Serpico vs pre-eclipse Griffith

I know this comparison has been done to death but I thought it would be fun to speculate who would win a straight up fight between these two. I just finished rereading the fight between Serpico and Guts on the cliff face and obviously Serpico did everything he could to skew the odds in his favor and was still defeated handily.

The last time we see Griffith fight pre-eclipse is his clash with guts where they both put in their all (well, at least Griffith) and Griffith is also handily defeated. I also feel like i need to point out that Guts is obviously far more powerful when he faces Serpico post lost-children.

I don't know if all of Serpico's carefully planned advantages on the cliff really outweigh the power gain of guts between then and when he fought Griffith pre-eclipse but I think it is roughly an even match. They both use a very agile and fast form of fighting and have shown the ability to quickly analyze their opponents.

What do you guys think? If they fight with zero prep time, who wins- Griffith or Serpico? Saber or Rapier?
 

Mammon

Mangoku army
Hi there :daiba:
Arc said:
I know this comparison has been done to death
Well I didn't, out of curiosity what's the general consensus?

I think a huge factor would be if they are on horseback or not.

Griffith fought on horses since the beginning of the Hawks, he cut down countless of cavalry with his sword, while Serpico has basically zero military experience being an officer of the HICKS, and I doubt he fought a lot of dangerous foes on horse...
Maybe he sparred with Azan, since they are the 2 competent fighters in that bunch (mention to my man Jérôme) but that's just spéculation.

Serpico is a genius swordsman, a natural who had seemingly never been pushed before his first 2 fights with Guts (at least from his flashbacks having draws after draws against noblemen, when he could have, according to Farnese, killed them easily).

Griffith, on the other hand, is a genius swordsman and strategist with a LOT of combat experience.

So with this one I'm going to have to go with
On horse: :griffnotevil: > :serpico:
On foot: Same thing, but closer duel.

Just my my 2¢, obviously we will never know...

It would be like... I don't know, Pippin vs Azan, both with their favorite weapon, who wins? No way to know...
Berserk is not Dragon Ball :puck: (and I also love DBZ)

Long days and pleasant nights
 
I'd give the fight to Serpico, as the Guts he fought was much more stronger than the one Griffith dueled with. Even by the time Guts fought Wyald, Caska said he was several degress beyond anyone in the hawks, imagine how much further the gap would have increased by the time of the Conviction arc. So with that in mind, Serpico being able to evade Guts' sword swing and slightly scar him is pretty darn impressive.

And to be honest, I think I'd be more invested in other hypothetical fights rather than the same old ones.
Musashi vs Serpico anyone? :troll:
 
Pink-Dark-Boy said:
I'd give the fight to Serpico, as the Guts he fought was much more stronger than the one Griffith dueled with. Even by the time Guts fought Wyald, Casca said he was several degress beyond anyone in the hawks, imagine how much further the gap would have increased by the time of the Conviction arc. So with that in mind, Serpico being able to evade Guts' sword swing and slightly scar him is pretty darn impressive.

These were kind of my thoughts too, but neither of the fights really last long. It definitely seemed like guts was surprised with Serpico's speed but I feel it really wouldn't have been a problem for him when it came down to it. I am however inclined to agree with Mammon, if they were on horseback Griffith would likely have far more experience- plus it would reduce the value of Serpico's speed.

So I guess for me: Griffith wins on horse, Serpico wins on foot.
 
Within the context of the story, Griffith would always win no matter how good or bad his opponent was thanks to the IoE.

Outside of the story, I think Serpico would smoke Griffith easily. It's true Griffith is a skilled warrior, but Serpico is almost designed specifically for duels. He's just as skilled with the sword, if not more so. He's insanely clever, able to think and improvise on the fly. It's highly debatable, but I'd even say he's faster as well.

Yes, Griffith is a military genius and designed to be a great general, but troop movements and battle planning don't amount to much in a surprise duel.

As far as horseback goes, if either one is limited on horseback I can't see a scenario where they'd stay on their horse.

TL;DR: Within the story's context, Griffith would never lose. Outside of it, Griffith would always lose.
 
Pre-eclipse Griffith would definitely. Griffith in the Band of The Hawk days wasn't really a normal swordsman. You can see everyone was convinced when Guts and Griffith fought the first fight they thought Griffith will win, because I think they never seen Griffith loses a duel back then.
I think back then Griffith was one of the best swordsman ever in the golden age.
Serpico is pretty good and fast. I think if they ever had a duel it will be pretty closebut Griffith would still win.
 
So this is obviously only speculation, and maybe even more fitting of the category of fan fiction.

However, I really enjoyed Skeletons view on how the IoE and causality technically would not allow Griffith to lose, or at least not take any fatal harm.
This would mean, even when facing a stronger and more skilled enemy, something would happen to ensure Griffiths safety up until the eclipse.

I have honestly never thought about it that way before, but it makes sense now. Thank you for the delightful insight!

Skeleton said:
Within the context of the story, Griffith would always win no matter how good or bad his opponent was thanks to the IoE.

TL;DR: Within the story's context, Griffith would never lose. Outside of it, Griffith would always lose.
 
Necro-reply here, I apologize in advance.

I really like vs debates in general and I particularly love this same-verse match-up. It's popular for a reason, both are very similar in how they fight. Boasting speed, precision, graceful swordplay/movements and a tactical or strategical prowess when it comes to battle.

Anyway, on towards my thoughts here:
The replies above gave some good points already. However there are some I'd like to raise that wasn't brought up yet in favor and/or defense of Griffith.

First, although Griffith lost to pre-Eclipse Guts in a straight-up fight, iirc it was made clear that a huge factor for Griffith's loss was his state of mind during the fight. It goes so far as to say (or imply, I forgot exactly) that Griffith's advantage during their first fight is now on Guts (Now, Guts had the upper hand mental state-wise). Griffith's fluid swordplay works hand-in-hand with his clear mind and quick wit. His rash decision to try and go for the offensive out-of-the-bat was uncharacteristic of him (considering how their first fight went).​
Second, I think Griffith actually has a major advantage in raw strength. He was able to cleanly slice off Zodd's arm in his apostle form. A feat of strength that is unmatched by current Serpico with a non-enchanted weapon.​

Both points considered, I still feel like the match will be incredibly close. Although in a straight-up encounter I'd put my money on Griffith. Serpico seems like the type to not prefer direct battles, especially against an opponent he thinks has an advantage over him. Meanwhile, Griffith seems more comfortable and confident fighting head-on. Other than that, they are pretty close in almost all other aspects necessary for fighting except in strength where Griffith seems to have a good advantage over Serpico feats-wise.

On other scenarios:
  • If there is prep time, I think Serpico's strategical mind is more suited for one-on-one scenarios so I think he'd be able to beat Griffith in this scenario. Griffith's feats of strategy-making are for large-scale battles.
  • On horseback, I think it's fairly obvious who would win. Griffith has a lot more feats to back up his ability in battles on horseback.
I agree that Griffith is made to be a general, but I disagree that Serpico would be the better duelist. Serpico would be better suited for assassination I'd say, whereas Griffith would be better in a straight-up duel.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
It's popular for a reason, both are very similar in how they fight.
I'm going to have to disagree: these threads have limited value, and Serpico and Griffith have pretty different fighting styles. They use different weapons and different tactics. They just seem similar when compared to Guts because he's got a huge sword and they're using smaller ones, but that's about it. In the same way, Casca's fighting style is yet again completely different from theirs.

iirc it was made clear that a huge factor for Griffith's loss was his state of mind during the fight.
Not at all. Griffith was just inferior to Guts as a swordsman by that point.

His rash decision to try and go for the offensive out-of-the-bat was uncharacteristic of him (considering how their first fight went).
Griffith is shown very carefully weighing his options and recognizing that he only had a single chance to win. He took that chance, but had underestimated Guts.

Second, I think Griffith actually has a major advantage in raw strength. He was able to cleanly slice off Zodd's arm in his apostle form. A feat of strength that is unmatched by current Serpico with a non-enchanted weapon.
Serpico uses a thrusting weapon (a rapier), so I don't see how you could expect him to cut off an apostle's arm. Also, Griffith fought Guts when he was a young man and would have died had Guts not stopped his strike. Meanwhile Serpico has faced him numerous times as the Black Swordsman and survived. My point here isn't that one is stronger than the other, just that your process isn't very rigorous at all. Berserk isn't a shounen manga, the characters don't have power rankings or whatever. Their feats are contingent on several factors and therefore can hardly be taken out of their original context while remaining pertinent.
 
I'm going to have to disagree: these threads have limited value.
Value and popularity are two different things though, not unusual for trivial things to be a popular point of discussion among fandom, especially vs debates in particular.

Not at all. Griffith was just inferior to Guts as a swordsman by that point.
Griffith is shown very carefully weighing his options and recognizing that he only had a single chance to win. He took that chance, but had underestimated Guts.
I just re-read the chapter and yeah there wasn't as strong an implication (if any) like I said there was. Though there's this line of Judeau's where he took note of Griffith lacking his usual composure before the fight began. Knowing how perceptive Judeau is, I'd say his observation is worth considering. Other than that, it's noted both by Griffith and Guts himself how calm and composed Guts was during the encounter. I'm not denying Guts is the better swordsman at this point though. Miura must have emphasized that primarily to show Guts resolution in leaving, but I think he also intended to portray Guts and Griffith having switched positions (mentally) from their first fight. I maybe overplaying its effect on the fight itself but it's there.

Serpico uses a thrusting weapon (a rapier), so I don't see how you could expect him to cut off an apostle's arm. Also, Griffith fought Guts when he was a young man and would have died had Guts not stopped his strike. Meanwhile Serpico has faced him numerous times as the Black Swordsman and survived. My point here isn't that one is stronger than the other, just that your process isn't very rigorous at all. Berserk isn't a shounen manga, the characters don't have power rankings or whatever. Their feats are contingent on several factors and therefore can hardly be taken out of their original context while remaining pertinent.
Berserk isn't a shounen manga with power rankings or ratings, exactly. We don't exactly know how much Guts has grown in strength from his last fight against Pre-Eclipse Griffith to his more recent fights against Serpico. And Serpico's fights were tipped to his favor, Griffith fought Guts on even grounds. Since Guts is the only common enemy they have fought directly one-on-one, it's the best point of comparison we can have but my point is that the circumstances were entirely different as well (Black Swordsman Guts being stronger is another one, like you pointed out).

Regarding the feat, even though I don't expect Serpico to slice off an arm of an apostle, if he were around Griffith's raw strength I'd expect him to accomplish a similar feat instead (like piercing through an apostle, for one). Granted, I don't think Serpico had the opportunity to attempt such a feat, but until then I hold my opinion that Griffith has the edge on raw strength.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Value and popularity are two different things though, not unusual for trivial things to be a popular point of discussion among fandom, especially vs debates in particular.
Certainly. However, beyond this specific case, just because something is popular among a certain crowd doesn't mean one shouldn't refrain from partaking in it.

I just re-read the chapter
Individual Berserk issues are called episodes, not chapters. That's because they're released in an episodic manner. Miura chooses to use a specific nomenclature, where chapters comprise a number of episodes (like the Chapter of the Lost Children), and arcs are even larger segments (like the Conviction arc).

Regarding the feat, even though I don't expect Serpico to slice off an arm of an apostle, if he were around Griffith's raw strength I'd expect him to accomplish a similar feat instead (like piercing through an apostle, for one). Granted, I don't think Serpico had the opportunity to attempt such a feat, but until then I hold my opinion that Griffith has the edge on raw strength.
Serpico's main weapon for 15+ volumes has been his other sword, so there certainly are less opportunities for him to display brute strength, and that's not at all his fighting style to begin with. But like I said, my point isn't to convince you, just show that these kinds of comparisons aren't very valuable.
 
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