricity ion model transmission and has nothing to do with ones personal skills or experiences.

 

[Mizar]

That's true, nerve reaction has nothing to do with how fast Guts can accelerate his sword. But have you noticed the little added message from Puella in her post?

*** I have to say I don't know much about physics so my translation of the special terms is pretty bad.
Feel free to correct the terms , please.

So I assumed Puella couldn't find the correct English term here and actually meant with the words 'speed of nerve reaction' the time it takes for Guts to accelerate his sword from 0 m/s at point A to X m/s at point B. A normal person would need appr. 0.25 s for this (with a regular sword), but Guts of course is much faster and would need only about 0.05 s for this. Is this correct, Puella?

 

[xechnao]

So I assumed Puella couldn't find the correct English term here and actually meant with the words 'speed of nerve reaction' the time it takes for Guts to accelerate his sword from 0 m/s at point A to X m/s at point B. A normal person would need appr. 0.25 s for this (with a regular sword), but Guts of course is much faster and would need only about 0.05 s for this. Is this correct, Puella?

hmm the time will depend from the distance measure of AB. I can't see in Puella's example why Guts is faster? All the people in the world have the same contraction speed, thus the same acceleration. Of course they don't have the same force because of the change of mass. If the movement is not resisted then Guts would have the same speed as every other person at the movement. But if the movement is resisted for example against the weight of another mass then the one who can overcome the most the resistance will be the faster. In an orizontal level the movement is unresisted regarding Dragonslayer so in this movement Guts is not faster than other people. In combat he just gains initiative and strikes first. He is combat experienced enough to know and control this initiative combat confrontation and how to react any time. This is why Guts kicks ass all the time.

 

[Mizar]

All the people in the world have the same contraction speed, thus the same acceleration.

I'm not talking about acceleration of muscle contractions here, but about the acceleration of the sword. And that depends on the force that is applied on it, which varies greatly from person to person.

And if you think Guts isn't faster with a sword than any other person, I'd advice you to go and check Guts' battle against Zodd on the hill of swords.

 

[xechnao]

I'm not talking about acceleration of muscle contractions here, but about the acceleration of the sword. And that depends on the force that is applied on it, which varies greatly from person to person.

Force will make difference only if the movement is resisted. In an horizontal it is not (except on an horizontal circular motion where Guts has to resist the G-force but here is a question of his balance and not of the speed DS rotates) but in any other level it is.

And if you think Guts isn't faster with a sword than any other person, I'd advice you to go and check Guts' battle against Zodd on the hill of swords.

I have been specific about what I am talking about in any case or at least I wanted to be. Swordplay is generally a resisted motion as it generally takes place even on the vertical level and needs force but Guts can never be faster in a move against the gravity or on a parallel level, than any any other person's move on parallel level.

 

[Mizar]

Force will make difference only if the movement is resisted.

F = m x a ==> a = F/m

If m stays constant and F increases, a increases, it's that simple.

Even if Guts is swinging the sword in a vacuum without a gravity field, the greater the force he applies, the greater the sword accelerates (although it's hard to swing a sword in a situation like this). What's your objection to this, exactly?

 

[xechnao]

F = m x a ==> a = F/m

If m stays constant and F increases, a increases, it's that simple.
Even if Guts is swinging the sword in a vacuum without a gravity field, the greater the force he applies, the greater the sword accelerates. What's your objection to this, exactly?

Muscle contraction does not transform all of it's dynamic energy at speed but has a standard limit which is the speed of the contraction of one fiber.
Guts in vacum(gravity=0 if this is what you intend) simply accelerates. In vacuum all the persons would got the same acceleration and the same exactly speed.
The dynamic energy would be different however in their swing. This means that if they hit an object Guts would damage it a lot more than another person with fewer force.

In a few words: the extra force Guts has is stored as dynamic energy and cannot all be tranformed into kinetic.

 

[Mizar]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about applying more or less (constant) force on an object and its influence on the acceleration and speed of that object. I don't care about the contractional limits of muscle fibers or the stored dynamic energy. Maybe Guts can't convert all the extra force into kinetic energy but it's still a hell of a lot more than any ordinary person can. But ok, let's get back to earth, or Midland actually, and imagine yourself a situation with Guts holding the DS like this:

Now tell me, if Guts is preparing a horizontal swing here putting all of his force into the swing, how do you think the acceleration/speed he's able to develop compare to an ordinary person swinging a similar sword? Please, state your answer simple and clearly, and without using words like dynamic, contraction, geometrical, nerve and muscle fiber system.

 

[xechnao]

Maybe Guts can't convert all the extra force into kinetic energy but it's still a hell of a lot more than any ordinary person can.

No. If Guts is an earthian he can't. It's the same for everybody. It's the fiber muscle model we all share.

Now tell me, if Guts is preparing a horizontal swing here putting all of his force into the swing, how do you think the acceleration/speed he's able to develop compare to an ordinary person swinging a similar sword? Please, state your answer simple and clearly, and without using words like dynamic, contraction, geometrical, nerve and muscle fiber system.

For an ordinary person would be impossible to balance and hold DS in a stance like this(this is something that happens in the vertical level). If you put a lever under DS that holds it's weight with some wheels that can roll with 0 attrition on the ground the person will develop exactly the same speed as Guts.


Oh, assuming that the strike happens directly and won't swing DS in a circular move. A move like this will create a G-force that will have to overcome. This is resistance and maybe not everybody will have the necessary force to overcome.


The difference with Guts and an ordinary person on the orizontal level will be that as a DS that is thrust by an ordinary person on Mozgus will stop a lot sooner or have a smaller knockback effect against than a DS that is thrust by Guts. Guts will simply beat the Mozgus' body a lot more badly.

 

[Walter]

I've read a lot of this, and I still don't see what you guys are attempting to prove. That Guts shouldn't be able to swing it, but does?

He must be an apostle then. It's obvious to me, what with all this scientific "proof".

 

[xechnao]

He must be an apostle then. It's obvious to me, what with all this scientific "proof".

I am thinking about the Excalibur case. Maybe DS is unbearable for other persons but for Guts well it's another thing. It has to do with magic.

 

[Mizar]

For an ordinary person would be impossible to balance and hold DS in a stance like this(this is something that happens in the vertical level). If you put a lever under DS that holds it's weight with some wheels that can roll with 0 attrition on the ground the person will develop exactly the same speed as Guts.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing this. Someone who can apply more force on the DS will be able to accelerate the DS more into the desired direction, that's how I see it. I may not be an expert on the field of human physiology but I do know that people vary a lot on their capabilities, including their speed and acceleration. If you can prove me wrong, please do so, but your arguments aren't very convincing so far. Anyway, I'll let this rest for now, unless you've found the evidence to back up what you're saying. (or better, PM me instead so we don't clutter up this thread with this shit too much)

I've read a lot of this, and I still don't see what you guys are attempting to prove. That Guts shouldn't be able to swing it, but does?

Well, I thought it would be fun to try and answer Puella's question, that's all. We're not trying to prove some point with this or anything, just having some fun with applying some good old classical mechanics to Berserk. ;D

But just now xechnao came in and states that it's physically impossible for someone to swing a sword with a greater speed and acceleration than anyone else, and that we're all essentially equal on this. So, according to xechnao, the only reason why Guts' sword skills are superior is not because he's so incredibly fast with his sword ("he's basically just as fast as everyone else") but because he always gains the initiative and anticipates his enemies' moves so well. That's what we are discussing right now.

 

[puella]

That's true, nerve reaction has nothing to do with how fast Guts can accelerate his sword. But have you noticed the little added message from Puella in her post?So I assumed Puella couldn't find the correct English term here and actually meant with the words 'speed of nerve reaction' the time it takes for Guts to accelerate his sword from 0 m/s at point A to X m/s at point B. A normal person would need appr. 0.25 s for this (with a regular sword), but Guts of course is much faster and would need only about 0.05 s for this. Is this correct, Puella?

Yeah, I meant the time , something like this...
How much time will it take till you slam on the brake when you find a person suddenly passing by while driving?
As for Guts, of course it means the time he takes till starting to swing DS.
It depends. They say 0.25 sec is average.
Doesn't average mean everybody has different time for that? ::)

And I just wanted to claculate Guts' enormous power by number or unit we use even if the power comes to 4billion N. ;D
It's just great and interesting to assume Guts' power.

As Walter said, you don't have to prove it. We don't have science conference here. :-\

And so simply, Guts is a monster or alien with that power, not a human. ;D

 

[Mizar]

Yeah, I meant the time , something like this...
How much time will it take till you slam on the brake when you find a person suddenly passing by while driving?

Oh, so you were actually talking about nerve reaction time. I believe 0.15 s is the fastest reaction time that's possible for a human being. At least sprinters will get a false start if they have a reaction time below 0.15 s..

But you can't calculate the force, speed or the acceleration from the reaction time, so I don't understand why these numbers were used in this guy's calculations. ???

 

[puella]

Oh, so you were actually talking about nerve reaction time. I believe 0.15 s is the fastest reaction time that's possible for a human being. At least sprinters will get a false start if they have a reaction time below 0.15 s..

But you can't calculate the force, speed or the acceleration from the reaction time, so I don't understand why these numbers were used in this guy's calculations. ???

Well, he said he needed to know time for F=ma because he knew(or set) the weight but not speed and acceleration.
To get the both, he needed a time so he took the nerve reaction time and figured out the speed and accelearation.

As in the previous post, he took the time "0.05sec", distance "2-3m" , that's how the speed "100m~150m" acceleration " 8000~12000m/s²" came out from him.

 

[xechnao]

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing this.

Actually it's not hard at all to find evidence of what I have indicated only that they are a bit long to study. The chapter of any reknown modern physiology, sports physiology or istology (and maybe even medical biochemistry) resource on how skeletal muscle works. You have to understand this model to get the convinction and this needs some reading- unfortunatelly it is not that simple that I can include in a paragraph over here (also paralelly you have to see some images-illustrations that I cannot design over-here). Latelly I was relooking through my istology book which is of V. MONESI (an italian author) but a very famous physilogy textbook in english is that of Guyton & Hall. You could also search reference on the internet to find any info about skeletal muscle contraction.
If you have time to check out the muscle model that would be ideal and fine. Otherwise I can only say trust me on this one, it makes part of my field.

Doesn't average mean everybody has different time for that? ::)

No. You have statistcal average here because of practically real experiments on a number of reallity time humans. Humans while on the experiment may not react ideally. There are psychological factors for example that can interfere. Those factors have nothing to do with the matter or phenomena or problem that is under research or study.

To get the both, he needed a time so he took the nerve reaction time and figured out the speed and accelearation.

This is wrong. It is simply irrelevant.

 

[roberto999]

You are forgeting about the coefficient of air friction. The resistance of the molecules of air would translate the kinetical energy in heat causing Dragonslayer to burst in flames : This has caused in the past the legend of flaming swords ( that should absolutely not be mistaken with the flaming words related to the internet forums ). That of course assuming that Guts use Dragonslayer on the material plane because if he does on the spiritual one(where different laws of physics apply) the things are a little more complicated. Since there the air friction is nonexistent ( see the work in 26 volumes of the professor Florus Von Hagus of the Stocolm University)Dragonslayer can, easily reach and exceed the speed of light -299,792,458 m/s (metres per second) - Drangoslayer, because of time dilation - moving clocks run slowly- could break the time barrier and strike where Guts' ass was a minute before. Not only that but because of length contraction - moving rulers (and everything else) get shorter- Dragonslayer Itself would be reduced in size causing to Guts not indifferent psychological problems. Like you see the matter has to be treated with extreme caution.





;D

 

[puella]

This is wrong. It is simply irrelevant.

I am thinking about the Excalibur case. Maybe DS is unbearable for other persons but for Guts well it's another thing. It has to do with magic.

Very relevant.

 

[xechnao]

You are forgeting about the coefficient of air friction.

We have considered air friction 0. Actually Mizar has allready mentioned this.

The resistance of the molecules of air would translate the kinetical energy in heat causing Dragonslayer to burst in flames.

This cannot be for sure at all. This will depend from the material DS is made, from the speed it moves and from its shape or the aerodynamic factor the way it moves. You have to make the calculation to see the heat produced and then calculate if such a heat causes the material DS is made to change its temperature and how. Flames have to do with oxygen and gas reaction so flames are out of question regarding DS itself.

Since there the air friction is nonexistent ( see the work in 26 volumes of the professor Florus Von Hagus of the Stocolm University)Dragonslayer can, easily reach and exceed the speed of light -299,792,458 m/s (metres per second) - Drangoslayer, because of time dilation - moving clocks run slowly- could break the time barrier and strike where Guts' ass was a minute before. Not only that but because of length contraction - moving rulers (and everything else) get shorter- Dragonslayer Itself would be reduced in size causing to Guts not indifferent psychological problems.

This could only be possible to happen if Guts was starting to swing the DS for a lot of time at top acceleration,non stop. Imagine something like Michael Jackson's twist in MoonWalker when he opened a hole in the ground if I recall correctly. How much time Guts needs to reach light speed from zero could be calculated really easily. Just divide the speed of light with his max acceleration. It could take days having him swing at top acceleration, if he could do such a thing which I don't see how.

Very relevant.

You aksed for a scientific calculation about Guts and I considered Guts being somebody from earth. All the biomechanics of animals have the same model that we know it works the way I told you(it's the same physics- physics don't change its laws for somebody). Without making Guts superhuman, magic could be an explanation couldn't it? If Serpicko could fly, then I give the responsability to its magic cloak use, rather than him being able to fly due to some extra-human construction of his body abilities.

 

[Aazealh]

You aksed for a scientific calculation about Guts

So, where are your calculations ?

 

[roberto999]

If Serpicko could fly, then I give the responsability to its magic cloak use, rather than him being able to fly due to some extra-human construction of his body abilities.

I have just seen a preview of chap 2543 of berserk: It seems the mother of Serpico really adopted him , and he is from a place called Kra....Kro...Kry something (Damn those babelfish translations >:( )