Was Guts' entire life up until the Eclipse manipulated by the Godhand?

[BrandedInFlames]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker here, and I finally decided to make an account after reading the manga again. I figured now was a good time, since I can understand the themes a little better than before.

So anyway, my question is about causality and the idea of evil. I get that causality is the overarching mechanic that drives everything in the world of Berserk, as per the Idea of Evil's design, and that the Godhand is the will of the Idea of Evil. I also know that Griffith's entire life was orchestrated by Causality since birth to become a member of the Godhand, and that the Godhand aided in this endeavour throughout his life. What I want to know is, did the Godhand do the same to Guts, too, knowing he would be instrumental to Griffith's rise and fall and rise again? If Zodd knew (which is why I presume he threw the sword to him during the fight with Boscogne), then surely Void (who has power and domain over Causality) would've known far ahead of time, before his birth, that Guts was going to be a master swordsman who would unknowingly aid Griffith in becoming a member of the Godhand.

Expanding on the idea of the Godhand's ability to exact their will in the physical realm, I'd like to discuss how far their influence extends among exceptional humans, such as Guts. We've seen how Conrad used plague rats to create mass hysteria, priming the citizens to accept Griffith as their saviour when he was reincarnated. Is it possible that the Godhand manifested itself in a similar manner at pivotal moments in Gut's early life to ensure that he would become the man he needed to be to help Griffith? I know these are just assumptions and that if we haven't seen visual manifestations, similar to plague rats forming Conrad, there is no solid evidence of this occurring in Guts' life. I would surmise, however, that this could also be a narrative decision by the author, as we, the readers, aren't meant to know the full extent of the Godhand's purpose, or even their role within the nexus of causality, world events, game changers, etc., at this point in time, even though we see them in the black swordsman arc.

Nevertheless, here's a breakdown of what I think on which members may have been involved at significant points in Guts' life:

Guts, born from a corpse and found by Gambino immediately after - definitely Void's influence given his domain over Causality
Gambino's wife's death from the plague - Conrad, obviously, through targeted exposure
Donovan's lust towards Guts and Gambino's acceptance of payment for his rape - you can say Slan was involved here since her domain is lust and carnality. Ubik may have already been working his influence on Gambino long beforehand, since his domain is psychological warfare and the creation of mental constructs/hallucinations
Gambino's mental deterioration and sudden hate towards Guts, blaming him for his wife's death - Ubik again
Everything onward till the eclipse (especially Guts' presence during Griffith's friendship speech, which led to his fateful decision to leave) - Idea of Evil & Void

All of these events were significant turning points and shaped his worldview, leading him to train intensively and, unwittingly, to contribute to the Idea of Evil's design. This eventually culminated in his encounter with Griffith and acceptance into the Band of the Hawk. In accordance with the IoE's grand design, they would then go on to win numerous battles and rise in rank until the fateful moment that Guts made the decision to leave. Essentially, the Godhand set the stage in Guts' early life so that the IoE's grand design could begin to take firm hold of their destinies, putting them on a collision course toward the eclipse.

 

[TheItCrow]

Hi!

What I want to know is, did the Godhand do the same to Guts, too, knowing he would be instrumental to Griffith's rise and fall and rise again?

Everyone is affected by causality, because only then is it truly effective. You cannot make Griffith the savior without everyone around him playing their part.

If Zodd knew (which is why I presume he threw the sword to him during the fight with Boscogne), then surely Void (who has power and domain over Causality) would've known far ahead of time, before his birth, that Guts was going to be a master swordsman who would unknowingly aid Griffith in becoming a member of the Godhand.

From Zodd’s perspective, I would not say he threw his sword because he knew about the God Hand’s plan or because he wanted "causality to happen". He threw it because he was interested in Guts and wanted to see what he would amount to. He was also clearly bored, so if anything, he wanted more fights with Guts. He did as he liked, which is of course exactly what the IoE wants.

And yes, I presume Void followed Griffith’s threads of causality with great interest - and, through them, Guts’ as well.

Expanding on the idea of the Godhand's ability to exact their will in the physical realm, I'd like to discuss how far their influence extends among exceptional humans, such as Guts. We've seen how Conrad used plague rats to create mass hysteria, priming the citizens to accept Griffith as their saviour when he was reincarnated. Is it possible that the Godhand manifested itself in a similar manner at pivotal moments in Gut's early life to ensure that he would become the man he needed to be to help Griffith?

Guts, born from a corpse and found by Gambino immediately after - definitely Void's influence given his domain over Causality
Gambino's wife's death from the plague - Conrad, obviously, through targeted exposure
Donovan's lust towards Guts and Gambino's acceptance of payment for his rape - you can say Slan was involved here since her domain is lust and carnality. Ubik may have already been working his influence on Gambino long beforehand, since his domain is psychological warfare and the creation of mental constructs/hallucinations
Gambino's mental deterioration and sudden hate towards Guts, blaming him for his wife's death - Ubik again
Everything onward till the eclipse (especially Guts' presence during Griffith's friendship speech, which led to his fateful decision to leave) - Idea of Evil & Void

In my opinion, you are constructing this the wrong way around. The God Hand cannot interact with the physical world (before Fantasia anyways), and therefore cannot manifest themselves in order to actively do something. They have to use causality for that. Instead, they exist wherever large concentrations of negative human thoughts swirl.

So Conrad did not actively cause a plague; the plague emerged, and he exists within it, which is why the rats becoming his form works symbolically. Donovan’s act against Guts was not actively initiated by Slan, but she was there while it happened.

The best example here is Gambino: we know why he hated Guts. He had lost his leg, could no longer fight, drank heavily, and was deeply bitter. No Ubik was needed. You can, of course, argue that everything had been set up so that he would act this way.

 

[Ulysses]

I get that causality is the overarching mechanic that drives everything in the world of Berserk, as per the Idea of Evil's design, and that the Godhand is the will of the Idea of Evil.

Causality is the principle of cause and effect. It is NOT something that is IoE (we use term God of Abyss because 83 is not a part of canonical story) only. Its just a principle of cause and effect that applies in Berserk world. If you know cause, you can predict effect. For most part it is neutral in itself. "Bad Guys" are just more adapt at using that principle and have much more wider and longer vision of the world for effective manipulation of events.

I think this thread is best description of it : https://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?threads/causalitys-countercurrent.15946/#post-260183

What I want to know is, did the Godhand do the same to Guts, too, knowing he would be instrumental to Griffith's rise and fall and rise again?

It has not been stated and infact looking at Guts life, it seems to be opposite. Guts is remarkably lucky in surviving or cheating death. To the point SK mentioned it. It is due to him being born from a dead mother.

His survival during Eclipse was literal opposite of any plans of Godhand. His son's survival (due to Casca's survival) has caused a major flaw in Godhand's plan. Him impregnating Casca has been a chain of causality (case->effect) that has been a constant source of trouble for Godhand.

All of these events were significant turning points and shaped his worldview, leading him to train intensively and, unwittingly, to contribute to the Idea of Evil's design. This eventually culminated in his encounter with Griffith and acceptance into the Band of the Hawk. In accordance with the IoE's grand design, they would then go on to win numerous battles and rise in rank until the fateful moment that Guts made the decision to leave. Essentially, the Godhand set the stage in Guts' early life so that the IoE's grand design could begin to take firm hold of their destinies, putting them on a collision course toward the eclipse.

Godhand needed to shatter Griffith's dream to manipulate him in sacrificing his band of hawk. Guts became on critical cog in this mechanization. However, we do not have any evidence that Guts was brought up for this purpose and was made strong for this. Infact, Guts luck at surviving, as mentioned above, is a major source of headache for Godhand's plans. His son is an obvious flaw in Godhand's incarnation plan.

 

[BrandedInFlames]

Causality is the principle of cause and effect. It is NOT something that is IoE (we use term God of Abyss because 83 is not a part of canonical story) only. Its just a principle of cause and effect that applies in Berserk world. If you know cause, you can predict effect. For most part it is neutral in itself. "Bad Guys" are just more adapt at using that principle and have much more wider and longer vision of the world for effective manipulation of events.

I think this thread is best description of it : https://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?threads/causalitys-countercurrent.15946/#post-260183


It has not been stated and infact looking at Guts life, it seems to be opposite. Guts is remarkably lucky in surviving or cheating death. To the point SK mentioned it. It is due to him being born from a dead mother.

His survival during Eclipse was literal opposite of any plans of Godhand. His son's survival (due to Casca's survival) has caused a major flaw in Godhand's plan. Him impregnating Casca has been a chain of causality (case->effect) that has been a constant source of trouble for Godhand.

Godhand needed to shatter Griffith's dream to manipulate him in sacrificing his band of hawk. Guts became on critical cog in this mechanization. However, we do not have any evidence that Guts was brought up for this purpose and was made strong for this. Infact, Guts luck at surviving, as mentioned above, is a major source of headache for Godhand's plans. His son is an obvious flaw in Godhand's incarnation plan.

Thanks for the link. That was a very interesting read. However, it raises more questions. First, my understanding is that the countercurrent of causality only really came into play after the Skullknight saved Casca and Guts at the eclipse, correct? Prior to that, it wasn't an active force, so it's safe to say that everything before this event was in the grasp of the IoE and Godhand through the law of Causality. If that's the case, then doesn't that prove that Godhand were subtly manipulating events from Guts' childhood with the end goal of developing Guts' mindset and determination, leading him to train intensely and survive and endure to the point that he would eventually meet Griffith and aid him in his rise and eventual meeting with the Godhand? Let's not forget that the Godhand manifests in places where negative emotions circulate, as TheItCrow brought up. Guts being in a mercenary band would've frequently been in the vicinity of these "hot spots" of negative circulations due to their lifestyle and constant battles. If that's the case then the Godhand would've had ample opportunities to act as triggers and subtly push Guts in the direction that they wanted him to go

It has not been stated and infact looking at Guts life, it seems to be opposite. Guts is remarkably lucky in surviving or cheating death. To the point SK mentioned it. It is due to him being born from a dead mother.

His survival during Eclipse was literal opposite of any plans of Godhand. His son's survival (due to Casca's survival) has caused a major flaw in Godhand's plan. Him impregnating Casca has been a chain of causality (case->effect) that has been a constant source of trouble for Godhand.

I don't believe it was necessary to state it explicitly (similar to how it was implied that Judeau knew Puck, even though it was never explicitly stated). After all, Guts was predestined along with the rest of the Hawks to be sacrificed. As far as the Godhand were concerned, Guts had achieved his destiny and brought Griffith to where he needed to be to become a member, so there would've been no need for words. I imagine that if there's a real showdown, they may reveal this information to him if it turns out to be true, thus raising the stakes even more for Guts when he realizes they were the cause of all his misery and struggles since birth.

 

[Genseric]

You are misunderstanding causality. It is a principle of the universe. Even the godhand are subject to causality. If you choose griffith as your focal point, the entire universe was shaped for him to emerge. If you change your focal point to any other character, the same can be said. Causality implies that everything moves as one. A good example would be a wristwatch. Every gear moves and in totality you see a representation caused by the hidden movements. Every gear acts in reaction to another gear, if you remove one part, everything stops working. Every character in berserk, rather every particle in the universe is a gear. Now there is a first part necessary to make everything move in a watch, the battery or a windup thingy. Whatever that source is, is unknown. Some people think it is God, others say it is unknown until a few seconds after the big bang.

 

[Aazealh]

Hi everyone, longtime lurker here, and I finally decided to make an account after reading the manga again. I figured now was a good time, since I can understand the themes a little better than before.

Hi and welcome!

So anyway, my question is about causality and the idea of evil. I get that causality is the overarching mechanic that drives everything in the world of Berserk, as per the Idea of Evil's design, and that the Godhand is the will of the Idea of Evil. I also know that Griffith's entire life was orchestrated by Causality since birth to become a member of the Godhand, and that the Godhand aided in this endeavour throughout his life.

A few comments about what you're saying here:

First off, I wouldn't say that causality drives everything in the world of Berserk. It is one of the principles of the world, and the bad guys make use of it to achieve their ends. But there are other forces at play, like elementals or even time, and causality is not absolute.

Second, because episode 83 was removed from the story and is non-canon, we don't know much about the God of the Abyss. It is the master of the God Hand, and it does manipulate causality, but we don't quite know the extent to which it happens nor its exact limits. That is by design.

Third, you are correct that Griffith's life was orchestrated so that he would end up becoming a member of the God Hand, but again the degree to which it happened and the granularity with which it was done is not precisely known to us.

What I want to know is, did the Godhand do the same to Guts, too, knowing he would be instrumental to Griffith's rise and fall and rise again?

In short: yes. Everyone present during the Eclipse was entangled into their plan, to use the same kind of verbiage as Void. They were all meant to be there.

If Zodd knew (which is why I presume he threw the sword to him during the fight with Boscogne), then surely Void (who has power and domain over Causality) would've known far ahead of time, before his birth, that Guts was going to be a master swordsman who would unknowingly aid Griffith in becoming a member of the Godhand.

Zodd doesn't necessarily have any special knowledge. He too is influenced by causality. He acts for his own reasons, and those reasons are taken into account, but he's not like a special agent that gets dispatched to course-correct situations.

Did he throw his sword to Guts because he thought that was necessary for Griffith to become Femto? I don't think so. He threw it because he'd taken an interest in Guts and wanted to give him a chance. And if that helped Griffith get to where he was meant to be, fine. Same thing with finishing off Wyald. As he told him, both of them can do whatever they want, and I guess at that time he wanted the Eclipse to happen. Not to witness the birth of Femto, but so he could square off against the Skull Knight, who he was sure would be coming.

Void is a different matter entirely. It certainly feels like he does have special knowledge of what's going on, but I have to correct you: we do not know what his powers are, and whether he was "power and domain" over causality or not. It's certainly possible, but it hasn't been explicitly stated in the manga.

Finally, about Guts' role: how far ahead of time was his involvement taken into account? Hard to say. Was he meant to be specifically that strong because it would be necessary for the plan? Hard to say. Like I mentioned above, causality isn't absolute, and there's still a lot of uncertainty around. One easy proof for it is that both Guts and Casca survived the Eclipse. Some might say that maybe that was planned too, but I don't think so. It has no benefits for the God Hand, only disadvantages. And while they didn't much care so far in the story, it'd have eventually been their undoing.

We've seen how Conrad used plague rats to create mass hysteria

That did a bit more than create mass hysteria, it decimated Midland's population, which in turn weakened the country such that Ganishka could conquer it effortlessly.

priming the citizens to accept Griffith as their saviour when he was reincarnated.

Griffith was not reincarnated in volume 21. Rather, Femto, the ethereal being he had become, was incarnated (took a body of flesh), and his new corporeal body looked like the old Griffith. That's an important distinction.

Is it possible that the Godhand manifested itself in a similar manner at pivotal moments in Gut's early life to ensure that he would become the man he needed to be to help Griffith? I know these are just assumptions and that if we haven't seen visual manifestations, similar to plague rats forming Conrad, there is no solid evidence of this occurring in Guts' life. I would surmise, however, that this could also be a narrative decision by the author, as we, the readers, aren't meant to know the full extent of the Godhand's purpose, or even their role within the nexus of causality, world events, game changers, etc., at this point in time, even though we see them in the black swordsman arc.

I mean... If we didn't see it, then probably not. Or at least not with the focus you're putting on it. Each member of the God Hand has their own "domain" relating to mankind, but they're not necessarily consciously directing each event that goes on. You know what I mean? For example, the orgies that Theresia's mother took part in were clearly under Slan's purview, like those of the heretics in the cave below the Tower of Condemnation. But Slan didn't need to personally oversee it.

As the Skull Knight says in volume 18: they exist everywhere in this world, in any place with enough negative human thought, but a the same time they also exist nowhere because they have no corporeal body.

Nevertheless, here's a breakdown of what I think on which members may have been involved at significant points in Guts' life:

Guts, born from a corpse and found by Gambino immediately after - definitely Void's influence given his domain over Causality
Gambino's wife's death from the plague - Conrad, obviously, through targeted exposure
Donovan's lust towards Guts and Gambino's acceptance of payment for his rape - you can say Slan was involved here since her domain is lust and carnality. Ubik may have already been working his influence on Gambino long beforehand, since his domain is psychological warfare and the creation of mental constructs/hallucinations
Gambino's mental deterioration and sudden hate towards Guts, blaming him for his wife's death - Ubik again
Everything onward till the eclipse (especially Guts' presence during Griffith's friendship speech, which led to his fateful decision to leave) - Idea of Evil & Void

Following what I said above, I think you're being too literal and specific here. Could their influence have been felt in Guts' life? Sure, same as with any other human being. But I don't think Slan personally made Donovan into a pedophile so that Guts would be traumatized, nor that Conrad precisely targeted Shisu to die from the plague. And also, do keep in mind we don't really know what each member of the God Hand's exact "sefira" (domain they oversee) is.

The God Hand cannot interact with the physical world (before Fantasia anyways), and therefore cannot manifest themselves in order to actively do something. They have to use causality for that. Instead, they exist wherever large concentrations of negative human thoughts swirl.

So Conrad did not actively cause a plague; the plague emerged, and he exists within it, which is why the rats becoming his form works symbolically.

I think you're being too assertive here regarding how the God Hand can affect the world. Nowhere does it say it has to be exclusively through causality. Did Conrad actively cause a plague or not? The actual answer is that we don't know. Made he did.

That was a very interesting read. However, it raises more questions. First, my understanding is that the countercurrent of causality only really came into play after the Skullknight saved Casca and Guts at the eclipse, correct? Prior to that, it wasn't an active force, so it's safe to say that everything before this event was in the grasp of the IoE and Godhand through the law of Causality.

Allow me to answer, since I wrote that thread. I wouldn't call it an active force, it's more of a pattern. As mentioned above, causality is a principle of the world. The bad guys make use of it to achieve their goals, but they are not in full control of it. Besides that, you could say that the countercurrent I mentioned has been going on for a millennia, and that it started during Gaizeric's time.

After all, Guts was predestined along with the rest of the Hawks to be sacrificed.

It's interesting you'd say that. This "predestination" is precisely what purpose causality served in this context. To bring them all together in Griffith's life, up until the point where he'd sacrifice them. It's not a separate thing but rather what it's all about. The bad guys wanted it to occur, so they made it happen by manipulating the world using causality. It's in that sense that it was predetermined.

 

[TheItCrow]

I think you're being too assertive here regarding how the God Hand can affect the world. Nowhere does it say it has to be exclusively through causality. Did Conrad actively cause a plague or not? The actual answer is that we don't know. Made he did.

I should have put more ambiguity into my comment then. To me, the reasoning I laid out was based on my own assumptions paired with what Miura had established, but it's true that it's not 100% clear from the manga. But what's your personal take on it?

 

[Aazealh]

I should have put more ambiguity into my comment then. To me, the reasoning I laid out was based on my own assumptions paired with what Miura had established, but it's true that it's not 100% clear from the manga. But what's your personal take on it?

I think they each have their own powers that are not to be underestimated. That include things they can do when embodied (like Femto telekinetically sending Guts crashing into masonry) and other things they can do while disembodied.

We really don't have much information about the God Hand in general, so I can't tell you what these entail specifically or how they work and what their limits are. But for example, the dreams of the Falcon of Light that people received at various points are not a manifestation of causality, they're a different kind of phenomenon. Generally-speaking, things that relate to the human psyche at a collective level (large scale) seem to be what the God Hand oversees. Like why would a group of people choose violence instead of reason at a given point, this sort of thing. And that goes beyond "just" causality. It's about thoughts and feelings.

 

[brancolt]

I get that causality is the overarching mechanic that drives everything in the world of Berserk, as per the Idea of Evil's design, and that the Godhand is the will of the Idea of Evil

I wouldn't say it's by design. Think of causality more as a force of nature that makes it very easy for events to line up to a particular result. It is not an iron clad rule that binds people toward a certain fate, nor is it a script written by the God Hand. For example, if you become aware of how causality is operating in a certain moment, it is possible to opt out of it. When the Count refused to sacrifice his daughter, Void stated the "thread of fate has been severed". Meaning choice is still a factor and, despite causality, the Count chose a different path. He broke the path causality built for him.

I also know that Griffith's entire life was orchestrated by Causality since birth to become a member of the Godhand, and that the Godhand aided in this endeavour throughout his life. What I want to know is, did the Godhand do the same to Guts, too, knowing he would be instrumental to Griffith's rise and fall and rise again?

I wouldn't say that either. It's more as if, after receiving the Egg of the King, things would start to line up to take Griffith to the moment of his pivotal choice. Him choosing to sacrifice has so much weight because, despite it all, it is HIS prerogative. Causality doesn't force fate unto you. That's the tragedy. The God Hand didn't force anything. Despite all the evils they represent, those same evils come from mankind and their choices.