Watchmen

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
宮本 グリフィス said:
I find that the rejection of the squid only exemplifies exactly what makes it so effective. The alternative presented in the movie is just the more palatable cookie cutter solution everyone can readily accept within their comfort zone of what's cool or not. That's really what it comes down to.

Let's just say it's the solution for people too stupid to understand the story.
 
For those of you who like interdimensional squids congrats it just didn't do it for me. For me it would be more plausible for mankind to make peace with each other due to the existence of a common God like creature which threats our existence than well, a funny looking mad scientist squid from another dimension whose failed experiment to travel to earth to teach us all about the evils of squid cousine ended up in it's demise as well as other people. Still I am sorry, I know it is offensive for the community to like something better in a movie than in the initial written work.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
ELEKTRO said:
For those of you who like interdimensional squids congrats it just didn't do it for me. For me it would be more plausible for mankind to make peace with each other due to the existence of a common God like creature which threats our existence than well, a funny looking mad scientist squid from another dimension whose failed experiment to travel to earth to teach us all about the evils of squid cousine ended up in it's demise as well as other people. Still I am sorry, I know it is offensive for the community to like something better in a movie than in the initial written work.
Denial said:
Agreed. The squid was shoddy storytelling. That's what it really comes down to.

Aazealh said:
Let's just say it's the solution for people too stupid to understand the story.
 
Aazealh I think you're a bit out of line. The psychic squid is probably about one of the worst plot devices I've ever read/seen in my life. You might as well have Zeus come down from Olympos for all the sense it makes in the Watchmen universe. I don't think objecting to the author breaking the implicit/implied rules of his universe in the last couple of pages of his story is all that objectionable.

I never watched the movie either, by the way. I didn't enjoy Watchmen as a comic, I'm not sure why I should care if it was turned into a movie.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
You might as well have Zeus come down from Olympos for all the sense it makes in the Watchmen universe. I don't think objecting to the author breaking the implicit/implied rules of his universe in the last couple of pages of his story is all that objectionable.
Uhh, dude... did we read the same graphic novel? Are you maybe referring to this (http://blackmaps.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/watchmen-babies.jpg) instead of the actual Watchmen?

I'm sure you are aware that
the giant squid was fabricated on the island by Ozymandias and his team of artists and scientists, which was a giant portion of the story, revealed in snippets. It wasn't ACTUALLY an interdimensional squid-like entity with telepathic powers. It was a fake. A being created to be something beyond human comprehension in order to make humans realize the folly of their actions.
But, I feel stupid explaining this to you, since you clearly speak with authority on the subject, having read the graphic novel.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Aazealh I think you're a bit out of line. The psychic squid is probably about one of the worst plot devices I've ever read/seen in my life. You might as well have Zeus come down from Olympos for all the sense it makes in the Watchmen universe. I don't think objecting to the author breaking the implicit/implied rules of his universe in the last couple of pages of his story is all that objectionable.

Dude, I don't know how to say this... It's very clear from what you just said that you didn't understand the story of Watchmen at all. I could just quote myself again but frankly you've taken the fun out of it. I suggest you re-read the book or at least read this thread in its entirety (shit even a Wikipedia summary will do) because you're the one who's out of line here, and not just a bit. The squid is foreshadowed all along.

Denial said:
I never watched the movie either, by the way. I didn't enjoy Watchmen as a comic, I'm not sure why I should care if it was turned into a movie.

That raises the question of why you are posting in this thread in the first place. It's OK not to care man, don't worry.
 
I never said I objected to the squid's existence per se. Genetic manipulation to create a giant squid is entirely plausible. And teleportation is established throughout the story using Dr. Manhattan. Psychic powers aren't indicated as real until after we see the giant plot device used. And even if we accept the plausibility of a giant psychic squid, the reality of widespread psychic powers in humans across the world? Completely out of Alan Moore's kooky worldview.

And then we can take a look at how the humans/governments react to the giant squid, which is pretty much equally implausible. Of course we can just stuff it all under the rug by saying Ozymandias is an idiot, but for the supposed smartest man in the world to be that dumb...?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Psychic powers aren't indicated as real until after we see the giant plot device used.

You mean apart from the world-famous psychic who died and had his brain stolen that we learn about early on. The very brain that was used to create the squid's power. Face it man, no amount of backtracking or rationalization will get you out of this one.

Denial said:
And then we can take a look at how the humans/governments react to the giant squid, which is pretty much equally implausible.

I find it actually quite plausible, unlike the movie's alternate ending which is itself pretty ridiculous in that regard. The USA lose their ultimate advantage over the Soviet Union and the war ends because they're afraid of him now that he's freelance. Ugh.
 
Why would I assume a world-famous psychic had, you know, actual psychic powers? Someone could cut out Sylvia Brown's brain and I wouldn't bat an eye.

I am not aware of any evidence where these are actually presented as "Real" in the story, but I could simply not remember. If you can show me where they are established I'd be willing to change my opinion on things... But since the whole chain of implausible events derives from the ability of Ozymandias to blow people's minds using psychic powers and implanting the suggestion that this creature is some alien invader, it's kind of important.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Why would I assume a world-famous psychic had, you know, actual psychic powers? Someone could cut out Sylvia Brown's brain and I wouldn't bat an eye.

Alright now it's clear it's a waste of time talking to you as you're obviously not speaking in good faith here. And if you want to refresh yourself on the story you can just, you know, read it again. Seriously, good job on providing a perfect example to the post I made at the top of this page. But then again, coming from a guy that just wouldn't accept Schierke's hair was green, I shouldn't have expected anything less.
 
Talk about disingenuous. I say it's bad storytelling for the author to do what amounts to a 12:01 Bond villain unmasking himself after having been disguised as M the entire movie, and you tell me that it's perfectly fine since a halloween costume store got robbed at some point in the story.

But, what do I care? If you enjoy that kind of thing good on you.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Talk about disingenuous. I say it's bad storytelling for the author to do what amounts to a 12:01 Bond villain unmasking himself after having been disguised as M the entire movie, and you tell me that it's perfectly fine since a halloween costume store got robbed at some point in the story.

Disingenuous indeed, if you're talking about yourself. You come in the thread, not having even seen the movie but still making a pretty funny statement about what's considered worldwide to be one of the best comic books to ever come out of the USA. Then when we point out you don't know what you're talking about, you clumsily attempt to cover it up. Only to repeatedly miss the mark again. There's not much more to say. OK, you don't understand Watchmen. We get it.
 
Aazealh said:
You come in the thread, not having even seen the movie but still making a pretty funny statement about what's considered worldwide to be one of the best comic books to ever come out of the USA. Then when we point out you don't know what you're talking about, you clumsily attempt to cover it up disagree and insult you for having a different opinion, you back it up by discussing the actual events of the comic book and how the psychic squid scenario involves multiple layers of compromising everything we've learned about the Watchmen universe throughout the entire graphic novel.

I'd be more convinced if you guys weren't just slinging around ad populum / ad verecundiam and ad hominem.
 
Aazealh said:
Quote from: Aazealh on Today at 02:59:23 AM
Let's just say it's the solution for people too stupid to understand the story.

[I understood the reason for the Squid to be created, it is not like this graphic novel is Being and Time. I am speaking in the context of the plausability of world peace based on each event and how Dr Manhattan as the culprit just fit better for me. A god like creature for which there is physical evidence and documentation of his powers getting angry and popping a cap on strategic sites in the world? That is scary specially due to our already imprinted culture where God and religion play a big part.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
I'd be more convinced if you guys weren't just slinging around ad populum / ad verecundiam and ad hominem.

Hahaha, look at you, all out of things to say and still pathetically trying to get the last word. Yeah man, bring on all those imaginary fallacies if they help you feel better. =) My comment at the top of the page still applies.

Denial said:
Just for clarification -- Those spark-stick things that Puck has are chestnut burrs? Is this stated explicitly anywhere?

"Is it stated anywhere that there are psychics in Watchmen?!"

ELEKTRO said:
I understood the reason for the Squid to be created, it is not like this graphic novel is Being and Time. I am speaking in the context of the plausability of world peace based on each event and how Dr Manhattan as the culprit just fit better for me. A god like creature for which there is physical evidence and documentation of his powers getting angry and popping a cap on strategic sites in the world? That is scary specially due to our already imprinted culture where God and religion play a big part.

I disagree in the context of the story. If you want to know what I have to say about it you can read previous posts in the thread. Besides, this is scarier than any man. :beast:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
The squid does all that you're saying about the Manhattan ending and more, Elektro, only its impact can't be replaced by Dr. Manhattan for the very same reasons you're more comfortable with that ending. Also, nobody's mentioning here that one of the many levels Watchmen operates on is satire of comic books, the comic book industry, and yes, comic book readers like us. It's a shameful irony that aspect had to be removed in order to pander to the very people it was lampooning. I think I've said it before, but in a way, the movie is like self-fulfilling prophecy of everything Watchmen is against.
 
Aazealh said:
"Is it stated anywhere that there are psychics in Watchmen?!"

Aazealh... You're really disappointing me here.

No one in Watchmen demonstrates supernatural-style powers except for Dr. Manhattan. The entire graphic novel up until the last couple of pages pretty much establishes that position. So why would you assume that psychics in Watchmen are anything other than the charlatans they are in real life?

This isn't about accepting or not accepting some kind of unstated premise, it's about throwing out pretty much anything that's inconvenient from the whole preceding part of the story.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Denial said:
Aazealh... You're really disappointing me here.

Don't worry, disappointing the likes of you has never bothered me. Your pseudo-intellectual-with-a-superiority-complex act falls flat. At the end of the day it's clear to every person reading this thread that you're just bullshitting your way out of admitting you didn't even understand the gist of the story when you first posted. I know it must be hard on your ego but that's how it is.

Denial said:
No one in Watchmen demonstrates supernatural-style powers except for Dr. Manhattan.

Yeah because catching bullets with your bare hands is perfectly normal. People do it all the time. Listen, the whole premise of Watchmen is unrealistic. And the reader is supposed to assemble all the little things that are thrown at him over the course of the story, piecing them together to understand what Ozymandias has been plotting. I'm sorry if you can't get that. Sorry for you that is. Anyway, I believe we've reached a point where the discussion isn't going to go anywhere, so I suggest we just end this here. You don't like Watchmen, you think it's bad storytelling, fine. In a way that says it all.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Yeah, even with Manhattan, it's like trying to argue that he's the exception that proves the rule when, in actuality, the opposite is true. Anyway, as Aaz pointed out, most of them displayed extraordinary superhuman abilities throughout... the fact that anyone would interpret it otherwise, like reading it as a straight, realistic story or crime drama, only proves they didn't get it from the start.
 
Aazealh said:
Don't worry, disappointing the likes of you has never bothered me. Your pseudo-intellectual-with-a-superiority-complex act falls flat. At the end of the day it's clear to every person reading this thread that you're just bullshitting your way out of admitting you didn't even understand the gist of the story when you first posted. I know it must be hard on your ego but that's how it is.

You mean it's clear at the end of the day that I said, "I think the squid aspect of the story is crapulence," and you came back with the very convincing "You're stupid and didn't understand the story"? I think it's pretty obvious by this point that if you had an actual argument to make other than just slinging around insults and fallacies you would have made it. It's a shame too, because I'm certainly willing to revise my opinion on Watchmen, but you just don't care to actually engage with someone in a straightforward way.

Aazealh said:
Yeah because catching bullets with your bare hands is perfectly normal. People do it all the time. Listen, the whole premise of Watchmen is unrealistic. And the reader is supposed to assemble all the little things that are thrown at him over the course of the story, piecing them together to understand what Ozymandias has been plotting. I'm sorry if you can't get that. Sorry for you that is. Anyway, I believe we've reached a point where the discussion isn't going to go anywhere, so I suggest we just end this here. You don't like Watchmen, you think it's bad storytelling, fine. In a way that says it all.

I'll admit, the catching bullets with your hands thing is beyond normal. I had forgotten that scene, but it's really a non-sequitur when you're talking about a throwaway scene versus the climax / critical plot point of the entire story. There are absolutely elements throughout the story that are only semi-realistic, Teleportation obviously being one, and I give Moore plenty of leeway in suspending my disbelief. The question is how do those interact with the aspects which are understood [or, IMO intended to be understood if you want to get technical] as being realistic?

-People playing dress up cops and robbers? - Sure.
-Catching bullets with your hands? - Sure.
-Advanced Genetic Engineering capable of creating new species or custom-building brains? - The latter is a huge stretch, but lets go with it.
-Island and Arctic villain lairs? - Sure.
-Private Flying/submersible vehicles? - Sure.
-Killing off the hundreds/thousands of people who inevitably must have been involved in or stumbled upon your squid project? - A stretch, but lets go along.
-Psychic powers appearing in the climax but otherwise unestablished within the storyline? Bad Alan Moore. Lets continue.
-Countries on the brink of a nuclear war being talked down by Deonne Warwick and the Psychic Friends Network? - Um, no.

Personally I'd put Ozymandias' plan about 50/50 odds in ideal conditions, and this plan seems just as likely to instigate nuclear war as prevent it. You're just not going to get the US and USSR squaring off for total annihilation, and New York gets hit by a "biological weapon" and everyone suddenly accepts the theory of a bunch of crackpots come up with about aliens. Even if they wanted to this is just too much of a stretch on believable human behavior to accept without question.*
Which is of course why it's a terrible resolution from a story perspective. Watchmen's ending and the moral dilemma it poses are basically just a contrivance, because Ozymandias' plot probably should have failed in an honest assessment. Obviously it can't fail for thematic reasons, but there's the rub.

* Naturally we must accept that Ozymandias is just purely psychotic to ever believe this is a workable long term solution, much less a short term one.

Rhombaad said:
Haha, wow. :ganishka:

I look forward to pointing this thread out in 2014 and showing how very Simpson's Comic Book Guy Aazealh's behavior here has been.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Denial said:
I think it's pretty obvious by this point that if you had an actual argument to make other than just slinging around insults and fallacies you would have made it. It's a shame too, because I'm certainly willing to revise my opinion on Watchmen, but you just don't care to actually engage with someone in a straightforward way.

Well, you haven't addressed other posts which directly concern these issues, which tells me you're more concerned with having a personal contest with Aaz than in the greater dialogue. Anyway, while, admittedly, nobody in this thread is doing Watchmen justice, that's because what makes it so good isn't so easily explained. And I don't think anybody here really wants to take the time to write an original essay explaining Watchmen, as there's plenty out there already. So, if you're truly open-minded and curious, why don't you just read some different analyses of Watchmen, or better yet, read Watchmen again with an eye towards some of its deeper themes and details?

Denial said:
I'll admit, the catching bullets with your hands thing is beyond normal. I had forgotten that scene, but it's really a non-sequitur when you're talking about a throwaway scene versus the climax / critical plot point of the entire story.

Again, that's just one of many examples of established superhuman abilities and powers which aren't realistic in the least, including everything about Dr. Manhattan himself, which you've arbitrarily taken for granted as acceptable when it's even more ridiculous than that which you're complaining about (which again, makes me question your motivation here). Outlandishness is present in the tone of the entire story, which takes place in a bizarre alternate 1980's universe at that.

Denial said:
There are absolutely elements throughout the story that are only semi-realistic, Teleportation obviously being one, and I give Moore plenty of leeway in suspending my disbelief. The question is how do those interact with the aspects which are understood [or, IMO intended to be understood if you want to get technical] as being realistic?

-People playing dress up cops and robbers? - Sure.
-Catching bullets with your hands? - Sure.
-Advanced Genetic Engineering capable of creating new species or custom-building brains? - The latter is a huge stretch, but lets go with it.
-Island and Arctic villain lairs? - Sure.
-Private Flying/submersible vehicles? - Sure.
-Killing off the hundreds/thousands of people who inevitably must have been involved in or stumbled upon your squid project? - A stretch, but lets go along.
-Psychic powers appearing in the climax but otherwise unestablished within the storyline? Bad Alan Moore. Lets continue.
-Countries on the brink of a nuclear war being talked down by Deonne Warwick and the Psychic Friends Network? - Um, no.

What was all that supposed to prove? It makes the appearance of a case, but it's basically just your own yes/no commentary without actual support. Aaz or myself could easily just make the same bullet points and write, "Yeah, it's all good" next to them and it would be just as valid.

Denial said:
Personally I'd put Ozymandias' plan about 50/50 odds in ideal conditions, and this plan seems just as likely to instigate nuclear war as prevent it. You're just not going to get the US and USSR squaring off for total annihilation, and New York gets hit by a "biological weapon" and everyone suddenly accepts the theory of a bunch of crackpots come up with about aliens. Even if they wanted to this is just too much of a stretch on believable human behavior to accept without question.*
Which is of course why it's a terrible resolution from a story perspective. Watchmen's ending and the moral dilemma it poses are basically just a contrivance, because Ozymandias' plot probably should have failed in an honest assessment. Obviously it can't fail for thematic reasons, but there's the rub.

* Naturally we must accept that Ozymandias is just purely psychotic to ever believe this is a workable long term solution, much less a short term one.

All that proves is that Watchmen is a work of fiction, a genre in which realism has little to no bearing on literary credence. We're talking about a comic book fantasy that's essentially about comic book fantasies, I don't think you should have gone in expecting a documentary or a fact-based political thriller. I still think you don't get it, and that's not a shot at you or your intelligence, but another question to your motivation. I don't know that you really care, or even why you should. At least not why you should care more about the story and what it means, or could mean, than your own impression, which you've obviously given a lot of weight. Or, to put it another way, you seem to care more about being right than about whether or not you might be wrong. You could say the same to us, except the burden to change one's mind is on yourself, because you're not going to change ours, we already like Watchmen, that's why we discuss and defend it, but if you don't, then why do you care, beyond making your point for the sake of making it?

Which brings me to my final thought: *adjusts glasses and mic* something Aaz and I we're discussing earlier, why do people that don't get Watchmen (take that however you like) feel compelled to argue so about it? I mean, if you don't get it, or don't like it, and don't want to read it again, why are you strongly advocating a position on the specifics of it, whether it be about the movie, the squid, whatever, with people that obviously care enough to know it inside and out? It's not like we're just snooting it up here and casting pretensions on it; Alan Moore did that, it was indented as a work that, in the author's oh so humble opinion, was supposed to exemplify the storytelling strengths of the medium as opposed to books or film, and which would need to be re-read multiple times to be truly understood. Obviously, considering it's level of acclaim and scrutiny, it did not fail, and many have discovered that for themselves, but you wouldn't know it from reading this thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom