Good vs Evil? (It's never that simple)

krunkster

mankowodaisuki
Here's my proposal... there exists Two Essences in this Universe.
For simplicity sake I'm going to refer to them as Good and Evil because the term evil is actually a part of one of their names, but let it be known, I do not believe we can truly know at this point which side is actually good or evil, or if they aren't both one or the other (Well... Both good? I doubt it).
Evil has been revealed in the lost chapter 83; he was introduced as "The Idea of Evil" and from then on "Idea" as I will refer to him.
Good has also been introduced to us, but much more subtly. I propose that Good is what has been referred to as Fate.
Both of these Entities reside in the Abyss, controlling The World.

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Now the Origins of these Two:
Evil (The Idea says it best himself in Ch 83):
Griffith: Why did humans give birth to this will called God?
The Idea: Humans
The Idea: desired reasons
The Idea: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
The Idea: Reasons for life
The Idea: Reasons for death
The Idea: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
The Idea: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
Griffith: And that was
Griffith: God...
The Idea: And I produce those
The Idea: As it is what I've been brought to existence for
The Idea: I control destiny
Basically he was born from man's desire to know why bad things happen. "Reasons for life" above most likely is in a bad sense too, like "God why did you give me such a crappy life?!". He was created to justify Fate, and believes that he is the only true god, although he can not control fate completely.

Good:
I believe fate has always existed in this universe; Idea refers to this as "man's destiny" later, which existed before him.

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Now here's how they control the World:
Evil:
It created a soldier to be born into humanity, one who would united the people under one rule, someone who would delight in wars against all who opposed him, and eventually control the entire world. Often referred to as "The King of Death" this man is known in history books as King Gaseric, but today he exists as the Skeleton Knight. (You knew I was going there!)

Good:
Fate planted behelits in the world to bring select humans out of the Mortal realm, and make them serve Fate. Five special red behelits exist that promote to a God Hand who rule the Astral realm. Other behelits exist that promote to Apostles, which act as servants of the God Hand in the Mortal realm. These promotions are made through sacrifice, in an attempt to break the bonds the appointee has to the Mortal realm.

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Here's where we stand today:
The God Hand realized that Gaseric was attempting to take over the world and they intervened. This is the coming of a group angels that Princess talks about when she is telling Gaseric's story. It's hard to say what actually happened at this point. But we do know that a huge sacrifice was made, that the city was destroyed, Gaseric is assumed dead with no heir, and the tower of "rebirth" is built on that site in the years to follow. What we don't know is exactly how many angels came down! Here's the proof: Volume 10 Chapter 6 Pages 122 and 123. Judo says that he has heard the story too, and then he begins to speak, and tells that "God sent five Angels to punish King Gaseric" and that everything was destroyed. Then somebody says "Wasn't it four only?". I can't tell who said it, might be Caska, but it was probably Charlotte. Charlotte was told the story by a historian, not as some fairy tale (as Judo perceived it), and when you think about it four makes the most sense, because Femto has not yet been created. The Next unanswered question is who made the sacrifice (all the branded corpses and the bottom of the tower)? Most likely Gaseric, which means he must have used a behelit... possibly a red behelit in an attempt to gain more power in the Astral realm as one of the God Hand? Whatever he did, it changed him and eventually led to his current status as the Skull Knight. Also as a result of this conflict, the Skeleton Knight became an enemy of the God Hand and of Fate itself, which he attempts to undermine by devouring all the behelits he can find, thus reducing the power Fate has over the Mortal realm, a power that was stripped from King Gaseric in the events detailed above.

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Okay That's it.....
I really hope you guys can help fill in the holes above, or present your own speculations.
If you agree let me know, and if you disagree that's great too...
I put a lot of time, research, and thought into writing this,
but I apologize if some of it is rehashed old news, I'm new to this forum.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
krunkster said:
Here's my proposal... there exists Two Essences in this Universe.

Evil has been revealed in the lost chapter 83; he was introduced as "The Idea of Evil" and from then on "Idea" as I will refer to him.
Good has also been introduced to us, but much more subtly. I propose that Good is what has been referred to as Fate.
Both of these Entities reside in the Abyss, controlling The World.
God Hands are agents of Causality, but ... they're tied to THe Idea of Evil. After Griff makes the sacrifice, he goes on to the next "level" of the spirit world so to speak. Chapter 83: Idea gives Griff the power to take a new form. This transition is a direct connection from GH to Idea. Good and Evil are one, really? 8)

Good:
I believe fate has always existed in this universe; Idea refers to this as "man's destiny" later, which existed before him.
Is there really substantial evidence that man had a destiny before Idea? The dialogue Idea gives Griffith seems to write out this possibility: "reasons for pain, reasons for death" etc...

Good:
Fate planted Beherits in the world to bring select humans out of the Mortal realm, and make them serve Fate. Five special red Beherits exist that promote to a God Hand who rule the Astral realm. Other Beherits exist that promote to Apostles, which act as servants of the God Hand in the Mortal realm. These promotions are made through sacrifice, in an attempt to break the bonds the appointee has to the Mortal realm.
But we clearly see the Beherits rising from where Idea is talking to Griff in volume 13.

Here's where we stand today:
The God Hand realized that Gaseric was attempting to take over the world and they intervened.
But isn't it "do as you will?" Why would that goal be a problem with them?

and when you think about it four makes the most sense, because Femto has not yet been created.
This is a common misunderstanding. Volume 13: An apostle says that the Eclipse that occurs once every 216 years brings the birth of a new demon king (read: God Hand). Now count backwards 216 years, or just read this: http://www.skullknight.net/spec/time.htm
The Next unanswered question is who made the sacrifice (all the branded corpses and the bottom of the tower)? Most likely Gaseric, which means he must have used a Beherit... possibly a red Beherit in an attempt to gain more power in the Astral realm as one of the God Hand?
If you ask me, this is circumstantial evidence that it was Void that sacrificed the kingdom. Technically, the wise man called down angels to "free the kingdom from the evil king" (as told by mozgus, volume 18). Also, this is the perfect grudge for Skully to have against Void. I can't think of a better motive for him wanting Void out of the picture.
Okay That's it.....
I really hope you guys can help fill in the holes above, or present your own speculations.
If you agree let me know, and if you disagree that's great too...
I put a lot of time, research, and thought into writing this,
but I apologize if some of it is rehashed old news, I'm new to this forum.
Its a good theory, but there are a few gaping holes. You presume a lot in your conclusion, about the motive for Skully eating the beherits and whatnot, but presumptions are the heart of speculation so... theyre ok 8). The holes I found I listed above, but Im sure Olivier will want to rake over this one too.

Thanks for the speculation!

-Walter
 

krunkster

mankowodaisuki
God Hands are agents of fate, but ... they're tied to Idea. After Griff makes the sacrifice, he goes on to the next "level" so to speak. Chapter 83: Idea gives Griff the power to take a new form. This transition is a direct connection from GH to Idea. Good and Evil are one? 8)
:
But we clearly see the Beherits rising from where Idea is talking to Griff in volume 13.
I saw behelits falling while Griffith was ascending :p
Seriously though, Good and Evil, Fate and Idea... Probably two sides to one god.

Is there really substantial evidence that man had a destiny before Idea? The dialogue Idea gives Griffith seems to write out this possibility: "reasons for pain, reasons for death" etc...
This is the only evidence I see [Chapter 83 Page 10 (8311)]
Code:
           The Idea: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
           The Idea: Reasons for life
           The Idea: Reasons for death
           The Idea: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
           The Idea: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
           Griffith: And that was
           Griffith: God...
           The Idea: And I produce those
           The Idea: As it is what I've been brought to existence for
           The Idea: I control destiny
So it would seem Idea is producing reasons for a destiny that already existed...

But isn't it "do as you will?" Those in power dictate what is to occur. There are several examples of this: Zodd killing Wild ... Griffith being chosen to be reborn
Idea's motto is "do as you will", GH seems to meddle an awful lot.

Err.. This is a common misunderstanding. Volume 13: An apostle says that the shoku that occurs once every 216 years brings the birth of a new demon king (read: God Hand). Now count backwards 216 years, or just read this: http://www.skullknight.net/spec/time.htm
Facts: Charolette says the gaseric story is probably a thousand years old, shoku happens every 216 years, there are 5 God Hands and 216*5~=1000... (Tell me more if you know)
So quite possible your time line markers could be true, but there were 5/4 angels when Gaseric was attacked... So Gaseric being the first God Hand is a little too circumstancialy at this time IMO.

If you ask me, this is circumstantial evidence that it was Void that sacrificed the kingdom. Technically, the wise man called down angels to "free the kingdom from the evil king" (as told by mozgus, volume 18). Also, this is the perfect grudge for Skully to have against Void. I can't think of a better motive for him wanting Void out of the picture.
Don't shoot me.... BUT
Skully vs Void is way overrated IMO.
Basically the only evidence we have of this is Skully taking a stab at Void, and then them exchanging a subtle glare.
Why'd he stab at Void? = Void is apparently the leader.
Why'd they exchange glances? = If you tried to stab me I'd glare at you too.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
krunkster said:
I saw behelits falling while Griffith was ascending :p
Idea is talking to Griff (who is "sinking", not ascending) as the beherits are "rising" (this is used in the dialogue)
Seriously though, Good and Evil, Fate and Idea... Probably two sides to one god.
Causality is orchestrated by Idea, there isn't any "fate" 8)

So it would seem Idea is producing reasons for a destiny that already existed...
Im not so sure about that... The way it's phrased almost mockingly uses 'destiny'. Like, 'As if there was any direction before.' That's just my interpretation of it through many many readings though, I could be brainwashed...
Idea's motto is "do as you will", GH seems to meddle an awful lot.
First of all, it's not really Idea's motto 8) It's said by Idea, and requoted by Wild in volume 11. And besides that, I think you're misunderstanding the phrase. God Hand are just carrying our orders, more or less. They answer the call of the Beherit. The Apostles "do as they will" within their own unseen boundaries. They aren't driven to do things that would interrupt with causality, thanks to idea's macinations. No one can really supercede their destiny; they can just follow predetermined reactions; hence the term "causality" (a grand scheme of cause and effect)

Facts: Charolette says the gaseric story is probably a thousand years old
So is the rebirth ceremony.
shoku happens every 216 years, there are 5 God Hands and 216*5~=1000... (Tell me more if you know)
So quite possible your time line markers could be true, but there were 5/4 angels when Gaseric was attacked... So Gaseric being the first God Hand is a little too circumstancialy at this time IMO.
I have to admit... I'm already thoroughly confused with all this math... Let me see if I can simplify each of our perspectives:
Possibilities
(Walter) 4 old god hand attacked gaiseric: looked like 5 (or 4 from a perspective) angels attacking the city. Void was the 1st of the new batch.
(Krunkster) Gaiseric as the very first God Hand, Void took his place ???

Don't shoot me.... BUT
Skully vs Void is way overrated IMO.
Basically the only evidence we have of this is Skully taking a stab at Void, and then them exchanging a subtle glare.
Why'd he stab at Void? = Void is apparently the leader.
Why'd they exchange glances? = If you tried to stab me I'd glare at you too.
There isn't just one set of panels with glaring... There are several:
Skully breaks through the "sun". Void *instantly* looks up. Void opens up the "void" =), the blade passes through etc etc... If that's not a personal connection on some level, I honestly don't know what is. In purely empirical means, it could be read as: "he just hit the guy at the front of the line", but I think that's underestimating the way everything was paneled, and the general emotion you get from looking at this scene: vengeance.
 

krunkster

mankowodaisuki
I can't do the whole quote thing forever so I'll summarize:

First, the behelits descending thing was a joke about how people see some things differently... Bad attempt at using a :p I guess...

Next,
My whole opinion of Idea is that it's really full of itself.
I believe it to simply be a manifestation of humanity's desire to blame someone for what happens to them. Is he controlling everything? I'm not convinced... Maybe Idea is controlled by Fate too, and doesn't know.

Onto God Hand,
I don't know what to think about all this.
I was just trying to state the facts.
BTW I re-read Volume 18 Chapter 10 when Skully talks about the rebirth. And I've decided that Gaseric was born into this world from a God Hand during a rebirth ceremony 1000 years ago. So the Sacrifice couldn't have been his when Midland was attacked... but that means there were GH before Gaseric, and there's just no evidence of that yet.... So I'm just plain confused....

Now Skully vs Void,
Yeah, I still think it's overrated, but probably significant.
I'm actually starting to believe that Void is to Skull Knight as Guts is to Griffith!
But that's probably worth a whole'nother thread if I can untangle all the evidence from my rotting brain.
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
krunkster said:
Next,
My whole opinion of Idea is that it's really full of itself.
I believe it to simply be a manifestation of humanity's desire to blame someone for what happens to them. Is he controlling everything? I'm not convinced... Maybe Idea is controlled by Fate too, and doesn't know.

As I understand it (and I admit, my Berserk knowledge is a little shaky at times), Idea originally was a manifestation of humans wanting to blame something. Humans wanted to know "why." This desire gave rise to Idea, who started giving them these reasons. Idea is the one weaving the fate of humanity basically.

krunkster said:
Onto God Hand,
I don't know what to think about all this.
I was just trying to state the facts.
BTW I re-read Volume 18 Chapter 10 when Skully talks about the rebirth. And I've decided that Gaseric was born into this world from a God Hand during a rebirth ceremony 1000 years ago. So the Sacrifice couldn't have been his when Midland was attacked... but that means there were GH before Gaseric, and there's just no evidence of that yet.... So I'm just plain confused....

This stuff is still over my head. All these calculations and timelines are still kind of beyond me. But, I really have doubts about Gaiseric being a God Hand at any point.

krunkster said:
Now Skully vs Void,
Yeah, I still think it's overrated, but probably significant.
I'm actually starting to believe that Void is to Skull Knight as Guts is to Griffith!
But that's probably worth a whole'nother thread if I can untangle all the evidence from my rotting brain.

I think the Skully vs Void thing is significant too. I do believe that Skully is out for vengeance of some sort, just judging from what went on at the Eclipse and the fact that he seems to keep tabs on God Hand as much as he can.
 
D

Drachenfels

Guest
I don't think there is an entirely good over-being, like there is a entirely evil over-being(the idea).
The good is weak in the Berserk world, and the evil is dominating. That's why an entity like the Idea can come to existence, and why there are so few good "magic elfs" like Puck or SK. Mostly the humans have to help themselves with winning over the evil, while the evil is always empowered by nether-world/evil magic elf land. It's a fight men vs. the overwhelming destiny.
The Idea is not "the one god", it's just a manifestation of the negative energies, the evil of men. But it's not all-powerful, and neither does it control destiny/fate, which Guts proves.
The thing between Void and SK is overrated, he was simply the first god hand that was in front of sk's blade.
 

krunkster

mankowodaisuki
Drachenfels said:
The thing between Void and SK is overrated, he was simply the first god hand that was in front of sk's blade.

I'm going to go ahead and say that I used to think the same way but because I though he was just lashing out at the first guy in the room, but then I recently reread a section: Volume 13 Chapter 1 Page 6. SkullKnight clearly says that it is fated that he will strike down Void. This one line is proof enough that Skully vs Void is all too real.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
krunkster said:
I'm going to go ahead and say that I used to think the same way but because I though he was just lashing out at the first guy in the room, but then I recently reread a section: Volume 13 Chapter 1 Page 6. SkullKnight clearly says that it is fated that he will strike down Void. This one line is proof enough that Skully vs Void is all too real.
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=814

.....
 
T

temporary

Guest
Hi, I just like to comment and just ask a couple of questions.

Yeah, so Skully is Gaiseric (duh), and he was a Vandal right? It says that at around the time of his death, Huneric suceeded his throne? If that's the case, then what is now known as France, and most parts of Western Europe was Gaul right? Because that is what Gaiseric conquered? Anyhow, if Huneric succeeded, is he the one that triggered all the wars that would come about after, including the sacking of Rome, and the alliance of some Germanic Tribes to take over the byzantine areas of europe??? (Sorry, my history is sketchy).. But if that's true, then the time difference between Gaeiseric that we know in Berserk and Griffith's time of existence should be 100 years then, because the whole Berserk era seems to revolve around the dark ages??? Why is it then that the timeline indicates 1000 years? I'm just a bit confused about that. Now, Midland is definately france, but who would be Tudor? Would they be the spainish, the beat up romans, or the persians? If anyone is willing to give me a historical insight to this question of mine, it would be really helpful. Even more helpful would be anyone's attempt/speculation as to who Griffith may be in terms of previous kings/princes, etc that may have existed during that time.

Now, concerning the God hands, I think that the God Hand is nothing more than a palm that signifies the fate of mankind and the fingers which signify the God Hands are there to finger and mess things up. Jk. God Hand is fate I guess, and Skully and Gatsu seem to defy this fate. If "Idea" is God, then the God Hand is like the angels that do the biddings for Idea. By fate, humans that destine themself achieve the same goal as the "Idea" will have the God Hands in their favor as indicated by the many supernatural powers that are bestowed upon them such as Griffith. But maybe there is no such thing as fate at all, because Skully and Gatsu are against this idea of "Idea" and the idea has not been able to predict the fate of these 2 thus far.

Actually, I got something really twisted I'd like to say, if the "Idea" came abouts from man's desire to find an excuse or reason, then, this at the end is nothing more than a fight between the different "Ideas" that are conflicting such as Griffith's Dream and Gatsu' Dream to destroy it. Griffith's Idea may be telling him to strive to be the divine ruler of man, but Gatsu's Idea may be to not give a fuck. If Idea is created by man, then fate does not exist at all because man has the free will to choose their paths. It just depends on who's more willing to achieve his/her goal compared to others and to tackle down any obstacles that may come about. What do you guys think?
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
temporary said:
Hi, I just like to comment and just ask a couple of questions.

Yeah, so Skully is Gaiseric (duh), and he was a Vandal right? It says that at around the time of his death, Huneric suceeded his throne? If that's the case, then what is now known as France, and most parts of Western Europe was Gaul right? Because that is what Gaiseric conquered? Anyhow, if Huneric succeeded, is he the one that triggered all the wars that would come about after, including the sacking of Rome, and the alliance of some Germanic Tribes to take over the byzantine areas of europe??? (Sorry, my history is sketchy).. But if that's true, then the time difference between Gaeiseric that we know in Berserk and Griffith's time of existence should be 100 years then, because the whole Berserk era seems to revolve around the dark ages??? Why is it then that the timeline indicates 1000 years? I'm just a bit confused about that. Now, Midland is definately france, but who would be Tudor? Would they be the spainish, the beat up romans, or the persians? If anyone is willing to give me a historical insight to this question of mine, it would be really helpful. Even more helpful would be anyone's attempt/speculation as to who Griffith may be in terms of previous kings/princes, etc that may have existed during that time.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to try and compare Berserk to real history, at least not in detail. It's obvious Miura took a lot of his ideas from European history, but I don't think it was that exact.

Now, concerning the God hands, I think that the God Hand is nothing more than a palm that signifies the fate of mankind and the fingers which signify the God Hands are there to finger and mess things up. Jk. God Hand is fate I guess, and Skully and Gatsu seem to defy this fate. If "Idea" is God, then the God Hand is like the angels that do the biddings for Idea. By fate, humans that destine themself achieve the same goal as the "Idea" will have the God Hands in their favor as indicated by the many supernatural powers that are bestowed upon them such as Griffith. But maybe there is no such thing as fate at all, because Skully and Gatsu are against this idea of "Idea" and the idea has not been able to predict the fate of these 2 thus far.

The God Hand do weave man's destiny/fate, but it is basically out of the person's hands. A person can't make their goals the same as Idea's (at least not without a lot of conscious knowledge). Idea pretty much seems to decide their fate for them (before they're even born), even going so far as orchestrating bloodlines and surroundings.

Pg. 12-13, Chapter 83, Vol. 13

Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past.

By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness and merging blood with blood, I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are.

To pave the way for the times you would be born in, I manipulated history and created an appropriate context for you.

All the encounters you have made so far were a part of the destiny that led you here as well.


But honestly, I'm still not quite sure how Guts or Skully fit into all of this destiny stuff. :-\

Actually, I got something really twisted I'd like to say, if the "Idea" came abouts from man's desire to find an excuse or reason, then, this at the end is nothing more than a fight between the different "Ideas" that are conflicting such as Griffith's Dream and Gatsu' Dream to destroy it. Griffith's Idea may be telling him to strive to be the divine ruler of man, but Gatsu's Idea may be to not give a fuck. If Idea is created by man, then fate does not exist at all because man has the free will to choose their paths. It just depends on who's more willing to achieve his/her goal compared to others and to tackle down any obstacles that may come about. What do you guys think?

It's very possible (and most likely) that man still technically has the freedom to choose their own fate. That's pretty much how Guts has managed to survive this long. But I think it takes an extraordinary type of person to overcome Idea's control and it's hard to tell just what kind of price you might pay for it (sanity, life, etc.). Besides, what that individual sees as choosing their own fate may actually be something already be planned out by Idea, unbeknownst to the person. Idea itself doesn't seem to be a manifestation of man's desire for "reasons" anymore, it seems to be an independent entity by now. A very powerful one at that.
 
T

temporary

Guest
Maybe that "Ideal" that seems to predominate so ever more now is due to Griffith's "Ideal" of the world growing in power? Is it an imbalance between one ideal to another? You see, I don't really see the Ideal as an entity, I see it more as an abstract metaphor to the level of commitment and support for a particular Ideal. In Berserk, Griffith's Ideal to become the divine ruler outpowers the minority ideal that shared by Skully and Gatsu.

Concerning the fate issue. Perhaps fate is nothing more than the history of one's destiny taking place. Fate seems to always come after the fact, just as the Ideal comes about after the actions of man. Fate cannot reveal itself unless one determines himself to a particular action or intention. Maybe I'm thinking too hard, but I think that the Berserk world concerns the clash of 2 heroes' destinies, Griffith and Gatsu. However, Griffith's destiny tends to rely on others and events that revolve around him whereas Gatsu relies only in himself and is not affected by the dependent variables that create existance such as space and time, so at the end, there is only one person that is truly in control of his own destiny, and that would be Gatsu. Like Gatsu mentioned about his Spark of his life as being his passion to retrieve his life from battle, I believe that the whole Berserk epic relies heavily on Gatsu as being a variable in manipulating the outcome of other characters in his world. Griffith is a constant whereas Gatsu is a variable, so at the end, the outcome is dependant on Gatsu. Griffith tries very hard to be a variable, but not knowing that he himself has fallen prey to fate because of his over-reliance on fate to determine his destiny. For instance, Griffith's actions are always a result of a certain event, e.g. He recruited Gatsu after the fact that Gatsu could fight. Gatsu on the other hand, for no particular reason, out of the blue, does $hit that really confuses everyone. The reason for this is that Gatsu is a character without intention or motive. He is a man without morals. What we perceive as being good or bad can be the total opposite for another individual or group. Griffith's ideals and actions may be perceived as being bad, but if you thought about other war heroes, kings, conquerers, etc, their ideal was deemed good because they had the collective race supporting them. If that is the case, that is probably why Miura's world does not have a Good or Bad God(s), rather, relies on intention of one's actions. Perhaps his moral is to distinguish that if a person labels his actions with a particular action, he/she is doomed to affect others in a positve or negative way which creates an imbalance in the energies of the universe. If that is the case, existence is due to intention, the intentions of ambition and power. Gatsu on the other hand, is a symbolism of non-existence, or, the purest form of the oversoul, he is neither affected by others, nor does he intend to influence others. Gatsu I believe is the true God to the god hands, because the god hands are pawns to Gatsu's actions. What do you guys think?
 
T

temporary

Guest
But then again, according to Buddahism, I could say the opposite of what I just said and it would be true :D
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
temporary said:
Maybe that "Ideal" that seems to predominate so ever more now is due to Griffith's "Ideal" of the world growing in power? Is it an imbalance between one ideal to another? You see, I don't really see the Ideal as an entity, I see it more as an abstract metaphor to the level of commitment and support for a particular Ideal. In Berserk, Griffith's Ideal to become the divine ruler outpowers the minority ideal that shared by Skully and Gatsu.

I'm not exactly sure what Idea is, since it said itself in the "lost chapter" that it was only showing "part of itself." There's still a lot of unknowns about Idea, but I tend to lean more towards it being an entity.

Concerning the fate issue. Perhaps fate is nothing more than the history of one's destiny taking place. Fate seems to always come after the fact, just as the Ideal comes about after the actions of man. Fate cannot reveal itself unless one determines himself to a particular action or intention. Maybe I'm thinking too hard, but I think that the Berserk world concerns the clash of 2 heroes' destinies, Griffith and Gatsu. However, Griffith's destiny tends to rely on others and events that revolve around him whereas Gatsu relies only in himself and is not affected by the dependent variables that create existance such as space and time, so at the end, there is only one person that is truly in control of his own destiny, and that would be Gatsu. Like Gatsu mentioned about his Spark of his life as being his passion to retrieve his life from battle, I believe that the whole Berserk epic relies heavily on Gatsu as being a variable in manipulating the outcome of other characters in his world. Griffith is a constant whereas Gatsu is a variable, so at the end, the outcome is dependant on Gatsu. Griffith tries very hard to be a variable, but not knowing that he himself has fallen prey to fate because of his over-reliance on fate to determine his destiny. For instance, Griffith's actions are always a result of a certain event, e.g. He recruited Gatsu after the fact that Gatsu could fight. Gatsu on the other hand, for no particular reason, out of the blue, does $hit that really confuses everyone. The reason for this is that Gatsu is a character without intention or motive. He is a man without morals. What we perceive as being good or bad can be the total opposite for another individual or group. Griffith's ideals and actions may be perceived as being bad, but if you thought about other war heroes, kings, conquerers, etc, their ideal was deemed good because they had the collective race supporting them. If that is the case, that is probably why Miura's world does not have a Good or Bad God(s), rather, relies on intention of one's actions. Perhaps his moral is to distinguish that if a person labels his actions with a particular action, he/she is doomed to affect others in a positve or negative way which creates an imbalance in the energies of the universe. If that is the case, existence is due to intention, the intentions of ambition and power. Gatsu on the other hand, is a symbolism of non-existence, or, the purest form of the oversoul, he is neither affected by others, nor does he intend to influence others. Gatsu I believe is the true God to the god hands, because the god hands are pawns to Gatsu's actions. What do you guys think?

Maybe Griffith and Guts are symbolic of a greater battle. Guts might represent free will, since by all notions of destiny or fate, he should be dead (many times over). He always does things on his own terms, like you said. Griffith could represent the idea of fate/destiny, since it has been the main guiding force of the events in his life. Maybe their own fight represents the world's struggle to shake off Idea, God Hand, and all fate.

Then again, I could just be babbling. ;D
 

Lliugusamui

around the corner
about the history aspect : well first kimchan is right saying berserk isn't a copy of history but another universe inspired by it
nevertheless, gaiseric's time and griffith's time don't seem to dwell both in dark age ; haven't you seen that people of Midland do wear plates and have gunpowder ?( it'd be more like end of middle age i think, even if a try to precise is useless since berserk is _sthg else_)
well anyway, most of people say Tudor is related to England ( about the "Tudor dynasty", you know ? ;) )
about griffith, well i believe the last prince of wales during 13th century was called Llewellyn ap Gruffydd ( pronounce grifith, with about a rolled "r" and "th" as in "that", whatever ... )
 
T

temporary

Guest
I believe Miura is introducing the way of Buddha into a Medival setting. Upon research concerning the various states of Buddha, it consists of 10 realms:

At the top is Buddha and the scale descends as follows: Bodhisattva (an enlightened being destined to be a Buddha, but purposely remaining on earth to teach others), Pratyeka Buddha (a Buddha for himself), Sravka (direct disciple of Buddha), heavenly beings (superhuman [angels?]), human beings, Asura (fighting spirits), beasts, Preta (hungry ghosts), and depraved men (hellish beings).

I believe that at the top of the chain, is Gatsu, the true Buddha that remains on earth, because he is an action with no intention which in essence, is the true Buddha, to be present without craving or wanting to be present. His soul is pure. Griffith, would be in the "Depraved men" category, along with the God hands, for his presence is completely driven by the "crave" to realize his ambitions. He is the unpurest of all the characters. Zodd and Skullknight, are perhaps in the Asura/Preta, for they realize their prescence in in existence, but have attachment to a particular cause (zodd protects Griffith and the God Hands, SkullKnight wanders around eating behelits). In the rest of the world, the human beings, belong in the human being category.

Now, do not take my interpretation of the way of Buddha wrong, but these "realms" may not by physical representations of what there actually is. A human such as Gatsu is still physically a human being, but his existance is that of Buddha, such as Griffith is a depraved man. These realms are symoblic amplifications of the true meaning on what a man is here on earth, and as Buddha suggests, at the top are those that grasp existence and do not influence there own or others existence. In order to achieve this state of enlightment, one must realize pain and suffering (This has Gatsu' name written all over it); secondly, one must not crave to improve or influence it (This has Gatsu' name written all over it); and lastly, one must take each day at a time in hopes to find the inner peace within ones self (This has Gatsu' name written all over it). Gatsu is the state of being the ultimate being. If my speculations are correct, the end of Berserk will have Gatsu ascending to the heavens, or, to the oversoul and there after, will explode/implode and become matter; while Griffith, will be overwhelmed by this presence, along with the God Hands, and will be sucked into this vortex of eternal balance, and perish. In other words, this IS NOT A BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. The reason for this is that if one craves to DO GOOD, will be tainted to crave to do place an intention on an action. If one craves to DO EVIL, will be tainted to crave to do place an intention on an action. Therefore, one must have a clear tranquil mind, unbiased of human emotions and afflictions in order to achieve the highest state of well-being. That man's name is Gatsu because as Buddah explains, Buddahism is not a religious faith where you bow down to a God, rather, it is the self-actualization that one is responsible for his own destiny/fate, and that one fights and realizes that he has survived solely because of him/herself. I will attempt not to infuriate any other religions here, but if you analyze carefully, everyone in Berserk with the exception of Gatsu believes in a divine ruler/God that judges and punishes all. Using the name of dominant religions of that historical era and area, such as Christainity and Moslem, wars took place in the name of a God. But as Gatsu explains, he weilds his sword for NOBODY, except for HIMSELF.

In conclusion, I speculate and truly am intrigued by how Miura has been able to incorporate the hidden Buddist beliefs into Berserk. It may not be noticeable at first, but if one studies carefully the big picture, it truly makes sense now. Unfortunately, there are still spurts of inconsistency in Gatsu character (e.g. his urge to survive and take out Griffith after the first eclipse), however, these matters are not due to Gatsu' ambition or crave to seek revenge, rather, it is the instinctual cause and effect of being beat to pulp and the need to survive in an imbalanced world.

Comments are welcome, do not bash, if you do, bash politely, thank you.
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
My grasp of Buddhism is basic at best, so forgive any mistakes. ^_^;;

Now, do not take my interpretation of the way of Buddha wrong, but these "realms" may not by physical representations of what there actually is. A human such as Gatsu is still physically a human being, but his existance is that of Buddha, such as Griffith is a depraved man. These realms are symoblic amplifications of the true meaning on what a man is here on earth, and as Buddha suggests, at the top are those that grasp existence and do not influence there own or others existence. In order to achieve this state of enlightment, one must realize pain and suffering (This has Gatsu' name written all over it); secondly, one must not crave to improve or influence it (This has Gatsu' name written all over it); and lastly, one must take each day at a time in hopes to find the inner peace within ones self (This has Gatsu' name written all over it). Gatsu is the state of being the ultimate being.

I really don't think Guts has reached that state of being yet. He still consistently "craves." He wants revenge on Griffith, I'm sure he wants all those evil spirits and ghosts to leave him be, and then of course, he wants to cure Casca's insanity and bring her back. He has the "pain & suffering" and "search for inner peace" parts down, but he does still want and crave things.

If my speculations are correct, the end of Berserk will have Gatsu ascending to the heavens, or, to the oversoul and there after, will explode/implode and become matter; while Griffith, will be overwhelmed by this presence, along with the God Hands, and will be sucked into this vortex of eternal balance, and perish. In other words, this IS NOT A BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. The reason for this is that if one craves to DO GOOD, will be tainted to crave to do place an intention on an action. If one craves to DO EVIL, will be tainted to crave to do place an intention on an action. Therefore, one must have a clear tranquil mind, unbiased of human emotions and afflictions in order to achieve the highest state of well-being.

I really doubt Guts will ascend to heaven, especially since technically he's already damned to hell (because of the brand). And I'm not even sure where the "eternal balance" would fit in. ??? But who knows how it will end? Miura's always got twists in store.

That man's name is Gatsu because as Buddah explains, Buddahism is not a religious faith where you bow down to a God, rather, it is the self-actualization that one is responsible for his own destiny/fate, and that one fights and realizes that he has survived solely because of him/herself. I will attempt not to infuriate any other religions here, but if you analyze carefully, everyone in Berserk with the exception of Gatsu believes in a divine ruler/God that judges and punishes all. Using the name of dominant religions of that historical era and area, such as Christainity and Moslem, wars took place in the name of a God. But as Gatsu explains, he weilds his sword for NOBODY, except for HIMSELF.

I agree that Guts is, overall, independent, but he isn't completely. He wields his sword to get closer to Griffith and to protect Casca. So in a way, his actions are slowly becoming less and less for himself.

In conclusion, I speculate and truly am intrigued by how Miura has been able to incorporate the hidden Buddist beliefs into Berserk. It may not be noticeable at first, but if one studies carefully the big picture, it truly makes sense now. Unfortunately, there are still spurts of inconsistency in Gatsu character (e.g. his urge to survive and take out Griffith after the first eclipse), however, these matters are not due to Gatsu' ambition or crave to seek revenge, rather, it is the instinctual cause and effect of being beat to pulp and the need to survive in an imbalanced world.

Comments are welcome, do not bash, if you do, bash politely, thank you.

This is definitely interesting, but it just seems like maybe you're reading into everything a little too much. I really don't think Miura is putting that much of the Buddhist belief in Berserk. Obviously, living in Japan, it would be nearly impossible for him to exclude that influence completely, but I don't believe it's as strong as you think.
 
T

temporary

Guest
Well said, it is unfortunate that Gatsu falls victim to the crave after the first eclipse, but perhaps, there's a reason why Gatsu consistently has to make a choice to take on Griffith or Caska. Thus far, he has to make a choice, but at the end, I think he might just scrap the whole idea and who knows, kill himself? lol ;) Anyhow, just to correct my bad english, what I meant by Gatsu ascending to the heavens was much more along the lines of say flying up into the sky in some ritual, i dunno, maybe he does a big kamehamaha or something, haha ;) But honestly, I don't think the sword is much of a crave or tool for craving something. Back in those days, the sword was a symbolic extension of ones self. And just by looking at Gatsu' sword, it symbolises hardship, surreal and self-perserverance.
 

kimchan

"Should I be overcome by the vapors?
UrashimaSenpai said:
Well said, it is unfortunate that Gatsu falls victim to the crave after the first eclipse, but perhaps, there's a reason why Gatsu consistently has to make a choice to take on Griffith or Caska. Thus far, he has to make a choice, but at the end, I think he might just scrap the whole idea and who knows, kill himself? lol ;)

I think Guts is beginning to get tired of fighting all the time. I'm pretty sure in Volume 22, he was just going to stop and stay with Casca at Godo's mine. But then of course Griffith and Zodd were there and destroyed the mine, so now it's off to Elfheim! Guts' desire for revenge does seem to be fading.

Anyhow, just to correct my bad english, what I meant by Gatsu ascending to the heavens was much more along the lines of say flying up into the sky in some ritual, i dunno, maybe he does a big kamehamaha or something, haha ;) But honestly, I don't think the sword is much of a crave or tool for craving something. Back in those days, the sword was a symbolic extension of ones self. And just by looking at Gatsu' sword, it symbolises hardship, surreal and self-perserverance.

Ah, I see (I took it literally ^^;;). I've got no idea how it will all end, but I'm sure Miura will make it good. ;)

Interesting, I wonder, if you think of the Dragonslayer as an extension of Guts' self, what that would mean about him? Everybody always says they sense something strange about that sword.
 
T

temporary

Guest
As I had suggested before, Gatsu' sword is colossus. Have any of you read Beowulf before? Its an Old English piece translated from some german folklore. Anyhow, heroes of that era usually had real big swords that would only be wieldable by "giants". Beowulf had a sword that was similar to Gatsu, and he used it to slay a Wrym and a dragon. Obviously, such a sword is unreal to "man" because an ordinary man cannot use it, mind u, lift it. However, the hero, usually of great power and strength is able to do so. This relationship between a giant sword and a hero is very important, and this is my perspective as to how the whole thing works:

1) A giant sword is unreal.
2) A man that wields a giant sword is unreal.
3) A man that wields a giant sword forges his own destiny.
4) A man that relies on a weapon that can be easily utilized is not a hero because there is no conflict in using an easily bearable arms. This is an indication of cowardness and weakness and dependance.
5) A man that wields a giant sword is consistently pursues absolute nothing. Why do I say that? What is the point for instance for a hero that can say use a king's sword and can slay his opponents with ease want to wield an even heavier sword that will decrease his mobility and technique? The answer is that there is no answer, which indicates a Buddahist clear mind approach.

So, taking this into consideration, the sword can tell you a lot about the 2 main characters, Gatsu and Griffith. Griffith relies on his sabre and technique. The slender sword breaks with ease, but it gets its job done when used to strike, but its defence is weak. Gatsu on the other hand, with the dragon slayer, is able to resist hardship, and, indicates a more defensive personality. This is important because Gatsu' never acts, rather, he reacts, which shows his self-protecting nature. The sword is intrigued more as Gatsu continually asks Goddo to make it thicker with fresh iron. This indicates Gatsu never-ending pursuit for the infinite possibilies of life. Gatsu has no limit, whereas Griffith is limited. Hope I make sense ;)
 

All_4_Yume

Yume Chaser
UrashimaSenpai said:
Well said, it is unfortunate that Gatsu falls victim to the crave after the first eclipse, but perhaps, there's a reason why Gatsu consistently has to make a choice to take on Griffith or Caska. Thus far, he has to make a choice, but at the end, I think he might just scrap the whole idea and who knows, kill himself? lol ;) Anyhow, just to correct my bad english, what I meant by Gatsu ascending to the heavens was much more along the lines of say flying up into the sky in some ritual, i dunno, maybe he does a big kamehamaha or something, haha ;) But honestly, I don't think the sword is much of a crave or tool for craving something. Back in those days, the sword was a symbolic extension of ones self. And just by looking at Gatsu' sword, it symbolises hardship, surreal and self-perserverance.

Hmph...and I thought Guts was overcompensating for his small penis. j/k ;)
 
T

temporary

Guest
Actually, I'd take it that Gatsu got a big 0==8, and that I may add that it does piercing damage. Gatsu is all about PENETRATION.
 
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