The Thread of Zelda

[Walter]

http://8tracks.com/teamteamwork/the-ocarina-of-rhyme

Some are pretty cool, others are just awful. I've seen a few of these on YouTube, and most are at the same time awesome and hilarious. I'll try to find a few more of the good ones and post them here.

2pac w/ Bloody Tears from Castlevania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PbhhqDaM54
Jay-Z w/ Heart of Fire from Castlevania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXxcNvg3w0M
DMX w/ Snake Man from Mega Man 3 (lol) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDq8Fc2SMjU
Outkast w/ Blizzard man from Mega Man 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NkCDRHqw_M
And this one, with Biggie, just has to be heard to understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydq0sHIEUhE

 

[Griffith]

Replaying Twilight Princess, enjoying it. What's the general consensus on where it fits on the all-time Zelda awesomeness scale? That's partly why I'm replaying it, I can't decide if it's technically the best ever, or if it kind of beats it into the ground.

 

[Walter]

Id have to give TP another round myself to objectively say where it falls. Right now, after my first playthrough it's in about fifth place.

1) Link to the Past
2) Ocarina of Time
3) Legend of Zelda
4) Link's Awakening
5) Twilight Princess

 

[Griffith]

Here's my list:

1) Ocarina of Time

So, it's all or nothing, TP's gotta beat that, or fall somewhere into the pack behind A Link to the Past in my mind.

 

[Bekul]

I can't decide if it's technically the best ever, or if it kind of beats it into the ground.

Haha, if you're even having to ask yourself that, I think you've already come up with your own answer.

Myself, I liked it! I liked it better when it was called Ocarina of Time, the first time playing it. It's a good, solid Zelda game, and this is one of the few franchises where I'm not making a 2d/3d demarcation in the series history, because Zelda is one of the exceedingly few game that haven't suffered by being presented in 3d.

Not as good as either Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past, certainly more fun that Windwaker... again, it's a solid Zelda game. Worth playing if you like Zelda games! If you don't like Zelda games...

 

[Saephon]

See, in my opinion, Twilight Princess is almost identical to Ocarina, and Ocarina is nearly a 3D version of Link to the Past. Thus, ALttP is my favorite out of originality's sake. Don't get me wrong, I still love those games. But I'm one of those guys who thinks Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are hugely underrated; I'm growing tired of the Zelda formula and I really enjoy when they break from the mold. Link's Awakening is another great example.

 

[Dar_Klink]

See, in my opinion, Twilight Princess is almost identical to Ocarina, and Ocarina is nearly a 3D version of Link to the Past. Thus, ALttP is my favorite out of originality's sake. Don't get me wrong, I still love those games. But I'm one of those guys who thinks Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are hugely underrated; I'm growing tired of the Zelda formula and I really enjoy when they break from the mold. Link's Awakening is another great example.

I agree with everything you said, and MM, WW, and LA are actually my favorite in the series.... not to say that I don't like the other, more popular ones, I just enjoyed those the most. Also, Toon Link may be the cutest but he's also the only one who

Spoiler

stabbed Ganon in the fucking head

 

[Bekul]

Also, Toon Link may be the cutest but he's also the only one who

Spoiler

stabbed Ganon in the fucking head

Spoiler

With, if I'm remembering correctly, one of the few, if not the only representations in a Zelda game of

Spoiler

actual red blood

.

I'll admit, I cheered. Badass Link was badass.

 

[Aazealh]

See, in my opinion, Twilight Princess is almost identical to Ocarina, and Ocarina is nearly a 3D version of Link to the Past.

I'd really like to see you back that up with details. The formula may not have evolved much over the years, but OoT is hardly just a 3D version of Zelda 3 and TP isn't just OoT with updated graphics either.

 

[Griffith]

Haha, if you're even having to ask yourself that, I think you've already come up with your own answer.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as I typed that, but still, I play on. There's still a lot to like specifically about that game, and lot of this is subjective (for example, I can't play TP coming off LttP when 13 years old in 1998 =).

See, in my opinion, Twilight Princess is almost identical to Ocarina, and Ocarina is nearly a 3D version of Link to the Past. Thus, ALttP is my favorite out of originality's sake. Don't get me wrong, I still love those games. But I'm one of those guys who thinks Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are hugely underrated; I'm growing tired of the Zelda formula and I really enjoy when they break from the mold. Link's Awakening is another great example.

I agree with you about Wind Waker being underrated, but like Aaz, I find your LttP and OoT comparison dubious. What LttP and OoT have in common are some superficial story elements and gameplay motifs that almost every Zelda game have in common, such as names, dungeon crawling, reflecting enemy attacks, and item collecting to advance the story. Otherwise, OoT was a completely new style of presentation as well as gameplay, with a ton of innovations therein, but done so seamlessly that you could even think it was really similar to LttP (it's a compliment in a way). Anyway, OoT is as original as Zelda had been since the first game, literally reinventing the series and action adventure games as we knew them. It's INSANE revisionist history to give it a demerit for lack of originally now, especially compared to the games that followed in OoT's footsteps like MM and WW, that are even more derivative of its style than it is of any Zelda game before it.

Anyway, on that note, I also agree with you about the formula needing a jolt since OoT, which might be what holds me back from totally embracing TP.

I agree with everything you said, and MM, WW, and LA are actually my favorite in the series.... not to say that I don't like the other, more popular ones, I just enjoyed those the most. Also, Toon Link may be the cutest but he's also the only one who

Spoiler

stabbed Ganon in the fucking head

Not for that (and do we really need to spoiler tag it at this point? =), but Wind Waker was ironically a lot more grown up in many ways despite it's childish exterior. It's self-aware sense of humor, modern tone and ideas, and some surprisingly abstract concepts and good dialogue by characters (even Ganon at the end, for example) were a breath of fresh air in that game.

Less recognized in light of it's (once) unique visual style is that it also stands out musically, particularly the fusion of action and music in battle. I still can't get over how cool it is that strings come in to the battle score when you draw your sword.

TP isn't just OoT with updated graphics either.

Maybe that's not a good thing, since it's so reverential and self-indulgent, for better and for worse, it almost feels more old-fashioned than its predecessors. I suppose I should be playing it for Wii instead of GameCube though if I'm going to compare it to OoT as far as relative advancement goes. Still, that won't change the pace.

 

[Aazealh]

Maybe that's not a good thing, since it's so reverential and self-indulgent, for better and for worse, it almost feels more old-fashioned than its predecessors. I suppose I should be playing it for Wii instead of GameCube though if I'm going to compare it to OoT as far as relative advancement goes. Still, that won't change the pace.

Oh I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that I don't think it's "almost identical" to OoT. In fact I would say it tries too hard to be different without being especially innovative.

 

[Griffith]

Oh I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that I don't think it's "almost identical" to OoT. In fact I would say it tries too hard to be different without being especially innovative.

I didn't think you were saying it's good or bad, but now that you mention it, it sounds like we agree it wasn't necessarily a good thing. =)

Speaking of which, the biggest flaw in the early part of TP for me is the wolf/twilight segments. I don't feel like I'm playing Zelda, which is fine, except I don't particularly like what I am playing either (bug hunt dog!). Various other mandatory side quests fall into this no man's land as well, where it feels like I have to do my chores before I can explore or go to the next dungeon.

 

[Saephon]

I'd really like to see you back that up with details. The formula may not have evolved much over the years, but OoT is hardly just a 3D version of Zelda 3 and TP isn't just OoT with updated graphics either.

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT

Well, first let me say that I think I worded my post very poorly. It's for the best that most of the gameplay has been roughly similar in each game, and I don't think either of those games are JUST copies; OoT is probably my second favorite Zelda game, and added a lot of new things. I think what I should have said is that OoT and TP both borrow major Story and pacing elements from A Link to the Past. Let's see if I can break it down appropriately:


1. Link is nobody important (farmboy, son of a soldier, fairy boy) who is rather naive about the world.
2. Link is thrust into a situation and goes to three dungeons to gather three medallions.
3. He then acquires the Master Sword. OoT gets bonus points for having something new and cool, the Temple of Time. ALttP and TP however, have it in the Lost Woods.
4. A greater threat is revealed. In ALttP you find out Aghanim is a puppet to Ganon. Same thing for Zant in Twilight Princess.
5. Transformation of the World: ALttP - Link is in the same world, but its Dark Realm. OoT - Seven years in the future (but due to the events that have happened, everything is, well, "darker"). Twilight Princess - The Twilight Realm, obviously.
5. Link goes forth to about 5 dungeons, many of them related to elements such as Fire, Water, Shadow, Light, etc. In both ALttP and OoT he rescues Sages, so that their combined power can weaken or at least provide a path to Ganon.
6. Finally, you travel to where Hyrule Castle should be, which is now Ganon's Castle. This is present in all three games.

Now, to clarify my stance and reiterate what I said in the beginning, I don't dislike any of these games. Ocarina of Time was a fantastic 3D debut for the series and I have many fond memories. But I really believe that at its heart, it is a 3D port of A Link to the Past, albeit with a few new and well-executed gameplay mechanics. In a more disappointing vein, Twilight Princess takes most of what OoT did right (Z-targeting, hotkeying multiple weapons at a time), and I feel a lot of what makes TP a good game at all can be found in Ocarina. The new elements it boasts, such as the wolf form, Twilight Realm, and the wii controls, were just unenjoyable to me. At no point did I feel they made the game more fun, especially the Wii controls, though in all fairness that's more of a complaint that they ported the game when it should have stayed on the Gamecube. I think the only really new elements I loved were horseback combat and Midna instead of Navi.

One final point I'd like to make before anyone accuses me of being a masochistic Zelda fan . More importantly than the repetition of the things I've listed above is Twilight Princess's failure to remove/correct a lot of Ocarina of Time's flaws. In OoT, there was something about Hyrule that bothered me: why does this incredibly important, supposedly vast land have three human settlements and a ranch? Spread amongst Hyrule Castle Town, Kakariko Village, and Kokiri Forest, I'd estimate there to be around a hundred characters in Hyrule max, many of which do not have more than one or two lines of dialogue. Now obviously this game had many hardware limitations, and I'm not asking for over a hundred fully fleshed out characters. What I AM asking for is at least a subtle implication that the world's at stake here, and that there are more than a dozen interesting people in Hyrule. By mimicking OoT's landscape, TP did nothing to change this feeling I got. Sure, the Castle Town had a lot more NPCs, but they were also just background characters going about their AI-patrol business. No interaction with them was possible.

Couldn't someone mention what lies beyond Hyrule's boundaries, or at least wonder what may lie there? And if there wasn't anything over the horizon, if this really is how large the world is....well, I've got to say that reduces the epicness of the tale a bit. Even discussion about interspecies relations is very minimal in Zelda games. Everyone just kind of....lives in their designated spot. I don't think this would bother me much if it weren't for the fact that Majora's Mask actually gave most NPCs a life: they had schedules, places they visited, errands and problems. It's disappointing to see that absent in Twilight Princess.



Sorry for the gigantic rant Like I said, I've played and enjoyed nearly every Zelda game since the very first one, and if you disagree with any of those points (or think my complaints are ridiculous ), that's really fine by me. Perhaps I'm just beginning to grow weary of video game series that shun sequels in favor of reusing content. *cough* Final Fantasy* I kind of miss the fanboy I was when I was fifteen.

 

[CowTip]

I agree with everything you said, and MM, WW, and LA are actually my favorite in the series.... not to say that I don't like the other, more popular ones, I just enjoyed those the most. Also, Toon Link may be the cutest but he's also the only one who

Spoiler

stabbed Ganon in the fucking head

Actually the whole head stab thing was started in OoT if I recall correctly. The scene had red blood as well, but someone deemed it too over the top so later copies of the game have the scene re-edited with green blood. It's actually become a theme in these games as

Spoiler

in the ending of Spirit Tracks Link slowly jams his sword into the final bosses head with the help of Zelda pushing on him, though in this scene you're basically shoving your sword into a giant crystal on the bosses forehead.

 

[Aphasia]

Majoras mask is such an excellent Zelda Game. It's my favorite out of the series, with I think good reason. The Zelda formula was there but it was changed up so much that it became unique to the other games...I really hope the next one does something to break the cycle a bit. I think Zelda games are at their strongest when they try bold new ideas.

Has anyone played Braid? I just beat it last night. It has to be one of the deepest most sophisticated games I've ever played. Just beautiful...I highly recommend it if you like good games, I'm not even a huge puzzle guy and this game made me spend hours just contemplating how to get that next puzzle piece. : D

 

[Griffith]

Well, first let me say that I think I worded my post very poorly. It's for the best that most of the gameplay has been roughly similar in each game, and I don't think either of those games are JUST copies; OoT is probably my second favorite Zelda game, and added a lot of new things. I think what I should have said is that OoT and TP both borrow major Story and pacing elements from A Link to the Past. Let's see if I can break it down appropriately:

1. Link is nobody important (farmboy, son of a soldier, fairy boy) who is rather naive about the world.
2. Link is thrust into a situation and goes to three dungeons to gather three medallions.
3. He then acquires the Master Sword. OoT gets bonus points for having something new and cool, the Temple of Time. ALttP and TP however, have it in the Lost Woods.
4. A greater threat is revealed. In ALttP you find out Aghanim is a puppet to Ganon. Same thing for Zant in Twilight Princess.
5. Transformation of the World: ALttP - Link is in the same world, but its Dark Realm. OoT - Seven years in the future (but due to the events that have happened, everything is, well, "darker"). Twilight Princess - The Twilight Realm, obviously.
5. Link goes forth to about 5 dungeons, many of them related to elements such as Fire, Water, Shadow, Light, etc. In both ALttP and OoT he rescues Sages, so that their combined power can weaken or at least provide a path to Ganon.
6. Finally, you travel to where Hyrule Castle should be, which is now Ganon's Castle. This is present in all three games.

Well, you didn't need to make a list telling us Link wears green in every game. =)

As far as ALttP and OoT are concerned, like I said, those are still superficial resemblances and vagaries in some cases, compared to how vastly different those games are overall, including the plots, which are clearly and specifically more different than they are the same. Also, since OoT is a directly related prequel to ALttP, it makes sense that they have some common reference points such as the sages, with OoT defining a unique origin story for the existing mythology, not just recycling or cannibalizing it.

Ocarina of Time was a fantastic 3D debut for the series and I have many fond memories. But I really believe that at its heart, it is a 3D port of A Link to the Past, albeit with a few new and well-executed gameplay mechanics.

What!? A 3D port of ALttP? A few new gameplay mechanics? That's beyond poorly worded, it doesn't make sense. For the few inherent art and concept similarities they share, these two games are vastly different, like 95% different overall. How about ALL the gameplay mechanics being new and different? Literally how you see, move, explore, swing a sword, throw a bomb, shoot an arrow, or experience and interact with the game world is different from all the previous games, not just ALttP. At best, what you're saying describes a vague way to perceive the general traits inherent to the entire Zelda series, even those retained when the series was adapted to 3D, though completely different and original in their function. Otherwise, by your logic, ALttP is merely a "port" of the original Legend of Zelda to Super Nintendo, but even that isn't comparable to the fundamental differences between OoT and ALttP, and every Zelda game that came before (OoT has as much in common with Zelda II as ALttP).

I really think you're taking all that for granted after a decade of 3D gaming being the norm. Let me put it this way, if you changed the names, and maybe Link's and the Triforce's design, nobody would ever think ALttP and OoT had anything in common, let alone confuse one for an adaptation of the other.

One final point I'd like to make before anyone accuses me of being a masochistic Zelda fan . More importantly than the repetition of the things I've listed above is Twilight Princess's failure to remove/correct a lot of Ocarina of Time's flaws. In OoT, there was something about Hyrule that bothered me: why does this incredibly important, supposedly vast land have three human settlements and a ranch? Spread amongst Hyrule Castle Town, Kakariko Village, and Kokiri Forest, I'd estimate there to be around a hundred characters in Hyrule max, many of which do not have more than one or two lines of dialogue. Now obviously this game had many hardware limitations, and I'm not asking for over a hundred fully fleshed out characters.

Wait, you're denying that you're masochistic Zelda fan while complaining there aren't enough NPCs to have banal conversion with? You're a sick man. =)

Now obviously this game had many hardware limitations, and I'm not asking for over a hundred fully fleshed out characters. What I AM asking for is at least a subtle implication that the world's at stake here, and that there are more than a dozen interesting people in Hyrule. By mimicking OoT's landscape, TP did nothing to change this feeling I got. Sure, the Castle Town had a lot more NPCs, but they were also just background characters going about their AI-patrol business. No interaction with them was possible.

Well, you are contradicting yourself somewhat in that on one hand you're saying you just want a sense of a fully populated world at stake, not additional characters, but that you also want to be able to talk to all of them. I think there's too much of that going on in Twilight Princess with forced interaction already, I preferred OoT's simpler, in many ways more free, world. You can plow through it more like the old ones, and it literally had a sort of fairy tale atmosphere that worked well within its constraints; a smaller, but more intimate world. TP is kind of stuck somewhere in between that kind of feel and something more epic.

Couldn't someone mention what lies beyond Hyrule's boundaries, or at least wonder what may lie there? And if there wasn't anything over the horizon, if this really is how large the world is....well, I've got to say that reduces the epicness of the tale a bit. Even discussion about interspecies relations is very minimal in Zelda games. Everyone just kind of....lives in their designated spot. I don't think this would bother me much if it weren't for the fact that Majora's Mask actually gave most NPCs a life: they had schedules, places they visited, errands and problems. It's disappointing to see that absent in Twilight Princess.

I think it's an issue of the series overall having certain traits and, now, self-imposed limitations, for better or worse. Though WW certainly conveyed the sense of a vast world, and in that regard TP was a step backward. Maybe some day they'll make a huge one with multiple Hyrule-sized land masses, settlements, oceans and boats, but it's not like they'd be the first now, and instead they seem to have opted not to make Zelda into a full blown RPG world. *shudder* That doesn't bother me though, bigger isn't always better, or more immersive (a mix of a TP and WW type environment would be natural and welcome though). Frankly (side rant), I hate feeling obligated to talking to a bunch of worthless NPCs, especially now with voice acting in every major RPG and every character having a slew of nothing to say. The only thing worse than having to read a bunch of crappy NPC dialogue, even critical plot stuff, is to have to sit and listen while someone reads it to you.

Sorry for the gigantic rant Like I said, I've played and enjoyed nearly every Zelda game since the very first one, and if you disagree with any of those points (or think my complaints are ridiculous ), that's really fine by me. Perhaps I'm just beginning to grow weary of video game series that shun sequels in favor of reusing content. *cough* Final Fantasy* I kind of miss the fanboy I was when I was fifteen.

Yeah, despite our glaring disagreements and different perspective on the series, I enjoyed ranting right back. One thing I think we agree on is where the series has headed as of late, and that it needs to find a way to make itself new again.

 

[Death May Die]

I look at most Zelda games as they're own thing. They tend not line up well. The last Zelda game I enjoy a lot was the four sword adventure. I thought TP was good. I'm looking forward to a follow up.

Let the AVGNERD explain:

EDIT: http://screwattack.com/videos/AVGN-Zelda-Timeline-1

http://www.cinemassacre.com/new/?p=3870

 

[Aazealh]

I think you guys have got this all covered so here are just some small comments.

1. Link is nobody important (farmboy, son of a soldier, fairy boy) who is rather naive about the world.

That's the premise of practically every youthful adventure story ever. Including Zelda 1.

3. He then acquires the Master Sword. OoT gets bonus points for having something new and cool, the Temple of Time. ALttP and TP however, have it in the Lost Woods.
4. A greater threat is revealed. In ALttP you find out Aghanim is a puppet to Ganon. Same thing for Zant in Twilight Princess.
5. Transformation of the World: ALttP - Link is in the same world, but its Dark Realm. OoT - Seven years in the future (but due to the events that have happened, everything is, well, "darker"). Twilight Princess - The Twilight Realm, obviously.

I should point out that these things don't actually happen in the exact same order. The Twilight realm, for example, is involved very early in TP. Ah and the sword is also the Temple of Time in TP. But the temple is in the woods.

5. Link goes forth to about 5 dungeons, many of them related to elements such as Fire, Water, Shadow, Light, etc. In both ALttP and OoT he rescues Sages, so that their combined power can weaken or at least provide a path to Ganon.

There are more than 5 dungeons in Zelda 3. And in TP you get 4 shards not to face Ganon but Zant.

Twilight Princess takes most of what OoT did right (Z-targeting, hotkeying multiple weapons at a time)

As did countless other games not related to the series. That's more to OoT's credit for doing it perfectly than anything else.

More importantly than the repetition of the things I've listed above is Twilight Princess's failure to remove/correct a lot of Ocarina of Time's flaws. In OoT, there was something about Hyrule that bothered me: why does this incredibly important, supposedly vast land have three human settlements and a ranch? Spread amongst Hyrule Castle Town, Kakariko Village, and Kokiri Forest, I'd estimate there to be around a hundred characters in Hyrule max, many of which do not have more than one or two lines of dialogue. Now obviously this game had many hardware limitations, and I'm not asking for over a hundred fully fleshed out characters. What I AM asking for is at least a subtle implication that the world's at stake here, and that there are more than a dozen interesting people in Hyrule.

Yeah, that's a more valid complaint. Hyrule was hardly ever a proper kingdom. I've also found their approach of this aspect of the game very unambitious in TP.

Also, since OoT is a directly related prequel to ALttP, it makes sense that they have some common reference points such as the sages, with OoT defining a unique origin story for the existing mythology, not just recycling or cannibalizing it.

Same goes for Twilight Princess. It's supposed to be a sequel to OoT paralleling the events of WW. Of course we all know those timelines make no sense, but that's the official word on it.

Otherwise, by your logic, ALttP is merely a "port" of the original Legend of Zelda to Super Nintendo, but even that isn't comparable to the fundamental differences between OoT and ALttP, and every Zelda game that came before (OoT has as much in common with Zelda II as ALttP).

I disagree with saying that OoT has as much in common with Zelda II as with Zelda 3. It does follow the same formula, while Zelda II was its own thing (Shadow of the Colossus follows the Zelda II formula! ). And while the term "port" is inappropriate, I wouldn't be very bothered if someone called Zelda 3 a remake of Zelda 1.

Spoiler

By getting the stars you are in fact being just like Tim, following his mistake.

Yes.

 

[DirectDK]

All this talk about Zelda TP makes me so sad. I bought my Wii and TP day of launch way back when... but that was around when I had moved to the east coast. Of course, though, I took 'em a long with me, but I had trouble finding time to play.

FINALLY, when I got to playing it... I was loving it. Collecting all the bugs, trying to get every heart container, etc... until one day, like 80% done with the game (so I've been told), I saved my game in the canon room, and turned off my system.

THE CANON ROOM. FOR THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW. DON'T SAVE IN THE CANON ROOM.

So yeah, it was a glitch that is present in the first run of TP discs, and if you save in the canon room, your file becomes corrupt, and you can't progress in the game. It is so very sad.

Good news though, I can send in my disc and Nintendo will replace it with a new one... but I was so disheartened I hadn't gotten around to do it. One day...

 

[Griffith]

As did countless other games not related to the series. That's more to OoT's credit for doing it perfectly than anything else.

I actually still like the Z-Targeting in that game better than later titles such as WW and TP, the fact that you don't have to hold the button down to stay locked on, basically.

I disagree with saying that OoT has as much in common with Zelda II as with Zelda 3. It does follow the same formula, while Zelda II was its own thing (Shadow of the Colossus follows the Zelda II formula! ).

I didn't mean the formula for progression, but from a gameplay standpoint running around and fighting enemies in 3D combines elements of 2D sidescrolling as well as 2D lookdown, while also being just as different from either.

And while the term "port" is inappropriate, I wouldn't be very bothered if someone called Zelda 3 a remake of Zelda 1.

Neither would I, but there was this notion that somehow Zelda 3 was totally original while OoT is derivative of it on the whole, which is doubly specious. OoT owes something to ALttP to be sure, but so do they both to the original Zelda, a lot more.

THE CANON ROOM. FOR THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW. DON'T SAVE IN THE CANON ROOM.

Oh no, you're an original canon room victim? Funny, I literally thought about it last night when I stepped into the canon, "If I saved right now..."

One thing though, and sorry if this is a touchy subject, but what possesses someone to step into the canon, then to save and quit? =)

 

[DirectDK]

Oh no, you're an original canon room victim? Funny, I literally thought about it last night when I stepped into the canon, "If I saved right now..."

One thing though, and sorry if this is a touchy subject, but what possesses someone to step into the canon, then to save and quit? =)

Yeah... I'm one of dem dumbies . Well, the reason actually was because I had just finished the dungeon before that, and knew that the next one was

Spoiler

the sky one which looked super cool! I always love dungeons/castles in the sky (secret of mana, and laputa)

. So I decided to take a break, and save it for the next day when I'm all refreshed. Sure enough, the next day... all excited to play... I was like "Ummm... why can't I leave this room..." So sad.

 

[Walter]

For me, ALttP rules over OoT because it has stood the test of time. It took an existing formula from LoZ and honed it down to near-perfection within the SNES limitations. OoT was pioneering new territory, so it earns marks in a completely different realm for being original and bold. But it sure is tough to look at now, and feels clunky by today's standards if you take off rose-tinted glasses.

Another factor for me was the vastness of ALttP compared to OoT. ALttP immediately makes the player feel overwhelmed by the hugeness of the world near the very beginning (collect 3 medals and beat the boss! ... but wait, that's just the beginning!). OoT has only about 1-2 dungeons less, but the world feels much smaller to me. This is thanks in part to Hyrule field, the central hub of the game, being devoid of much action/interaction, whereas nearly every screen in ALttP has something to do in it.

What it amounts to is that the minute-to-minute gameplay in ALttP is more solid than OoT. There's more to do, more to see, on each screen than in OoT, which is constructed like an actual world, and, as I've said before, was trying on a whole new pair of shoes so it had its own hurdles to climb.

Ultimately, there's really no point in knocking either of these games. They're both essentials, and no one should ever skip out on either. The ending to Z64 is one of my absolute favorites.

Spoiler

Watching Link put away the sword, returning to normal life as a child,

always seemed to me one of the best allegories for the relationship between game and player in the entire industry.

But I've always leaned more toward ALttP as the reigning champ for the above reasons.

 

[Griffith]

The ending to Z64 is one of my absolute favorites.

Spoiler

Watching Link put away the sword, returning to normal life as a child,

always seemed to me one of the best allegories for the relationship between game and player in the entire industry.

Agreed, and I'm glad you brought that up, I was thinking specifically about that today, and, in addition to what you said, how that child/adult relationship was such an effective device for the game's intended audience to relate to. Particularly myself, as at the time I was in fact between the ages Link is depicted both as a child and young adult. It's underrated how effectively it tapped into that feeling, of not being a kid anymore and not wanting to be treated like one, but not yet being a man either, and the overall desire to be grown up. Plenty of fantasies aimed at young boys have exploited that theme, but rarely so directly and interactively... and people thought it was just a neat time travel gimmick. =)


Anyway, I've avoided comparing ALttP and OoT directly, as it's problematic to look at them without rose-colored goggles, and to truly do that would probably change our views of both games, both sacred cows. Also, standing the test of time depends on how one defines it, both as a game, and as a gaming experience (I'll come back to this later).

I wouldn't write a false word against either, let alone a classic like ALttP (except to say that Link inexplicably had pink hair, which bothers me to this day =), but I will say a few things strictly about why I like OoT. Such as how what it has that could seem like less, is actually more; starting with an added dimension. This literally added more depth, more variety, of truly unique terrains and locales, more variety of action, as well as unprecedented immersion and interactivity, it even added more personality... just more to the game overall, like having another sense with which to experience it.

These things haven't changed about it since 1998, and it certainly didn't change Zelda for the worse; of all classic game series to move to 3D, it made for the most sensible and seamless transition, like it was meant to be. It once again took that Zelda formula that ALttP perfected on SNES and did it again, making another perfect game in its own right for the N64, and literally adding a new dimension, which has remained the standard ever since for flagship titles in the series.

For those reasons, for which I've also had the most enjoyable experience of any game in the series, Ocarina of Time truly stands the test of time.

 

[Aazealh]

While you guys were busy debating I beat Zelda II's first 3 castles before sleeping yesterday. Too bad my GBA cartridge doesn't keep saves anymore.

 

[Griffith]

While you guys were busy debating I beat Zelda II's first 3 castles before sleeping yesterday. Too bad my GBA cartridge doesn't keep saves anymore.

Oh, that sucks, and you just reminded me why I was never as into the original NES Zeldas; I got my Nintendo second hand from my cousin, and though I got both games from him, both had dead batteries. =)

Kind of put a damper on my enthusiasm for exploration, and so I didn't really play them through until later in life. Kind of bummed about that now, seeing how much enjoyment you obviously got/get out of them.