Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Salem said:
Hahaha, strange as it sounds I wouldn’t put it past him. That’s the most trying part of enjoying this ride. Knowing J.J. is back in episode IX. What was the point in switching writers only to throw him back in? I feel the story is already damaged and perhaps going in the original direction, going backwards were something in his mind, will prove a little cheap. Surprise, super Snoke is Dr Manhattan!

If Rian had been given a blank slate, something to retool the series, I only wish that scenario been done from the beginning. Or perhaps J.J. had nothing in mind, only good starting points. Looking at you Lost.
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Yeah, giving it back to a chameleon like JJ now is almost the worst decision they could make, unless Johnson did him a favor freeing his hands while leaving them bloodless. Well... that's not entirely true, JJ could have laid all the groundwork in concrete himself if he wanted (and they almost did in several cases), but chose not to for whatever reason (Mystery! *THUD* LOST), so he sort of abdicated his responsibilities to the story there unless he truly wanted to leave it open for the next team.
Nevertheless, if he reverse-reverses course after the events of this film, it wouldn't be any more jarring or gimmicky than all the foreshadowing in TFA that's been left moot, other than this is the direction they need to eventually go anyway and now it's done (and Daisy Ridley doesn't want to play Rey anymore after IX anyway). I mean, this was a vision based on a lie perpetrated by an evil dark lord, so who knows? Kylo was lying or tricked too, etc whatever. That ending pretty well salted the earth though, so you either gotta go with it now or give it big WELL, FUCK YOU TOO back!
Like you say though, it's going to be a bit weird and uneven in either case now, but at least holding course has some linear continuity and inertia going for it.
 
Watched it Saturday night and I let it sink in a bit. Walking out of the theater I wasn't sure I liked it and it started to mess with me. The crowd I went with liked the movie. Why didn't I like it ... I liked the visuals of X or Y or Z happenings and I loved some of character A or certain conversations but why couldn't I say I liked it. I went in with low expectations but they weren't low enough.

I agree with most of what's posted in the thread so far. The humor I thought was something you'd watch on an SNL skit or a Tonight Show airing that's leading up to the film's release. Unbearable to be honest.

I think the screen time Kylo got definitely helped and I actually liked his character this time around compared to TFW. Poe was his usual bold, high risk self which made sense or was consistent with the first one. Wasn't sold on Finn and his motive for self sacrifice at the end. After Chewy drops off Rey to Kylo + Snoke, I don't recall seeing the Falcon helping the Resistance in its fight against the battle ships ... or did I miss something there? Snoke's penultimate scene was a disappointment.

Also, a question for people who read the book - can the jedi or sith project themselves like the way Luke does in the end? Or is that a new concept? If one is excessively powerful, Yoda could've done the same and been available for those key battles in Episodes II. And, Kylo & Rey's conversations, while they were a good plot device to explore both characters, I wasn't sure how they did it. Snoke admitted he had a role to play in it, but they could still see each other after he was killed.

When TFW came out, I thought it was weak and had everything going to appease fans of the franchise. This one takes it somewhere else and I'll give it a year to re-watch it to see how it holds up or this coming weekend if I'm dragged to see it.
 
I enjoyed the movie as entertaining as long as I didn't think about the story too much.

The Porgs were cute, and I felt they fit in well considering the were made to hide the Puffin's that kept getting into the shots while they were filming

I liked the aspect of Rey not coming from any noteworthy Jedi Line, this was a reason I was always rooting foolishly for Finn to be force sensitive and to be a Jedi of average power. I wanted there to be Jedi that did not revolve around the Skywalker bloodline, and the Rey revelation does that. But now I feel like Finn's character doesn't really have any significance, his part in this movie felt useless. His Casino Side quest overall became useless to the story, he didn't really have any character building. He goes from "I can't save everyone, but I can make sure Rey doesn't die." to "I must sacrifice myself for these people that I was going to let die earlier in this movie." :schierke:

That may not have been so bad on its own except that I figure Rose has the exact opposite progression, from "You're selfish for trying to save someone you care about." to "Everyone can just die, as long as the person I care about doesn't die yet." Although I felt Rose's whole character was sloppy. Not to mention that they have DJ who I suppose is supposed to invoke some Lando-like feelings of betrayal, when he pretty much explains point blank ahead of time that his actions are done solely based on transactions. The only surprise was that he behaved like he said he would. But enough complaining about the casino plotline.

With the Poe Dreadnaught fight, I felt like even if Poe was gung-Ho about downing a Dreadnaught, he would at least think somewhat strategically if he is expected to be any kind of tactical leader. I do not understand the reasoning of sacrificing most of your fleet to down one ship that they have more of. It could be understandable if it was Snoke's ship or a main target, but this seems like loosing most of your chess pieces to take out one of your opponent's knights in chess.

At this point I almost feel they should have let Leia die when the bridge was destroyed, her Jedi Space flight just felt out of place. Or have had her do the light speed explosion instead of Holdo, so they don't have to have her death be an off screen occurrence for the next movie. Although they had more filmed for her in this movie than I was expecting, so maybe they still have something filmed for the next movie.

I had hoped for more for Luke, although the one man against an army visual was awesome, I felt like they wasted a lot of opportunity for his character. But that was an overall issue with the movie is that they didn't explore much in character depth, and Luke was at least one of the few that actually got some look into his character complexity, the other was Kylo. Kylo Continued on with his good/evil conflict, which at the same time seemed to be the same as Luke's struggle to a degree. Rey unfortunately didn't really grow much as a character, she may have gotten something from the lesson that Luke gave her, but it wasn't really explored.

Towards the end I got the feeling that they were trying to get Poe and Rey together, but it would seem forced considering it was their first time meeting each other. But I also felt that the Finn and Rose thing felt forced too. So far that leaves the Finn/Poe bromance as the one that felt as natural as the Luke/Han one from the original. At this point it just doesn't look to be getting any sort of naturally developing love story like Han/Leia, or attempted to be natural like Padme/Anakin, and instead will likely get one slapped together at the end.

Overall I would still give the movie a C+, but I will need to reevaluate it once the last installment comes out to see how well it ties the movies together. On it's own, it had too many threads that didn't tie together well.
 
I've not come out of a Star Wars movie feeling so conflicted, even after Attack of the Clones. :troll: I don't want to rely on the old cliche and say that this didn't "feel" like a Star Wars movie, but I certainly walked out not feeling right about it. At the end of the night, the only thing that TLJ did was remind me how much I'd like to rewatch the original trilogy, which is honestly not something any of the other movies have done.

I think one of my biggest issues with the movie is the direction Johnson took with Luke and Kylo's back story. Are we really expected to believe that Luke, the guy that goes walking solo into the jaws of the enemy just so that he might have a chance at appealing to and turning the most evil villain in the galaxy to the light (and was successful), would actually draw his saber on his own adolescent nephew? I know Luke says it was a fleeting moment that he decided against, but the guy has the lightsaber on guys. This whole scenario just felt wrong.

I realize Starkiller Base nuked all of the major Republic planets in the last film, but did I miss something? Wasn't the Republic restored? Wasn't the First Order a growing fringe group? How did the Resistance dwindle so rapidly to a few thousand (and now only a couple hundred). I thought this was a galaxy, not a solar system! Am I just misremembering what TFA established (it has been 2 years since I saw it)?

I'm also highly disappointed with Phasma (again) and the Knights of Ren (or lack thereof). These were things that were hyped before TFA and now have been seemingly completely neutered. I have to believe that Phasma is still alive and she'll finally have her redeeming moment in IX. Otherwise she really is the Boba Fett of this trilogy. That fight and her send off where absolutely pathetic. And where the hell are the Knights of Ren? Who are they? Why doesn't Kylo keep in contact with them? Were they all force sensitive? Did Snoke organize them? Why where they even created if Kylo Ren is just going to be a megalomaniac? Maybe we'll finally find out in "The Knights of Ren: A Star Wars Story" coming 2024!
 
After seeing it a second time I did like it more. I feel better about it. Not great, but better.
I think my least favorite part was the casino escapade with the giant space donkeys. That felt unnecessary. I did like how they handled the bond between Kylo and Rey. That was interesting. I also liked the part where Snoke is killed and the subsequent battle, even though I didn't really feel it made complete sense that Rey could hold her own against those supposedly highly trained guards with as little training as she's had in....anything really. She must be some kind of a force/fighting genius I guess. :???: I didn't like what they did with Luke for the most part. As others have mentioned I didn't feel like him seriously considering killing Ben rang true for his character and also then going into seclusion with no attempt to right things that had gone wrong and completely abandoning his only living relatives and close friends didn't feel like something he would do either. His end was strange to me, but I was ok with it. I guess projecting yourself takes a big tole on a Jedi! When Kylo was talking to Rey earlier in the film he mentioned that it couldn't be Rey connecting them because the effort would kill her, well I guess it killed Luke. Another thing others mentioned as well that I had a problem with was why Holdo didn't just tell Poe about her plan. Also I was not a fan of the Leia flying through space thing. I am ok with Rey coming from "nobody". Although I have my doubts about whether that's true or not.
There's still a lot of stuff I felt was not handled well in this movie, but at least I no longer have the strong desire to drop kick a porg. :ganishka:

Headless Death said:
Towards the end I got the feeling that they were trying to get Poe and Rey together, but it would seem forced considering it was their first time meeting each other. But I also felt that the Finn and Rose thing felt forced too. So far that leaves the Finn/Poe bromance as the one that felt as natural as the Luke/Han one from the original. At this point it just doesn't look to be getting any sort of naturally developing love story like Han/Leia, or attempted to be natural like Padme/Anakin, and instead will likely get one slapped together at the end.
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Finn and Rose felt forced to me also. It seems like they are setting that up as a thing for sure, at least Rose obviously likes him. I like Rey and Finn together myself and they seem to really care a lot about each other, although it may be a platonic thing? But I feel like it could be more. The most romantic tension in this movie seemed to be between Kylo and Rey, but then that went nowhere since neither were willing to switch sides.
 
Second viewing made me enjoy it more. I think the first viewing was ruined by audience participation.

My original thoughts still stand, but it was definitely better the second time around=)
 
JMP said:
I didn't really feel it made complete sense that Rey could hold her own against those supposedly highly trained guards with as little training as she's had in....anything really. She must be some kind of a force/fighting genius I guess. :???:
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Yeah doncha know, The Force allows you to do anything and everything apparently, it's the plot device to rule over all plot devices. Watch out 'nano-machines', The Force is on your six! :troll:

I didn't like what they did with Luke for the most part. As others have mentioned I didn't feel like him seriously considering killing Ben rang true for his character and also then going into seclusion with no attempt to right things that had gone wrong and completely abandoning his only living relatives and close friends didn't feel like something he would do either.
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Yeah, they completely dropped the ball with this trilogy.

It seems the whole purpose of the trilogy is Kylo Ren and his salvation/damnation with Rey serving as the key to move him to and fro. Sure we have Poe and Leia, but everything with the First Order and Resistance is just going through the motions because the movies require a large conflict. I just think it's silly to go through all this trouble just for one character, when there could have been so much more to the trilogy. Man, I thought they squandered Mark Hamill before I saw this movie...
 
I don't think I've been in such agreement with a movie thread, pretty much every criticism I've read here has been spot on, and even if one likes the subversion or deconstruction of Star Wars tropes and what it really means to make new Star Wars movies... that in itself does not a good movie make, like many are acting (and are largely the same folks that also loved TFA before they didn't like it anymore). A lot of the positive reviews out there, save for those in the vein of Grail's, have been "This movie is great because it does insert allegedly subversive thing here!" Ignoring whether that's even intentional or true, along with things like plot, pace, structure, character, continuity, thematic resonance, etc etc. It's just as goofy a reason to like the movie as fanboys hating it for ruining your childhood or whatever (c'mon, it was ruined at least 3 times already by now =). It's also a strange basis by which to judge anything, the ever-confusing to me, "This is insert thing for people who don't like insert thing!" Even though I didn't take this movie that way and wasn't offended by it, what's ever the point of that?

Anyway, I just thought the movie was kind of messy and mediocre, nothing really happened and it didn't payoff or elevate old or new Star Wars for me. But it also had some cool moments and dialogue and there's a very strong thematic interpretation and discussion of it to be had, which makes it thought-provoking and interesting, but not necessarily a good Star Wars movie (it works better as a sort of outside, independent film or satire), or even a good movie as it's otherwise just as dependent on the anemic Star Wars movie mythos as TFA or any of the post-Jedi movies, doesn't do anything particularly revelatory on its own merits (taken on its face, it's actually horribly cheesy, sentimental and cliché-ridden), and leaves the series no different or better off than how it found it. Change the names and make this Valerian or something and I don't think anybody calls it great.

Finally, if I may put my bitter fan hat back on a moment (though I've talked to people way more upset about this), Rian Johnson did misfire on Luke Skywalker, a guy who randomly came home one afternoon to find his parents burnt to a crisp by the government and responded by idealistically saving the galaxy, was told he and that galaxy would perish if he went to save his friends from certain doom and did anyway, and found out his biological father was the second worst person in the same galaxy and responded by redeeming his soul. Sometimes he'd whine about it, but that clearly wasn't his most notable character trait considering all the above.
So, Luke Skywalker wasn't going to kill his nephew and get all butthurt when his school burnt down, pretty sure he'd handle it. Also, as an old man, he'd be the coolest and most supportive ex-hippie teacher you ever had and would totally get a kick out of training a force prodigy, "You're doing it!":ganishka: That's where the optimistic cheese should have come in, not Rose's, "Let's let everybody die for love or the animals or something" (GREAT BS-subverting movie! =).
 
Yeah, with regards to the animal rights, post-modernism, and feminism, I'm not quite sure how we got to this point. That we have to taint a series such as this by injecting American politics into it, and not even having the decency of veiling it with clear/tangible benefits to the narrative. And as for the post-modernism toward the Jedi religion, I think the fact it's a thing is silly. I'm on the verge of excommunicating the trilogy from my head-canon :mozgus: I generally reject most of what comes out of the Expanded Universe, but I'd swap in a hell of a lot of things from it if I could at least enjoy some semblance of immersion.
Rose is the absolute worst character. I can overlook how quirky she acts and speaks, but she went overboard with what you and others have said. When she told Finn that we must "save who we love", there was an audible reaction from the audience. Because as she's trying to make the case for defending those we care about, the blast door is getting blasted open, rendering all of our heroes exposed and defenseless. And of course props to Finn the janitor for taking on Chrome-dome, who I originally thought would have been insane in a fight. I guess not...

That said, I think there was decent writing in quite a few places.
And I loved every interaction with Ben and Rey, even if The Force nearly lost all of its nuance when they were able to touch one another. And I mean the times they influenced/touched each other BEFORE they actually touched hands --that was just incredible.
Kylo Ren/Ben is still the most interesting character, as I'm heavily conflicted with Rey. And I think I like Poe even more now.
 
I was planning on waiting for the blu-ray release to see this one, given the bad reviews, but the estimated release date is June 19th(!) so I watched it tonight. And I have to be honest here... Best decision of my life. I absolutely fucking loved it. TFA was a solid but average good film, the embodiment of a 5 out of 10. But TLJ was pure fucking gold. I could go on and on about all the details I liked, but it hit me why I was hooked in by this film as it was winding down in its last few minutes: The movie filled me with that genuine sense of adventure. I hadn’t felt that way since my first viewing of A New Hope. Shit, I don’t even know if I’ve felt that way since I was a kid.

The one thing I really didn’t like was when
Rose passed out. That was some Prequel Trilogy level bad acting. And I mean that literally. Padme’s double did the exact same thing in Attack of the Clones when she died. And this is terrible of me, but I was kind of hoping she had died, lol. Rose, I mean. Not the double. Who did die.
 
Well, here's someone with an unabashedly positive review! A few things...

Skeleton said:
I was planning on waiting for the blu-ray release to see this one, given the bad reviews, but the estimated release date is June 19th(!) so I watched it tonight. And I have to be honest here... Best decision of my life. I absolutely fucking loved it.
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I'm going to question whether this was honestly the best decision of you life, but I believe you loved it. =)

Skeleton said:
TFA was a solid but average good film, the embodiment of a 5 out of 10. But TLJ was pure fucking gold.
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5 out of 10? Wow, again, I know you're speaking generally, like it's an alright movie, but I'm not sure how 5 out of 10 objectively jibes with the generally underwhelming to shitty movie population versus TFA, or Last Jedi presumably being twice as good (I'm guessing your rating is a 10 atm). I guess I use more of a school rating where "average good" is more in 70%+ range and anything below that is getting progressively more fatally flawed in numerous ways.

Skeleton said:
I could go on and on about all the details I liked, but it hit me why I was hooked in by this film as it was winding down in its last few minutes: The movie filled me with that genuine sense of adventure. I hadn’t felt that way since my first viewing of A New Hope. Shit, I don’t even know if I’ve felt that way since I was a kid.
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Well, I wouldn't mind you showing your work here though because that's pretty high praise! I mean, the movie is non-stop action (or motion depending on you POV), but so are a lot of movies, the prequels and TFA included, so what made this one stand out to you in such a positive way? What makes it more authentic and genuinely magical? It is full of ideas, but what made them hit home for you in such dramatic fashion versus, say, the sports bar in Attack of the Clones?


On another topic, I think I know why so many fans are upset with this movie whether you liked its choices or, especially, not: because unlike TFA they were very definitive choices and Johnson made it so there's really no going back, so if you didn't like what they did, you're stuck with it because JJ can't just back the truck up now or stay in place, keeping the series, and our childhood's, in relative status. He and we have to move on now one way or another, which is both an admirable and sobering move depending on who you are.
Basically we're never going to get that last Luke Skywalker-centric movie, even in the main "Skywalker Saga" canon, which has also been ended "prematurely" and reveals the truth that these movies really aren't any different than Rogue One, or worse are something random and alien altogether, and if you hated what they did with Luke here there's also (almost*) no hope that JJ or anyone is going to come back and give us that loveletter to the character many of us wanted and instead it's confirmed we'll NEVER get (which, kind of a dick move; it'd be like if Luke had a heart attack at the end of TFA or was already dead, "Oh, you guys might have wanted to do something else with him? Why!? *I* wanted to write his crappy death scene." At least it wasn't as bad as Captain Kirk's =). This is either a reality check, or... not how it had to be. I pretty strongly believe the latter no matter how much you like the events of TLJ beside that point.

*Unless he becomes a Qui-Gon esque super ghost, a possibility actually bolstered by his powers in this movie, or they bring back TFA's own silly Luuuke hand clone subplot! Now talk about a FUCK YOU back concerning moving on, "Let the past live, clone it if you have to." =)

Also, check out the Red Letter Media review to see this in action. If you know what to expect from those guys, it basically starts that way and pretty neutrally critical, but by the end you can tell they're genuinely, and surprisingly given their usual cynicism, depressed. I would totally buy this fan phenomenon as both an indicator the movie might have really screwed up Star Wars or is brilliant (the problem with the latter being I don't think it's that good as a straightforward Star Wars movie). :ganishka:
 
Bloated and meandering. Would have been a great 1h30 movie (albeit with giant-ass plot holes like who the fuck is
Snoke
again?). Anyway, the franchise should have ended... With the first movie. No sequels needed, not even Empire. You guys have a Merry Christmas. :casca:
 
Going to see it with my mom the day after* tomorrow (she introduced me to Star Wars when the OT rereleased in 1997, in the theater she saw the first movie in)
Not excited about it but whatever.
 
Aazealh said:
Bloated and meandering. Would have been a great 1h30 movie (albeit with giant-ass plot holes like who the fuck is
Snoke
again?).
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I think two hours and change, like five to ten minutes, would have been ideal and the cuts were there to be made; less Canto, Holdo, and especially the setup for them. That stuff's undercooked anyway and could be zippier. Also, I know this series has a bad history with "special editions" but this ain't the classic trilogy so keep the theatrical release fluid and provide an extended cut with the home release for all the babies you had to kill to get it down. I'd like to see those scenes put back in context anyway, like whatever extra Luke they cut or Kylo on the Falcon in the last movie (that should have been in there).

Aazealh said:
Anyway, the franchise should have ended... With the first movie. No sequels needed, not even Empire. You guys have a Merry Christmas. :casca:
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:magni:

While I appreciate you coming with the ULTIMATE purity take (just kidding, I only watch the original Flash Gordon reels on 16mm! =), and think I see your point actually, I respectfully disagree. Even though the original Star Wars is of course the most important and iconic film of the bunch, and arguably even bigger to cinema history than just starting this dumb blockbuster franchise, Empire is a very worthy sequel and film in itself to the point it helped justify them as more than derivative repetitions, and legitimately added the depth to the characters we all take for granted now. Even though Jedi is a step back in that regard it's still a lot of fun (Star Wars post-Indiana Jones) and technically very impressive (still the most impressive space battle in the series, moreso now), wraps things up nicely, and even managed to introduce new iconic characters in Palpatine (an all-timer) and Jabba the Hutt (and his whole palace, really), and the Ewoks...
 
Aazealh said:
I will mail you my French-dubbed VHS of Ewoks: The Battle for Endor for Christmas. :beast:
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What about Caravan of Courage? :sad:

Oh yeah, and I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up the original follow-up to Star Wars, The Holiday Special!

https://youtu.be/YRrm59Z_0w4

Maybe you're right and Star Wars is basically a net negative... oh well, happy Light Day, everybody!
 
Griffith said:
Maybe you're right and Star Wars is basically a net negative... oh well, happy Light Day, everybody!
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You know where my real allegiance lies! :rakshas:

latest
 
Griffith said:
Well, I wouldn't mind you showing your work here though because that's pretty high praise! I mean, the movie is non-stop action (or motion depending on you POV), but so are a lot of movies, the prequels and TFA included, so what made this one stand out to you in such a positive way? What makes it more authentic and genuinely magical? It is full of ideas, but what made them hit home for you in such dramatic fashion versus, say, the sports bar in Attack of the Clones?
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I honestly don't know if I can answer that in a satisfying way so please bear with me.
I'll use Rogue One as an example. They literally beat you over the head with the hope message, but the movie never instilled a feeling of hope in me (making a movie that's based around the idea of hope end with everyone dying probably wasn't the best idea :ganishka:). The Last Jedi touches on the idea here or there, but it does so in a way that really struck home with me. When Luke showed up to stare down the First Order, I realized (beyond the obvious fact he was stalling for the Resistance) what he was doing. The non-First Order galaxy had lost all hope, seeing the Resistance as a lost cause. And Luke's act (and sacrifice) was ultimately supposed to replace the fear and despair in the galaxy's citizen's hearts with hope and the belief that victory is possible. It was essentially the Star Wars version of the coach's epic halftime motivational speech in every sports movie when the team's down by fifty points. To me that was powerful. And I felt it. Right in the old ticker.

I thought the slow speed ship chase was awesome. Not only was it a new, cool idea, but I felt like it was really well done. There was a real sense of weight to it. To use the cliche, I was on the edge of my seat. Keep in mind I didn't plan on seeing the movie before June so I went ahead and spoiled it for myself as soon as the spoilers hit. I knew how the chase would end. Even then, every time the movie cut to that part of the story and another ship was destroyed by the First Order, I thought," Oh shit, they're fucked if they don't do something fast!"

I don't care what anyone else thinks, Holdo(?)'s kamikaze run was objectively awesome.

I'm trying to avoid a wall of text so I'll try to tl;dr this. This movie had weight and consequences. Because of that, I was captivated. It told a fun, fresh story that moved along the overall plot of the Star Wars story in a good direction. I loved the humor. I loved the fact that the humor was used appropriately. I loved the action. It didn't feel like an OT Star Wars movie, but it did feel like a Lucas Star Wars movie to the point where I believe Rian Johnson essentially created the perfect George Lucas-only Star Wars film. TLJ, to me, is essentially the first third of ROTJ without the Prequel Trilogy-ish parts (the band scene and Fett's death by pratfall). In other words, it's what Lucas was striving for but failed miserably at achieving. And I'm totally cool with that. My problems with the prequel trilogy never had to do with them not being totally serious all the time like in Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back.

ETA:
Here are my thoughts on the direction in which they took Luke’s character:

If I were making this Star Wars movie, would I have done what they did with Luke? Nah. But I do love what they did with his character. I thought it was realistic, natural, and true to his core character.

(Before I begin I want to say this is how I see it. I’m not suggesting this is The Truth and all other interpretations are wrong.)

In the OT, Luke was given two jobs, defeat the Emperor/Vader and rebuild the Jedi order. Now Luke obviously completed job #1, but job #2 would prove to be tougher. Here’s 2 reasons why:

1. Luke never completed his training, either via Jedi or Sith, so his understanding of the Force, and the entirety of the Jedi’s understanding of it, was probably fairly shallow. At the very least we can say he probably didn’t have the same depth of knowledge that Yoda or Kenobi had.

2. Luke has a cocky streak in his nature. Not only has it been commented on in the OT but it’s shown in ROTJ during the first third.

Now I’m not saying Luke was an arrogant idiot, but I do think he wasn’t aware of how little he probably knew. And why wouldn’t he be that way? He literally defeated the biggest badass Force users in the galaxy AND was crowned a true Jedi by Yoda himself.

So how I see things is after Luke defeated the Empire he either helped his sister rebuild the Republic a bit before starting job #2 or immediately began construction on a temple and finding Force sensitive kids.

Kylo joins Luke’s school, and this is where Luke’s two “flaws” start to come into play. Now I can see Luke seeing his job as teacher as essentially a lay up. Nobody knows the Force better than him, right? So when he senses the dark side in Kylo and investigates further, his realization of just how much “the cancer has spread,” per se, coupled with its complete blindsiding of him caused him to momentarily ignite his lightsaber. Unfortunately those few seconds changed everything, and to me I love the idea of that.

Doing something bad sucks. You regret the action. You regret the consequence/fallout. And you hate/regret the mindset that led you to that action.

But unintentionally doing something bad is infinitely worse. Imagine you’re having a nightmare. Your body feels movement in the darkness of your room. You suddenly wake and instinctively defend yourself. You feel your hand connect and hear sobbing. You run over to the light, turn it on, and your kid’s there crying, holding his cheek, and looking at you with eyes of fear and betrayal. Now not only do you have all the guilt and weight of the bad action but the added guilt and weight of knowing you never meant to do it and would never intentionally do it. Things like making amends, rebuilding trust, etc are now even harder and more painful for you.

So Luke unintentionally slaps his kid and, as if that weren’t enough, in doing so accidentally creates the next Vader. Think about that. His one mistake, which is bad enough on its own, ends up unleashing hell on the galaxy (with a wink and a nod to Snoke’s corruption).

If that doesn’t put the fear of Go-... the Force in you, and make you suddenly aware of your own limitations, I don’t know what will.

So Luke, understandably, is now in a position where he’s emotionally/mentally devastated, acutely aware of his own ignorance, and snakebitten to the nth degree. So what’s more natural than for him to try to find more knowledge by locating the earliest Jedi temple he can find and isolate himself from both the galaxy and Force so he can’t make another devastating mistake?

Makes sense to me, at least. But I’m just a poor country lawyer.

Now I’ve got some beef with Luke’s actor...

Hamill said, in effect, he didn’t like what Johnson did with Luke because he believes Luke always sees the good/Light in others, even when it appears they’re completely lost like Vader.

However, I don’t believe that’s true as evidenced by the OT. When Luke found out Vader was his father, his goal did change to trying to turn him good again to the point he risked death by going into the very heart of the enemy’s lair. But what happened when he was there? What happened when Vader sensed he had a daughter, and said they could turn her to the dark side?

Luke embraced the anger of the dark side, beat the shit out of Vader, and nearly killed him. Now I’m no expert on human psychology, but to me murdering someone suggests you’ve given up on them, on trying to turn Vader good again.

Someone might say,” But he didn’t kill him! He stopped himself!”

That’s true. But why did he stop? Did he remember his plan to turn Vader?

Remember the Cave of Evil scene in ESB where Luke faced the projection of his greatest. His greatest fear wasn’t that he would die. It wasn’t that there was no good left in Vader. His greatest fear was that HE would turn to the dark side.

When Luke bashed Vader and cut off his hand, the sight of Vader’s mechanical stump reminded him of his own mechanical hand. And with the help of some Emperor douchebaggery, Luke realized his greatest fear was coming true. THAT is what shocked him back to “normal.” It wasn’t the love for his father. It wasn’t suddenly remembering his dad had good in him. It was his fear of joining the dark side that put him back on the right path.

So I believe Hamill is wrong. Luke can, momentarily at least, “give up” on someone. But I don’t know if Luke did, or could, give up on Kylo. Vader was essentially a victim of circumstance, an at his core good person who was tricked/trapped by the dark side. Kylo WANTS to be evil. He’s not trapped. He was tricked, but he’s where he wants to be. If Luke didn’t follow him around the galaxy trying to change his mind, is that really giving up on him? I honestly don’t know.
 
Movie was a big dumb mess. I could not give less of a shit about Rey and the rest of the noob crew.
I hate how this new trilogy relies so heavily on nostalgia for the original trilogy while invalidating the events of the of original trilogy.
 
Aazealh said:
You know where my real allegiance lies! :rakshas:

latest
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Talk about mixed bags though! To me Star Trek is ultimate take the bad with the good, or pick and choose wisely, because the good is worth it. But there is infinitly more good material there than Star Wars, it's just hard to parse because there's so damn much in general; wheras Star Wars is like two and half worthwhile movies, a bunch of middling derivatives, and then total shit (I mean, the best stuff from it were the video games).
Anyway, Luke vs. Kirk: Who had a worse end? =)

Skeleton said:
So I believe Hamill is wrong. Luke can, momentarily at least, “give up” on someone. But I don’t know if Luke did, or could, give up on Kylo. Vader was essentially a victim of circumstance, an at his core good person who was tricked/trapped by the dark side. Kylo WANTS to be evil. He’s not trapped. He was tricked, but he’s where he wants to be. If Luke didn’t follow him around the galaxy trying to change his mind, is that really giving up on him? I honestly don’t know.
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Well, I don't think it's such a simple litmus test either, like if Luke can feel moments of despair (of course he can); Hamill even said Luke might take a few years to regroup, but this is about the core, direction and summation of his entire character, and considering his heroism is a large driving force of the original trilogy it's strange that he completely gave up on everyone and everything he cares about for the convenience of this plot. So, I think Hamill is pretty spot on and in touch with the character he's embodied so well over the years (I think I like real life Hamill more than "Jake" from TLJ =). But that's the story Johnson wanted to tell and he tells it about as effectively as can be, but I don't think it's a great or even very true direction to take the character, more like a 'what-if?', and certainly not a worthy swan song (I don't think that was the point, but they took on that burden). Anyway, it's the only Luke-centric sequel we're going to get, so those of us hungry for that will ultimately have to make peace with it or banish it to the prequel zone.

Sareth said:
Movie was a big dumb mess. I could not give less of a shit about Rey and the rest of the noob crew. I hate how this new trilogy relies so heavily on nostalgia for the original trilogy while invalidating the events of the of original trilogy.
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I think I know what choice you'll make! :ganishka: It's a good point that these movies success are largely at the expense of the previous trilogy and characters, undermining their stories and passing on their gloey to a new generation, but I think going at that head on was largely the point of this movie, so credit for honesty at least.


What say you, Wally; where you at? =)
 
Griffith said:
Well, I don't think it's such a simple litmus test either, like if Luke can feel moments of despair (of course he can); Hamill even said Luke might take a few years to regroup, but this is about the core, direction and summation of his entire character, and considering his heroism is a large driving force of the original trilogy it's strange that he completely gave up on everyone and everything he cares about for the convenience of this plot. So, I think Hamill is pretty spot on and in touch with the character he's embodied so well over the years (I think I like real life Hamill more than "Jake" from TLJ =). But that's the story Johnson wanted to tell and he tells it about as effectively as can be, but I don't think it's a great or even very true direction to take the character, more like a 'what-if?', and certainly not a worthy swan song (I don't think that was the point, but they took on that burden). Anyway, it's the only Luke-centric sequel we're going to get, so those of us hungry for that will ultimately have to make peace with it or banish it to the prequel zone.
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I hear you. The people I sincerely feel really bad for are those who spent their lives engulfed in the Expanded Universe material.
I can’t imagine how much it must suck to see how Luke actually ended up after reading countless books about Luke’s post-ROTJ adventures and building up this mythos/idea of him over decades.

My never getting into the EU was a saving grace in this case. I can only go on the logic of “does this make sense within the context of the movies/canon/character?” And Johnson’s decision does so I’m fine with it.

Take Admiral Ackbar as an example. I fucking love the guy. Who doesn’t? He dies in this movie. And everyone was pissed he died semi-off screen. “How could you kill off Ackbar like that?! He deserved better!” But here’s the thing: Ackbar becoming a huge fan favorite doesn’t change the fact he was a bit player in the Star Wars story. Within the context of the story he didn’t deserve a grand, glorious, focused-on death. Doing so would’ve been pure, unnatural fan service. So even though I love the character, I’m fine with the death he got.

Anyway, I understand this thread isn’t meant for my kind of folk so I’ll stop parading on everyone’s rain.
 
Skeleton said:
I hear you. The people I sincerely feel really bad for are those who spent their lives engulfed in the Expanded Universe material.
I can’t imagine how much it must suck to see how Luke actually ended up after reading countless books about Luke’s post-ROTJ adventures and building up this mythos/idea of him over decades.
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Well, as discussed on the podcast, I don't see much distinction between that Extended Universe material and this (another reason I'm not SO upset with it as the fans looking for a "legitimate" successor to Star Wars). This is just another story based on the old Star Wars films, it just so happens to be a major blockbuster by Disney and purports to fit into a very questionable and uneven film canon (written and produced by different people in different eras for different reasons). So, from a practical standpoint that doesn't make it any better, or even more authentic where it counts, than the Thrawn Trilogy for example, it's just bigger, more well-supported and legitimized from a business standpoint, "We're making 'Star Wars movies' again!" I remember when Lucasfilm released the Shadows of the Empire merchandise; book, soundtrack, toys, games. It was referred to as a film release without a film. Disney is doing that but with actual movies, and now they can make them whatever they want, which is probably for the better.

Skeleton said:
My never getting into the EU was a saving grace in this case. I can only go on the logic of “does this make sense within the context of the movies/canon/character?” And Johnson’s decision does so I’m fine with it.
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I wish I could say the same, but like I said Johnson did his own version and unlike Abrams even sort of alluded to the fact that's really all these are: different artists interpretations of Star Wars. It's more Extended Universe than the old EU, which despite also being "Star Wars by other people" it was still all made under the Lucasfilm umbrella for better or worse. Lucas could have made the best of both worlds by hiring the Abrams and Johnsons of the world himself to do his actual sequel ideas, but he "sold his children to the white slavers" so now we'll never know. :ganishka:

Skeleton said:
Take Admiral Ackbar as an example. I fucking love the guy. Who doesn’t? He dies in this movie. And everyone was pissed he died semi-off screen. “How could you kill off Ackbar like that?! He deserved better!” But here’s the thing: Ackbar becoming a huge fan favorite doesn’t change the fact he was a bit player in the Star Wars story. Within the context of the story he didn’t deserve a grand, glorious, focused-on death. Doing so would’ve been pure, unnatural fan service. So even though I love the character, I’m fine with the death he got.
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I completely agree, as a matter of fact it was fan service mentioning his death at all. There was no reason to be upset about that because, like you say, he was merely important to the fandom for largely ironic reasons they've since developed nostalgic feelings about, not his role in the story. Luke Skywalker, on the other hand...

Skeleton said:
Anyway, I understand this thread isn’t meant for my kind of folk so I’ll stop parading on everyone’s rain.
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Don't worry, your sunshine won't dissipate my rainclouds. =) Like I've been saying though, I'm not even sure where the scales will end up on my overall opinion. Currently, I'd rank it behind TFA but still ahead of R1 and the Prequels (so, TESB, SW, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, R1, AotC, RotS, ... TPM). We've said it before, but the Disney Star Wars movies kind of exist in a class of their own, naturally not as good as the transcendent classics they're emulating (though TLJ makes the best effort to literally separate itself, and in some ways feels like the first original new Star Wars movie, with TFA and R1 being kind of like transition/nostalgia films to ween us off that old Star Wars), but there's almost no way they could be less competently made than the prequels unless Kathleen Kennedy develops a serious substance abuse problem or something.
 
Griffith said:
Currently, I'd rank it behind TFA but still ahead of R1 and the Prequels (so, TESB, SW, RotJ, TFA, TLJ, R1, AotC, RotS, ... TPM).
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For shits and giggles, here's mine:

Empire
RotJ
ANH
R1
AotC
RotS
TPM
TFA
TLJ

The only reason I put the prequels above the new Disney stuff is due to the Clone Wars animated series. As I've said countless times on the boards, that series takes the veil of shit off of the prequels and makes them enjoyable.

Also, if you are in to comics, I highly recommend most of the new Marvel stuff. The Vader series have been fantastic, as well as the ongoing monthly just titled Star Wars. So far it's been really cool and has added a lot of stuff between ANH and Empire.
 
Griffith said:
Talk about mixed bags though! To me Star Trek is ultimate take the bad with the good, or pick and choose wisely, because the good is worth it. But there is infinitly more good material there than Star Wars, it's just hard to parse because there's so damn much in general; wheras Star Wars is like two and half worthwhile movies, a bunch of middling derivatives, and then total shit (I mean, the best stuff from it were the video games).
Click to expand...

Yep, jokes aside, Trek is so expansive it's almost work to watch it all, and there's tons of garbage to sift through.

Griffith said:
Anyway, Luke vs. Kirk: Who had a worse end? =)
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Kirk, no question. I mean despite the hatchet job they did on Luke's character, his final moments aren't so bad. His confrontation with the First Order is pretty damn badass and he makes a fool out of Kylo Ren in a way that I feel is true to who he should be (a benevolent Jedi master who does not want to fight his nephew to the death). And while his death itself is pretty ridiculous and lacking in dramatic weight (reminiscent of Padme's...), the setting suns make for some cool imagery. Meanwhile Kirk fell from a bridge. A death worthy of a redshirt.
 
I don't have a lot more to add to the thread that hasn't already been reviewed, and now I have to listen to the last half of the podcast ( :magni: ) , but here is my take.

It wasn't bad! I just didn't care about 5/6 of the stories forced into this overlong movie, so I'm not going to bother commenting on storylines that I gave no shits about, like a slow-speed ship chase, a pointless coup, or a circular casino raid. What mattered to me was that Luke felt like Old Luke. Even if it didn't truly amount to much, it's what I wanted from him -- to feel what the years had done to him conveyed through his acting, not a montage, or simply being told about his bitterness. And his motivation to remove himself from the stage made sense to me. The unspoken message of his hermitage was that systemic abuse of the force needed to be wiped from the chess board (He really should have taken care of the Kylo problem before he retired though, just saying, that's a bit messy for a "Jedi Master.")

But the writers/franchise holders want to have it both ways -- criticizing the Jedi order (a really hot take too, the order has been dead for 50 goddamned years) while also keeping the Jedi tomes and preserving monk-like force mastery in an (arbitrarily) NEW codified form! Presumably because they still need to market lightsabers to kids (It's been a few years, but my rant about Disney's franchise syndrome compromising storytelling remains the same).

Advancing the Snoke takedown from the presumed final act was a rush (who was he again? in any case man of great taste judging by his awesome furnishings, wow!), but where they've taken Kylo's character is extremely boring to me. I went in liking his character quite a bit, thinking there was potential there. And I liked the interplay with him and Rey -- expanding the distance-crossing Force conversations into what... Skype for Force 2017? But it wasn't to be. And once the veil was lifted about the root of his anger: a nihilistic tearing down of history, what's left of him isn't much to look at, certainly not something that evokes fear. Luke essentially holds him at arm's length while Kylo swings over and over, like watching Isidro fight Guts. Dude has never been a threat on screen. He doesn't exude terror like someone who wields unchecked dark side aggression should. Even without his little cosplay helmet, he still comes across as a whiny child demanding the galaxy to take him seriously. And now this galactic goth kid has become the de facto leader of a group of preppies pining after their dad's lost cause. Speaking of which, I still can't look at Hux and not think about some archetype of the Revenge of the Nerds villains. No change from TFA, so not sure what the audience is supposed to feel about his character other than embarassment. Not sure any of this adds up to great drama for a climactic conclusion.

The film casting the military-industrial complex like a skin over the endless conflict felt like an interesting touch at first. I'll always listen when someone attempts to do a real-world deconstruction of cartoon-like wars. But this one rang hollow, because it's fucking Disney, people. This is a missive from the Entertainment Empire, lecturing us about the folly of choosing sides when the middle man gets fat on the blood of the sheep caught in the perpetual war. I didn't check, but it wouldn't be crazy if Bob Iger had a cameo at the casino scene.

And that's sort of where I was left, as I processed my thoughts on the drive back: I'm still not sure why this needs to exist. I feel like they're saying something about the Star Wars mythos with this movie, but it doesn't amount to very much, and there's a whole lot of filler in between.

I'm not really interested in ranking the movie against the others, but I thought this was a fine entry. I enjoyed it more than Force Wakens, mostly because the remix nature of that movie still rubs me the wrong way. This was at the very least a new experience.
 
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